Any Questions for a Car Dealer?

boomchek · December 2005

What kind of car are you trading in? Is it really old?

rroyce10 · December 2005

.... **let's say an Acura TL. Dealer has some new '05s on the lot, and a bunch of '06s. Change between model years is, at best, minimal ...**

If it truly is a TL and not a .. um .. a Lincoln LS, Audi, Benz, Bimmer .... then your better off in the 06 TL ....

TL's are super strong in the used market .. and the difference between a new 05/06 is less than $2grand and dealers are paying $28ish for used 05 TL's with miles in the 15/16k range - and getting $31ish on the retail side ... now if there was a $5/$8,000 difference between the two, then there would be something to consider ... even the ol' body style 03 TL's are seeing the strong $16's with heavy miles and getting the $19's on the retail side.

The big difference here is, folks aren't afraid of a high mileage Acura .. put some tall miles on a Benz and you might be suckin' the exhaust for awhile ...........

Terry.

rroyce10 · December 2005

.. ** I've been screwed over by dealer's before, plus I didn't get what I wanted on my trade-in anyway...**

I always love that part .. "I had a bad experience with my last wife, so I'll make sure my new wife pays for it" ..l.o.l....

Anyway ... they'll just hold the registration, plates and the title from the lender .... you owe, you pay - simple.

Terry.

imidazol97 · December 2005

>The big difference here is, folks aren't afraid of a high mileage Acura ..

That's surprised me for years. My neighbor buys Legends, 3.5RLs, after they have 90-130K on them. Great looking as far a paint (poor style), and he accepts the high maintenance they need occasionally and drives them commuting to Cincy, Indy, and back daily.

graphicguy · December 2005

Thanks, all!

I've actually got my eye on a black/black "demo" '05 TL. It's got a hair under 3K miles, but never titled. It's got the navi, automatic and the rest of the fun stuff.

I'm thinking somewhere in the $32K range for the demo '05. Same car in '06 dress, no miles, should be in the $34K range. Am I close?

leomort · December 2005

just curious as to hear the opinions of car dealer on where the industry is going with all these latest deals. Ever since 9/11 the car industry has been doing heavily incented car sells: at first 0% financing, $0 down payments, then extended warranty's. Plus hefty cash back incentives on selective models (almost exclusively SUVs). Now I'm seeing, extended warranties, free maintenence and free gas for 2yrs. I watch the car industry as an indication as to how the economy is doing. I'm getting concerned that there is bubble that's eventually going to have to burst here. Anyone here share that concern? I'm mean how long can the public keep buying new cars?

Leo

isellhondas · December 2005

It sounds like you are trying to justify being dishonest.

A mistake was made and you know this.

There are no excuses for simply doing what is right. "Karma" has nothing to do with this either.

bobst · December 2005

"they'll just hold the registration, plates and the title from the lender"

Terry, I will admit that you might know more about the car business than I do.

However, it seems to me that the dealer has sold the car and received payment for it. Therefore, they must give the title and registration to the lender. Otherwise, they can be prosecuted for breach of contract and put in jail.

isellhondas · December 2005

I don't doubt your wife may have been snookered into a lease rather than an installment contract.

Still, didn't she read what she was signing?

mwhitt · December 2005

Let's say for the moment that you can avoid payment, and my guess is not...

I certainly hope you are in an area with a few Infiniti dealers nearby, as I would not plan on having my service done there.

bobst · December 2005

Isell, suppose I offer to pay $10K for one of your used cars. Then you sell me the car for $8K.

How am I being dishonest?

I never said I would not accept your price of $8K.

One time I went to the store, saw an item for $10, and wanted to buy it for that price. When I carried it to the cashier, they said the price was only $8, so I paid it. How was that being dishonest?

bdr127 · December 2005

However, it seems to me that the dealer has sold the car and received payment for it. Therefore, they must give the title and registration to the lender. Otherwise, they can be prosecuted for breach of contract and put in jail. ]

Dealer doesn't get paid until they do all their paperwork with the lender. If they don't send that to the lender, then they don't get paid.

It would be interesting to see the dealer put out an APB to the police to be on the lookout for an 06 G35 without a registration....

isellhondas · December 2005

Bobst,

I think both of know this situation was different. a mistake was made and both parties know this.

Now, the person who bought the car is trying to justify not paying for the difference.

"They didn't give me what I wanted for my trade"

"I've been shafted by dealers in the past"

A person has ethics or they do not!

mark156 · December 2005

I would imagine $3,000 would be an awfully large bite for the dealer to take on any car.

