your reply is off-topic and you give no support for your position.
Have you looked at the recent consumer reports review on this car? Are you aware that this car has better than average reliability? Or, that for the money, it's considered by most reviewers as a lot of car for the money? Are you familiar with the warrantee?
I looked at Terry's profile and he obviously knows more about cars than me. I find consumer reports good for things I know little about (cars, refrigerators, ovens, etc) but not all that useful for things that I know a lot about (audio, wine, computers, etc).
I'm guessing Terry finds CR as useful for cars as I do for computers. Still, it would be good to hear his opinion on this car.
I stick by my original post...if you;re going to knock a car, you should give your reasons.
... **Have you looked at the recent consumer reports review on this car? Are you aware that this car has better than average reliability?** .. =====================
It's funny you brought that up ..
Yep I try to read all of the reports out there, IntelliChoice, JD Powers, Consumers, Guns and Ammo, Better Homes and Garden and Buck Rogers in the 21st century .....
Just because someone prints something, that doesn't necessarily make it true or accurate ~ just ask CBS news or the Hearst family .... some reports are 80% accurate, some are 20% accurate and some can fall in the middle at 50%, it all depends on the vehicle and who's writing the report ...
What gives a vehicle a "true test" of reliability isn't a test track or someone driving "one" for 2,0/3,000 miles and printing a report .. but two things do - and thats time and how many are in the market in the cold winters of Michigan or the hot summers of Alabama under all kinds of road conditions with lots and lots of miles .. is Hyundai building a better vehicle than they did 5/6 years ago, of course they are, anything is better than -0- ..
But in todays market there is TONS of great SUV's out there and the vast market of those have 125/150/170k on them, but they might get rated average or less, which I will never understand (actually I do) .... to draw a comparasion here, I just spent a few days at the Miami boat show and the biggest selling point for the Sea Ray dealers was they were rated #1 by JD Powers - again .. if thats the case, then why are the marina's filled with cracked hulls, spider-webbing and CM problems .... sometimes, if you don't know what to expect, then you don't know what a serious problem is - but they do have a good warranty ..l.o.l...
But, I digress .... spend the extra 20 bucks a month and find something with better reliabilty, better resale and little or no headaches ....................
thanks for your reply. I had thought that CR reliability is totally based on user survey which, given a large enough sample size, should be pretty accurate. If that's not the case, your point is taken.
I couldn't agree with you more on your other points about the POV of the reviewer(S) influencing results.
For me, it came down to forrester, crv or santa fe (has to be awd where we live). I was actually at the subaru dealer, calling my wife about color, when she decided to inform me that she really didn't want another subaru (we had an outback).
Went back and forth on santa fe and crv. It was very clear that the crv has better resale and reliability but, with our 3 kids getting bigger, decided on the santa fe.
Giving it some more thought now...thanks for your help (and gentle reply).
I think that CR is a good and largely unbiased source.. as far as what they do with the data.
The data come form their readers, which as a group probably ARE biased. But so what, it's the biggest sample out there, and whenever I know of a big problem with a model and go looking for it, I find it in the data... Toyota V6 headgaskets in 95, Chrysler minivan transmissions, that sorta thing.
The biggest problem with the CR data is the self-selection in the sample.. iow, the data don't come from the broad market, but from people who answer the survey. These are the kind of people organized enough to know where their mail is, and they probably pay their bills on time, and they may even store their socks in pairs. AND change their oil, and stuff.
So when these people fill out the survey, any maintenance-related problem doesn't show up. The headgasket does, but not the Toyota V6 "sludge problem". Out in the world of soccer moms who change the oil every other christmas, it happens, and you have to watch out a little...
I can hardly think of a sample more disparate than CR survey-filler-outers and the average Kiundai customer. That is how I explain the two observations: Above-average reliability data, and reports from Terry about entire lanes filled with "MBB/NW" (manuf. buyback, no warranty).
I think Hyundai builds "ok" cars, but I wouldn't buy one at this time. It would be interesting to see how Mitsubishi stacks up; they've done themselves no favors with the 0/0/0 loans they've been pushing... I bet their clientele is also stacked towards the clueless...
Meaning no disrespect to Hyundai or Mitsu owners... it's not that buying one of those makes you an idiot, it's just that stupid people are more likely to fall for stunts like 0/0/0 or 5-year Hyundai leases with the 100k warranty.
