Now that Chevy has announced they are killing a model in their lineup, the Maxx (dies in 2008), what happens to dealers trying to sell this?
Does it impact a dealer sales of a model if a Mfr announces an end of life date (like VW did with the R32, and probably many others I cannot think of...).
And what happens to resale value? Did Oldsmobile blue book crash once GM decided to close that division?
i think it really depends whether the interest in the vehicle dies, or if people who have been possibly thinking about it decide to buy because they wont be around much longer. I can tell you however (and terry can vouch for me on this) that the value of the oldsmobiles went WAY down after they shut down business. people dont want a car by a company that doesnt exist anymore.
I made the decision to purchase my '03 Aurora because Olds was being eliminated. I normally keep cars (didn't used to ) for at least five years, and because GM/Olds offered the extended warranty to 5yrs/60K at no extra charge, that was a huge consideration for me. My selling dealer, for an additional $100, allowed me to extend the GM warranty one additional year. That car is not quite 2 1/2 years old and I have not quite 20k miles on it. But I also have three other cars (don't ask! :shades: )
Style, comfort, and performance are more important to me than resale. But that's ME. I have been following your posts and I agree with you and the other dealer folks who post here. So much so that I purchased my last three GM cars from the same dealership 130 miles from my home in VA because of sales AND service considerations. And yes, the selling dealer services all four of my cars as I am in that area almost every weekend, and they accommodate my erratic schedule. Simply put, they routinely demonstate they want my business, and go out of their way to make sure I am 100% satisfied.
I understand the need for ANY business to make money to stay in business. I agree with others who don't understand why it's okay to wring every last $$$ from a car dealer but don't hesitate to pay full price on furniture, clothing, etc. As someone who worked retail for 21 years, I know markup. We routinely held 30% off, 1/2 off "closeout" sales, and still made plenty of $$$. For example, I sold 4-ply silk crepe for $64.99 per yard, yes, per yard, that cost us $9 per yard. But then again, my customers were used to paying hundreds of $$$ for clothing from Nordstroms and other high-end stores. When they discovered they could have custom clothing for 1/2 the going price of retail, that same custom-made garment became a bargain. And again, we still made plenty of $$$.
In November of 2003, I purchased a Saturn L300. Now, Saturn has stopped production of that car (actually, production stopped last June; the plant is being converted to build the Pontiac Solstice and Saturn Sky roadsters) and I'm left with an orphan.
Am I worried? Not really ... the L-series was built for 5 or 6 model years and the same platform was used for the (cancelled) Cadillac Catera as well as some Saab models. Same with the engine ... a 54-degree V6. As long as parts are available, I plan on keeping the car for a while.
Now that Chevy has announced they are killing a model in their lineup, the Maxx (dies in 2008), what happens to dealers trying to sell this?
Does it impact a dealer sales of a model if a Mfr announces an end of life date (like VW did with the R32, and probably many others I cannot think of...).
And what happens to resale value? Did Oldsmobile blue book crash once GM decided to close that division?
It's one version of a model - it's not liked they said they're killing the Chevy brand. Besides, they've sold what 2-300 of them? I dont' think the resale value is gonna get any worse than it already is.
..... Whether you like it or I like it is a moot point .... it's the broad market that makes the decision ...
Like the Honda Element and the Scion, it was a gamble ... nobody knew if they would make it (even though all the articles say so - now) it's impossible to figure what will make it and what will fail, the Ford Escape is a perfect example ... every info source called it dead in 20 months, now they sell everyone they can build -- it's a gamble ...
....... I see this has taken a life of it's own after 50 some posts, but still hasn't gotten anywhere ...
Dealer fee's are like any other fee's, you shop them .... import dealers have the highest fee's on the planet, check any Bimmer, Audi, Yota, Benz dealer ...
Just like boat dealers, they may try to charge $2,400 for transport and set-up that cost them $800, or furniture stores that charge $1,900 for a chair that cost them $400, or how this bank charges $9,500 for closing costs and the one down the street charges $6,000 ..... no sense in getting into a banter about all this stuff, you just do your homework, shop the market and get your best price and go on ..... the point is, whether the money comes out of your right pocket or your left pocket, it comes out of the same pair of pants ... best price wins, but I would never gamble any service for a few hundred bucks ....
"Like the Honda Element and the Scion, it was a gamble.."
I didn't realize the MAXX was that much of a flop. I hope they sold enought there'll be some around used in the future... I thought it was a pretty cool car. There's your problem, my tastes run at right angles to mainstream America... gimme a minivan with a stick shift, please!
About the original question: I'm not so sure killing off a car always hurts resale.
The Olds cars have not taken that big of a hit... maybe initially, but that's over, they're just another used car. Especially since they can be serviced at Buick or Chevy or Pontiac stores just fine.
Other cars can increase in value. Camaro/Firebird..? Honda Civic Hatch? Camry or Corolla wagon? Those are all good merchandise if in nice shape, and you can't find them.
I assumed the Maxx was classified as a model. Perhaps it's more accurate to say GM's killing a VARIANT of the Malibu platform, which is the Maxx.
As for looks, Maxx isn't THAT ugly. When I first got it, people routinely came up to me, said it looked great, asked what it was. They were surprised when I said it was a Chevrolet. It's proven a lot more versatile than my last two sedans!
Is it true that hatches are only successful in the USA if they are 1) trendy foreigners, 2) hot performers, 3) all the above?
Try finding a nice clean low mile 02 Aurora V6 for cheap $$ .. dealers are paying the super strong $12's (and then some) for em' .... not bad for a "we're out of biz" company, especially when they were only $29 - New .....
I reciently purchased a cert. preowned suburban Z71 from All Star Automotive in Baton Rouge. The deal was I trade in my Isuzu trooper which I owed $4200 on and All start would give me $7500 on the trade. We agreed and all paperwork was done and we drove away. Two weeks later the salesman calls me saying the they thought I owed them a check for $2500 towards the puchase which I NEVER agreed to. I have not been back yet but I feel like I may need legal representation on this. Any comments?
True, killing off a car, or even a brand may not hurt it's resale value if those cars are still serviceable, such as with any Olds because they share many parts with other GM vehicles.
But killing off a stand alone brand in North America such as Daewoo, Fiat, Peugeot, Alfa Romeo, Lada, Yugo etc... will definately hurt the resale as dealer networks cease to exist and serviceability becomes a big issue. If you can't service or repair the car and parts cost an arm and a leg because they have to shipped from overseas then you have a problem.
At least for the general Joe and Jane Carbuyer, they are not interested in expensive to fix cars, but for enthusiasts some brands such as Alfa Romeo may be worth a lot more. Unfortunately there is more regular Joe Carbuyers than Joe Enthusiasts.
I have no legal training, but... If your contract is signed by you & the dealer, and you've both met the stipulations of the contract, then the deal is DONE. A phone call saying they thought you owed them $2500 is not (in my opinion) a LEGAL action. If they want more money, they need to put it in writing; however, if you've already met the provisions of the contract - they have NO LEGAL leg to stand on. If they call you again, you have every right to advise them to stop calling you. If they persist, contact your state's Consumer Affairs board.
I mean, what the heck are they talking about? They "thought" you owed them money? Wow! How are these people in business? Is that really the wording they used? And, heck, how did they let you drive off without fully paying?? It just makes no sense.
