I've driven the 4 Camry's roughly 30000-50000 miles per year since 1990. '90, 94, 97 and 2000, all 4c, the last two 2.2L at ~ 130 hp. The Prius is much quicker than either of the last 2 and the first two are not in the same universe.
The current Prius is just slightly slower than the current 2.4L 154 hp Camry in the 0-60 test. It's much 'quicker' from a dead start or from a 5 mph rolling start.
The Key purchasing reasons were in order: nothing smaller than a Camry on the interior; must have all the safety features; be comfortable for 45000 mi / yr driving; at least as fast/quick as the Camrys I had been driving; be in the same price range ~$22K.
Got them all so I sprung for it. For me with the miles I put on them autos are tools. 4-5 yrs and 250K miles and I'm onto something else. No biggie.
Just doing some quick calculations - at $25/week, it would take him over 3 3/4 (3.85 actually) years to accumulate $5000 down payment (5% of a $100,000 home). Man, if only I had the will power to do the same.
Except that he's in San Jose which means that $100,000 home will be a 1/6 share in a 2 bedroom condo in a scary neighborhood.
What do you think the situation would be now if the govt NEVER had mandates for MPG...15mpg would probably be the norm!
I highly doubt it. The market would have ensured that this was not the case. CAFE probably had the opposite effect of lowering the average fleet MPG by giving trucks a break (remember - a PT Cruiser is a truck). It's just a bureaucratic shuffling game.
The Truck vs. Car CAFE standards are a big reason why the SUV took over the wagon market. If we really want to encourage less gasoline usage the most effective way to do so is to increase the cost of gasoline. What do you think the fleet average mpg would be today, if there had been a $2 per gallon tax in place since 1974 (or whenver the first CAFE standards went into effect)?
People suddenly found all sorts of wayts to use less gas, when we jumped up to $3+ per gallon. Think of what might happen if we were at $5 per gallon.
Note that I am not necessarily recomending this course of action (and if I were I would want to see the increased gas tax offset by reduction in other taxes). I am just saying that if we, as a society, have decided that we want to encourage less gasoline use the better way to do so is to shift more of the total tax burden to gasoline not through bureaucratic standards.
Doesnt the battery pack get replaced on hybrids around 100K miles??
The minimum warranty is 100K except in CARB states where it's 150K but Toyota's position on the website is that it should last for the 'life of the vehicle'. 200-300K is typical for most 'yotas. Prius' been out since 1997, since 2001 here in the US. I've a couple of clients that put 80K a year on them. There are no reports that I've seen anywhere of a battery pack failure. Lot's of doubters but nothing else.
In 15 yrs I've never had any major Toyota system fail; 4 Camry's,Tacoma, Supra, Celica, MR2 and Highlander. I'll give them the benefit of the doubt and expect ~250K as they indicate.
Yep this is the 'dead zone' time of year.. two more weeks.
Good discussion on the relative merits of two good vehicles which I'll reply to over in the Prius forum if you're so inclined. Plug into your TCO formula
$22600 VSC, Trac, S&C/AB... and floor mats LOL mats oh, and 195 lb-ft of torque @ rpm 1. That's where the quickness comes from.
But hey I used to live in No. Jersey and drive into Manhattan everyday... The commute into and out of NYC ranged from 75 min to 4 hours one way. Unless I was driving to Boston or Baltimore or Pitt. Ok I'd fly to Cleveland.. but then drive to Cinci, Toledo and Detroit and all points in between. Or fly to Chicago and drive back to Detroit.. Memphis to NOLA all the time.
I've probably taken 2000 flights in the last 20 yrs sometimes 4 in a day ( that's excessive ).
Living in No Jersey I had the option of driving 25 min to Newark, 45 min to LaG, 90 min to JFK or 90 min to Phila to catch a flight. Heck most of the time I just jumped in the car and drove instead of flying. Now I live on the beach in NC and I only drive 150 mi/day.
How about this one.. for the last 25 yrs I have never lived and worked in the same state.
Oh did I mention that I like to travel.
Now my son he's nutz. He commutes into NYC by train daily 150 mi in each direction.
Kdhspyder, that IS a commute that I would not want and I can't believe that you have done that for 25 years and still be a sane person. You are a trooper!
I live 1-5 miles from anything I need. When I'm at my home in California, I will drive 130 miles to Los Angeles to shop, visit friends, etc, but I'll stay in a hotel for a few days and enjoy the city, see a show, etc.