It seems like this should not have happened as the "price" of an automobile and customer experience would be so important to a dealer. I know mistakes happen but there should be at least two people that have to check contract numbers before it's submitted to the customer for a signature.

Honestly, I would pay the difference because you agreed to the other price. If it was $300, I'm sure the dealer wouldn't call you and it would come out of the salesmans bonus, etc.

$3,000 is a lot of money and I wouldn't want to risk service problems. If anything malfunctions with your car after a service visit, you will automatically assume they are "messing" with you. :sick:

Mark :surprise:

jasmith52 · December 2005

Well just to stoke the fire a bit...

lets suppose that you had paid $3k more than you had agreed to.

Do you suppose that there is any chance at all of going back to the dealer and getting the price lowered by $3k.

I think they'd have a good laugh at you.

Kirstie_H · December 2005

Hi leomort,
The best place to have this conversation is on our News & Views board. We have a number of active discussions about the future of the automotive industry, and if you don't see one you like, feel free to start a new one!

isellhondas · December 2005

I'm going to edit my original reply here.

Dealers get cars with hidden problems traded in every day. The transmission slips in the morning when it's cold, so they make real sure it's warmed up real well when they bring it in. Maybe a leaking head gasket doesn't cause the car to overheat until it's driven an hour....that sort of thing.

I guess it's up to you if you want to be honest about a known problem.

Kirstie_H · December 2005

Do you suppose that there is any chance at all of going back to the dealer and getting the price lowered by $3k.

Not a chance in Hades, and car dealers on this board have said so in the past - you have no recourse if you realize you paid "too much" for a vehicle. If you walked back to the dealership and told them you made a mistake, there is approximately a ZERO percent chance of getting any money back.

C'mon dealers... you know this is true!!

isellhondas · December 2005

Nobody would laugh. Any honest dealer would correct the problem and redo the paperwork.

Mistakes happen and there is only one right thing to do.

I can't believe people think this it's OK to justify this!

isellhondas · December 2005

I guess I need to go back and re-read the original post.

I thought it was a paperwork mistake.

savvyknight · December 2005

I find it amusing that the longer I read these posts, the more I realize that customers are more dishonest than dealers.

First of all, if someone agrees to a price and there is a paperwork error, than the difference should be paid. I've been in automotive management for many years and I personally know dozens of sales and finance managers. I don't know a single one who would try to keep the customer's money if the situation were reversed.

Then we have someone with a gasket problem asking how to sneak it by a dealer on an appraisal!

Wake up people! There are more car dealers who try to do the right thing than the wrong. Maybe the consumer should be trying to do the right thing as well.

Kirstie_H · December 2005

But, as you just recently mentioned to someone else, didn't the dealer read what he signed? I'm afraid it cuts both ways. Dealers always expect that the customer should read what he/she signs, and you've told others in this discussion many times that they are out of luck once the paperwork is signed.

Now, having said that, the right thing to do is to correct an error. It's the most ethical response to this situation. However, I don't think it would happen if the situation were reversed, and I don't think it'll happen in this case.

savvyknight · December 2005

No offense, but you're flat wrong and obviously don't know much about the retail automotive industry.

bdr127 · December 2005

Not a chance in Hades, and car dealers on this board have said so in the past - you have no recourse if you realize you paid "too much" for a vehicle. If you walked back to the dealership and told them you made a mistake, there is approximately a ZERO percent chance of getting any money back.

I don't agree... I know people that have had similar experiences, and their dealers were very agreeable and accommodating.

One person was promised that a particular car would be "Certified" through the manufacturer and agreed to the accompanying interest rate/warranty and monthly payment. They did all the paperwork and everything. Then the certification fell through and the car wasn't certified.... The dealer ate the difference in giving the customer the same rate, warranty, and payment that they promised. We guessed that it was about a $4000 mistake. The dealer very easily could have just said "Sorry, but the terms have changed now", but they were very forthright and made right on their promise.

The other person had a similar situation as the original poster, but reversed (dealer charged too much). The dealer caught the mistake a day later and even offered to bring the new paperwork to his house to re-sign, rather than having to make a trip to the dealer. A different dealer than the previous story, but again, very accommodating.

isellhondas · December 2005

And I agree, that dealer is probably out of luck if the buyer refuses to pay the 3000.00. Yeah, kristie, the dealer SHOULD read what they sign but the finance Manager usually doesn't have a clue as to what they agreed to.

It was probably the Desk Manager who made the mistake.

And, kirstie, you ARE wrong. A dealer has a reputation to live us to. no honest dealer is going to take advantage of an obvious error.

It's like some people rub their hands together with glee when a dealer makes a costly mistake.