What does your contract say? Have you double-checked it? Some finance folks like to write things up real confusing-like. So just make SURE you don't really owe anything.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
Awright....if any of you are still around that remember that my brand new Tacoma had "brake failure", here's an update and another series of "what do I do now".
Dealership's Service Mgr just left me a voice mail. In short, he said my Tacoma checked out. He also said that he wanted the loaner car back "TODAY" and for me to come pick up my truck. I called him back and told him that was unacceptable since, even though they observed the brake pedal going all the way to the floor, their stance was it was "normal". He mentioned they couldn't replicate the "total brake failure" that happened to me.
Put a call into the GM of the dealership. Told him what the Service Manager said. He said they'd take my Tacoma back, but they had none like it to put me in another one (V6, 4X4, automatic, Shortbed). Matter of fact, he said the only ones he had were "prerunners". He then asked if I'd be interested in a 4Runner. He said nothing of finding another Tacoma close to what mine was.
At this point, I've got two choices from what I can tell. Go through "lemon law" proceedings (which I really don't want to do since it's a lengthy, time consuming process), or look at a 4 Runner in the hopes that I they'll not try to recoup their "loss" on the Tacoma.
I'll assume a 4Runner is more expensive than a Tacoma to boot.
Well, I assume that you wanted a truck to begin with, or you would have looked at 4Runners, not Tacomas. Though I would assume that there are a number of similarities between the two (engine, transmission, etc.), one's a truck and the other is an SUV.
Did you plan on using the Tacoma as a truck? That is, loads of dirt, mulch, etc. in the bed? Hauling around motorcycles and the like? If so, then a 4Runner isn't going to do those things very well. OTOH, a Tacoma won't seat 5 comfortably.
My guess is that the 4Runner is going to cost more than the Tacoma, all things being equal. If you want the 4Runner, go for it. If you want a new Tacoma to replace yours, stick to your guns and get the dealer to find one similar to what you had .. I can't believe that it would be that hard!
Yeah, you might have to give up or get an option or two in the process, but you have to ask yourself if it is worth it.
Thanks....getting ready to head to the dealer, now. I carry lawn equipment, big household gear, etc. I do go off-roading in the spring and summer. Pick-up would be best.
I'm rather tired of this whole ordeal, though. At first, all I wanted them to do was replace my truck. Now, I just want to be through with it. We've been "back and forth" for two weeks on this whole debacle.
they'll try to wear you down and just make you take something you don't want because you want it all to be done with. when you spend as much money as you do on a vehicle, you should get what you want, period. ask them politely to get a truck similar to the one you had. if you feel up to it, (and this is your choice) tell them you'll pay to have them pick it up ($100 is MORE than enough for that). be firm, and polite, and tell them you understand this is a unique situation, but just replacing it with something you DONT want is unacceptable - after all, you didnt buy something you didnt want in the first place!
To close this saga out, Toyota dealer totally unwound the deal on the Tacoma with the bad brakes. Service manager swore nothing was wrong with it. That said, they loaded the Tacoma on a carrier to send it back to CA plant for "analysis".
While the dealer did say they'd try to locate another Tacoma just like the original one I bought, I vented my frustration as how long it took to bring this whole scenario to a conclusion (in a firm but polite way).
They found an identical Tacoma at another dealership 3 hours away and said they'd do a dealer trade. No extra money out of my pocket for the dealer trade. Couldn't get it until at the earliest, next Tuesday or Wednesday.
They then offered to let me use a 4Runner as a loaner until the Tacoma came in. Put me in a blue 4WD SR5 V6 base model with bigger tires and sunroof as the only options. Just came off the delivery truck with 3 miles on the odo. They said drive it over the weekend to see if I liked it. You can see where this is going.
I drove it around Friday night and a good portion of Saturday. I liked it. Went in to the dealer yesterday afternoon, knowing it was going to cost more. Ended up buying it for about $900 over invoice before the $500 rebate. They didn't get rich on the deal. But, I did have to pony up another $2K over the price of the Tacoma to get it. Told them to forget about the dealer trade.
Just glad to be through with the whole ordeal. Got a truck that, while not perfect for what I intend to use it for, is close enough (hauling big stuff....running on dirt back roads to a summer cabin....winter driving). I can't just hose it out, but it feels substantial enough to get some serious work. Most importantly, the brakes work just fine.
I'm going to assume that the Tacoma was an anomalie. That the 4Runner will be very reliable and that it will hold its value well. Agree?
**I'm going to assume that the Tacoma was an anomalie. That the 4Runner will be very reliable and that it will hold its value well. Agree?** ...
I agree .. sometimes (in a blue moon) something happens to a vehicle in production ..... little gremlins, maybe terrorists, maybe somebody dropped their contacts into the works -- who knows.?
It happens in all types, all prices and varieties, my buddy is still waiting for the "Fat Daddy's" to fly in to check out his 05 Mini Cooper Convert with 800 miles -- turn on the air and the little bugger quits (not good at 65 mph on I-95) drop the top and the windows don't work .. that said, my dealer buddy has been wonderful and he dropped him into a 04 330i so he won't be inconvenienced ..... we will see what the "Cooper Cops" find out in the next few days .. my theory is, there is a Voodoo doll somewhere in the works from his ex-wife .....
The dealer did the right thing, so I'm glad things are working out for you ....
I've got an autox buddy who has one of those new Minis. They are quirky little runabouts by his account. Can't complain about having a 330i loaner, though.
From what I understand from the Toyota dealership's GM, Toyota was so concerned with the brake issue, the Region wants to get it back to NUMMI to inspect it. So much for worrying about resale disclosures. They "suspect" it's a supplier issue with the cap that goes on top of the master cylinder since they said it showed some "leakage" on it. Their initial assessment was at certain temps, the cap was allowing the fluid to overheat and "boil out" since brake pressure was dropping well below spec. Bottom line, they really don't know anything for certain though and it was clearly a problem your run of the mill tech wouldn't be able to diagnose (which in turn, caused the Service Manager to say they could find nothing wrong). Apparently the 'yoda region guy(s) were the ones that told the dealership to unwind the deal.
I was having a bout of wishful thinking that they'd sell me another vehicle at cost. They didn't feel benvolent enough to go quite that far. Got a year's worth of free oil changes and tire rotations out of the deal for my troubles, though.
You're on the internet now. You have a wealth of information at your fingertips. You can get invoice from Edmunds, KBB, CarsDirect, NADA, etc. You got Terry in RWTIV giving you the straight poop on used, as well as the above guides. By all means do your comparison shopping, but with the info that's out there, you should have a pretty good idea what a good deal is within a couple hundred bucks. If you don't you're a...well, I won't say it because our benevolent overlords would delete this post quicker than a hobo eats a meat sandwich.
The days of the Dealer holding all the cars shrouded in a cloud of mysterious fees and dealer add ons and Ajusted Market Value is over.
I wonder if Bobst used the Bobst approach to get his wife? "Hey baby, I don't know you, but here's my marriage proposal: * Every saturday I get to go fishing with the boys. * I like pot roast and expect it twice a month * Don't talk to me about your friends problems, I may nod and say Ummhmm, but I'm not really listening. * I fart ALOT * I'll remember our anniversaries for the first 5 years, after that it's a crapshoot.
Take it or leave it, I'm heading out the door in 1...2...3...Okay, last chance...
