Honda has traditionally sold several trim levels covering virtually all customer wants/need. In models like Civic and Accord, you have basic (DX/VP), mid-level (LX) and loaded (EX). Of course there are variations within that scheme with cars like the Accord LX SE, EX V6, etc. It definitely simplifies their manufacturing process as well as makes it easier for customers to locate a model they want. If you want an LX, you know every one of them has the same equipment. You're not going to run across an Accord or Civic that has power moonroof, but not alloy wheels. It does make sense.
The biggest problem I have with Honda is their restricted interior/exterior color options. For instance, I hate ivory/tan interior but I love white cars. You can't get a white Accord or Civic with anything other than ivory interior. There are a few colors of Accord (Carbon Bronze and Silver) and one Civic (Royal Blue Pearl) that offer a choice of two interior colors. I just think they should expand it to cover almost all exterior colors.
As soon as you want a manual transmission ANYTHING, special ordering becomes a consideration... so few cas out there that it's tough to even find the right color, never mind equipment.
My third-most-recent car, a 99 Prizm LSi, was a special order... side airbags, no ABS, remote pwr locks, no pwr windows, cruise, no automatic, alloys, no sunroof... one of the oddest ducks I've ever seen.
I've never ordered a car, but I'd love to some day... the only issue, unless one is buying a Honda is the customer incentives are unpredictable.
Hmmm... 2007 Pontiac Vibe, base, stick, pwr, sunroof, abs and all airbags, block heater, unpainted cladding, steel wheels... don't think I'd find that car on the lot...
I find cars with odd equipment combinations interesting. Am I a dork or what?
When I was shopping for my Mazda3, I ran across a leftover '05 Mazda3 s 4-door that had leather, automatic, ABS/side airbags and Xenon headlamps/Tire Pressure Monitoring System. It didn't have the Moonroof/6CD which a dealer told me over half of s models are equipped with. It was the color I wanted and, had it been a manual transmission, I'd have seriously considered it. The dealer was offering a great deal (about $2800 off sticker). He told me it hadn't sold because of the lack of sunroof.
I also ran across a Mazda3 i (base) model that had the Appearance Package (air dam, fog lights, etc), ABS, Sirius radio, 6CD changer, automatic and rear spoiler. It stickered for $18,900 and had manual windows/locks and plastic wheel covers! Doubt that dealer will be moving that one anytime soon.
I wonder if Mazda dealers have any control over what cars they get?
Snetsky I'm getting ready to do a special order too, possibly in the next couple of days, and am planning to do what exb0 suggested: request a time-cancellation clause be included in the contract. The dealer am planning to order from said would need a $500 deposit (for a ~$17K vehicle); another may have mentioned $1000 as for some reason that number was stuck in my mind (was about to propose $1000 on the phone when the dealer said it would be $500; good thing I kept my mouth shut).
Dealers, got 6 OTD internet quotes, 5 were within $50 of each other while the 6th was $400 below the rest (at invoice though the dealer said there's some dealer cash involved). Am planning to go with the latter dealer and wanted to include the time-cancellation clause as I had read that some unscrupulous dealers would delay an order and then say that because your car took so long prices went up and ask you to pay the higher price. Since a couple of you mentioned the dealer may be reluctant to include a time cancellation clause in an oddball order, is there any other way to guard against this? If the contract is written at the time of ordering, shouldn't this prevent the dealer from from raising the price when the car arrives?
Snetsky when I place my order I'll let you know what happens and if you do so before me I'd be interested to know what happens in your case!
I personally like the way Honda configurates its cars. Toyota Camry for example in order to get side air bags and Stability control you need to get Convenience Plus Package B ($1190 Carsdirect price). It looks like that side air bags and VSC are stand alone option, but when I visited several Toyota dealerships, only cars that have Convenience Plus Package B include that. There were no Toyota Camry LE with VSC & Side Airbag Package without Convenience Plus Package B available!
..... I see what your saying ... but most buyers aren't really concerned about safety .. when it comes to paying for listening to Howard Stern on Sirius or a side airbag -- they'll take take the Sirius radio ..... sad, but true .... that why dealers only order few, if any ....
