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Comments
In my case, I've been looking at a variety of midsize sedans for a couple of months and have had a difficult time finding one from any manufacturer fitted the way I want.
Anyway, I finally decided on a Camry SE. Earlier this month I had stopped at a Toyota store and got some numbers. I told them that because the SE didn't have incentives (at that time) that it was going to cost more than I wanted to spend, but at their insistence they kept coming back with lower numbers. When they finally could go no lower, they were still over a thousand away from where I wanted to be. Fine, no problem, handshakes all around.
Today, I decided to go ahead and work a deal on an identically equipped car scheduled to arrive Saturday at another nearby Toyota store. This car was the color I wanted. Through an internet chat I told the sales rep about the other deal I had worked earlier in the month at the other store, and that if his store would match, I'd buy today. He indicated that was doable, but insisted that I come today since it is the last day of the month and he needed two sales for a bonus. Even though it was a 30-mile trip and inconvenient, I agreed.
Upon arrival, the numbers were not close to what I was told via the chat. About 2 grand higher. Needless to say, I wasn't happy. After a half hour or so they came down about $1,500, but they were still about $400 more than the other store. So much for the "end of month bonus" spiel.
Like afcrafton, I have decided to give it up for now. Don't really have to have it, and the 05s are around the corner.
The point of this is, when a customer like me and perhaps acrafton (I don't want to speak for him) is ready to buy, he has made a lot of decisions to get to that point. When he/she is rebuffed, then it is time to fall back, regroup, and make new decisions. (Unless of course, your old ride is disintegrating.)
P.S. Just as I posted this, the dealership called. Surprise! They decided they can meet those numbers. Since my wife is even more PO'd than I am, I don't think at this point that it's going to happen.
ramped...
YOU made the offer. YOU said that you would buy at that #. YOU gave your word. the inconsiderate part is YOURS.
"He indicated that was doable"
you left out the word "probably" or "i think"
If you had an agreeable deal at one Toyota store, why did you try to have another store match that number?
Why didn't you just go back to the first place?
Re the rebates, outsmarting, etc. . .keep in mind that I do NOT NEED THE CAR. If the rebates go away (highly unlikely) - fine, I won't buy. If other ones come that is fine as well. For whatever reason I like this car but most folks don't so the price will, if anything, continue to be pressured down.
Why not buy from the first dealer (with the ad) - as I mentioned, they did not have the color/options that I wanted.
Again, don't understand why dealers can change their mind and inconvenience customers but customers can't?
Adam
Ok, well instead of actually bobsting down the street, it was more like bobsting down the internet. But you all get the idea.
"The point of this is, when a customer like me and perhaps acrafton (I don't want to speak for him) is ready to buy, he has made a lot of decisions to get to that point. When he/she is rebuffed, then it is time to fall back, regroup, and make new decisions. (Unless of course, your old ride is disintegrating.)
P.S. Just as I posted this, the dealership called. Surprise! They decided they can meet those numbers. Since my wife is even more PO'd than I am, I don't think at this point that it's going to happen."
ITA with all this. I've said this before (and qualified it by saying I'm not the average buyer) but if I'm THERE and ask for a number and get one, I'm ready to BUY. Let's roll. You don't need to sell me on the car or do this, that or the other. Meet my price and the car is sold. (OTOH, if I'm there to test drive and just confirm if it's what I want, I will clearly tell you so. You attempt to "sell" at your peril--I won't tbe inconsiderate one due to impaired hearing).
Bowke replied:
"ramped...
YOU made the offer. YOU said that you would buy at that #. YOU gave your word. the inconsiderate part is YOURS."
This is stunning. The salesperson made an offer to meet end of month goal. Person arrives and voila! Price is the not the same. Person refuses offer and leaves. After driving home the half hour, at presumably closing time, sales person calls and says they will accept. When buyer says he doesn't want it, now HE is the inconsiderate one? Bowke, I totally respect your experience and the knowledge you bring to the board, but on what planet is that a fair assesment of the situation?
I mean look at what ramped wrote about how it went down:
"He indicated that was doable, but insisted that I come today since it is the last day of the month and he needed two sales for a bonus. Even though it was a 30-mile trip and inconvenient, I agreed.
Upon arrival, the numbers were not close to what I was told via the chat. About 2 grand higher. Needless to say, I wasn't happy. After a half hour or so they came down about $1,500, but they were still about $400 more than the other store. So much for the "end of month bonus" spiel."
So the offer he said he would take is NOT the offer he was given!