Kirstie_H · December 2005

You're right, isell, and I sure would hope that a dealer would be honest. But I've been taken before by my own lack of business saavy + unscrupulous dealerships. We all know they're out there. I would love to believe that there are many honest dealerships that would correct such an error.

saavyknight, I have never been in the biz, but I have bought & sold many cars - I've had about 50% honest, good, and pleasant experiences, and the other 50% have been the reverse.

I do not rub my hands with glee at anyone's misfortune, by the way.

isellhondas · December 2005

There are definatly a LOT of underhanded car dealerships out there. I have first hand experience myself.

savvyknight · December 2005

Look, I'm not here to defend every car dealership in every situation.

That said, let me enlighten you on something. I've been in this business for 12 years (right out of college). I've been a sales consultant, leasing manager, sales manager, and finance manager (current position).

I've been personally involved in over 20,000 automotive transactions. That's probably a few more "buying and selling experiences" than what you have. I know dozens of managers and salespeople. I DO know what I am talking about. In fact, I can guarantee my knowledge of the retail auto business greatly outstrips 99% of the people on this board.

So many people go into a car dealership with negative expectations because of sites like this. They expect to get run over the coals. When they read sites like this one, they have their vision distorted from reality. No matter how good they are treated at a dealership, they think they are being "screwed over".

If you think that every thing a dealer tells you is a lie, (even if it's not), you are going to think that you had a bad experience. It's not hard to check a dealer's honesty in today's world. I guarantee you, nine out of ten trips to a dealer you will be treated honestly and fairly. If you find a bad dealer than don't go back!

But stop preaching things that you have no idea about. You have no basis to say that a dealer wouldn't refund money to a customer if a mistake was made in the dealer's favor. I have made mistakes, both in the dealer's favor and the customer's. I have always made my mistakes right by my customer. And, fortunately, my customer's have always been honest enough to make mistakes correct on their end as well.

qbrozen · December 2005

carsdirect is telling me $33,5 for an '06 auto navi in my area.

For a year older and hard demo miles, I personally wouldn't make the deal for anything over $31k. And even that would be a little tough to swallow ... so only if $2500 would make or break me.

if you don't mind, i'm going to keep living vicariously through you, by the way. The RX8 to the Mustang to the TL. I'm envious.

p.s. except i'd get the 6MT in the TL.

jasmith52 · December 2005

I guarantee you, nine out of ten trips to a dealer you will be treated honestly and fairly.

Well where I come from you are or you aren't (ethical).

It's not like if you're ethical 90 percent of the time then that's pretty good. In my book if you treat people ethically only 9 times out of ten then that would put you in the NOT ethical camp.

On the other hand, I do believe that the senior management at most dealers are ethical. Some of their salespeople...
- well lets just say I keep a hand on my wallet while I'm talking cars with smooth-talkin Eddy!

savvyknight · December 2005

I didn't say that good dealers are only ethical 90% of the time. Good dealers are ethical 100% of the time.

And, good dealers typically have good salespeople working for them.

Trust me, when I get complaints from a customer about a salesperson, it get handles immediately. If that salesperson did anything unethical or dishonest, then I help them free up their future.

benson1 · December 2005

'98 Subaru Outback Limited 135k miles, meticulously maintained. This summer we did the timing belt, water pump, etc for $1200. Then, it overheated, so we replaced the thermastat. Overheated again, and replaced the radiator. Overheated again and at this point and $1800 later, I'd just like to buy a new car. Preferably not a Subaru.

kdhspyder · December 2005

You have to look at the whole industry. There are a lot of problems with the Big 2+C that have been brought to light by massive giveaways. These problems are particular to these 3 companies. The shakeout will hurt certain people and communities but other areas are benefitting from it.

New Hyundai plant in Alabama; new Toyota plant in Texas; another new Toyota plant in Mich (?); the new Nissan plant in Miss; Honda plant for the Ridgeline.
The trend as you can see is from north to south.

All these manufacturers are having record month after record month with few incentives except in specific cases. Hyundai admittedly is trying to buy it's way up to the bigtime in order to fill the new plant in Ala. People are still leery about buying Big Rigs. The auto industry is in pretty good shape it's just going through a change. It's business as usual and life goes on.

isellhondas · December 2005

Why not a Subaru? They are good cars.

It has 135,000 miles!! Stuff happens to the best of cars!

jipster · December 2005

"Well what about he dealer...out of all the people, the finance manager didn't even notice...."