That's how I reconcile the differences in reports on these cars.
It's worth pointing out that the ratings are self-fulfilling for a guy like me. Since I read CR, I'm the kinda guy that does all the stuff you talk about (change oil, pair socks...) so the ratings should be pretty accurate for me.
that's just it. These cars we speak of, specifically, in their real world performance and reliability, are in direct conflict with their alleged CR survey results.
that's a little different spin...if we're at the point that we have people here with lots and lots of real, professional experience challenging the CR survey... that's kinda scary and hard to reconcile.
I take good care of my cars, and I am amazed how closely my personal experiences mirror the CR reports. And, I do fill out the survey each year. So, their results are pretty useful to a guy like me. I can see how they would fall short for other people.
Sometimes when people buy things that are "recommended" or have a great reputation, the fact they had repairs are forgotten because they bragged about what a great machine that bought and it would make them look as though they made a bad choice.
A few years back I sold appliances and the Maytag customers I sold to always told me that Maytags are bulletproof, indestructable, etc. Now they may have had it 6 years and put 2 motors and 3 pumps in it, but, ya know, other than that it ran like a fine swiss watch.
yes, give it thought. the santa fe is no bigger than the crv, so i dont get the "kids are growing" reason.
in 12 months, the crv will be worth twice (yes, twice) what a santa fe will be worth.
i dont see how, with the MILES of disparity from hyundai to honda, anyone could come to another conclusion.
BTW...if you are leaning the hyundai's way because of the warranty, then you are the EXACT guinea pig they want. ask yourself this question...what would happen if their warranty were the same as honda's?
...what are you getting with the Santa Fe that you can't get w/ a Escape, CRV, etc. Are you going to keep it the 10 year duration of the warranty? Heck, if your gonna keep it that long, you could buy a 4, 5, 6, year warranty when the factory warranty is done and be way ahead of the game.
- The santa fe seems to have a little more room in the back seat for the kids.
- I don't think the crv will be worth twice what the santa fe is worth in 12 months. I'm willing to turn that into a wager if you like. I do agree that the santa fe depreciates more quickly.
Honestly, my inclination was to buy a crv. The car is for my wife and she prefers the look and the ride of the santa fe. When I looked at the improving reliability and test drive reviews, I didn't think it was a bad choice and it's $1k less than the crv-ex (paying cash). I was not attracted by the warrantee but thought it a good safety valve for an improving car.
having second thoughts now. If I change my mind now, there will defintely be some marital coin spent
im not trying to come down on you or anything for being interested in the hyundai. i just think that, when a bunch of pros say "dont do it..you have too much to live for", that it should send up red flags.
we had a used santa fe here...held onto it for about 120 days, and the door was cracked exactly -0- times. it went to auction, where we lost almost $2500.
if you are looking at the books, then i agree. the crv wont be worth twice what the santa fe is worth...but in real-world market conditions, crv's sell immediately, and santa fe's...dont.
if she is set on a santa fe, i would offer a compromise, and look for a 1 or 2 year old. spend half the money. the rest can be used for more marital capital. ;-)
While I agree that the CRV will hold its value better, it won't be worth twice as much. I hope you are not an appraiser.
The CRV is a great vehicle, but I have no doubts about the quality of the Santa Fe. I sold one to my mother, and yes we do speak to each other still. My used car department can't get enough Santa Fe's for their lot, so if you had one for 120 days it sounds like something was terribly wrong.
actually, it was nice...1 year old with only 12k miles. white with tan interior, power, cd, 4wd.
we had it as a price leader for 60 of the 120 days, and couldnt get people to even look once, let alone make a ridiculous offer.
im also in a place where there are domestic factories, and alot of the economy is geared to those families. that, im sure, has a little to do with it...but it cant be the whole reason.
heck...even a ford escape holds its value better than a santa fe.
I just took my 99 CRV in for the 105K maint. and on the work order I signed before the work was started there was a clause for binding arbitration. Then when I picked up my vehicle, at the cashiers office, the form to sign had a binding arbitration clause.
I'm sure these forms are standard practice at this Honda dealership. I'm sure if I refused to sign it for normal maint. schedule they wouldn't do the work. But I'd be curious to know if I had my vehicle in for some warranty work or a recall and I refused to sign the binding arbitration, what would they or Honda do? Would they still do the work? If I reported this to Honda's regional office, what would Honda do if anything?