Imagine this: YOU tell me it's x on the phone, I drive 30 mins and when I get there it's x + $2000. I refuse and leave. Hours before your month ends, you want me to drive back 30 mins to take the same offer you gave me before--that I would have accepted THEN and if I refuse the second time, then I'm inconsiderate. Wow. I'm stunned.
Ramped said he'd buy at that number, on the phone, when the offer was made. Upon arrival, that's not the offer. Just so I understand your position, how long after he left would it have been ok to say no? I guess just as long as the salesperson EVENTUALLY goes good on the offer, the buyer should take it?
Bowke: We'll probably never hook up on a deal, man, if you do business like these guys. Tornado nailed it. I was there with the checkbook. I knew they could meet my number, because at worst it was about an invoice deal for them. Since they had given me the "last day of the month" speech, I assumed that they were willing. Do you ask your customers to drop everything they are doing on a weekday afternoon to drive 30 miles to your store, and then go, "Well, we can't do that." This was after two internet chats and a phone call.
Sure, at 10 o'clock they needed the sale, so now my deal is possible. Bowke, if you did pull this stunt, wouldn't you at least knock off a couple hundred more to show regret for the inconvenience you subjected us to? My wife pretty much summed it up: All this for a Camry?
Bobst: Call me naive, but yes, me and the Mrs. are surprised. It was an interesting ride home
case in point:
"He indicated that was doable"
my question is this...did he say "yes, i can do that." or "that might be doable." or "i think thats doable"???
we as humans tend to filter out words that we dont want to hear. if you and i already had rapport, i wouldnt jack you around like that, but if he never said a firm "YES" to your price, then you set yourself up for it.
in your case, YOU made the offer, and initiated the deal. the dealer didnt want to accept it. that makes them inconsiderate?
and please dont use the "i dont need the car" excuse on me. NOONE needs a car. there has only been 1 or 2 times that a customer of mine has truly "NEEDED" a car.
in your situation, the dealer agreed to your price, but not within a time limit THAT YOU DID NOT GIVE. i consider this inconsiderate. the right thing to do would be to tell them "ok, im going to leave now. if you weant my business, you have until next thursday to agree."
or call them when you change your mind. "mr. salesman, im sorry, but i am no longer in the market. dont waste any more time on my deal, please."
you said "Again, don't understand why dealers can change their mind and inconvenience customers but customers can't?"
i will reiterate that YOU initiated the deal. YOU went there with an offer. it was up to them whether they wanted to take your money.
you CAN change your mind, but the way you did it was equivalent to if i invite you to dinner:
me: "want to come over tomorrow night for dinner?"
you: "maybe...let me check the plans."
me: "ok."
then you call me later:
you: "id like to come to dinner tomorrow night."
me: "sorry, we're not eating tonight."
Here's my rule:
I offer a price, the dealership can take it or not - their choice. If they don't agree to my price then I am under absolutely no obligation to them for anything - ever !
If I want to try another dealer at some later time - then so be it.
You had your chance.
Similarly the reverse is true. The dealership during negotiation offers a price trying to close a deal. Unless I accept, the offer is not good any longer as soon as I walk out the door. Not tomorrow or next week. I had my chance.
As for acrafton, you are asserting that as a buyer, I have to tell YOU when I am or am not done searching for the car? That it is NOT ok to change my mind? That I don't want the car that badly?
Let's say I come into your store on June 30th 1 hour before close. I know what I want, how I want it equipped and will do whatever financing you throw at me. But, we have to agree on price. You offer a price to knock my socks off to close an end-month deal. I offer $500 less and neither of us will budge. A couple days later, I reconsider. I want the car badly enough to pay the addl $500. I come to you and what do you think your response would be? I bet something like "that was a one-time offer and I can't do the deal for that now".
Unless you say otherwise. That you would take that deal? If you wouldn't, then why is it ok for your timeframe to affect the pricing (despite the fact I don't know that timeframe) but you choose to ostracize acrafton for what? Not jumping when dealer caved?
Gimme a break, really. Had the dealer agreed to the price acrafton wanted to pay (that was quoted by another dealer, but not equipped as he wanted) he's said he would have closed the deal. But because a week later, the DEALER wanted the deal done, THEN I should bow before him and offer profuse thanks? I just don't get it.
no, i would have told you THAT DAY that "this is good tonight only." most dealers know to say this when it applies, and im sure everyone here has either heard it or said it.
I'm sure most people would rather be told that than show up a week later and be told the offer was only good that night. However, if I strolled into a dealership and negotiated with you, but could not come to an agreement and said "my intention to buy is for tonight only", I'd probably be reading about myself here on Edmunds as a nutjob.
