Any Questions for a Car Dealer?

danf1 · August 2004

For the most part, I find his advice is usually accurate. We just happen to have different experiences regarding this matter. Its alright to disagree. I don't take it personally. But thanks for the moral support.

ramped · August 2004

I understand your frustration with Toyota's expensive and unnecessary packs. Unfortunately, they are not going away.

The way I handled it recently when I was shopping for a Camry here in Florida (Southeastern Toyota)was to ignore it. I made all of my offers based on the invoice price, and let the dealer work around all extra stuff. As it turned out, I could have gotten the car for close to the price I was seeking (around invoice), but a bad experience at the dealership caused the deal to fall apart.

Kirstie_H · August 2004

Folks, we're not here to talk about the credentials of other members or our own credentials. Thus, several off-topic posts have been removed, as will any further along the same line.

Please return to the topic at hand - if you forget, there's a clue in the discussion title

Cheers,
kirstie_h
Roving Host & Future Vehicles Host

texasmom · August 2004

I have gotten some good information and learned to click on posters' names to get their profiles! I am still pondering the Odyssey versus Sienna question and am about to decide to put off doing anything until the 2005 vehicles are on the lots. I know there won't be a good selection of 2004 stock by then; but, maybe the 2005 Odyssey has a good transmission and maybe the 2005 Sienna won't cost too much more than the 2004. Or maybe I'm just trying to find an excuse to procrastinate on what is a very hard decision for me. I like the advice to just go from the invoice price and ignore the unwanted fluff packages from Gulf States, on Toyota Siennas. I've got to do some serious test driving this weekend, I guess.

bowke28 · August 2004

theres a GREAT way to make your decision easier...go with a nissan quest!

driftracer · August 2004

Hey, "moms have changed, shouldn't minivans"?

texasmom · August 2004

What are policies, usually, when it comes to dealers providing free loaner cars to customers who are having warranty work done? I know that for recalls on my cars over the years, it's never been a policy anywhere I've traded. I have some friends who drive very expensive vehicles (lexus, BMW, Porsche, etc.) and they always seem to be offered a loaner.
At least for in-warranty work, it seems to me that a free loaner should be offered. Because of their busy lives, most people really cannot be without a vehicle for more than part of a day, which means that repairs could cost hundreds of dollars in rental car fees. Once I got a "deluxe" bumper to bumper extended warranty that covered rental car costs only to find out that there were unbelievable conditions that needed to be met before a rental car was covered. On the surface it sounded like the rental car would be provided for any repair taking more than a day, but the fine print said that the repair had to be within a certain category of repair that they thought should qualify as requiring more than a bazillion hours. In other words, maybe having the engine rebuilt. Nothing I ever needed to have done met the "hours of labor" requirement. So, are there actually brands or dealers who will give people rental cars or is it one of those things that "ain't gonna happen." P.S. I've also bought cars from dealers who said they'd give people free loaners when they had some available, which they never did. Thanks for any thoughts/knowledge on this topic.

thel · August 2004

Well it depends on

1. The car brand. It's pretty standard for the luxury brands you mentioned to offer loaners for warranty work. Some "budget" brands do as well, such as Mazda, but most don't.

2. The dealership / salesman relationship. Honda does not have a loaner included in the warranty but my local Honda salesman, from whom I've bout 3 new Hondas and one used one, usually allows me to drive one of the new cars home while I get an oil change or something. I wouldn't expect this kind of treatment at a store where I had only bought one car...especially if the transaction involved lots of grinding.

dshipley · August 2004

I currently live in Indiana. I am looking at selling my current vehicle locally private party and purchasing a vehicle that is currently located in Texas. Will I have to pay tax on 1)the whole vehicle cost that I buy, 2) the difference between what I sell my car for and what I pay for the car in Texas, or 3) no tax at all?

david1973 · August 2004

it really comes down to how long you keep your cars.

If you keep the car till it dies, your savings are the difference in price between last years models and this years. You don't care about depreciation.

If you sell after a year your car will have depreciated like a 2 year old car(which is why you paid less for it but probably more than a 1 year old used car) but you will get some of that back since you will have low miles. In my experience the years are more important than miles for cars less

years old. If you want to sell after a year, you are probably better off buying the latest model

There is a point around 3-5 years where the money works out even.

I think in general you save money by buying last years model but it might not be as much as you think. Sort of like when a person buys a used car and says they bought 4 year old 30K car for 15K. They didn't save 15K by buying that car used since they are going to get 4 years less of car use. If you figure the car is good for 10 years, they are going to pay 15K/6 =2500 a year versus the new car guys 3000 a year. Now 5000 dollars is still a lot of money but it is a lot less than 15k.