I don't care what any magazine says or even how many awards a vehicle has won, when it comes right down to it they mean nothing. Take the Titan for example, its won tons of awards, is ranked very high in magazines, but ya know what?? I'm paying for a truck I cannot drive, its spent more time down than up. Heck, I've put more miles on this little Escape (awesome little SUV btw) I've had as a rental in 3 weeks then I've put on my Titan in 2 months.
Hyundai may have come up in the world, but I would still bet on the safe side and go Honda or Toyota.........believe me, I wish I had. I think korean autos have a looonnnngggg way to go to compete with Honda/Toyota/Subaru. Even the Ford Escape would be a better bet me thinks
Don't get me wrong, I love my Titan, but it pains me to make payments on something I can't drive.
I have followed the advice of some of the readers and drove to the location of the dealership today and discovered that the same new car dealership is still open, but owned by someone else, with a new name. I asked about the previous dealership/owner and was told that the bank shut them down because they were not paying. I didn't understand what they meant by that, but that's what they said (and that the previous owner had "skipped out"). They said they were not associated with the previous dealership/owner. They gave me an 800 number to call and said they would be able to take care of it. I called it and it was the number to the TX Dept of Motor Vehicle's complain line to leave a message(??).
I also called the bank that's financing the new car to let them know that the company closed down, and learned that they, in fact, had not yet received the title. So now they are "looking into the matter" also.
And no I have not signed anything and will not before talking to a lawyer, if and when it comes to that.
Thanks for all the advice! I will continue to keep everyone posted.
Your story is probably one of the best that has come through here. I sympathize with you though. The folks in the biz here that have offered their advice are very knowledgeable, so heed what they say (and you are too, good for you).
I wish you the best of luck.....
PS.....Man, what the heck was your bank thinking, sending them the title before the check cleared?
Thanks. Who knows what they were thinking. After weeks of waiting for the payoff, maybe they were excited to have finally received it? lol. What got me though is that they didn't even have a physical address for the payoff check to be Fed-Ex'd, so it had to go thru the US postal service to their PO Box. A physical address might have helped.
After learning what I have today about the dealership being forced to shut down, I wonder if they even filed for bankruptcy. I only got the bankruptcy part from the creditor, but I'm not sure what to believe from them. They also said that they couldn't locate the owner of the dealership. ??
... ** I asked about the previous dealership/owner and was told that the bank shut them down because they were not paying. I didn't understand what they meant by that, but that's what they said (and that the previous owner had "skipped out"). They said they were not associated with the previous dealership/owner** .. ====================
I'm guessing .. but probably what had happened was the floorplan was "double clutched" and the bank picked it up a few times on the floorplan check and the owner received one last "immediate pay" .. I'm sure somebody somewhere had somebody waiting to take over the store ....
Here is why I lend less credence to CR than others might:
1) The CR statitics are self reported. When I belonged to CU many years ago, I filled out the survey each year. If you look at the demographics of the people filling out the surveys - a critical aspect of any research, you will find that it deviates substantially from the US population as a whole. It is more urban, wealthier, and more biased toward the coasts..
2) Who sits on the board of directors of Consumers Union? Trial lawyers. Unbiased? I doubt it.
3) I decided to drop CR when they were comparing eceonomy models, comparing a domestic with an MSRP of $6500 with an import with an MSRP of $11,200. Is it any surprise which one was more impressive?
Let's say I want to buy a Dodge Magnum R/T. I want to order it so I can get it exactly the way I want it. I want options x,y and z but not options p & u. As I understand it this is not possible because options are sold in packages. Can any dealers shed some light on this?
In certain cases, yes, in order to get a particular feature, you may only be able to get that in an options package. Just use this website to see what options and packages are available.
I recently sold my wife's car. It was supposed to be a trade-in, but the salesman decided he wanted it for a "family member" himself, so offered to buy it out of dealership for $250 more. We sold the car 2 wks ago and signed over the title and received cash payment. In hindsight, I am stupid for not making a copy of the title paper.
Today, I received a bill from the Tollway for $250 for toll violations. These all occurred the week AFTER the sale of the car. I have contacted the "new owner" and he says he'll make restitution and for me to mail him the bill.