One comment was funny...I DON'T NEED TO BUY A CAR TODAY!
Anybody want to know how often we hear that?
I'm guessing it's a defense mechanism or something.
Another caution...there are dealers out there who HATE IT when they get a shopper who they know is pitting them against other dealers in an attempt to wring out the last possible dollar.
Some of these guys will downright lie to these customers just to get them in. They don't care if the customer is going to drive 50 miles.
" Oh, that one just sold"
" Oh, you wanted an automatic? I thought you wanted a stick"
" You should have come earlier, the manager on duty now won't take that deal...etc...ad nauseum.
I deal with this stuff everyday.
And, WHY would they do this? One reason is to punish the hard shoppper and teach them a lesson. They will laugh when they drive out disgusted.
Or, and this is REALLY why they do this...IT WORKS! The tired, weary, outsmarted shopper has finally had enough! They cave in and buy from the dealer who lied to them!
You would never do this?? You would storm out?
Well, good for you! this is how it should be.
Still, many will throw up their hands and buy from the dishonest dealer.
And, come here later to tell their tales of woe.
Amazing business....
nobody would get lowballed if it didn't work so well....
Hmmmm....ok, how about $18,600 OTD on a new Odyssey EX-L w/DVD..?
No, well, OK....
This is not a legal question, but more of a "how is it done" question.
Terry wrote about an experience a while ago where he offered a guy the sum of $A for a 3-year-old Mercedes while en route to the auction. When the guy called him back the next day -- and Terry had bought all the Benz's he needed -- the offer was $(A-3,000) or some such.
This sounds fair to me, but what do youze guyze think? I could imagine some private sellers would pretty much blow their lid...
-Mathias
me: "want to come over tomorrow night for dinner?"
you: "No"
me: "ok."
then you call me later:
you: "id like to come to dinner tomorrow night."
me: "sorry but we have made other plans."
Again - I don't understand why my offer should be good forever and their offers are only good for a set time period. . .If I called them today and said I'll take the deal you offered last night they would say sorry, you waited too long. Should I be made - no.
Exactly! This is what I don't get about your point, Bowke. You say it's ok for the dealer's offer to only be good for so long, because you tells me upfront. Yet, you expect that AFTER HAVING REFUSED MY OFFER, I should accept if the dealer calls anytime afterward to let us know.
So, ok you say it would be considerate to call and let you know that I changed my mind or bought it elsewhere or whatever. Why? YOU refused my offer. If you wanted to sell the car at that price, you could have said yes then. Feel free to call on the 30th and let me know, but don't be surprised if I say no. I don't understand why that's inconsiderate. And like I said, if I said something upfront like "my offer is good tonight only", despite you declining it, I would probably be laughed at after I left.
So which is it Bowke? Don't say anything when I leave, but a day, a week, 6 months later, amongst the 9 zillion other things I do in a day, pick up the phone and tell you "oh btw, I don't need that car anymore". Please.
Now, I think you know by now, I actually defend salespeople against these morons who run around with the "car salesmen screw people" and "You can't beat a salesman" rants. I appreciate salespeople are doing a job and it's just a negotation, so I don't buy into that hyperbole. But honestly, look at the situation. He checks with a dealer 30 mins away--not to save $50, not to shop another guy; but to find the vehicle equipped the way he wanted it at the same price the others quoted. Salespeople says "it's doable (or might be doable or yeah, only if the planets align and do the macarena, but you must come down tonight or whatever qualifying language acrafton MUST have filtered out) or whatever BUT he HAS to, MUST come tonight.
Adam says "geez, it's inconvenient now, but it is the car I want at the price I want, so I'll go." He gets there and the salesguy says nope. He does the smart thing, what everyone says you should do when you're getting run around and walks. Then, a week later, on the 30th, probably desparate to push one more unit, the dealer calls and says "NOW I'll sell it at that price ('cause I spent a week trying to sell it for a $1000 more and shock!, I couldn't)."
I just don't see how I'm would be inconsiderate, if, after negotiating and failing to come to an agreement, I declined your later offer to meet my price. You're adamant that if I called YOU a week later, there's no way you'd agree to a price you agreed to a week earlier. So the $64,000 question is: Why the double standard?