Mark
2010 Land Rover LR4, 2013 Honda CR-V, 2009 Bentley GTC, 1990 MB 500SL, 2001 MB S500, 2007 Lincoln TC, 1964 RR Silver Cloud III, 1995 MB E320 Cab., 2015 Prevost Liberty Coach
You're telling me - I was at my Lincoln-Mercury dealer getting an free oil change on my 2002 Grand Marquis (another flawless mechanical report as usual), and the dealership was so dead, I could have dismantled one of the cars on the salesroom floor, put the parts in the trunk of the Mercury, and no one would have noticed.
I did get to compare a $30k Zephyr and a loaded $25k Milan close up and side to side in the showroom. Zephyr is much much nicer inside, and maybe it's just me, but it seems Ford is trying too hard to be stylish - it just didn't click for me as being a Lincoln. It's American in the 300C sense of trying to draw attention to yourself, not American in the coddling quiet cruiser luxury sense.
Then again, I am a 39 year old man on my 2nd Grand Marquis who wishes they offered a digital dash with the dual exhaust package, so I'm not exactly mainstream. I also miss not having a button-tufted interior as an option - now that is "old school" luxury at it's finest.
Then again, I am a 39 year old man on my 2nd Grand Marquis ... so I'm not exactly mainstream.
Well I am 45 and umm, yeah, you got that right gramps ...I'd say you are at least 30 years ahead of the typical 39 year old. I don't think the Fusion/Milan/Zephyr is aimed at the typical Grand Marquis owner...who is probably twice your age.
I couldn't stand that. Winter in Midwest is bad enough for me. Several dreary days with a bright sunshiny day and SAD starts kicking in. A friend's 19-something went to a college around Portland I believe and he said it's rainy when he was home for Christmas.
What's amazing is you're seeing shoppers in your showroom.
jsylvester, Jeffyscott... You guys are just kids... I'm 47!
Since I was a little kid I have always like big cars.. especially, luxury cars. When I was 6, 7, 8 years old, I could tell the difference between the brands and the model year. Even today, I can tell if a 60's and 70's car has the wrong hubcaps on them. My friends just roll their eyes when I point one out! :P
As a 16 yr old, I would have much rather had a Lincoln Mark IV than a Corvette. Call me crazy!
A guy in my car club has a pristine 1958 (yr. I was born) Eldorado Biaritz, black, stainless top and suicide doors... a dream car! The driver's seat will move forward automatically when the rear door is opened-----way ahead of it's time.
Mark
2010 Land Rover LR4, 2013 Honda CR-V, 2009 Bentley GTC, 1990 MB 500SL, 2001 MB S500, 2007 Lincoln TC, 1964 RR Silver Cloud III, 1995 MB E320 Cab., 2015 Prevost Liberty Coach
Isell, Just curious....Do you expect Sat. to be busy or quiet? I have heard that Seattle is not much of a football town....Now, I know here in the DC area, the stores will be quiet during the game.
The rain thing is getting really old. It's usually grey and drippy around here, but this day after day of rain, often times heavy, is driving me insane.
I didn't realize you were in the Seattle area until now. What dealership do you work for?
I have a question for dealers. What happens if a customer crashes a car during a test drive? There must be many customers who are buying a car for the first time who do not have auto insurance. Does the dealer insurance cover the damages?
Funny, I've been here a little over 2 years and this happened just a couple of weeks ago.
I took a loaner X3 to a customer of mine who needed service and a couple of other things taken care of. I had left my loaner agreement for the car at the office the day before, but luckily, there was one in the loaner X3 that was already used, so I scratched out the information and put my customer's info on ... luckily.
I took it to her on a Tuesday morning. That night, the customer's dad called my cell and said "we have a problem." He told me his daughter was not feeling well earlier in the afternoon, so she called her boyfriend to come pick her up from work. He was driving the X3 when he turned in front of someone and hit them head on.
Now, she is fully insured under her dad's policy, but his insurance is different. He only had liability insurance because he had paid cash for an old Isuzu Trooper, so there was no insurance to pay for the X3.
According to the loaner agreement, whoever signed for it is fully responsible. Still, my customer's insurance tried to go after the boyfriend's insurance at first (of course that didn't work), then they said the car is insured by us so it's our responsibility.
But then, there's the loaner agreement. Thank goodness I got her to sign it, because that lifted the responsibility being pinned on us. So, Alfa, their insurance, is taking care of everything.