And of course these numbers can get adjusted by manufactors incentives, tax laws in your region, and the like.

rroyce10 · August 2004

.... ** dealers providing free loaner cars to customers who are having warranty work done? ** ...

Service and convenience is a major point when purchasing a vehicle .. in a case like a Toyota/Honda, it will go on a dealer to dealer basis, some might have them, some won't. Like someone just mentioned, it could be the saleperson involved, maybe dealership "A" has rentals and dealership "B" only uses demo's .. plus you will usually get much better service from the dealer you bought from if there is a failure .. thats why sometimes that extra $100/$200 that was saved by driving 100 miles to save it, can come back to bite you .............

Terry.

mfullmer · August 2004

Most major car brands (Chevrolet, Toyota, Honda, Buick, etc.) will provide a loaner, when requested, if the warranty repair means that the car will need to be kept overnight. Most higher end cars (Cadillac, Lexus, Acura, BMW, etc) will provide a loaner whenever there is warranty work done and, if available, when routine maintenance is done.

That said, I don't understand your statement "repairs could cost hundreds of dollars in rental car fees". For my Tahoe, since I'm used to getting a loaner for oil changes with my other cars, I usually just leave the car and have them call Enterprise. My rate (dealer service rate) is only $29-39 dollars for this rental. Since nearly every manufacturer will provide a loaner if they keep it overnight, why would this run into the hundreds of dollars?

jlawrence01 · August 2004

Unless you have blown an engine or dropped a tranny, why do they need to keep you car for more than a day? It is not like they sell Renaults in the US anymore!

As for "hundreds of dollars" ... For years, I have used Enterprise as my second car and have always been able to get a rental for $16-24 per day. At times that rental was an F150 and others an Aspire but always had a vehicle to head to work in.

Of course, I am a little different. I don't buy NEW cars. I don't ever take my car in for warranty work (what warranty after 50k miles?). And dropping $25 a day on a rental seems minimal with all the money that I have saved in depreciation, lower insurance rates, lower personal property taxes, lower sales taxes, etc.

CarMan@Edmunds · August 2004

As the previous community members have said, texasmom, whether you get a free loaner car when you take a Honda or Toyota in to have it serviced is completely up to the dealer that you are having your service performed at. My local Toyota dealer provides free loaners on a case by case basis. They probably wouldn't give a customer one for an oil change that they could just wait have done, but if you are getting warranty work performed or a number of things done to your vehicle, like an oil change, tire rotation, etc... then you will probably will get a loaner. Some Honda dealers in my area have loaner cars and others don't. If a dealer does offer loaners on a case by case basis, your chances of getting one increase greatly if you have your vehicle serviced at the dealer that you purchased it from. Most dealers do not like it when a consumer goes out of area to buy their vehicle and then just expects to get a free loaner whenever they go locally for service. When you shop around for your new minivan, make sure to ask the dealerships that you speak with what their policy on loaners is. All things being equal, I would much rather purchase a vehicle from a dealer that gives its customers free loaners when their car or truck is in for service.

Car_man
Host
Smart Shoppers Message Board

texasmom · August 2004

Thanks for all the helpful responses. I got just what I needed--information and food for thought.

One person wondered why my cars had to stay "overnight"--about 6-7 times I've had this happen in 25 years of car ownership. Typical scenario: will leave car and be told that they're so backed up that they can't check it until tomorrow. Call the next day and they say that they still haven't even gotten a chance to even check it--not their fault, just too much work and not enough people to do it. Call again later same day and am told same thing, in slightly annoyed voice. Day 3--we looked at it and it needs a part we have to order. Part in on Day 5. On Day 6 they say that it has been fixed but they want to test drive it to make sure problem is fixed. Not actually done until Day 7. That is how you spend about $200 (w/ taxes, etc) for a rental car.
Once I left my Chrysler minivan w/ dealer to have transmission replaced and left on an 8 day vacation--thinking, no worries--I'll come home and it'll be done and no rental car (except the one I had while I was on vacation!) Shockingly enough, when I called them the night before we were to return home they admitted that they'd overlooked my minivan--hadn't even checked it yet--and they lost the key, which had one of my remote entry things attached. As I type this I feel foolish--I mean after previous experiences I should have called them everyday from my vacation--just to check.
My goal in posting this question was to find out what can be reasonably expected from dealers--this site is brilliant for getting that sort of knowledge.