A reporter wishes to speak with people who have recently purchased a Toyota 4Runner. She would like to discuss your ownership experience and what other cars you considered. If you would like to speak with her please send your name and daytime phone number to Pam Krebs, Edmunds.com PR, at pkrebs@edmunds.com by 12 noon Tuesday, June 28. Thank you.
MODERATOR /ADMINISTRATOR Find me at kirstie_h@edmunds.com - or send a private message by clicking on my name. 2015 Kia Soul, 2021 Subaru Forester (kirstie_h), 2024 GMC Sierra 1500 (mr. kirstie_h) Review your vehicle
Graphicguy, I'm slightly lost here since I don't really follow Toyota products... you bought a Tacoma truck and they got you into a 4 Runner... A 4 Runner is a truck too right or an SUV? Is it the same size as a Tacoma? I know that the Tundra is the largest Toyota truck.
Mark156
2010 Land Rover LR4, 2013 Honda CR-V, 2009 Bentley GTC, 1990 MB 500SL, 2001 MB S500, 2007 Lincoln TC, 1964 RR Silver Cloud III, 1995 MB E320 Cab., 2015 Prevost Liberty Coach
I am glad to hear that all has worked out in your favor in this vehicle saga... But I do have some questions on why you did what you did... I have been following most of your posts and don't quite understand why you did not get another Tacoma? Getting a 4Runner is not the same thing as getting the Tacoma and one would think that if you bought the Tacoma to begin with there must have been a reason you did so...maybe it was the utility of the truck that you needed for hauling things or just doing your normal homeowner stuff.... Getting a SUV vice a truck is a big change in my mind...someone on here said get a trailer and you can do the same thing...but doesn't that just mask the reason for getting the truck to begin with? Bottom line is that an SUV is not the same as a truck no matter what way you look at...it is truck like I will give you that...but you loose the ability to have a true utility truck... From some of your earlier posts it seemed as though you were going to stick to your guns and get another Tacoma with the same options as before (or as close as you could get) and not pay a dime more out of your pocket... Don't take this the wrong way but I think you played right into the dealers hand...they got you into a 4Runner for more money and I'm sure Toyota will find something wrong with the truck and reimburse the dealership. No matter what that dealership would have told me...I would have made them get my new Tacoma...even if they had to go out of state...if they would have tried hard enough they would have found the same truck as what you had before...but to them the sale was already done and they felt like they were doing you a favor by doing what they did...again, I am glad things worked out in your favor but I just don't see you ending up in the same spot as you were when you bought the Tacoma to begin with...and if that was not the case then I think you would have bought the 4Runner to begin with...on any account, enjoy your 4Runner...they are nice SUV's and will run forever...IMO.
mark....I guess technically, both are trucks. Tacoma and 4Runner share the same tranny (5-speed auto) and engine (6 cyl). I don't know if the platform they're built on is the same, however. My Tacoma was a shortbed, so the amount of room for hauling "stuff" is about the same between the two. I was going to put a "cap" on the Tacoma, so in effect, I suppose they would have been more similar than different since the back end would have been enclosed on both.
The Tundra is big. If there's any sort of platform sharing, I would imagine the Tundra would be similar to the Sequoia.
Big difference was in the interiors. Both have nice interiors, but they're very different from each other inside. 4Runner comes with more standard features and also rides/handles more like a car than a truck. 4Runner's back seat is bigger, too. The Tacoma's 4WD is different as it was strictly for part-time use. 4Runner's 4WD has stability and traction control, hill holder, etc as standard features. You can also use it's 4WD system full time even on hard/dry pavement.
I can collapse the rear seats in the 4Runner to give me all the room I need for hauling. I've got an "A" frame summer house on a lake near Georgetown, KY (I live outside of Cincinnati) that I use on weekends . It's on a dirt road. The (dirt/gravel) driveway is on an incline. I haul "stuff" back and forth from home to the cabin, so 4WD was a must. 4Runner handles and rides better than the Tacoma, but for a pick-up, the Tacoma rode/handled quite well.
We get a healthy snow storm once per winter (sometimes more). So 4WD will come in handy for that use, too.
As I look back, either the 4Runner or the Tacoma would have fit the bill for what I was looking for. Having the composite bed of the Tacoma led me to think it would be nice to be able to just hose it out if it got dirty. That was the big "selling point" of the Tacoma. That said, I'm not hauling loose dirt, mulch and rocks, so the composite bed really wasn't as much of an issue as I originally thought it would be. That's the only reason I agreed to settling for the 4Runner to replace the "brakeless" Tacoma. Otherwise, I would have stuck to my guns to get another Tacoma.
Tacoma is less expensive than a 4Runner, though. By the time I added the cost of a cap and running boards to the Tacoma, they'd probably be priced about the same (4Runner comes with running boards standard and it doesn't need a cap). Both the Tacoma and the 4Runner are SR5 models. You can easily get well into the $40K+ range with a 4Runner if you want a lux wagon with leather, V8, DVD, Navigation, etc however.
Base model 4WD 4Runner (which is what my SR5 is) will sticker in the $31K-$33K. range. I bought mine right around the $29K number (it has a sunroof, spoiler and roof rack plus some other minor options).
A 4WD Tacoma SR5 all loaded up with automatic trans, TRD, etc will sticker for $29K. I originally bought mine for around $27K.
"Don't take this the wrong way but I think you played right into the dealers hand...they got you into a 4Runner for more money and I'm sure Toyota will find something wrong with the truck and reimburse the dealership."
If the name of the game is "Punish The Dealership", then you're right of course...
But graphic just needed a new vehicle, and if it turns out he likes the 4R better than the Tacoma, so much the better. The dealership was doing alright by him; they didn't build the truck... so I don' t think something that works for them is automatically bad for the consumer.
So much energy is invested by car buyers to make sure the dealership does not make "too much" money. And comparatively little effort is made to get the right vehicle.
Having found the right car, then I'm perfectly happy to work towards a skinny deal :-)
If the name of the game is "Punish The Dealership", then you're right of course...
That is not what I meant...all I was saying is that he went in to buy a product from a business...this product was defective (for whatever reason)...in most cases you should be able to return that product and get another one of equal value. Regardless if we are talking about a lawn mower or in this case a truck...
The dealership from the start was reluctant to do anything at first...but because of his persistants they folded and finally listen to reason. Now having said that...why did they try and put him in another vehicle that is so much different than the one he had...Tacoma's and 4Runners are different...we can reasons to ourselves that they are similiar but in fact they are not...
Again, let me state that I am glad that things worked out...but if a dealership is to maintain its integrity then they really need to look at the consumer...Now I realize that the dealership might have to weed out the people who are trying to go back on a car deal but in this case it was a legit safety issue...and if I am not mistaken it was the dealership who brought up the subject of trying out a 4Runner instead of just getting him the Tacoma for which he had origially.
I am glad he is happy with his 4Runner...and I know he will enjoy it...but for someone like myself who has no vested interest on either side it just seems the dealership took him where THEY wanted to go instead of just doing the right thing and get him another Tacoma regardless of where they had to go to get it.
One way or another the dealership did come through in some sense...but if they didn't I sure this gentlemen would have went straight up the ladder as he should have to the regional director for toyota...
In the end it sounds like everyone is happy which I know was the objective to begin with...I just don't think the way it came about was 100% pure...IMO of course.