I was considering an 06 MPV later next year, but when I checked its options on Edmunds, it appears that one needs to get LX+ AND All-Sport packages to get side airbags (and traction control.) Terry (or another knowledgeable person), please tell me this is wrong! $2500 worth of fog lights and larger wheels, plus the cost of safety package itself, to get side airbags? If so, off my list this minivan goes, pronto.
Back in 1990, it was quite easy to get just the car I wanted. 90 Ford Probe, Manual Trans, Power Locks, Manual roll down windows. In the color I wanted, Strawberry Red metallic. The local dealer got it from another dealer near Akron. Guess custom orders were more common then.
I guess I'm different than most buyers. I have two small kids and side air bags are much more important for me then sunroof or Howard Stern (he wasn't important to me when he was on the regular radio). Thats why I bought Accord instead of Camry ( and I like Camry styling better). Plus, Honda puts all the safety equipment in the lower configuration (LX), only stuff like 6 disk CD changer or sunroof is on the EX. I like the slogan of one manufacturer (Volvo?) --Safety is never optional!
it appears that one needs to get LX+ AND All-Sport packages to get side airbags (and traction control.) Terry (or another knowledgeable person), please tell me this is wrong! $2500 worth of fog lights and larger wheels, plus the cost of safety package itself, to get side airbags?
You must take LX-plus and All sport to get side airbags and traction control. In the all sport pkg you get 17'' tires, 180 watt 6 disc changer, power seat, leather wheel, spoiler, auto dim mirror with homelike...and LX plus gives you body side moldings, privacy glass, floor mats, Rear A/C cargo mat and fog lights.
Thank you, Rich. Just as I feared. The thing is, none of these packaged items are - for me - worth paying extra for. Come think of it, I am not sure I need TSC. Then again, I have never driven a vehicle as heavy as an MPV.
Was this the case also for 2005 or was the LX Plus the only package required to get side airbags?
Thanks. Pitiful on Mazda's part. BTW, I tried "building" an MPV with just the side airbags on mazdausa.com, and it "let" me do it; however, the only 06 vans matching that spec had LX Plus (but not AllSport.) Go figure... Thanks again.
If TSC is stability control, GET IT! In Germany all cars over 200hp must have a form of Stability or traction control (also called ESP) It is a shame that many of the domestics and Asian cars make safety an Option. :mad:
Traction Control IMO is the most important safety feature next to AirBags and ABS.
There have been a few times when I drove cars with stability control where it interfered with performance, it would be nice if you could adjust it and not just have an on-off switch.
You are probably right... thought the MPV is just at 200hp (and rather heavy.) In any case, the only way to get side airbags on it is together with Traction and Stability Control (TSC). As Rich confirmed, to get these I need to get 2 options packages that are useless or a minus to me. So I am likely to not consider the MPV and look at Honda and Toyota instead. Pity, as MPV is just the right size for us.
Yes I would. It would cost more money, but you would get savings in more than one way, insurance premiums, medical bills (if you are in a car that safe, you would have less injuries in a collision in most cases)
The only way Americans will pay for it, is if is standard. We are horrible drivers, we eat, drink, talk on our phone beat our kids while we are driving. 99% of us either have our child in the wrong saftey seat, strapped in wrong, or in no safety seat or booster at all. With all that in mind how can we put a price on safety.
I am not a safety expert but I would say I know a little more than the average person. I have only worked for 1 car company (vw/audi) and their big focus is safety, so its all I know. But I have been in a wreck in a VW going 40 miles and hour, (1995 Jetta) and not even a bruise And most recently I have been in a accident going 22miles an hour in a Ford (98 Mercury Tracer) and I knocked my jaw out of whack and had a nice size lump on my head and still really don't remember what happend.
Let me ask this VW has stability control standard on most models and has for years, why wont the Domestics step up? Its not that expensive. Its like a $350 option. Why is GM so proud that 2007 they will have it as option in all cars?
My question is: how many times in the last few years did you lose control of your car? If you have not lost control, then stability control may not be needed.
We had it on our last vehicle, which was also FWD. All TC does (not stability control) is use the ABS sensor to detect wheelspin and use the brake on the spinning wheel to force torque to the other wheel. That's great, in exactly one situation - when one wheel has good traction and the other has poor traction. When neither wheel has much traction the thing goes crazy automatically engaging and releasing each brake, while the engine revs like crazy and you go roughly nowhere.