Had that loaner agreement not been in the loaner X3, I likely would have lost my job, as the dealership would have been held responsible.
You may not have wanted to be told a story, but basically, if one of our customer's has a wreck while in a loaner car or on a test drive, as long as the loaner agreement is signed, the customer's insurance is responsible. Of course, we have to make copies of both insurance cards and driver's license each time we let customers take cars out.
Bottom line, I've learned the all-importatnt ... CYA!
In my experience, nobody has ever asked me to sign any agreement before taking a test drive. Half of the dealers don't even ask to see my driver's license, much less take a photocopy of it.
So you're saying that all dealers have insurance on their cars, and if the prospective buyers don't sign over their rights, when they wreck during the test drive, the dealers have to pay for the damages??
Well I've been on quite a few automobile test drives. And I like to have fun. However when I am out on a test drive, I often see other drivers doing irritating things like talking on the cellphone and not paying attention or just being a 'Road Hog' menace. You know those drivers that are either oblivious or are reckless, in either case they are driving all over the road and are a danger to others.
So I like to combine my love of testdrives and fun with my disdain for cellphone talkers and 'Road Hogs' into the Dealer Demolition Derby Test Drive.
I don't want to wreck my personal car, of course, so I usually go find a dealer who wants me to do a little test drive evaluation on a shiny new dealer car. While I am supposedly test driving their car I search out and crash into that unsuspecting but well deserving 'road hog'. I usually try to crash so that, at least, I do an air-bag evaluation. You wouldn't believe how hard you have to crash sometimes just to get the airbag to deploy.
The dealers have lots of cars on their lots for evaluation. And there are lots of different dealers. And the funny thing is, is that they usually act like they are glad to see me when I walk onto their lot.
- so many road hogs... - so many cars to crash... - so much fun... - so little time....
Now, the only time that we absolutely have to get copies of driver's license and insurance cards is if they are taking the car without me going along.
btw, some customers object to handing over their driver's license because they think I'm going to run a credit check on them. It's just for insurance purposes.
Yeah I have had that problem too. I had a woman that refused to give me her license because she has been around and knows all the scams and we are not going to run her credit without her approval. :confuse:
I was like thats fine but we can't go driving in that Jaguar then.
I crashed a brand new Mazda Protege on a test drive in 2000 . It had 22 miles on it, I think. The damage was financially the responsibility of the car dealer. I did not pay anything and neither did my insurance.
I have never been required to sign anything to take a test drive.
Yeah, it makes sense that during a test drive the dealer's insurance will cover accidents and damage, but not things like speeding tickets. But when you get a loaner the insurance responsibility falls on the customer.
Every loaner I've been issued came with a form I had to fill out. When I would get loaners from Saab, they wanted a copy of my insurance card or they wouldn't give me a car. One time I didn't have the card on me so they called my agent and had them fax over a form stating I was an insured client.
...... Most times, the dealer ends up being responsible for the incident (agreement or not) because of the "deeper pockets" .... it's then up to the dealers insurance company to subrogate the other insurance company if there's a loaner agreement .. and if the salesperson is driving, there is usually a $1,000 deductible depending on the situation ..
"already used, so I scratched out the information and put my customers info on it..."
Is that legal? I would think the insurance company may be a little suspicious with that document and challenge it. Was a copy of the loaner agreement sent to the insurance company?
Comments
The current Prius is just slightly slower than the current 2.4L 154 hp Camry in the 0-60 test. It's much 'quicker' from a dead start or from a 5 mph rolling start.
The Key purchasing reasons were in order:
nothing smaller than a Camry on the interior;
must have all the safety features;
be comfortable for 45000 mi / yr driving;
at least as fast/quick as the Camrys I had been driving;
be in the same price range ~$22K.
Got them all so I sprung for it. For me with the miles I put on them autos are tools. 4-5 yrs and 250K miles and I'm onto something else. No biggie.
Except that he's in San Jose which means that $100,000 home will be a 1/6 share in a 2 bedroom condo in a scary neighborhood.
I highly doubt it. The market would have ensured that this was not the case. CAFE probably had the opposite effect of lowering the average fleet MPG by giving trucks a break (remember - a PT Cruiser is a truck). It's just a bureaucratic shuffling game.
The Truck vs. Car CAFE standards are a big reason why the SUV took over the wagon market. If we really want to encourage less gasoline usage the most effective way to do so is to increase the cost of gasoline. What do you think the fleet average mpg would be today, if there had been a $2 per gallon tax in place since 1974 (or whenver the first CAFE standards went into effect)?