MODERATOR /ADMINISTRATOR Find me at kirstie_h@edmunds.com - or send a private message by clicking on my name. 2015 Kia Soul, 2021 Subaru Forester (kirstie_h), 2024 GMC Sierra 1500 (mr. kirstie_h) Review your vehicle
One thing you're forgetting.....I have the checkbook. I could have accepted or rejected any deal on any vehicle at any time.
There were a couple of different ways I could have gone. While documenting everything and what everyone said, I felt confident that if I went the "lemon law" route, I would have prevailed with a full refund. The downside is that would have taken months. I wasn't particularly fond of the idea of letting the issue drag out that long. Plus, that took the dealership out of the equation. My understanding, particularly with Toyota, is customer satisfaction is very important. I wanted the dealership to have "skin in the game" as I'm going to have to deal with them for, at least another 4-7 years on this vehicle.
The dealership agreed to get me into another Tacoma identical to the one I originally bought (right down to the silver color) on a dealer trade.
They knew I was frustrated and was getting more frustrated as a resolution drug on. Do I wish they would have had an identical Tacoma in stock that they would have swapped me immediately? Of course. I do understand that they had "due diligence" that they had to research to protect themselves from someone who "willy-nilly" wanted to unwind a deal because of buyer's remorse. I accepted that reality.
In the interest of speeding up an acceptable resolution, they offered to let me drive a "loaner", brand spanking new 4Runner with 3 miles on the odometer. This is after they already had me in a "free loaner" for the previous two weeks (a Pilot from their sister Honda dealership, right next door). They made the 4Runner offer after they were aware that I was going to buy a "cap" for the Tacoma. As the GM of the dealership said, if that's the case, "you might want to take a look at a 4Runner". He did so by pointing out that the pricing of the Tacoma plus an aftermarket cap would put me mighty close to the 4Runner's price. He was right. They let me use the NEW 4Runner over the weekend, with no money out of my pocket. He made it clear, they'd abide by any decision I came to.
I could have rejected the 4Runner and they would have done the "dealer trade" for the replacement Tacoma. Again, I had the checkbook.
They totally "unwound" the Tacoma deal like it never happened. All my money that I paid for the Tacoma came back to me. The keys to the Tacoma went back to them. Did I get the 4Runner back of invoice? No! Did the dealership get rich on the deal? No! I thought the price was fair for the 4Runner. They sold it to me at a substantial discount (by about 10% off MSRP). They still made money. The salesperson probably pocketed a hundred or so. I was OK with that. They threw in some free oil changes and tire rotations for my trouble.
I genuinely believe they were trying to resolve this to my satisfaction (although, I did sense the Service Manager to be a little reluctant since it was a reflection on his dept that he couldn't resolve the issue). At no time did I feel I was being "upsold" to spend more money. The GM, SM, Salesperson made a compelling case in finding out what I really needed/wanted and the cash outlay I'd have to make in either instance (additional cash outlay for a Tacoma "cap" or additional cost of going with the 4Runner).
The choice was always mine.
I have no idea what will happen to the original Tacoma other than they hauled it away to the CA plant. I don't know what, if anything, Toyota reimbursed the dealership for the Tacoma. Moreover, I don't care.
I'm glad to hear that all is well with your resolution... I guess maybe I misread some of your earlier posts...for that I stand corrected... Maybe it was the Service Manger post I read and thought that was the view of the entire dealership...my bad...
Good luck to you and your new 4Runner...you'll get a cool 200K plus miles out of her...
You are happy. They are off the hook on the defective Tacoma.
You received a price you are happy with. They made a little money on the deal.
It sounds like a good deal to me.
I would be curious to know which dealer you were dealing with as I buy most of my vehicles in Cincinnati.
(I know that manufacturing defects occur on ALL vehicles but there is nothing more disconcerning than shelling out $$$ on a new vehicle and then, having problems with it.)
jlawrence....as kyfdx said, it was Performance Toyota on Rt 4 in Fairfield. If you're in the market, regardless of the problem I had with the Tacoma, I'd recommend them highly.
I had bought from them before. They move an awful lot of vehicles. While they are "down" on stock in trucks, they do have a ton of Camrys, Corollas, etc. They also had a good number of "demos". They had a beautiful '04 Tacoma, brand new that I almost pulled the trigger on. It's red and had a red cap on the back. There was such a huge difference between the '04 and the '05 Tacoma, I opted for the '05. While we didn't talk money, I got the impression they would have let it go for low $20s. It was totally loaded sitting out front.
They also had 3-4 4Runners, but they were all "LIMITEDs". MSRP well north of $40K. They had some nice "demo" Sequoias and 4Runners, but again, they were all Limted versions and even with "demo discounts", would have been much more than I wanted to spend. They didn't have much in the way of stock on SR5 4 Runners (mine was supposedly the last one they'll get in for the '05 MY).
They had a bunch of Highlanders....even 4-5 hybrid versions (they made it a point to tell me those were MSRP only, no negotiations....all around $40K).
They had a couple of Prious....again no negotiations. They tell you that upfront before they even take you on a test drive.
I spent so much time there, it was an education since I was able to "eavesdrop" on many negotiations going on in their cubicles for all different types of vehicles.
I had my ducks in a row with invoice and MSRPs for both the 4Runner and Tacoma.. Just from what I noticed and what I eavesdropped on, I'd say Camrys and Corollas were going about $500 over invoice, you keep any rebates. Hybrids of any type, were all MSRP. Trucks/SUVs were going for $500-$1,000 over invoice....with the Limited models closer to $1,000 over invoice and base models closer to $500 over invoice. They even had some "pimp my ride" trucks/SUVs with added "gee-gaws" that looked like they belonged in a bad MTV video than as used as a real truck. But, those drew a crowd....mostly appealing to the "teen set".
I'd recommend them highly. If you want a good salesperson, who really cares for her customers, let me know and I'll e-mail you her name.
one thing to remember, the dealer really didn't have to be involved in this. Once they sold the truck, and problems were really between Graphicguy and Toyota. The dealer had no obligation to take it back. They really just had to attempt to fix any problems under warranty.
ANy lemon law action would have taken the dealer completely out of th emix, since that would have been against Toyota directly.
Anything the dealer did was just for good will and customer relations, including the loaner car. SO, it does sound like they went to the mat to get the situation resolved (well, maybe not the service manager...).
I dunno, stick. If you buy a bad lot of strawberries from Safeway, do you then have to take it up with the Grower? No, Safeway takes 'em back. The Dealer is part of Toyota's distribution channell, it's the only way toyota interacts with their customers, and so it is the only channel for selling and taking back returned merchandise. I bet it's even in the contract the dealer has with the manufacturer that they provide a certain level of customer service, kinda like first line tech support.
Not to mention it would be a horrendous customer service move. "Yeah, we sold you the car, but that's really not our problem. We sell it, but we don't actually stand behind anything we sell, and really, your satisfaction is not our concern once you drive it off the lot."
still a bit different. Toyota really has to authorize a buy back, otherwise the dealer is likely to get stuck with a truck they may not be able to resell. I don't remember the chronology, but the truck was OK for a while, then developed a problem, through no fault of the dealer. At that point, it becomes a toyota issue.
I agree that if you drive off the lot and a mile down the road the engine falls out, the dealer should try to undo the deal (even though thye may not have to legally). But, where do you draw the line? What if the brake failure happened at 1,000 miles? 2K?