I got no problem with you declining a future offer....but the future offer may have new incentives that allow the dealer to meet the price, the dealer may have hit an objective that allows them to meet your price or go even lower....IMHO it appears you like to play the game and that is fine...but how does it help you get a car? It seems you want to make the process as long as you can.
actually, i was talking more about the chrysler deal. not the toyota.
no double standard, because i would have the courtesy of telling you when the deal was good till. unfortunately, most buyers think this is B.S. when a dealer tells them this.
the difference is this:
if you are in the market for a vehicle, it is assumed (by all) that you will be in the market until you get a car or pass away. if your situation changes, taking you out of the market, you would have the moral obligation to inform the people you propose to do business with. this is no different than if you were in the market for a house. wouldnt you tell the realtor if you removed yourself from the market?
here lies the inherent problem. the buying public doesnt equate the car salesperson with other sales professionals, nor do they treat them the same. "aww...hes just a car salesman. i dont care if he wastes his time working my deal."
as isell can also attest to, this attitude also includes being punctual (or honoring at all) appointments.
My bad. I was actually confusing the 2 into one big story. Sorry about that.
As for the bigger issue that affects both stories. If I come to your store and we simply cannot come to an agreement and you make one last offer, stating "it's for tonight only", I WILL believe you and if it's not a price I want to pay, I will leave. Understand, "cannot come to an agreement" doesn't mean we're $100 apart. I'm talking $1000 or whatever. As for the courtesy of telling me when the deal is good till, I assume you tell me so I CAN'T call back a week later to get the same deal. It's to protect the dealership, not me (and properly so, IMO!).
Feel free to call me later, but, my brain just goes off if I get called on the 30th with the new offer, saying to myself "oh, so you couldn't sell me the car for that price THEN, but now that YOU really need to sell the car, now you can?". That probably isn't the whole story and no, it's not fair, but that's the way my brain works. Mind you, that's what I'm saying to myself, but if I haven't bought a car yet and I still want it, I'll sure jump at it.
The point is, after I walk out--both us having agreed we could not make a deal, I don't feel any obligation a week later to tell you "uh, I decided not to buy a car". And I'm always on time for my appointments and show up if I make one. As for real estate, it IS different if you're selling and have an agent, because you have a signed contract with that agent. If you're buying, it only matters if you have a buyer's agent (which few people around here do). No one has a contract with a salesperson and when they do, the car is sold anyway.
"I got no problem with you declining a future offer....but the future offer may have new incentives that allow the dealer to meet the price, the dealer may have hit an objective that allows them to meet your price or go even lower"
And that's fine, audia. I'm not of the mind that I would automatically decline your offer, especially if you called and qualified it like that: "GM just introduced an increased rebate for that car, and that lets us hit your offer".
Fine, I'm there. My point was being thought inconsiderate because however long later, I don't call that dealer and tell him I'm not buying that car, for whatever reason. Geesh. My uncle died, I'm being transferred to FL, my hours were cut, who cares? That was what I didn't understand, if a dealer lets me walk without us coming to an agreement, why would he expect me to call back 2 weeks later "btw, I'm calling from FL. I'm not buying a car."
Salespeople honestly expect this? Really? I wouldn't be surprised to get a call from you if GM increased the rebate. You want to sell a car and you know it's easier if the price goes down. But I don't get why I have to inform the dealer when my life changes affect my buying the car. Is it simple courtesy? If I had to do that in every situation in life, it's no longer simple.
i dont care why...just tell me so i dont worry about the deal anymore.
" "GM just introduced an increased rebate for that car, and that lets us hit your offer".
Fine, I'm there."
unfortunately, most people's response wouldnt be "fine. im there." it would be "GM gave you another $1000? then my offer is $1000 less."
And here's where our "dispute" will end, since I think we'll just agree to disagree, because to me, once I walk there is no "deal" to worry about. I've made my offer, you've made yours, we can't make it work, we walk away.
"unfortunately, most people's response wouldnt be "fine. im there." it would be "GM gave you another $1000? then my offer is $1000 less." "
Uggh. I see your point. I, however, would not do that. Because to me, if it takes $1000 rebate to match my offer, it probably means I was too low. In that intervening week or whatever, by calling around, I probably would figured that out. As in "gee, if I'd increased my offer $500, the deal would probably be done".
If I change my mind and get a Bently, I should have the decency to call you and tell you to stop looking for the Roller.
On the other hand, suppose I offer you $200K for a Roller and you decline. The next day I buy a Bugatti somewhere else. There is no need to call you to say I changed my mind.
Anyway, afterwards, we stopped at a few dealers to test drive some cars that piqued our interest. At the time, my wife and I thought we'd be in the market for a new car in the July/August time frame. When test driving, we shared this with the salesfolks, if we were asked.