mfullmer · August 2004

You didn't state whether or not those stays were from warranty work but - I would MOST DEFINITELY request (and go up the chain until you get one) a loaner for ANY WARRANTY repair that they cannot fix in one day. The Manufacturers will reimburse the dealership for the rental, if the car needs to be kept overnight for warranty repairs, so it does not affect them negatively.

mfullmer · August 2004

I don't know if your state has special tax rules but generally, in that situation, the person purchasing your car from you would pay sales tax when they transfer the title. You pay sales tax on the purchase price of your new vehicle.

kyfdx · August 2004

You'll pay Indiana sales tax when you go to register your vehicle on the whole price.. No credit for the one you are selling. (My M-I-L lives in Indiana, and I bought her a car in Ohio, is how I know.)

regards,
kyfdx

bowke28 · August 2004

kyfdx is correct...we have IN people buy cars here in louisville on a daily basis. you will not get credit for the car you sell, unless it is traded at the dealer. the TX dealer will collect 6% of the selling price before rebates/incentives, and mail the money to the IN license branch, or directly to you. you then take the check and title to the license branch to transfer.

BTW...is it a new car or used?

texasmom · August 2004

Thank you for the info. It is very good to know that the dealership can get reimbursed for a rental car, so even if they say that they don't have any cars available to loan, if they keep my car overnight for a warranty repair, I can get reimbursed for a car rental (probably from a rental place that they have a relationship with). That's kind of what I thought. By the way, those repairs were in warranty, although some of them were in "purchased extra warranty" time frames.

asafonov · August 2004

Jim,

here and there, I see useful tidbits you mention about brands and makes more or less involved in lemon law cases. How are the new import minivans (MPV, Ody, Sienna) doing on this front? I will likely be buying one of those early next year - unless I can find a nice used Villager (relatively) cheap. BTW, how are these Quests/Villagers holding up?

Thanks in advance,

mfullmer · August 2004

I see. I would imagine that the extended warranty terms are a bit different (even if it is from the manufacturer). Most dealerships these days (except Lexus,MB,BMW,Volvo, etc) do not have loaner cars. They all, pretty much, use Enterprise. Even my Cadillac dealer did not have their own Loaners. They actually have an Enterprise "branch" at the dealership for their customers.

driftracer · August 2004

The Odyssey, Quest, MPV, Villager, and Sienna are all great in the lemon law arena - I've only seen a few of any of those, and for sporadic reasons - no repetitive incidents with any of them. The problem children in that arena are the Pontiac Montana, Oldsmobile Silhouette, Chevrolet Venture, and Ford Windstar...stay away!

mjfloyd1 · August 2004

I live in IN as well. If Texas has reciprocity with IN, then they will collect the tax and send it to indiana, if not then you will pay the tax on the whole amount of the vehicle when you go to get title and plates for it at the license branch. I did the same when I bought a car in illinois - I paid the tax on the whole amount when I got my title and plates.
Mark

asafonov · August 2004

Thank you, Jim.

driftracer · August 2004

khager · August 2004

What about SUV's I recenly bought a new 2004 Ford Expedition I know its a little late but How does it compare to a 2004 Chevy Tahoe or a 2004 Nissan Armada (I know the Armada is probably too new to have any info) Thanks

driftracer · August 2004

being too new - I've seen 3 cases already on 2005 Caravans...

The Expedition, as much as I like them, still hasn't outgrown the Ford transmission woes, and I'm still seeing '02s, '03s, and '04s that are dropping transmissions like bad habits. Couple that with some fairly significant electrical and engine management problems, and I'd recommend against it.

The Tahoe, just like all the other GM trucks (except the diesels) has the dreaded piston slap that GM says won't hurt longevity but I'd never take that chance..

ddelise · August 2004

First, thanks for your posting all your information. I am seriously looking at a 2005 Caravan. Can you specify what problems you have seen already???

Damon

driftracer · August 2004

problems, and they've developed something I haven't seen in many DCC vans - water leaks.

khager · August 2004

Thanks Drift,

Like I said I already bought the vehicle (2004 Expy)a few months ago and I really like it no problems so far but I am seriously thinking about that extended warranty.

explorerx4 · August 2004

if you are looking for a factory extended warranty, do a net search. there are dealers that sell them at a discount through the net.

cuco · August 2004

Well, my wife has fallen in love with a BMW Z4. I personally prefer the Lexus SC430, but maybe, just maybe, I can make a great deal for one of these boxes. I personally think that the style of the Z4 is too cute for its own good. I guess Venutians go for this kind of thing.