You see the same issues on other threads, like the Odyssey buyer that had a tranny fail after a couple of days. SHoudl the dealer take a return on that one, or just do the warrantty repair?
Cars are a little different than many other products, in that the seller has no warranty or return policy (not like buying a mower at Sears), although there are stores that do not take returns under any circumstance on electronics (that is, if your new TV is defective, call the maker but don't bring it back to the sotre).
Think of the car dealer like a realtor. Once the money changes hands, ain't their problem!
I think there's a little "truth" in both your scearios.
But, in this instance, it was a safety issue....that is "brake failure". It would have been one thing if the dealer said "well, the cause of the failure was the master cylinder and we replaced it so we did our due diligence". Fact is, the dealership's service personnel couldn't diagnose it nor duplicate it (although, there was plenty of evidence something wasn't right). They were thoroughly willing to put it back into my hands and on the road.
I'll not address their willingness to put this vehicle back on the road. I do think liability issues entered into the equation with most of the dealership's management (Service Manager being the only exception) and the Toyota Region. It's clear, if it happened again, with more serious concequences, both Toyota and the dealership would have had a sizeable lawsuit on their hands (not to mention, perhaps me quietly "resting in peace"). The dealership would have been liable for saying they put the vehicle back into my hands with a "couldn't find anything wrong" statement and Toyota for building a defective truck (and in turn, not authorizing a buyback).
Past the warranty period (36K miles), I could see both the dealership and Toyota washing their hands of the issue.
The dealership is a Toyota agent. The dealership (since they do service and is the instrument used for warranty) and Toyota (as the manufacturer) are both involved. If a Toyota product caused the owner bodily injury or death during the warranty period due to a safety issue AND the Toyota dealership couldn't repair the issue after being warned, there is equal liability for at least the warranty period.
I can see the same being true of steering issues if they arise. Tires, which are also safety issues, are warranted by the tire manufacturers. But, we see how Ford was pulled into the fray when the Firestone debacle arose a few years ago on Explorers.
Having a sqeak, rattle, leak, paint chips, or any other cosmetic or non-safety related warranty issue isn't going to carry the same seriousness for liability. Nor, would I consider them reasons to buy back a vehicle. TSB or recall should be issued, but not a buyback.
Comments
Does it impact a dealer sales of a model if a Mfr announces an end of life date (like VW did with the R32, and probably many others I cannot think of...).
And what happens to resale value? Did Oldsmobile blue book crash once GM decided to close that division?
-thene
Style, comfort, and performance are more important to me than resale. But that's ME. I have been following your posts and I agree with you and the other dealer folks who post here. So much so that I purchased my last three GM cars from the same dealership 130 miles from my home in VA because of sales AND service considerations. And yes, the selling dealer services all four of my cars as I am in that area almost every weekend, and they accommodate my erratic schedule. Simply put, they routinely demonstate they want my business, and go out of their way to make sure I am 100% satisfied.
I understand the need for ANY business to make money to stay in business. I agree with others who don't understand why it's okay to wring every last $$$ from a car dealer but don't hesitate to pay full price on furniture, clothing, etc. As someone who worked retail for 21 years, I know markup. We routinely held 30% off, 1/2 off "closeout" sales, and still made plenty of $$$. For example, I sold 4-ply silk crepe for $64.99 per yard, yes, per yard, that cost us $9 per yard. But then again, my customers were used to paying hundreds of $$$ for clothing from Nordstroms and other high-end stores. When they discovered they could have custom clothing for 1/2 the going price of retail, that same custom-made garment became a bargain. And again, we still made plenty of $$$.
Am I worried? Not really ... the L-series was built for 5 or 6 model years and the same platform was used for the (cancelled) Cadillac Catera as well as some Saab models. Same with the engine ... a 54-degree V6. As long as parts are available, I plan on keeping the car for a while.
Does it impact a dealer sales of a model if a Mfr announces an end of life date (like VW did with the R32, and probably many others I cannot think of...).
And what happens to resale value? Did Oldsmobile blue book crash once GM decided to close that division?
It's one version of a model - it's not liked they said they're killing the Chevy brand. Besides, they've sold what 2-300 of them? I dont' think the resale value is gonna get any worse than it already is.
My question is - Why couldn't General Motors. Aren't there any adults in charge over there ? Didn't they learn anything from the Aztek ?
Like the Honda Element and the Scion, it was a gamble ... nobody knew if they would make it (even though all the articles say so - now) it's impossible to figure what will make it and what will fail, the Ford Escape is a perfect example ... every info source called it dead in 20 months, now they sell everyone they can build -- it's a gamble ...
Terry
Dealer fee's are like any other fee's, you shop them .... import dealers have the highest fee's on the planet, check any Bimmer, Audi, Yota, Benz dealer ...
Just like boat dealers, they may try to charge $2,400 for transport and set-up that cost them $800, or furniture stores that charge $1,900 for a chair that cost them $400, or how this bank charges $9,500 for closing costs and the one down the street charges $6,000 ..... no sense in getting into a banter about all this stuff, you just do your homework, shop the market and get your best price and go on ..... the point is, whether the money comes out of your right pocket or your left pocket, it comes out of the same pair of pants ... best price wins, but I would never gamble any service for a few hundred bucks ....
Terry
I didn't realize the MAXX was that much of a flop. I hope they sold enought there'll be some around used in the future... I thought it was a pretty cool car.
There's your problem, my tastes run at right angles to mainstream America... gimme a minivan with a stick shift, please!
About the original question:
I'm not so sure killing off a car always hurts resale.
The Olds cars have not taken that big of a hit... maybe initially, but that's over, they're just another used car. Especially since they can be serviced at Buick or Chevy or Pontiac stores just fine.
Other cars can increase in value. Camaro/Firebird..? Honda Civic Hatch? Camry or Corolla wagon? Those are all good merchandise if in nice shape, and you can't find them.
Tepid demand, near-zero supply = strong #'s
-Mathias
As for looks, Maxx isn't THAT ugly. When I first got it, people routinely came up to me, said it looked great, asked what it was. They were surprised when I said it was a Chevrolet. It's proven a lot more versatile than my last two sedans!
Is it true that hatches are only successful in the USA if they are 1) trendy foreigners, 2) hot performers, 3) all the above?
Try finding a nice clean low mile 02 Aurora V6 for cheap $$ .. dealers are paying the super strong $12's (and then some) for em' .... not bad for a "we're out of biz" company, especially when they were only $29 - New .....
GM, what weeeere you thinkin' .........?
Terry.
But killing off a stand alone brand in North America such as Daewoo, Fiat, Peugeot, Alfa Romeo, Lada, Yugo etc... will definately hurt the resale as dealer networks cease to exist and serviceability becomes a big issue. If you can't service or repair the car and parts cost an arm and a leg because they have to shipped from overseas then you have a problem.
At least for the general Joe and Jane Carbuyer, they are not interested in expensive to fix cars, but for enthusiasts some brands such as Alfa Romeo may be worth a lot more. Unfortunately there is more regular Joe Carbuyers than Joe Enthusiasts.
2016 Audi A7 3.0T S Line, 2021 Subaru WRX
I mean, what the heck are they talking about? They "thought" you owed them money? Wow! How are these people in business? Is that really the wording they used? And, heck, how did they let you drive off without fully paying?? It just makes no sense.