I live at the top of a fairly decent hill. It gets slick enough at times that it can be a bit tricky to get home. With our TC equipped vehicle, there were times when I would leave the car out on the driveway because by the time I got up the hill the brakes were smoking so badly I was afraid they might catch on fire. With our new, non-TC equipped van - a 2004 MPV, oddly enough - I can just get a decent run at it and let the tires spin to get past the tricky part. No stupid computer hitting the brakes for me at the most inopportune times.
By the way, I have the LX+ and 4 seasons pkgs and I think they're both worthwhile, for the rear heat / air and the larger radiator and transmission cooler.
I understand what you are saying and it makes total sense indeed. I would think automobile manufactures are meeting the minimum standard for safety however there is a cost balance involved.. lets say for example a Toyota Corolla has all the safety features as standard now that car will no longer be an economical car it will be a car that is numerous thousands of dollars more. We have to determine what is a safety feature and what is not because a "few safety features" fall in a grey area of safety or convenience.
Cars can be made as safe as people will pay for, but some technology is overrated. ABS was touted as a savior for drivers, yet it has had zero impact on accident rates. Traction and stability control systems can be useful, but there are a few times when you don't want them. Also, I think they fool the average driver into thinking they can do more than they can.
I would rather have a car with a super strong body structure and well designed seats and seatbelts than a chintzy body structure and STC and ABS.
There's a discussion going on over at the Tribeca board.
Someone posted they were offered a great deal on a Tribeca that had "wind" damage. This poster said they were getting a great deal but the vehicle came without a paint warranty. A few months ago a tornado caused some damage at the Subaru plant in Indiana so we presume this a vehicle that was damaged.
I'm of the opinion that if the vehicles were not totalled that Subaru would repair them and sell them as new. I point to the fact the dealers do repair work on incoming cars frequently and many time do not have to disclose it. I believe that these vehicles may have been totalled by the insurer (based on cost to manufacture) and are being sold by the insurer via auction.
Others contend that Subaru doesn't have the capability to do minor repairs at the factory and that they offered them at great deals to the dealers who can repair and sell them.
Buy what you want...but it sounds as it you are looking for excuses not to buy an MPV. It is one of the lightest minivans. Minivans by there very nature are rather large and heavy. So, don't know why you would look at the heavier Honda and Toyota if vehicle weight is one of your criteria.
The MPV currently has a $4,000 rebate if that makes any difference. Toyota is running zero % financing and zero down in our region...or $1,000 rebate on the Sienna.
Oh I agree 110%!!! My 95 Jetta had no ABS, 2 airbags, but its built like a tank! Its structure is what saved me!
Its not just ABS and ESP and ASR that I am talking about, Its the whole Idea that many of the domestics cut corners to save a buck, and we as Americans do not care. I mean I came from the generation of tooling around in the back of pickups and all my friends in the back of a station wagon, and sharing a seatbelt with 2 other people and I am still alive to talk about it. But back then there was way less distractions.
I think the question I am trying to get an answer to, is Why doesnt the domestics put an emphasis on saftey like the germans do, when the technology is there? The VW Jetta is an 18k car yet has all the safety standard, and has a double best pick rating from the iihs? So to me it looks as though it is possible to build extremly safe cars inexpensively.
My question is: how many times in the last few years did you lose control of your car? If you have not lost control, then stability control may not be needed.
Here's my question: How many times in the last few years did you get in an accident such that you really needed both driver and passenger airbags. If you didn't get into a really bad accident, then airbags may not be needed.
The American manufacturers are much more concerned with reliability than safety. Toyota and Honda have set the benchmark and Detroit knows it is losing sales as shown by the decline of market share. Look at the April 2005 issue of Consumers Report. Asian reliability is the best (and presumably includes clunkers like Hyundai and Kia) followed by the US, with the Europeans bringing up the rear.
Germany and Sweden have seemingly abandoned reliability altogether. Remember when a Mercedes was actually fairly problem-free? One has only to look at the numerous complaints on Edmunds, CarReview and elsewhere to see how riddled with problems the Jetta/Golf models are (coil pack, window regulators, etc).
I have nothing against VW because my bare bones Golf was a lot of fun to drive, but within two-three years just about every button and knob broke, the headliner fell, the mirror wouldn't stay glued to the window and there were chronic problems with the fuel system. We sold it after 6 years and 70K. By contrast my Honda Civic is now 13 years old with 118K and every switch works, it has never had any engine/fuel problems and it still runs like a top.