  Here are the number that I need help with. BMW is offering $4500 Manufacturer-to-Dealer incentives until 8/31/04, to dump the large inventory of unsold Z4 roadsters. They are also offering 1.9% financing.

  Here are the numbers:

  MSRP for the 3 liter that my boss wants: $ 49465.
  Invoice: $45285.
  TMV: $43721.

  If I subtract the $4500 incentive from the invoice price, I get $40785. Likewise, the new MSRP is $44965. Now, the TMV of $43721 tells me that the dealers are getting about a 7% profit margin.

  My question is essentially this. Does anyone have a feel for how low of a profit margin I can bargain for? Is 4 to 5% reasonable for BMW or in general?

kyfdx · August 2004

They obviously are having a hard time moving these.. I think you want your first offer to be invoice minus $4500. TMV is a historical survey, and as such is always a little behind the market... '05s are almost here.

My guess is you will be able to make a deal within $1000 of that first offer.

regards,
kyfdx

bolivar · August 2004

I've been reading through a couple hundred of the last messages, not been in here for a week or more.

I wish some of you posters would admit you didn't know what you were talking about when you strongly said the add-ons are added by the dealers.

Toyotas in the 'Gulf States' are bought by the distributorship. They do what they want to do to them. The distributorship then sells them to the dealers. With a LONG lists of add-ons, at ridiculous prices.At least Gulf States Distributorship does this. This is what you will see on all Toyotas in Texas, Oklahoma, and, I think, Arkansas (maybe other states also). I have also heard the southeast US (Florida, Georgia, etc) also has, as someone else described it, a 'fiefdom' where the same thing is done.

For what I considered an extreme example, a couple of years ago, while cross shopping Honda and Toyota, the local dealer had a mid-model Camary which comes with stock cloth seats. Gulf States pulled the cloth and replaced with leather, for about $2,000. They also pulled nice stock alumium wheels and replaced with some after market chrome ones for big money. And did you get a credit for the stock wheels - don't think so.

I feel the Honda Accord I bought is a better car, but this pricing approach made the Toyota a definite 'no go' for my purchase.

Texasmom, if you could drive to Kansas, they are in a different distributorship, and they do not pull this **** there. A lot of people drive the miles to see a sticker price $2,000 - $3,000 lower, without the mud guards, striping, unwanted wheels, electronic rear view mirrors, color keyed outside mirrors, etc, etc, etc etc. It's not just a $200 or $499 'Interior Protection Plan', it comes to thousands of dollars tacked on by Gulf States.

boomer1b · August 2004

The Toyota dist. fee also !
My yota lovin' cousin finally got tired of spending that $300 dist. fee along with the funny packs on his vehicles !

He decided to use our family GM employee discount and get a Prizm aka Corolla and a new Vibe this week.

ddelise · August 2004

Good Morning -

Interesting discussion about the Southeast Toyota distributors. I am in Tampa, I just started looking at the Sienna, and I too am frustrated with all the distributor/dealer add-ons - $700 protection package, $400 dealer fee, $500 delivery fee, something else I can't remember, etc.

Anyway, the dealer here in Tampa advertises 'Free Tires for Life'. If anyone is familiar with this program, can you describe it to me? I am curious if this is something real - or are there 500 exclusions that are going to be kicked in when you are in need of the tires.

Thanks - Damon

jasmith52 · August 2004

FREE FREE FREE FREE FREE - Boy that sounds good !

I don't have any info on the specifics that you refer to but I suspect its a variation like the "Lifetime" break jobs or mufflers.

They'll give you a "Free" set of breaks or a muffler and all you have to pay for is the inflated labor rate for installation. Well they charge so much for installation that it covers their hardware costs. Don't expect high quality replacement parts from this deal.

Guess who really pays for the "Free" breaks/muffler and perhaps the "Free" tires

boomer1b · August 2004

A Ford/Kia dealer in my town has that tires for life deal.
Fine print sez: Vehicle must have ALL maint. work done by them......aka $$$$pendy

Funny thing is they prob. send it to Pep Boys for those 4 tires for $99 bucks deal !!!!
Don't suppose they are gonna put a set of Michelins on huh??????

driftracer · August 2004

Free tires - boomer is spot-on on this one - sure, they'll "give" you the one or two sets of tires you'll use during the average 3-4 year trade cycle, but you have to do ALL maintenance at the dealer, following their menu and pricing, in order to remain qualified - all of the 7500, 15k, 30k, 60k services, full boat, plus brakes, transmission, etc - for the $400 you've "saved" by getting "free" tires, you've spent $3,000 in maintenance that would cost you $300-500 at a private shop.

ddelise · August 2004

Thanks all for the posts. I figured so much - just had not had a chance to talk to the dealer yet - and read all the fine print. Gotta love the gimmicks.