What does your contract say? Have you double-checked it? Some finance folks like to write things up real confusing-like. So just make SURE you don't really owe anything.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
IMHO, the Maxx isn't ugly - the sedan is. I think if they put the Equinox nose on it and made sold it as a fwd crossover, they'd do better.
I have to link it, since it is definitely copyrighted..
Edmunds Price Checker
Edmunds Lease Calculator
Did you get a good deal? Be sure to come back and share!
Edmunds Moderator
Dealership's Service Mgr just left me a voice mail. In short, he said my Tacoma checked out. He also said that he wanted the loaner car back "TODAY" and for me to come pick up my truck. I called him back and told him that was unacceptable since, even though they observed the brake pedal going all the way to the floor, their stance was it was "normal". He mentioned they couldn't replicate the "total brake failure" that happened to me.
Put a call into the GM of the dealership. Told him what the Service Manager said. He said they'd take my Tacoma back, but they had none like it to put me in another one (V6, 4X4, automatic, Shortbed). Matter of fact, he said the only ones he had were "prerunners". He then asked if I'd be interested in a 4Runner. He said nothing of finding another Tacoma close to what mine was.
At this point, I've got two choices from what I can tell. Go through "lemon law" proceedings (which I really don't want to do since it's a lengthy, time consuming process), or look at a 4 Runner in the hopes that I they'll not try to recoup their "loss" on the Tacoma.
I'll assume a 4Runner is more expensive than a Tacoma to boot.
Haven't driven a 4 Runner. Opinions?
Did you plan on using the Tacoma as a truck? That is, loads of dirt, mulch, etc. in the bed? Hauling around motorcycles and the like? If so, then a 4Runner isn't going to do those things very well. OTOH, a Tacoma won't seat 5 comfortably.
My guess is that the 4Runner is going to cost more than the Tacoma, all things being equal. If you want the 4Runner, go for it. If you want a new Tacoma to replace yours, stick to your guns and get the dealer to find one similar to what you had .. I can't believe that it would be that hard!
Yeah, you might have to give up or get an option or two in the process, but you have to ask yourself if it is worth it.
I'm rather tired of this whole ordeal, though. At first, all I wanted them to do was replace my truck. Now, I just want to be through with it. We've been "back and forth" for two weeks on this whole debacle.
Don't know what I'll decide.
they'll try to wear you down and just make you take something you don't want because you want it all to be done with. when you spend as much money as you do on a vehicle, you should get what you want, period. ask them politely to get a truck similar to the one you had. if you feel up to it, (and this is your choice) tell them you'll pay to have them pick it up ($100 is MORE than enough for that). be firm, and polite, and tell them you understand this is a unique situation, but just replacing it with something you DONT want is unacceptable - after all, you didnt buy something you didnt want in the first place!
good luck!
-thene
Terry.
To close this saga out, Toyota dealer totally unwound the deal on the Tacoma with the bad brakes. Service manager swore nothing was wrong with it. That said, they loaded the Tacoma on a carrier to send it back to CA plant for "analysis".
While the dealer did say they'd try to locate another Tacoma just like the original one I bought, I vented my frustration as how long it took to bring this whole scenario to a conclusion (in a firm but polite way).
They found an identical Tacoma at another dealership 3 hours away and said they'd do a dealer trade. No extra money out of my pocket for the dealer trade. Couldn't get it until at the earliest, next Tuesday or Wednesday.
They then offered to let me use a 4Runner as a loaner until the Tacoma came in. Put me in a blue 4WD SR5 V6 base model with bigger tires and sunroof as the only options. Just came off the delivery truck with 3 miles on the odo. They said drive it over the weekend to see if I liked it. You can see where this is going.
I drove it around Friday night and a good portion of Saturday. I liked it. Went in to the dealer yesterday afternoon, knowing it was going to cost more. Ended up buying it for about $900 over invoice before the $500 rebate. They didn't get rich on the deal. But, I did have to pony up another $2K over the price of the Tacoma to get it. Told them to forget about the dealer trade.
Just glad to be through with the whole ordeal. Got a truck that, while not perfect for what I intend to use it for, is close enough (hauling big stuff....running on dirt back roads to a summer cabin....winter driving). I can't just hose it out, but it feels substantial enough to get some serious work. Most importantly, the brakes work just fine.
I'm going to assume that the Tacoma was an anomalie. That the 4Runner will be very reliable and that it will hold its value well. Agree?
**I'm going to assume that the Tacoma was an anomalie. That the 4Runner will be very reliable and that it will hold its value well. Agree?** ...
I agree .. sometimes (in a blue moon) something happens to a vehicle in production ..... little gremlins, maybe terrorists, maybe somebody dropped their contacts into the works -- who knows.?
It happens in all types, all prices and varieties, my buddy is still waiting for the "Fat Daddy's" to fly in to check out his 05 Mini Cooper Convert with 800 miles -- turn on the air and the little bugger quits (not good at 65 mph on I-95) drop the top and the windows don't work .. that said, my dealer buddy has been wonderful and he dropped him into a 04 330i so he won't be inconvenienced ..... we will see what the "Cooper Cops" find out in the next few days .. my theory is, there is a Voodoo doll somewhere in the works from his ex-wife .....
The dealer did the right thing, so I'm glad things are working out for you ....
Terry.
Edmunds Price Checker
Edmunds Lease Calculator
Did you get a good deal? Be sure to come back and share!
Edmunds Moderator
I've got an autox buddy who has one of those new Minis. They are quirky little runabouts by his account. Can't complain about having a 330i loaner, though.
From what I understand from the Toyota dealership's GM, Toyota was so concerned with the brake issue, the Region wants to get it back to NUMMI to inspect it. So much for worrying about resale disclosures. They "suspect" it's a supplier issue with the cap that goes on top of the master cylinder since they said it showed some "leakage" on it. Their initial assessment was at certain temps, the cap was allowing the fluid to overheat and "boil out" since brake pressure was dropping well below spec. Bottom line, they really don't know anything for certain though and it was clearly a problem your run of the mill tech wouldn't be able to diagnose (which in turn, caused the Service Manager to say they could find nothing wrong). Apparently the 'yoda region guy(s) were the ones that told the dealership to unwind the deal.
I was having a bout of wishful thinking that they'd sell me another vehicle at cost. They didn't feel benvolent enough to go quite that far. Got a year's worth of free oil changes and tire rotations out of the deal for my troubles, though.
You'll like the 4Runner too...Great cars!
You're on the internet now. You have a wealth of information at your fingertips. You can get invoice from Edmunds, KBB, CarsDirect, NADA, etc. You got Terry in RWTIV giving you the straight poop on used, as well as the above guides. By all means do your comparison shopping, but with the info that's out there, you should have a pretty good idea what a good deal is within a couple hundred bucks. If you don't you're a...well, I won't say it because our benevolent overlords would delete this post quicker than a hobo eats a meat sandwich.
The days of the Dealer holding all the cars shrouded in a cloud of mysterious fees and dealer add ons and Ajusted Market Value is over.
I wonder if Bobst used the Bobst approach to get his wife? "Hey baby, I don't know you, but here's my marriage proposal:
* Every saturday I get to go fishing with the boys.
* I like pot roast and expect it twice a month
* Don't talk to me about your friends problems, I may nod and say Ummhmm, but I'm not really listening.
* I fart ALOT
* I'll remember our anniversaries for the first 5 years, after that it's a crapshoot.