My questions are: How do I make sure the state knows that the car is sold? Is there any way I am still responsible even after the sale? What would you do?
Did you leave your plates on the car for him to drive away with? The Tollway Authority here in Illinois tracks your vehicle by plate, not by make, model, and I doubt they do it any other way anywhere else?
Yes, the car still has my plates. I didn't know we could keep them... And you are correct, they even showed a picture of the rear end of the car with the license plate.
The guy seems pretty solid, so I suspect he'll take care of it, but I want to make sure we don't get hung out on future indiscretions they make with that auto...
You currently have a record of $250 of toll violations. If he pays you, you will still have a $250 record with the state.
If you send the state a copy of the sale data and inform them he was the salesman at the dealership and bought the car, then he'll have a $250 record and you'll have $0.
I saw a 2004 Lincoln Navigator with around 2,000 miles in a used car lot (not a dealership). They showed me the Carfax report, and apparently the SUV had electrical problems and was reported as a Manufacturer Buyback (LEMON).
I wanted to learn more details about exactly what the problem was, and see if it was something that could be fixed fairly easily....or should I just run away from this one?
This FAQ page on the Texas DMV site http://www.dot.state.tx.us/vtr/vtrreginfo.htm?pg=faq answers your exact question and links you to the Transfer Notification form to complete. This will let the state know that you no longer own the car and you will not be responsible for any citations received.
I always wondered why a dealer would have demos. Why have a demo when you can see the same vehicle make/type on the road? A dealer will generaly make less on the sale of a demo versus a new one that has not been a demo. So whats in it for the dealer to let their personel drive the new cars only to make less on the sale later on?
reason demos exist is so every car on the lot doesn't get miled up, only a couple...people are VERY picky about how many miles are on their new car.
They can drive one just like the one they're serious about, perhaps a different color, with 3,000 miles on it, and save the miles on the new unit they're considering.
It's a quick "no sale" when a vehicle has 300-400 miles for no apparent reason. Big money has to come off, because people want a new car with only 12 miles on it, and rightfully so.
If big money only comes off of a couple of vehicles, the dealership saves thousands.
Comments
Terry.
your reply is off-topic and you give no support for your position.
Have you looked at the recent consumer reports review on this car? Are you aware that this car has better than average reliability? Or, that for the money, it's considered by most reviewers as a lot of car for the money? Are you familiar with the warrantee?
regards,
jd
I'm guessing Terry finds CR as useful for cars as I do for computers. Still, it would be good to hear his opinion on this car.
I stick by my original post...if you;re going to knock a car, you should give your reasons.
regards,
jd
I dont see why line item would matter as I look for bottom OTD price.
"...she figures either she'll sell me a car or she wants to figure out how they're selling me the car at that price."
New and some used car dealers know and communicate with other dealers in the area so she would know how they got the price that low.
=====================
It's funny you brought that up ..
Yep I try to read all of the reports out there, IntelliChoice, JD Powers, Consumers, Guns and Ammo, Better Homes and Garden and Buck Rogers in the 21st century .....
Just because someone prints something, that doesn't necessarily make it true or accurate ~ just ask CBS news or the Hearst family .... some reports are 80% accurate, some are 20% accurate and some can fall in the middle at 50%, it all depends on the vehicle and who's writing the report ...
What gives a vehicle a "true test" of reliability isn't a test track or someone driving "one" for 2,0/3,000 miles and printing a report .. but two things do - and thats time and how many are in the market in the cold winters of Michigan or the hot summers of Alabama under all kinds of road conditions with lots and lots of miles .. is Hyundai building a better vehicle than they did 5/6 years ago, of course they are, anything is better than -0- ..
But in todays market there is TONS of great SUV's out there and the vast market of those have 125/150/170k on them, but they might get rated average or less, which I will never understand (actually I do) .... to draw a comparasion here, I just spent a few days at the Miami boat show and the biggest selling point for the Sea Ray dealers was they were rated #1 by JD Powers - again .. if thats the case, then why are the marina's filled with cracked hulls, spider-webbing and CM problems .... sometimes, if you don't know what to expect, then you don't know what a serious problem is - but they do have a good warranty ..l.o.l...
But, I digress .... spend the extra 20 bucks a month and find something with better reliabilty, better resale and little or no headaches ....................
Terry.
What does CM mean?