I agree. That's why you owe them ZIP...ZERO...NADAH.
Morally, ethically, spiritually, legally you owe nothing.
I guess dealerships could make quite a bit more money by verbally agreeing to a price, and then when the transaction is complete saying they made a mistake and the buyer owes 3k more. This thread could have been filed under "Dealer Tricks" as well.

dino001 · December 2005

Legal: unless there are some errors or gaps in the contract, the buyer can say "tough luck", as many times customers are told by dishonest/unscrupulous merchants (not only car dealers). Cuts both ways, as Kristie put it.

Ethical: Not always what is legal is right. There are many situations where our concience has to decide whether it is being tough and savvy, or a plain sleazeball. We all encountered them on both sides. I think each will draw the line at different place, thus differences in opinion. I always ask myself a simple question: is that worth my soul? In that context it does not matter what others may be thinking or doing.

jipster · December 2005

"It sounds like you are trying to justify being dishonest"

LOL...that's pretty funny coming from someone in the "business".

The verbal contract was amended by the dealership. veekaye
accepted the new terms and signed his name to them...as did the dealership. That is a legally binding document. Case closed.

sbell4 · December 2005

either you have it or you don't.

A good dealership is a multimillion dollar organization and the $3000 will not matter a bit. What it does is hurts the dealership's opinion of the communmity it supports. Let this happen a few times and see how generous they are to the local schools and civic organizations that show up daily looking for donations.

With that said, it is the dealership's money and you need to pay them simply because it is the right thing to do.

tamaraster · December 2005

If you were doing this transaction with another private individual, and not a business, would you make it right or would you accept the $3000 error in your favor? Knowing what difference it might make to the individual?

Just because your deal is with a business and not an individual person doesn't mean your conscience is clear. The dealership is made up of individuals who may be impacted by this mistake. Someone may lose his job because of this. Is that OK with you?

If you had agreed to, let's say, $15K, and the dealer called later and said, "A terrible mistake was made! We meant to charge $18K!" then that would be their problem, not yours. But you both agreed to the $18K and you were satisfied with the price before the error that resulted in the $15K price.

If this causes a hardship for you, for instance because the loan was made in the lower amount and now you'd have to get a second loan or something, then go to the dealership in person and explain that you want to make things right but you have this difficulty. I'm sure they will work with you to resolve it.

On another note, the dealership wouldn't be able to withhold tags and license plates everywhere. Here in Colorado, at least, the dealer has nothing to do with tags - you get them yourself.

But be a good person and don't let someone lose their job or their paycheck over what you both know was a paperwork error.

savvyknight · December 2005

So, someone in the "business" is automatically dishonest?

mirth · December 2005

Sooner or later, probably sooner, this is going to come back and bite the buyer on the butt. If they had paid cash, then maybe not, but they didn't - they financed it through the dealer. Sooner or later someone is going to notice that $3K deficit and come looking for it. You can argue "seller beware" all you like, but if you try to keep that extra $3K you are going to have to get a lawyer and spend a lot of time and effort and hassle to fight for it. Why would you want to do that? You agreed to the original price and obviously thought it was a decent price for the car, so why start a holy war over a mistake?

Personally, I would go back and have the error corrected, not only because I think it's the right thing to do, but also to avoid the bureaucracy storm from heck that will happen if I don't get it fixed.

dino001 · December 2005

Now, Jipster you are crossing the line. I, myself, am not a big fan of this business and its pricing and selling practices, as I expressed it repeteadly. But, please, "they steal so I steal, too" is a logic sounds all too familiar for me. My old country (all former communist block) is still struggling with that "everyone does it so I HAVE TO DO IT, otherwise I'm The Sucker of the village" mentality. Combined with "they are big organization so $3K is not a big deal to them, but surely would help me" thinking is a recipe for reversing to stone age... But that's just me.

graphicguy · December 2005

q....I've been "car lucky" (kind of), recently. RX8 was totalled and I was LUCKY to have walked away from the wreck. Mustang GT I had for 9 months and was LUCKY to sell it for more than I paid for it.

I've had my share of "bad" car deals, too. I did have a hiccup with a Toyota earlier this year, but the dealership took care of it. My winter driver is a 4Runner, which I like quite a bit.

With the Mustang gone (couldn't have driven it in the snow, anyway), I've been scoping out what I might want to replace it.

I keep hearing Terry tout the TL, so I'm looking at those. Test drove a couple of them. Nice cars. Test drove a Lexus IS. Also, nice cars but too small inside. G35's are nice (don't like the interior, though) as are M Series Infiniti's (the Ms cost more than I want to spend, however). Heck, I'm even looking at Caddys.

From what I'm hearing, I'd be better off getting the '06 TL with no miles, unless the dealership wants to sweeten the pot on the '05 demo.