Take it or leave it, I'm heading out the door in 1...2...3...Okay, last chance...
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
MODERATOR /ADMINISTRATOR
Find me at kirstie_h@edmunds.com - or send a private message by clicking on my name.
2015 Kia Soul, 2021 Subaru Forester (kirstie_h), 2024 GMC Sierra 1500 (mr. kirstie_h)
Review your vehicle
Mark156
But yes, he went from a mid size PU to a mid size SUV. Just get a utility trailer, and it will do the same thing.
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
I am glad to hear that all has worked out in your favor in this vehicle saga...
But I do have some questions on why you did what you did...
I have been following most of your posts and don't quite understand why you did not get another Tacoma? Getting a 4Runner is not the same thing as getting the Tacoma and one would think that if you bought the Tacoma to begin with there must have been a reason you did so...maybe it was the utility of the truck that you needed for hauling things or just doing your normal homeowner stuff....
Getting a SUV vice a truck is a big change in my mind...someone on here said get a trailer and you can do the same thing...but doesn't that just mask the reason for getting the truck to begin with? Bottom line is that an SUV is not the same as a truck no matter what way you look at...it is truck like I will give you that...but you loose the ability to have a true utility truck...
From some of your earlier posts it seemed as though you were going to stick to your guns and get another Tacoma with the same options as before (or as close as you could get) and not pay a dime more out of your pocket...
Don't take this the wrong way but I think you played right into the dealers hand...they got you into a 4Runner for more money and I'm sure Toyota will find something wrong with the truck and reimburse the dealership. No matter what that dealership would have told me...I would have made them get my new Tacoma...even if they had to go out of state...if they would have tried hard enough they would have found the same truck as what you had before...but to them the sale was already done and they felt like they were doing you a favor by doing what they did...again, I am glad things worked out in your favor but I just don't see you ending up in the same spot as you were when you bought the Tacoma to begin with...and if that was not the case then I think you would have bought the 4Runner to begin with...on any account, enjoy your 4Runner...they are nice SUV's and will run forever...IMO.
The Tundra is big. If there's any sort of platform sharing, I would imagine the Tundra would be similar to the Sequoia.
Big difference was in the interiors. Both have nice interiors, but they're very different from each other inside. 4Runner comes with more standard features and also rides/handles more like a car than a truck. 4Runner's back seat is bigger, too. The Tacoma's 4WD is different as it was strictly for part-time use. 4Runner's 4WD has stability and traction control, hill holder, etc as standard features. You can also use it's 4WD system full time even on hard/dry pavement.
I can collapse the rear seats in the 4Runner to give me all the room I need for hauling. I've got an "A" frame summer house on a lake near Georgetown, KY (I live outside of Cincinnati) that I use on weekends . It's on a dirt road. The (dirt/gravel) driveway is on an incline. I haul "stuff" back and forth from home to the cabin, so 4WD was a must. 4Runner handles and rides better than the Tacoma, but for a pick-up, the Tacoma rode/handled quite well.
We get a healthy snow storm once per winter (sometimes more). So 4WD will come in handy for that use, too.
As I look back, either the 4Runner or the Tacoma would have fit the bill for what I was looking for. Having the composite bed of the Tacoma led me to think it would be nice to be able to just hose it out if it got dirty. That was the big "selling point" of the Tacoma. That said, I'm not hauling loose dirt, mulch and rocks, so the composite bed really wasn't as much of an issue as I originally thought it would be. That's the only reason I agreed to settling for the 4Runner to replace the "brakeless" Tacoma. Otherwise, I would have stuck to my guns to get another Tacoma.
Tacoma is less expensive than a 4Runner, though. By the time I added the cost of a cap and running boards to the Tacoma, they'd probably be priced about the same (4Runner comes with running boards standard and it doesn't need a cap). Both the Tacoma and the 4Runner are SR5 models. You can easily get well into the $40K+ range with a 4Runner if you want a lux wagon with leather, V8, DVD, Navigation, etc however.
Base model 4WD 4Runner (which is what my SR5 is) will sticker in the $31K-$33K. range. I bought mine right around the $29K number (it has a sunroof, spoiler and roof rack plus some other minor options).
A 4WD Tacoma SR5 all loaded up with automatic trans, TRD, etc will sticker for $29K. I originally bought mine for around $27K.
Hope that helps.
If the name of the game is "Punish The Dealership", then you're right of course...
But graphic just needed a new vehicle, and if it turns out he likes the 4R better than the Tacoma, so much the better. The dealership was doing alright by him; they didn't build the truck... so I don' t think something that works for them is automatically bad for the consumer.
So much energy is invested by car buyers to make sure the dealership does not make "too much" money. And comparatively little effort is made to get the right vehicle.
Having found the right car, then I'm perfectly happy to work towards a skinny deal :-)
-Mathias
If the name of the game is "Punish The Dealership", then you're right of course...
That is not what I meant...all I was saying is that he went in to buy a product from a business...this product was defective (for whatever reason)...in most cases you should be able to return that product and get another one of equal value. Regardless if we are talking about a lawn mower or in this case a truck...
The dealership from the start was reluctant to do anything at first...but because of his persistants they folded and finally listen to reason.
Now having said that...why did they try and put him in another vehicle that is so much different than the one he had...Tacoma's and 4Runners are different...we can reasons to ourselves that they are similiar but in fact they are not...
Again, let me state that I am glad that things worked out...but if a dealership is to maintain its integrity then they really need to look at the consumer...Now I realize that the dealership might have to weed out the people who are trying to go back on a car deal but in this case it was a legit safety issue...and if I am not mistaken it was the dealership who brought up the subject of trying out a 4Runner instead of just getting him the Tacoma for which he had origially.
I am glad he is happy with his 4Runner...and I know he will enjoy it...but for someone like myself who has no vested interest on either side it just seems the dealership took him where THEY wanted to go instead of just doing the right thing and get him another Tacoma regardless of where they had to go to get it.
One way or another the dealership did come through in some sense...but if they didn't I sure this gentlemen would have went straight up the ladder as he should have to the regional director for toyota...
In the end it sounds like everyone is happy which I know was the objective to begin with...I just don't think the way it came about was 100% pure...IMO of course.
Good motoring!!
MODERATOR /ADMINISTRATOR
Find me at kirstie_h@edmunds.com - or send a private message by clicking on my name.
2015 Kia Soul, 2021 Subaru Forester (kirstie_h), 2024 GMC Sierra 1500 (mr. kirstie_h)
Review your vehicle
There were a couple of different ways I could have gone. While documenting everything and what everyone said, I felt confident that if I went the "lemon law" route, I would have prevailed with a full refund. The downside is that would have taken months. I wasn't particularly fond of the idea of letting the issue drag out that long. Plus, that took the dealership out of the equation. My understanding, particularly with Toyota, is customer satisfaction is very important. I wanted the dealership to have "skin in the game" as I'm going to have to deal with them for, at least another 4-7 years on this vehicle.
The dealership agreed to get me into another Tacoma identical to the one I originally bought (right down to the silver color) on a dealer trade.
They knew I was frustrated and was getting more frustrated as a resolution drug on. Do I wish they would have had an identical Tacoma in stock that they would have swapped me immediately? Of course. I do understand that they had "due diligence" that they had to research to protect themselves from someone who "willy-nilly" wanted to unwind a deal because of buyer's remorse. I accepted that reality.