Anyway, in the past week my wife had been getting calls from the Mitsubishi salesman (we had test driven the Outlander). I called him back and politely told him our circumstances had changed (they had) and that we were no longer in the market. 5 minutes, no muss, no fuss.
Good of him to follow up, I thought.
Since many of you work with repeat customers, at what point do you ping them to see if they might be in the market for a new car? Do you have a calendar (paper or electronic) that you mark "Sold Smiths Blahmobile 5 years ago today"?
I guess my question is this -- how proactive are you with your clients? Or, do you wait for them to come back to you - at a service visit or whenever?
If it were me, I'd keep detailed records of everyone I sold a car to and follow up on a regular basis -- quarterly, annually, whatever, just to keep my name in front of them as someone to remember when they (or their friends and family) need transportation.
im not tacky enough to say "its time for another vehicle"...i just call and check in and say hi...thats usually enough.
my point was simple...lowballing works.
It wouldn't work if consumers would only buy from a quality retailer. But the strongest emotion, greed, takes over and a slick salesperson can spot it a mile away. It works almost everytime. Call it lying, call it what you want but it still works. If a consumer had some ethics they would refuse to buy from a dealer who lied to them...but we read about it everyday here on edmunds. People justfying why it was OK for them to buy from the crooked dealer. These are the same people who reward the sleazy dealer with the sale and then whine about it on Edmunds.
Thanks for any help/suggestions.
Marshella
Surely you must mention the fact that the payoff and trade in values are close to one another -- or, at the very least, something along those lines.
I'll be dipped in grease before I'll let some idiot come in and ruin the motivation that I've worked into my folks - I work hard, they work hard, they and I have families to support - if you come in and act like a jerk and would just use us to keep the next dealer to a minimal profit, guess what?
I'm going to play a joke on you, and I'm going to run you all over town trying to beat my magic number, and we're going to laugh about you at the next sales meeting.
NOW, with that said, bear in mind that a lowball never goes out to someone we have a snowball's chance in heck of doing business with - it's just a game, and allows people to really outsmart themselves.
You know the old phrase about paybacks...
My point is that you and Drift are considered to be the honest ones, and you still approve and/or engage in these lies. What can be said for the rest of the industry? Hmm...
“It works almost everytime”
So, is it ok to lie as long as it makes you money? If that is true, is ok for the customers to lie as long as they can save money?
“You know the old phrase about paybacks...”
What came first, the chicken or the egg? Are you paying your customers back for being jerks, or are they being jerks to you because some other dealer mistreated them in the past? Round and round we go well you know the rest.
What .?!? .. this is how you plan your future sales, based on pay-offs.? .l.o.l.
What about the family that decides to upgrade to a Van on a spur it happens everyday, or the folks that want to drop the 4 dr special ABC vehicle and go to an SUV, or the guy that gets the bug and decides to go looking for a convert or a sports model over the weekend and has a new vehicle by Monday - 90% of them have negative equity .. but because the *the 2 numbers Don't approach each other, that means you Don't call them.?!?
Folks purchase vehicles because it's the 4th of July, some purchase because their dog just died, some will purchase because they just broke up with their wife or hubby, some might purchase because they just bought a new home or sold the old one and most just buy because "They Can" .. but you wait until the figures match-up.?? do also wait until the planets line up and the barometric pressure is correct ..
I'm sorry Bowke, it's 6:30am and thats one of the funniest excuses I have ever heard .. most folks today will purchase a vehicle whether they have $1.00 of equity or they are in the bucket $7,500 like my guy was yesterday, if I would have waited until the "numbers approach each other" he would have been driving a X-Type with or without me ...
Terry ;^)
Most of my customers are happy to hear from me and there are always a few who couldn't care less.
Honesty doesn't come into play, since the "trick" never gets played on someone who would actually by a car from you.
Duncan
From what I've seen in my area, her 2002 is worth around $175-180K, max retail.
Just my .02. Mark
Once in awhile I'll have some fum when a cheap customer calls on a used car that is already sold.
" Oh...it's sold?"
" Why, yes, it sold right after the ad came out"
" Was it a nice one"
" The nicest I've ever seen"
" What color was it"? (WHY would they ask this?)
" It was silver...it probably still is silver"
" Well...what did it sell for?" (I have no idea)
" Oh, I'm sure it sold for the full ad price, it was so nice"
" Oh.....well.....thank you."
i would be a little more devious...
"well, the ad price was $6995, but we ended up selling it for $4200."