Any Questions for a Car Dealer?

kyfdx · August 2004

Terry doesn't pull those numbers out of the air, either.. He gets them from auction reports.. Which you can pull up from Mannheim's website.. You can say: "Don't use the books", but they still get the numbers from another source, not out of their vast experience with cars.. The experience part comes in regarding color, condition, miles, etc.. and how much to deduct.. You still have to start with numbers from some outside source.

regards,
kyfdx

tornado25 · August 2004

Which sounds perfectly reasonable to me. I mean, I seriously can't expect my Chrysler dealer to know what he'll take for a Sunfire because even if he goes to auctions every week, he's probably not paying any attention to what they're going for...

I just think that most of us here have accepted that KBB/NADA whatever are not nearly as accurate as the public might think, but it's obviously not so simple as saying "the value is what the market will pay, not what the book says". Well, the book's got to get its numbers somewhere and outdated or whatever, I'm betting that "somewhere" is the market...

That said, newcomers to Edmunds, don't give yourself the headache. Just go to RWTIV and let Terry give you the number first instead of trudging down to your dealer with 3 different numbers from 3 different, outdated sources.

audia8q · August 2004

you bring up a great point....the books don't tell you which colors have higher values or that dark green cars are worth $500 less becasue they will sit on the lot for 90 days more than a silver one....they dont tell you that a blahmobile is worthless without a sport package or an explorer is like a rash if it doesnt have the third row seat...The books don't mention that a Ford F350 with a V10 is way under book but the exact same vehicle with a powerstroke diesel is worth thousands more than book..etc

driftracer · August 2004

especially being in the business, although now a legal career spectator/commentator...but is it THAT bad?

"The books don't mention that a Ford F350 with a V10 is way under book but the exact same vehicle with a powerstroke diesel is worth thousands more than book"

I'm looking at making exactly that choice in an F-350 - the V-10 gets less mileage, and I don't really tow anything serious, I just WANT an F-350 (this is America, you know)...and I'm having a hard time justifying the extra $5500 for the Powerstroke package. With the V-10, I can buy LOTS of gas for $5500, and it would take 5-6 years to even out...and I'm not a fan of the 5.4 in a Super Duty...

kzybulew · August 2004

Thanks for your feedback audia8q. Any and all advice is appreciated.

We just had a baby boy and my ideal would be a wagon not a minivan, we live up north so I'd like AWD, safety is a major concern, I want the side curtain airbags for all seating positions.
So far I've driven:
a 2004 Volvo XC70 (I liked it very much)
a 2005 Pacifica (which I didn't like as much as I'd hope I would)

I plan to try an 04 or 05 Audi A4 Avant 1.8, an 04 or 05 Saab 9.5 (but I think it's too expensive for us), a 2005 Subaru Outback and Legacy (but I'm disturbed by the poor torso rating on the iihs test), a Toyota Highlander (and a Sienna because my husband wants to, go figure ;-)
That's the list so far.

mirth · August 2004

...the Passat wagon? I think it has AWD as an option.

audia8q · August 2004

Good list of cars. I like them all. Some may be a bit more reliable than others but nothing that would prevent me from considering them all. I must confess that the Saab 9-5 feels like it was designed and built exclusivly for me, one of my all time favorite cars to drive daily.....But, if I was in your shoes, the Volvo would probably get the nod.

manamal · August 2004

I think you will be surprised by the actualy cost of a 9-5 wagon. They typically can be had for invoice -incentive, or 31-33K. Which is comperable to the outback or the volvo.

BTW, I used to have an '01 outback. I was T-boned by a car doing 65, and walked away.

texasmom · August 2004

is something that is discussed on various forums. Right now the Honda Odyssey 2005's potential buyers are talking about having paying refundable deposits to their dealers and getting a "guaranteed" priority for "first dibs" on their vehicles of choice as they become available at that dealer.
I tried to do that at my local Honda dealer and was told that normally the deposits are not refundable and that they will make a special exception for me, but that it isn't the norm.
It seems to be the norm for the people who discuss such matters on edmunds.com. What do you think? Thanks!

driftracer · August 2004

from them, why would you need to make sure it's refundable? After all, you're committing to buying a vehicle - or aren't you?

BTW, I'm originally from Texas, too, and we always made sure folks understood it was non-refundable. You're asking the dealer to promise a specific, hard-to-get vehicle to you...once you commit, short of an act of God, there shouldn't be any reason for either party to back out.

steine13 · August 2004

C'mon Jim,
An 05 Odyssey is going to be a hot commodity, if she won't buy it, the next person will... on top of which, at least in MI: No drive-off -- No deal, they HAVE to refund it.

What you do -- as a dealer -- is to take a deposit, preferably in cash to make them feel a certain commitment, and then try your darnedest to actually sell the vehicle. If the people don't like it, you shrug and smile and refund their money. No harm, no fowl, and good word-of-mouth.

How can you, in good conscience, hold someone responsible to buy a vehicle that isn't even out yet???? If they made the dealer special-order a BMW 540i with 6sp manual in Mary-Kay pink, that's a different story, but an Odyssey? Seriously.

-Mathias

rroyce10 · August 2004

**How can you, in good conscience, hold someone responsible to buy a vehicle that isn't even out yet???? If they made the dealer special-order a BMW 540i with 6sp manual in Mary-Kay pink, that's a different story, but an Odyssey? Seriously**

Mathias get the Bingo card.!

Terry.

driftracer · August 2004

it's my job to hold interest at OUR dealership, not to let someone know that the deposit only counts if they might be serious, if the planet's are aligned, yada, yada...