In the interest of speeding up an acceptable resolution, they offered to let me drive a "loaner", brand spanking new 4Runner with 3 miles on the odometer. This is after they already had me in a "free loaner" for the previous two weeks (a Pilot from their sister Honda dealership, right next door). They made the 4Runner offer after they were aware that I was going to buy a "cap" for the Tacoma. As the GM of the dealership said, if that's the case, "you might want to take a look at a 4Runner". He did so by pointing out that the pricing of the Tacoma plus an aftermarket cap would put me mighty close to the 4Runner's price. He was right. They let me use the NEW 4Runner over the weekend, with no money out of my pocket. He made it clear, they'd abide by any decision I came to.
I could have rejected the 4Runner and they would have done the "dealer trade" for the replacement Tacoma. Again, I had the checkbook.
They totally "unwound" the Tacoma deal like it never happened. All my money that I paid for the Tacoma came back to me. The keys to the Tacoma went back to them. Did I get the 4Runner back of invoice? No! Did the dealership get rich on the deal? No! I thought the price was fair for the 4Runner. They sold it to me at a substantial discount (by about 10% off MSRP). They still made money. The salesperson probably pocketed a hundred or so. I was OK with that. They threw in some free oil changes and tire rotations for my trouble.
I genuinely believe they were trying to resolve this to my satisfaction (although, I did sense the Service Manager to be a little reluctant since it was a reflection on his dept that he couldn't resolve the issue). At no time did I feel I was being "upsold" to spend more money. The GM, SM, Salesperson made a compelling case in finding out what I really needed/wanted and the cash outlay I'd have to make in either instance (additional cash outlay for a Tacoma "cap" or additional cost of going with the 4Runner).
The choice was always mine.
I have no idea what will happen to the original Tacoma other than they hauled it away to the CA plant. I don't know what, if anything, Toyota reimbursed the dealership for the Tacoma. Moreover, I don't care.
I'm glad to hear that all is well with your resolution...
I guess maybe I misread some of your earlier posts...for that I stand corrected...
Maybe it was the Service Manger post I read and thought that was the view of the entire dealership...my bad...
Good luck to you and your new 4Runner...you'll get a cool 200K plus miles out of her...
Happy motoring...
You received a price you are happy with. They made a little money on the deal.
It sounds like a good deal to me.
I would be curious to know which dealer you were dealing with as I buy most of my vehicles in Cincinnati.
(I know that manufacturing defects occur on ALL vehicles but there is nothing more disconcerning than shelling out $$$ on a new vehicle and then, having problems with it.)
Edmunds Price Checker
Edmunds Lease Calculator
Did you get a good deal? Be sure to come back and share!
Edmunds Moderator
I had bought from them before. They move an awful lot of vehicles. While they are "down" on stock in trucks, they do have a ton of Camrys, Corollas, etc. They also had a good number of "demos". They had a beautiful '04 Tacoma, brand new that I almost pulled the trigger on. It's red and had a red cap on the back. There was such a huge difference between the '04 and the '05 Tacoma, I opted for the '05. While we didn't talk money, I got the impression they would have let it go for low $20s. It was totally loaded sitting out front.
They also had 3-4 4Runners, but they were all "LIMITEDs". MSRP well north of $40K. They had some nice "demo" Sequoias and 4Runners, but again, they were all Limted versions and even with "demo discounts", would have been much more than I wanted to spend. They didn't have much in the way of stock on SR5 4 Runners (mine was supposedly the last one they'll get in for the '05 MY).
They had a bunch of Highlanders....even 4-5 hybrid versions (they made it a point to tell me those were MSRP only, no negotiations....all around $40K).
They had a couple of Prious....again no negotiations. They tell you that upfront before they even take you on a test drive.
I spent so much time there, it was an education since I was able to "eavesdrop" on many negotiations going on in their cubicles for all different types of vehicles.
I had my ducks in a row with invoice and MSRPs for both the 4Runner and Tacoma.. Just from what I noticed and what I eavesdropped on, I'd say Camrys and Corollas were going about $500 over invoice, you keep any rebates. Hybrids of any type, were all MSRP. Trucks/SUVs were going for $500-$1,000 over invoice....with the Limited models closer to $1,000 over invoice and base models closer to $500 over invoice. They even had some "pimp my ride" trucks/SUVs with added "gee-gaws" that looked like they belonged in a bad MTV video than as used as a real truck. But, those drew a crowd....mostly appealing to the "teen set".
I'd recommend them highly. If you want a good salesperson, who really cares for her customers, let me know and I'll e-mail you her name.
ANy lemon law action would have taken the dealer completely out of th emix, since that would have been against Toyota directly.
Anything the dealer did was just for good will and customer relations, including the loaner car. SO, it does sound like they went to the mat to get the situation resolved (well, maybe not the service manager...).
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
Not to mention it would be a horrendous customer service move. "Yeah, we sold you the car, but that's really not our problem. We sell it, but we don't actually stand behind anything we sell, and really, your satisfaction is not our concern once you drive it off the lot."
I agree that if you drive off the lot and a mile down the road the engine falls out, the dealer should try to undo the deal (even though thye may not have to legally). But, where do you draw the line? What if the brake failure happened at 1,000 miles? 2K?
You see the same issues on other threads, like the Odyssey buyer that had a tranny fail after a couple of days. SHoudl the dealer take a return on that one, or just do the warrantty repair?
Cars are a little different than many other products, in that the seller has no warranty or return policy (not like buying a mower at Sears), although there are stores that do not take returns under any circumstance on electronics (that is, if your new TV is defective, call the maker but don't bring it back to the sotre).
Think of the car dealer like a realtor. Once the money changes hands, ain't their problem!
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
But, in this instance, it was a safety issue....that is "brake failure". It would have been one thing if the dealer said "well, the cause of the failure was the master cylinder and we replaced it so we did our due diligence". Fact is, the dealership's service personnel couldn't diagnose it nor duplicate it (although, there was plenty of evidence something wasn't right). They were thoroughly willing to put it back into my hands and on the road.
I'll not address their willingness to put this vehicle back on the road. I do think liability issues entered into the equation with most of the dealership's management (Service Manager being the only exception) and the Toyota Region. It's clear, if it happened again, with more serious concequences, both Toyota and the dealership would have had a sizeable lawsuit on their hands (not to mention, perhaps me quietly "resting in peace"). The dealership would have been liable for saying they put the vehicle back into my hands with a "couldn't find anything wrong" statement and Toyota for building a defective truck (and in turn, not authorizing a buyback).
Past the warranty period (36K miles), I could see both the dealership and Toyota washing their hands of the issue.
The dealership is a Toyota agent. The dealership (since they do service and is the instrument used for warranty) and Toyota (as the manufacturer) are both involved. If a Toyota product caused the owner bodily injury or death during the warranty period due to a safety issue AND the Toyota dealership couldn't repair the issue after being warned, there is equal liability for at least the warranty period.
I can see the same being true of steering issues if they arise. Tires, which are also safety issues, are warranted by the tire manufacturers. But, we see how Ford was pulled into the fray when the Firestone debacle arose a few years ago on Explorers.
Having a sqeak, rattle, leak, paint chips, or any other cosmetic or non-safety related warranty issue isn't going to carry the same seriousness for liability. Nor, would I consider them reasons to buy back a vehicle. TSB or recall should be issued, but not a buyback.
Then again, I'm not a lawyer.