My point is that all the manufacturers tend to emphasize one thing or another, but can't be known for doing everything well--it's just the nature of a broad and highly competitive market. I agree that safety should be paramount, but one should also have a car that doesn't force one into bankruptcy with repair costs or depreciate like a stone because the manufacturer is forced to give them away to try to hold onto market share.
Once in the last 5 years I needed the airbags. However, the difference in stability control and airbags is that, if you do not push your car to the edge, the stability control will never be engaged. (on snow, the egde is much closer). The way I look at stability control is that it is a nice feature, but for me, it is not required (and I do care about safety!). However, if I keep driving within what the conditions allow, then it will not engage.
Now, if I had an inexperienced driver driving my car, I might want stability control. But, my daughter has about 12 1/2 years before she drives.
I look at stability control as a nice feature to have. However, I would rather have better tires and more airbags.
(now, with an SUV with high Center of Gravity, I would require the Stability and Anti rollover stuff).
Some things to remember. 1 VW's are built in Mexico, not the US. Lower labor costs. 2 The Jetta's chassis is shared by VW, Skoda, Seat, and in some cases Audi. It allows you to spread the costs over a large number of cars. It is not that American car companies don't care, it is that American car buyers won't pay a premium for safety. Your $18,000 Jetta would have been shopped against a $15,000 Focus.
The MPV currently has a $4,000 rebate if that makes any difference. Toyota is running zero % financing and zero down in our region...or $1,000 rebate on the Sienna.
Actually, the '05 MPV has a $3000 rebate plus $1000 Mazda Finance Bonus Cash IF you finance thru them. The '06 MPV has $1500 rebate plus $500 Mazda Finance Bonus Cash.
I'd say it depends on the condition of your vehicle. If it is reliable and meets your needs, hang in there and pay down that negative equity. Trading it in won't help a lot with that and may even increase the negative amount.
Sorry, I know it isn't what you wanted to hear. Negative equity sucks. I've been in that boat before, too.
$$$ is the only way out. You can't borrow yourself out of debt. A lender may lend up to m.s.r.p., but a $35k car that you can buy for $26K is only worth $26. In fact you would be even worse off. If you buy that car for $26K, in 6 months it may be worth $18,19,20,21K and then you are buried $14,15,16K.
Wait until you are not negative to trade. Or better yet, pay it off and experience POSITIVE EQUITY!
Even with all the extra stuff isnt the MPV still cheaper than the Honda/Toyota? If the MPV is what you want why settle for another vehicle?
You are right, it is a little cheaper, I just don't like the idea of paying around 2,500+ for stuff I do not need (fog lights, larger wheels) or do not like (spoiler, skirts). These 2 packages on the MPV bring it, inspite of all the rebates and incentives, very close to the base Odyssey - which is a little too big but a very nice van. Mazdas, at least an MPV, do not have great resale, and if I truly decide I prefer its smaller size, I can always look for a low-mileage, used one. Yes, it is likely to be a rental. No, it may not have side airbags.
I have driven and ridden in newer Siennas, MPV (03) and Odysseys belonging to our friends, and they are all nice enough, with some advantages and disadvantages. Keeping in mind that 06 is the last model year for it, I think it makes sense to buy an MPV new only if the discounts are very high, so that the TCO is kept in check.
I sat in a Mazda5 recently and realized that a minivan I would really enjoy and put to good use is a 3-row, 4-cylinder vehicle based on the NA-market Accord. Essentially, the pre-1999 Oddyssey with sliding doors. Mazda3/Eurofocus is just too small of a platform to build a minivan on. Alas, this vehicle probably does not exist and even if did, I doubt Honda would bring it to the US where customers have voted with their wallets for larger minivans.
Buy what you want...but it sounds as it you are looking for excuses not to buy an MPV. It is one of the lightest minivans. Minivans by there very nature are rather large and heavy. So, don't know why you would look at the heavier Honda and Toyota if vehicle weight is one of your criteria.
Jipster - no excuses! I remember from another forum that own an MPV and really like it. More power to you. I like it a lot, too.
It is not that I am trying to get the lightest minivan (I'd be buying a 5 then, right?), it is that I commented that I never owned a vehicle heavier than a midsize sedan (Accord), and the dynamics of a larger vehicle are somewhat different.