You can tell it's getting to the end of the year. The Acura sales person has left me 3 messages on my v-mail just this a.m. He's asking for a "reasonable offer". I'm trying to find out what that might be. TL pricing thread is all over the map. Plus, I'm not so certain the deals I'm reading about are "real".

veekaye · December 2005

If they had paid cash, then maybe not, but they didn't - they financed it through the dealer.

I was not financed through the dealer. They have a check for the full amount already (cash).

And just to note, I never said I wasn't going to decide to go back and pay the difference. I actually live 40 miles away from this dealer and work 12 hour days in another city. I'm sure they'd be willing to deliver paperwork to sign.

Something else to think about.... I never mentioned what original price we "agreed upon". What *if* this original price just happened to be the MSRP and the dealer is actually not loosing any money - I just got a great deal as it was close to invoice after the 3K mistake?

It's just a topic to consider, and I am looking for advice... Is there a difference between the original price agreed upon being the MSRP and the price of invoice + let's say... $1000?

jipster · December 2005

"So, someone in the "business" is automatically dishonest?"

No, but the "business" as a whole is generally seen as being dishonest as shown by vast public opinion polls...and is backed up by my(and others I know) pesonal experience. I think there are many fine and honest salespeople and managers. But, the rotten apples amoungst them make them all seem bad.

There is a large grey area between what is the truth(honesty) and what is a lie. And it is my opinion that "many" dealerships exploit this area to the very last millimeter. Many, obviously, crossing that line. Withholding information, from a buyer,to make a sale... is a lie and is unethical in my book.

jasmith52 · December 2005

You can tell it's getting to the end of the year

Well, I have a neighbor that swears the very best time to buy a car is the day of new years eve (ie. Dec 31). Just maybe you'll get very motivated salesmen and very motivated dealerships trying to get their monthly and yearly sales quota(s). So just maybe, if you bargain hard you'll get a great deal.

I can't verify this myself but I liked the logic.

imidazol97 · December 2005

I would just sit tight. If they contact me, I'd talk to them. If they handle it the way they should, they would be tactful and grateful, perhaps compromising by wanting only part of the difference--if they ever decide there is a discrepancy in their remuneration vs paperwork.

savvyknight · December 2005

There is no "gray area" between truth and lies, in my business or any business.

You'll never hear me say that all dealerships are good and honest. In fact, in the town where I work, we have a store that is probably as bad as dealerships can get. However, the other 20 stores in this small town are good and ethically run businesses.

It frustrates me when people categorically lump dealers together as a bunch of crooks. The vast majority of car dealerships are great businesses with a strong moral fiber.

The reason that opinion polls are so bad is because of 20/20 and 60 minutes finding one store doing underhanded things and then making it sound like all dealers exercise the same tactics. Face it: if the news shows and web sites (like this forum), only talked about the good dealers, their ratings wouldn't be very good. Bad news sells, period.

No offense, but your opinions and personal experiences represent precisely nothing in the grand scheme of things. You have no idea how the retail auto business works. If you have one bad experience, it could taint your view of what is otherwise a good and ethical industry. Then, even when you have a good experience, you still think you were mistreated.

Like I state earlier, I've been through over 20,000 auto transactions. I am far more of an expert on this topic than you will ever be.

I also personally know more people in this business than you do, and I know what type of people they are. There are many, many good and honest people in this business. Try to give them some justice once and awhile.

mirth · December 2005

Something else to think about.... I never mentioned what original price we "agreed upon". What *if* this original price just happened to be the MSRP and the dealer is actually not loosing any money - I just got a great deal as it was close to invoice after the 3K mistake?

What does it matter whether the dealer is going to make money or not (although with a $3K difference I don't see how they could)? You agreed to pay them $X for the car and you only paid $X - $3K.

And although you didn't finance through the dealer, you DID finance, so you don't really own the car yet. I guarantee you that your finance company/bank isn't going to accept any funny business about this loan, and will go after the extra dough if the dealer gives them any hassle.

Basically, I can't see this having a happy ending for you if you let it go. You have no moral high ground - you're trying to profit from an honest mistake. Is it a hassle for you to correct it? - yeah. It's a hassle for me when my HMO denies a claim incorrectly, or my bank screws up a payment on my car, or my city forgets and sends my property tax bill to me instead of my bank. That's life.

Kirstie_H · December 2005

Let's just be careful not to let this get personal. Everyone has an opinion, and that's just what it is - there aren't any "facts" when it comes to perspective, and there's no way for any of us to know exactly what's gone on.

We've probably heard enough advice on this particular transaction from all sides without becoming repetitive, so I'm going to suggest we move on to the next issue.

Any Questions for a Car Dealer?

Comments

Helpful Tools

Most popular vehicles