People suddenly found all sorts of wayts to use less gas, when we jumped up to $3+ per gallon. Think of what might happen if we were at $5 per gallon.
Note that I am not necessarily recomending this course of action (and if I were I would want to see the increased gas tax offset by reduction in other taxes). I am just saying that if we, as a society, have decided that we want to encourage less gasoline use the better way to do so is to shift more of the total tax burden to gasoline not through bureaucratic standards.
Doesnt the battery pack get replaced on hybrids around 100K miles?? How much does it cost to replace a hybrid battery pack today??
The minimum warranty is 100K except in CARB states where it's 150K but Toyota's position on the website is that it should last for the 'life of the vehicle'. 200-300K is typical for most 'yotas. Prius' been out since 1997, since 2001 here in the US. I've a couple of clients that put 80K a year on them. There are no reports that I've seen anywhere of a battery pack failure. Lot's of doubters but nothing else.
In 15 yrs I've never had any major Toyota system fail; 4 Camry's,Tacoma, Supra, Celica, MR2 and Highlander. I'll give them the benefit of the doubt and expect ~250K as they indicate.
To mix up this discussion a little more, I did a true cost to own on a 06 prius and 06 TDI VW Jetta.
The winner is VW! at 5years $35379 vs the Pruis at $35955.00
I rather pay less, and get 4 disc brakes, floor mats standard, and 177lbs of torque!!!
And still do my part in saving the pigmies and the rainforest and less dependance on foriegn fuel....
Replacement batt packs are around 2k-3k
How many miles per year do you drive....50,000!!
I highly doubt it. The market would have ensured that this was not the case."
Why??? What's the incentive to a car manufacturer to making high MPG vehicles if there was no govt mandate? What's the market incentive?
I'm not talking about an average, just with some fines that the companies just pass off to the consumer, I'm talking about a minimun standard.
I've driven 30000 to 50000 mi/yr for the last 20 yrs. 45-50000 for the last 10 yrs.
Good discussion on the relative merits of two good vehicles which I'll reply to over in the Prius forum if you're so inclined. Plug into your TCO formula
$22600 VSC, Trac, S&C/AB... and floor mats LOL mats
We'll compare notes.
As Terry would say, you need a new girlfriend, job or something closer to home! LOL! :P
Mark
But hey I used to live in No. Jersey and drive into Manhattan everyday... The commute into and out of NYC ranged from 75 min to 4 hours one way. Unless I was driving to Boston or Baltimore or Pitt. Ok I'd fly to Cleveland.. but then drive to Cinci, Toledo and Detroit and all points in between. Or fly to Chicago and drive back to Detroit.. Memphis to NOLA all the time.
I've probably taken 2000 flights in the last 20 yrs sometimes 4 in a day ( that's excessive ).
Living in No Jersey I had the option of driving 25 min to Newark, 45 min to LaG, 90 min to JFK or 90 min to Phila to catch a flight. Heck most of the time I just jumped in the car and drove instead of flying. Now I live on the beach in NC and I only drive 150 mi/day.
How about this one.. for the last 25 yrs I have never lived and worked in the same state.
Oh did I mention that I like to travel.
Now my son he's nutz. He commutes into NYC by train daily 150 mi in each direction.
I live 1-5 miles from anything I need. When I'm at my home in California, I will drive 130 miles to Los Angeles to shop, visit friends, etc, but I'll stay in a hotel for a few days and enjoy the city, see a show, etc.
Mark
I did get to compare a $30k Zephyr and a loaded $25k Milan close up and side to side in the showroom. Zephyr is much much nicer inside, and maybe it's just me, but it seems Ford is trying too hard to be stylish - it just didn't click for me as being a Lincoln. It's American in the 300C sense of trying to draw attention to yourself, not American in the coddling quiet cruiser luxury sense.
Then again, I am a 39 year old man on my 2nd Grand Marquis who wishes they offered a digital dash with the dual exhaust package, so I'm not exactly mainstream. I also miss not having a button-tufted interior as an option - now that is "old school" luxury at it's finest.
Well I am 45 and umm, yeah, you got that right gramps
Hopefully the trend will continue. I do hope the rain stops...26 days in a row with more forcasted for days to come!
What's amazing is you're seeing shoppers in your showroom.
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Geez, where do you live? Sounds like the Pacific Northwest...