Speaking of manufacturer required service vs. dealer 'suggested' service. I have a 2001 S60 2.4t (leased). At 30,000 miles I checked with the three dealers in town. Quotes ranged from $450-$775. When I inquired to the dealer that quoted $775 - it included all sorts of stuff like transmission draining, brake draining, etc. It took 10 minutes for me to get him to admit they were not required by the manufacturer. I finally got him to admit so much in a funny way. In 2004, Volvo include maintenance (like BMW). So I asked him if I brought in a 2004 Volvo for the 30k service, would he do all the things he is trying to sell/include for my 2001 Volvo. Of course, the answer was 'No'. Case closed.

Damon

bowke28 · August 2004

ok i was wrong...kinda...

after some research, through friends in the toyota network, ive discovered that the distributors DO install and perform all add-on services for most cars....

...now for the "kinda" part...

they are not allowed to add things to the car unless authorized by the dealer the car goes to.

IOW, the dealer says "i wand mop & glo, leather, and chromies added."

the distributor does the work, and the dealer receives a fully equipped car just like they specified...

also, these adds DO NOT go on the monroney sticker.

danf1 · August 2004

The dealership I work for has done this twice in the past. What we required was that the customer get an alignment every six months to qualify for free tires. Depending on the tire size, and mileage that you drive, it may or may not be worth the cost of maintenance. We did not require that the alignments be done at our dealership, only that you maintained record of the service. Of course the customer still paid for mounting and balancing.

mfullmer · August 2004

No, face it you were just wrong. Whoever your Toyota contact is needs to get his facts straight.

That "mop & glo" that is added, here in the Southeast, is indeed done at the SET Port Processing Center. From website:

"SET Port Processing associates install options such as leather seat kits, spoilers, roof racks, alloy wheels, entertainment systems, radios, wheels, and exterior/interior value packages as ordered by SET dealers. Warranties cover all options installed at the Port as if they were factory installed."

This includes "ToyoGuard Protection Group", which includes Exterior Paint Sealant, Toyo Guard Sealant Cleaner, Interior Fabric Protector, Undercoating/Sound Shield, Glass Etch Theft Deterrent

These ARE listed as just another option on the Monroney Sticker. Only things that are added BY the dealer AT the dealer are not on the Monroney and go on the added sticker.

bowke28 · August 2004

you said it:

"SET Port Processing associates install options such as leather seat kits, spoilers, roof racks, alloy wheels, entertainment systems, radios, wheels, and exterior/interior value packages as ordered by SET dealers. Warranties cover all options installed at the Port as if they were factory installed."

"as ordered by SET dealers."

mfullmer · August 2004

That was an undisputed argument. You claim that they "ARE NOT" on the Monroney sticker. That is just plain wrong just like your other assertions were.

driftracer · August 2004

You both agree, do you not, that the lady should go to Kansas, or some other non-Gulf States Toyota area, to get her van?

If pressed, a GST dealer COULD order a Sienna without all the extras, I'm sure - if not, she could go to Colorado like I suggested and enjoy a leisurely two-day drive home in her new ride.

kyfdx · August 2004

It is mostly the Gulf States and the Southeast distributors that throw the garbage on... If you don't believe it, go to KBB and build a Toyota, and look at all the option choices they give you, just for those two regions... It is SICK. The sales experience is the ONLY reason I've never bought a Toyota.. And leasing? forget it, you can't get a straight answer on residuals, MFs (money factor, not the other MF), or anything else.

Other than that, great cars.

regards,
kyfdx

boomer1b · August 2004

Here in NY toyota has a pretty "official" toyota add on sticker next to the Monroney sticker with the mop n glow, floor mats, dist. fee, etc. added in for your buying displeasure...........

mfullmer · August 2004

I had no problem ordering my '05 Solara Convertible with just NAV and VSC. Looking at the inventory and what's coming in it looks like the order about 1/2 with those "protection packages" and 1/2 without.

Any Questions for a Car Dealer?

Comments

Helpful Tools

Most popular vehicles

Your Privacy