The MPV currently has a $4,000 rebate if that makes any difference. Toyota is running zero % financing and zero down in our region...or $1,000 rebate on the Sienna.
As allfired pointed out, this is true for 05 but requires finacing with Mazda; 06s have lower incentives yet and most of those is in the form of dealer cash.
DEALERUPS....google their website. We have been with them for 4-5 years and it is by far the best tracking and follow-up software for car guys that I have seen. It was designed by car people and it has worked well for us.
I would think automobile manufactures are meeting the minimum standard for safety however there is a cost balance involved..
Most buyers are aware of safety but not really ready to plunk down real money for it.. except now for the full package of airbags now that they've seen the videos that the IIHS has on its website. Nearly everyone wants all the airbags but many are still wary about ABS ( dont understand it often ). But they will take if for free as standard equipment.
ESC and Traction Ctrl are still too new to understand. If the IIHS had a video like the Euro-NCAP has there would be a much stronger demand. OTOH American drivers in no way push the envelope like European drivers do while driving. Also, in general Euro's are more willing to pay a larger percentage of their income than are Americans for the privilege of driving, consider the price of 'petrol', but they also want more in the vehicles.
Comments
The biggest problem I have with Honda is their restricted interior/exterior color options. For instance, I hate ivory/tan interior but I love white cars. You can't get a white Accord or Civic with anything other than ivory interior. There are a few colors of Accord (Carbon Bronze and Silver) and one Civic (Royal Blue Pearl) that offer a choice of two interior colors. I just think they should expand it to cover almost all exterior colors.
My third-most-recent car, a 99 Prizm LSi, was a special order... side airbags, no ABS, remote pwr locks, no pwr windows, cruise, no automatic, alloys, no sunroof... one of the oddest ducks I've ever seen.
I've never ordered a car, but I'd love to some day... the only issue, unless one is buying a Honda is the customer incentives are unpredictable.
Hmmm... 2007 Pontiac Vibe, base, stick, pwr, sunroof, abs and all airbags, block heater, unpainted cladding, steel wheels... don't think I'd find that car on the lot...
-Mathias
Terry.
When I was shopping for my Mazda3, I ran across a leftover '05 Mazda3 s 4-door that had leather, automatic, ABS/side airbags and Xenon headlamps/Tire Pressure Monitoring System. It didn't have the Moonroof/6CD which a dealer told me over half of s models are equipped with. It was the color I wanted and, had it been a manual transmission, I'd have seriously considered it. The dealer was offering a great deal (about $2800 off sticker). He told me it hadn't sold because of the lack of sunroof.
I also ran across a Mazda3 i (base) model that had the Appearance Package (air dam, fog lights, etc), ABS, Sirius radio, 6CD changer, automatic and rear spoiler. It stickered for $18,900 and had manual windows/locks and plastic wheel covers! Doubt that dealer will be moving that one anytime soon.
I wonder if Mazda dealers have any control over what cars they get?
Dealers, got 6 OTD internet quotes, 5 were within $50 of each other while the 6th was $400 below the rest (at invoice though the dealer said there's some dealer cash involved). Am planning to go with the latter dealer and wanted to include the time-cancellation clause as I had read that some unscrupulous dealers would delay an order and then say that because your car took so long prices went up and ask you to pay the higher price. Since a couple of you mentioned the dealer may be reluctant to include a time cancellation clause in an oddball order, is there any other way to guard against this? If the contract is written at the time of ordering, shouldn't this prevent the dealer from from raising the price when the car arrives?
Snetsky when I place my order I'll let you know what happens and if you do so before me I'd be interested to know what happens in your case!
Terry :sick:
I like the slogan of one manufacturer (Volvo?) --Safety is never optional!
You must take LX-plus and All sport to get side airbags and traction control. In the all sport pkg you get 17'' tires, 180 watt 6 disc changer, power seat, leather wheel, spoiler, auto dim mirror with homelike...and LX plus gives you body side moldings, privacy glass, floor mats, Rear A/C cargo mat and fog lights.
If was an oddball car the other store may have been just tickled when they got the trade request.
Was this the case also for 2005 or was the LX Plus the only package required to get side airbags?
Same in 2005 and 2004.
Traction Control IMO is the most important safety feature next to AirBags and ABS.