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
thanks for your reply. I had thought that CR reliability is totally based on user survey which, given a large enough sample size, should be pretty accurate. If that's not the case, your point is taken.
I couldn't agree with you more on your other points about the POV of the reviewer(S) influencing results.
For me, it came down to forrester, crv or santa fe (has to be awd where we live). I was actually at the subaru dealer, calling my wife about color, when she decided to inform me that she really didn't want another subaru (we had an outback).
Went back and forth on santa fe and crv. It was very clear that the crv has better resale and reliability but, with our 3 kids getting bigger, decided on the santa fe.
Giving it some more thought now...thanks for your help (and gentle reply).
best,
jd
I think that CR is a good and largely unbiased source.. as far as what they do with the data.
The data come form their readers, which as a group probably ARE biased. But so what, it's the biggest sample out there, and whenever I know of a big problem with a model and go looking for it, I find it in the data... Toyota V6 headgaskets in 95, Chrysler minivan transmissions, that sorta thing.
The biggest problem with the CR data is the self-selection in the sample.. iow, the data don't come from the broad market, but from people who answer the survey. These are the kind of people organized enough to know where their mail is, and they probably pay their bills on time, and they may even store their socks in pairs. AND change their oil, and stuff.
So when these people fill out the survey, any maintenance-related problem doesn't show up. The headgasket does, but not the Toyota V6 "sludge problem". Out in the world of soccer moms who change the oil every other christmas, it happens, and you have to watch out a little...
I can hardly think of a sample more disparate than CR survey-filler-outers and the average Kiundai customer. That is how I explain the two observations: Above-average reliability data, and reports from Terry about entire lanes filled with "MBB/NW" (manuf. buyback, no warranty).
I think Hyundai builds "ok" cars, but I wouldn't buy one at this time. It would be interesting to see how Mitsubishi stacks up; they've done themselves no favors with the 0/0/0 loans they've been pushing... I bet their clientele is also stacked towards the clueless...
Meaning no disrespect to Hyundai or Mitsu owners... it's not that buying one of those makes you an idiot, it's just that stupid people are more likely to fall for stunts like 0/0/0 or 5-year Hyundai leases with the 100k warranty.
That's how I reconcile the differences in reports on these cars.
-Mathias
Great point on the skewed CR sample.
It's worth pointing out that the ratings are self-fulfilling for a guy like me. Since I read CR, I'm the kinda guy that does all the stuff you talk about (change oil, pair socks...) so the ratings should be pretty accurate for me.
regards,
jd
regards,
jd
I take good care of my cars, and I am amazed how closely my personal experiences mirror the CR reports. And, I do fill out the survey each year. So, their results are pretty useful to a guy like me. I can see how they would fall short for other people.
A few years back I sold appliances and the Maytag customers I sold to always told me that Maytags are bulletproof, indestructable, etc. Now they may have had it 6 years and put 2 motors and 3 pumps in it, but, ya know, other than that it ran like a fine swiss watch.
in 12 months, the crv will be worth twice (yes, twice) what a santa fe will be worth.
i dont see how, with the MILES of disparity from hyundai to honda, anyone could come to another conclusion.
BTW...if you are leaning the hyundai's way because of the warranty, then you are the EXACT guinea pig they want. ask yourself this question...what would happen if their warranty were the same as honda's?
- I don't think the crv will be worth twice what the santa fe is worth in 12 months. I'm willing to turn that into a wager if you like. I do agree that the santa fe depreciates more quickly.
Honestly, my inclination was to buy a crv. The car is for my wife and she prefers the look and the ride of the santa fe. When I looked at the improving reliability and test drive reviews, I didn't think it was a bad choice and it's $1k less than the crv-ex (paying cash). I was not attracted by the warrantee but thought it a good safety valve for an improving car.
having second thoughts now. If I change my mind now, there will defintely be some marital coin spent
regards,
jd
we had a used santa fe here...held onto it for about 120 days, and the door was cracked exactly -0- times. it went to auction, where we lost almost $2500.
if you are looking at the books, then i agree. the crv wont be worth twice what the santa fe is worth...but in real-world market conditions, crv's sell immediately, and santa fe's...dont.
if she is set on a santa fe, i would offer a compromise, and look for a 1 or 2 year old. spend half the money. the rest can be used for more marital capital. ;-)
Can Terry be the judge of the outcome?