Since I was a little kid I have always like big cars.. especially, luxury cars. When I was 6, 7, 8 years old, I could tell the difference between the brands and the model year. Even today, I can tell if a 60's and 70's car has the wrong hubcaps on them. My friends just roll their eyes when I point one out! :P
As a 16 yr old, I would have much rather had a Lincoln Mark IV than a Corvette. Call me crazy!
A guy in my car club has a pristine 1958 (yr. I was born) Eldorado Biaritz, black, stainless top and suicide doors... a dream car! The driver's seat will move forward automatically when the rear door is opened-----way ahead of it's time.
Mark
I'll be back!
Oh my goodness bring it our way, we are 25 inches below normal.
It is sooo wierd, Januarys are slow, but this is crazy. I have had 2 test drives this week.
One year I put on about 60K miles on a car.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
I think we will be busy until around noon then quiet until after the game.
Still, a lot of people who don't care.
Mark
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Terry.
I didn't realize you were in the Seattle area until now. What dealership do you work for?
We're rocking.. historically this is a dead time of year for exotic sales but we're humming.
I'm not talking about an average, just with some fines that the companies just pass off to the consumer, I'm talking about a minimun standard.
That's not practical. A Minimum requirement of 30mpg? I think that would damn near cause a revolution.
My e-mail is public so if you drop me an e-mail I'll fess up.
'I'll be back!'
Boy, now I feel guilty...
I took a loaner X3 to a customer of mine who needed service and a couple of other things taken care of. I had left my loaner agreement for the car at the office the day before, but luckily, there was one in the loaner X3 that was already used, so I scratched out the information and put my customer's info on ... luckily.
I took it to her on a Tuesday morning. That night, the customer's dad called my cell and said "we have a problem." He told me his daughter was not feeling well earlier in the afternoon, so she called her boyfriend to come pick her up from work. He was driving the X3 when he turned in front of someone and hit them head on.
Now, she is fully insured under her dad's policy, but his insurance is different. He only had liability insurance because he had paid cash for an old Isuzu Trooper, so there was no insurance to pay for the X3.
According to the loaner agreement, whoever signed for it is fully responsible. Still, my customer's insurance tried to go after the boyfriend's insurance at first (of course that didn't work), then they said the car is insured by us so it's our responsibility.
But then, there's the loaner agreement. Thank goodness I got her to sign it, because that lifted the responsibility being pinned on us. So, Alfa, their insurance, is taking care of everything.
Had that loaner agreement not been in the loaner X3, I likely would have lost my job, as the dealership would have been held responsible.
You may not have wanted to be told a story, but basically, if one of our customer's has a wreck while in a loaner car or on a test drive, as long as the loaner agreement is signed, the customer's insurance is responsible. Of course, we have to make copies of both insurance cards and driver's license each time we let customers take cars out.
Bottom line, I've learned the all-importatnt ... CYA!
Thanks.
So you're saying that all dealers have insurance on their cars, and if the prospective buyers don't sign over their rights, when they wreck during the test drive, the dealers have to pay for the damages??
So I like to combine my love of testdrives and fun with my disdain for cellphone talkers and 'Road Hogs' into the Dealer Demolition Derby Test Drive.
I don't want to wreck my personal car, of course, so I usually go find a dealer who wants me to do a little test drive evaluation on a shiny new dealer car. While I am supposedly test driving their car I search out and crash into that unsuspecting but well deserving 'road hog'. I usually try to crash so that, at least, I do an air-bag evaluation. You wouldn't believe how hard you have to crash sometimes just to get the airbag to deploy.
The dealers have lots of cars on their lots for evaluation. And there are lots of different dealers. And the funny thing is, is that they usually act like they are glad to see me when I walk onto their lot.
- so many road hogs...
- so many cars to crash...
- so much fun...
- so little time....
Now, the only time that we absolutely have to get copies of driver's license and insurance cards is if they are taking the car without me going along.
btw, some customers object to handing over their driver's license because they think I'm going to run a credit check on them. It's just for insurance purposes.
I was like thats fine but we can't go driving in that Jaguar then.
I have never been required to sign anything to take a test drive.
Every loaner I've been issued came with a form I had to fill out. When I would get loaners from Saab, they wanted a copy of my insurance card or they wouldn't give me a car. One time I didn't have the card on me so they called my agent and had them fax over a form stating I was an insured client.
Terry.
Is that legal? I would think the insurance company may be a little suspicious with that document and challenge it.
Was a copy of the loaner agreement sent to the insurance company?