Would you rather Asian and Domestic cars raise their prices and make safety a standard? and how safe can a car be?
The only way Americans will pay for it, is if is standard. We are horrible drivers, we eat, drink, talk on our phone beat our kids while we are driving. 99% of us either have our child in the wrong saftey seat, strapped in wrong, or in no safety seat or booster at all. With all that in mind how can we put a price on safety.
I am not a safety expert but I would say I know a little more than the average person. I have only worked for 1 car company (vw/audi) and their big focus is safety, so its all I know. But I have been in a wreck in a VW going 40 miles and hour, (1995 Jetta) and not even a bruise And most recently I have been in a accident going 22miles an hour in a Ford (98 Mercury Tracer) and I knocked my jaw out of whack and had a nice size lump on my head and still really don't remember what happend.
Let me ask this VW has stability control standard on most models and has for years, why wont the Domestics step up? Its not that expensive. Its like a $350 option. Why is GM so proud that 2007 they will have it as option in all cars?
Big difference!
I live at the top of a fairly decent hill. It gets slick enough at times that it can be a bit tricky to get home. With our TC equipped vehicle, there were times when I would leave the car out on the driveway because by the time I got up the hill the brakes were smoking so badly I was afraid they might catch on fire. With our new, non-TC equipped van - a 2004 MPV, oddly enough - I can just get a decent run at it and let the tires spin to get past the tricky part. No stupid computer hitting the brakes for me at the most inopportune times.
By the way, I have the LX+ and 4 seasons pkgs and I think they're both worthwhile, for the rear heat / air and the larger radiator and transmission cooler.
-Jason
We have to determine what is a safety feature and what is not because a "few safety features" fall in a grey area of safety or convenience.
ABS was touted as a savior for drivers, yet it has had zero impact on accident rates.
Traction and stability control systems can be useful, but there are a few times when you don't want them. Also, I think they fool the average driver into thinking they can do more than they can.
I would rather have a car with a super strong body structure and well designed seats and seatbelts than a chintzy body structure and STC and ABS.
Someone posted they were offered a great deal on a Tribeca that had "wind" damage. This poster said they were getting a great deal but the vehicle came without a paint warranty. A few months ago a tornado caused some damage at the Subaru plant in Indiana so we presume this a vehicle that was damaged.
I'm of the opinion that if the vehicles were not totalled that Subaru would repair them and sell them as new. I point to the fact the dealers do repair work on incoming cars frequently and many time do not have to disclose it. I believe that these vehicles may have been totalled by the insurer (based on cost to manufacture) and are being sold by the insurer via auction.
Others contend that Subaru doesn't have the capability to do minor repairs at the factory and that they offered them at great deals to the dealers who can repair and sell them.
What say you experts?
The MPV currently has a $4,000 rebate if that makes any difference. Toyota is running zero % financing and zero down in our region...or $1,000 rebate on the Sienna.
Also, the rental companies buy MPVS and they dump them at the auction a year or so later. We buy some of these and they are great buys.
Its not just ABS and ESP and ASR that I am talking about, Its the whole Idea that many of the domestics cut corners to save a buck, and we as Americans do not care. I mean I came from the generation of tooling around in the back of pickups and all my friends in the back of a station wagon, and sharing a seatbelt with 2 other people and I am still alive to talk about it. But back then there was way less distractions.
I think the question I am trying to get an answer to, is Why doesnt the domestics put an emphasis on saftey like the germans do, when the technology is there? The VW Jetta is an 18k car yet has all the safety standard, and has a double best pick rating from the iihs? So to me it looks as though it is possible to build extremly safe cars inexpensively.
Here's my question: How many times in the last few years did you get in an accident such that you really needed both driver and passenger airbags. If you didn't get into a really bad accident, then airbags may not be needed.
Sounds pretty silly, huh? :P
Germany and Sweden have seemingly abandoned reliability altogether. Remember when a Mercedes was actually fairly problem-free? One has only to look at the numerous complaints on Edmunds, CarReview and elsewhere to see how riddled with problems the Jetta/Golf models are (coil pack, window regulators, etc).
I have nothing against VW because my bare bones Golf was a lot of fun to drive, but within two-three years just about every button and knob broke, the headliner fell, the mirror wouldn't stay glued to the window and there were chronic problems with the fuel system. We sold it after 6 years and 70K. By contrast my Honda Civic is now 13 years old with 118K and every switch works, it has never had any engine/fuel problems and it still runs like a top.