The CRV is a great vehicle, but I have no doubts about the quality of the Santa Fe. I sold one to my mother, and yes we do speak to each other still. My used car department can't get enough Santa Fe's for their lot, so if you had one for 120 days it sounds like something was terribly wrong.
we had it as a price leader for 60 of the 120 days, and couldnt get people to even look once, let alone make a ridiculous offer.
im also in a place where there are domestic factories, and alot of the economy is geared to those families. that, im sure, has a little to do with it...but it cant be the whole reason.
heck...even a ford escape holds its value better than a santa fe.
I'm sure these forms are standard practice at this Honda dealership. I'm sure if I refused to sign it for normal maint. schedule they wouldn't do the work. But I'd be curious to know if I had my vehicle in for some warranty work or a recall and I refused to sign the binding arbitration, what would they or Honda do? Would they still do the work? If I reported this to Honda's regional office, what would Honda do if anything?
Hyundai may have come up in the world, but I would still bet on the safe side and go Honda or Toyota.........believe me, I wish I had. I think korean autos have a looonnnngggg way to go to compete with Honda/Toyota/Subaru. Even the Ford Escape would be a better bet me thinks
Don't get me wrong, I love my Titan, but it pains me to make payments on something I can't drive.
I also called the bank that's financing the new car to let them know that the company closed down, and learned that they, in fact, had not yet received the title. So now they are "looking into the matter" also.
And no I have not signed anything and will not before talking to a lawyer, if and when it comes to that.
Thanks for all the advice! I will continue to keep everyone posted.
I wish you the best of luck.....
PS.....Man, what the heck was your bank thinking, sending them the title before the check cleared?
After learning what I have today about the dealership being forced to shut down, I wonder if they even filed for bankruptcy. I only got the bankruptcy part from the creditor, but I'm not sure what to believe from them. They also said that they couldn't locate the owner of the dealership. ??
====================
I'm guessing .. but probably what had happened was the floorplan was "double clutched" and the bank picked it up a few times on the floorplan check and the owner received one last "immediate pay" .. I'm sure somebody somewhere had somebody waiting to take over the store ....
good luck and keep us posted ..
Terry.
1) The CR statitics are self reported. When I belonged to CU many years ago, I filled out the survey each year. If you look at the demographics of the people filling out the surveys - a critical aspect of any research, you will find that it deviates substantially from the US population as a whole. It is more urban, wealthier, and more biased toward the coasts..
2) Who sits on the board of directors of Consumers Union? Trial lawyers. Unbiased? I doubt it.
3) I decided to drop CR when they were comparing eceonomy models, comparing a domestic with an MSRP of $6500 with an import with an MSRP of $11,200. Is it any surprise which one was more impressive?
Good luck.
Today, I received a bill from the Tollway for $250 for toll violations. These all occurred the week AFTER the sale of the car. I have contacted the "new owner" and he says he'll make restitution and for me to mail him the bill.
My questions are: How do I make sure the state knows that the car is sold? Is there any way I am still responsible even after the sale? What would you do?
Thanks for any advise.
Did you leave your plates on the car for him to drive away with? The Tollway Authority here in Illinois tracks your vehicle by plate, not by make, model, and I doubt they do it any other way anywhere else?
Good Luck
Wayne R. Gerdes
Yes, the car still has my plates. I didn't know we could keep them... And you are correct, they even showed a picture of the rear end of the car with the license plate.
The guy seems pretty solid, so I suspect he'll take care of it, but I want to make sure we don't get hung out on future indiscretions they make with that auto...
If you send the state a copy of the sale data and inform them he was the salesman at the dealership and bought the car, then he'll have a $250 record and you'll have $0.
I'd take the latter choice.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
I wanted to learn more details about exactly what the problem was, and see if it was something that could be fixed fairly easily....or should I just run away from this one?
Thank you,
Faisal
Terry.
Great link! Thanks for the input.
Best wishes.
They can drive one just like the one they're serious about, perhaps a different color, with 3,000 miles on it, and save the miles on the new unit they're considering.
It's a quick "no sale" when a vehicle has 300-400 miles for no apparent reason. Big money has to come off, because people want a new car with only 12 miles on it, and rightfully so.
If big money only comes off of a couple of vehicles, the dealership saves thousands.
Why not use a used car as a service loaner?