My point is that all the manufacturers tend to emphasize one thing or another, but can't be known for doing everything well--it's just the nature of a broad and highly competitive market. I agree that safety should be paramount, but one should also have a car that doesn't force one into bankruptcy with repair costs or depreciate like a stone because the manufacturer is forced to give them away to try to hold onto market share.
Gogiboy
Sine I drive pretty slow, I doubt I would ever need such a thing as 'stability control', whatever it is.
However, I am much more likely to be involved in an accident, so airbags are more important to me.
Now, if I had an inexperienced driver driving my car, I might want stability control. But, my daughter has about 12 1/2 years before she drives.
I look at stability control as a nice feature to have. However, I would rather have better tires and more airbags.
(now, with an SUV with high Center of Gravity, I would require the Stability and Anti rollover stuff).
1 VW's are built in Mexico, not the US. Lower labor costs.
2 The Jetta's chassis is shared by VW, Skoda, Seat, and in some cases Audi.
It allows you to spread the costs over a large number of cars.
It is not that American car companies don't care, it is that American car buyers won't pay a premium for safety.
Your $18,000 Jetta would have been shopped against a $15,000 Focus.
Actually, the '05 MPV has a $3000 rebate plus $1000 Mazda Finance Bonus Cash IF you finance thru them. The '06 MPV has $1500 rebate plus $500 Mazda Finance Bonus Cash.
Sorry, I know it isn't what you wanted to hear. Negative equity sucks. I've been in that boat before, too.
Wait until you are not negative to trade. Or better yet, pay it off and experience POSITIVE EQUITY!
You are right, it is a little cheaper, I just don't like the idea of paying around 2,500+ for stuff I do not need (fog lights, larger wheels) or do not like (spoiler, skirts). These 2 packages on the MPV bring it, inspite of all the rebates and incentives, very close to the base Odyssey - which is a little too big but a very nice van. Mazdas, at least an MPV, do not have great resale, and if I truly decide I prefer its smaller size, I can always look for a low-mileage, used one. Yes, it is likely to be a rental. No, it may not have side airbags.
I have driven and ridden in newer Siennas, MPV (03) and Odysseys belonging to our friends, and they are all nice enough, with some advantages and disadvantages. Keeping in mind that 06 is the last model year for it, I think it makes sense to buy an MPV new only if the discounts are very high, so that the TCO is kept in check.
I sat in a Mazda5 recently and realized that a minivan I would really enjoy and put to good use is a 3-row, 4-cylinder vehicle based on the NA-market Accord. Essentially, the pre-1999 Oddyssey with sliding doors. Mazda3/Eurofocus is just too small of a platform to build a minivan on. Alas, this vehicle probably does not exist and even if did, I doubt Honda would bring it to the US where customers have voted with their wallets for larger minivans.
Jipster - no excuses! I remember from another forum that own an MPV and really like it. More power to you. I like it a lot, too.
It is not that I am trying to get the lightest minivan (I'd be buying a 5 then, right?), it is that I commented that I never owned a vehicle heavier than a midsize sedan (Accord), and the dynamics of a larger vehicle are somewhat different.
The MPV currently has a $4,000 rebate if that makes any difference. Toyota is running zero % financing and zero down in our region...or $1,000 rebate on the Sienna.
As allfired pointed out, this is true for 05 but requires finacing with Mazda; 06s have lower incentives yet and most of those is in the form of dealer cash.
Not perfect but about as perfect as one can be.
Most buyers are aware of safety but not really ready to plunk down real money for it.. except now for the full package of airbags now that they've seen the videos that the IIHS has on its website. Nearly everyone wants all the airbags but many are still wary about ABS ( dont understand it often ). But they will take if for free as standard equipment.
ESC and Traction Ctrl are still too new to understand. If the IIHS had a video like the Euro-NCAP has there would be a much stronger demand. OTOH American drivers in no way push the envelope like European drivers do while driving. Also, in general Euro's are more willing to pay a larger percentage of their income than are Americans for the privilege of driving, consider the price of 'petrol', but they also want more in the vehicles.
As the Internet Manager, I also use AVV which works better than Autobase in some ways.