Otherwise, they can drop deposits at 15 different places, waste 15 different salesman's and sales manager's time, and never get serious at all.

A deposit is a promise to buy, and accepting a deposit is a promise to sell.

Odyssey or Pink Bimmer, it's all the same to me - lock the customer in, or lose them to DowntheRoad Motors...

steine13 · August 2004

We put a deposit on an Odyssey in early '02... patiently waited until it came in 3 months later.

Test drive 6 miles through town & country & interstate, Madame's scepticism giving way to enthusiastic acceptance...
...until the moment of truth approaches in the way that I (never mind her) can't back the darned thing out of the driveway in one shot. REALLY tight. Express regrets, get our deposit back, and buy a Sienna, which is 4 in. narrower and a *LOT* easier to maneuver.

Not playing games, not joyriding. I thought (and still think) the Ody was the cat's behind. But some things you have to try out to know if they're gonna work.

The deposit was actually the only way to get a test drive. High demand car, I have no problem with that. It's really a matter of mutual respect.

-Mathias

npaladin2000 · August 2004

I would think that you would want to make the deposit refundable in case insurmountable problems occur that make the sale a bad idea to go through with. Like, say, the guy's credit doesn't check out, or Wile E. Cyote once again misses the RoadRunner with the anvil, but it lands on the Odessy that you're about to deliver to the customer, or the dealer is unable to get one with the options the customer specifies, or something like that.

That being said, a customer should be sure they want the car before placing a deposit, meaning they've test-driven the model and also like the numbers they hear. And having to place a non-refundable deposit in order to just get a test drive is unreasonable for a non-exotic. Honda dealers, even with the high-demand cars they have, make sure to keep a demo of each model on the lot for people to test out. The Mazda dealer never signs a sales contract on the last 3s on their lot until they know another replacement is on the truck headed for them.

719b · August 2004

putting down a deposit to get in line to buy isn't the same as a deposit on a special order.
keeping a deposit for a car that will just go to the next in line is sleazy. the salesman didn't do anything special. all he did was take a name and address with the deposit.
placing a special order can be problematic. if the buyer backs out, i can understand a no refund policy.

driftracer · August 2004

"the guy's credit doesn't check out"

I can't imagine how long a sales manager would retain his job if he's taking deposits for folks who have poor credit and can't get financed...

driftracer · August 2004

Thanks for calling me sleazy.

I never said I would keep a deposit. If pressed, and circumstances fit, a refund is no problem.

I simply would never want a customer thinking that a deposit wasn't binding. It certainly is for the dealer, and should be for the consumer, as well.

texasmom · August 2004

that have given me reassurance and perspective. I'm glad my son has three scrimmages this weekend so that I can stop thinking about this and have some fun !!

stickguy · August 2004

For something like the Ody (or any not-yet-out but sure to be hot item), they aren't really putting doen a deposit on a specific car, just buying a place on the waiting list, or in other words, rights of first refusal. If the dealer can't show an allocation for a specific unit/equipment at a specific price, how can yo uexpect a buyer to make a non-refundable commitment?

Sure, that F150 V6 no AC standard cab 5 speed in purple special order, that one is non-refundable.

I would think you would be happy to have people leave money just to be on a waiting list. At least you are guaranteed that you will here frm them again.

719b · August 2004

that was a generic sleazy. not meant at anyone in particular

cybertrek2002 · August 2004

We bought a 2004 Dodge Dakota. Got a $1,000.00 rebate if we financed through Chrysler. I want to pay off the loan after 1 payment. No one can give me a straight answer as to how long I have to keep the loan before paying it off. Is there a penalty? I can't find anything written anywhere.

Any help? Thanks so much in advance for any input you can give.

Steve

norne · August 2004

If you want to make sure, why not just call the chrysler financial and verify?

rroyce10 · August 2004

**Honda dealers, even with the high-demand cars they have, make sure to keep a demo of each model on the lot for people to test out. The Mazda dealer never signs a sales contract on the last 3s on their lot until they know another replacement is on the truck**

Huh.? might this be the dealer in just your area, or we talking about the dealers that have vehicles in Albania .....

Terry.

npaladin2000 · August 2004

Just the dealers in my area. But it strikes me as a fairly good way to do buisness, making sure a person interested in a particular model of car can test drive the model before putting down a deposit and "getting down to work" as it were.

bowke28 · August 2004

keep in mind, if the dealer doesnt fulfill his end of the contract, then the contract is void, and the refund is in order...but if everything on the agreement works out, then both parties, IMO are binded to it.

IOW, if you leave a deposit on an odyssey and want red with leather, and i have one coming, i expect you to keep your end of the deal, since i am too.

robr2 · August 2004

IOW, if you leave a deposit on an odyssey and want red with leather, and i have one coming, i expect you to keep your end of the deal, since i am too.

But bowke - you know as well as I do that if the 05 Odyssey has waiting lists like the original did, the majority of dealers will gladly refund the deposit and call the next person looking for that combo.

yobow1 · August 2004

Any Toyota dealers out there? If so, do you have pricing on the 2005 4Runner yet? I would be interested in hearing how much each model is costing, in addition to any incentives. Looking forward to hearing from you. Thanks.

dnunn · August 2004

I don't know the specifics of the Chrysler rebate for financing through their finance arm, but GMAC's $500, $1000, and $1500 rebates for specific models when financing through GMAC require at least $5,000 financed, and to make at least 12 payments on the loan.

mfullmer · August 2004

I simply would never want a customer thinking that a deposit wasn't binding.

A deposit isn't "binding", only a contract is binding. If someone leaves a deposit without expressly signing a contract (or agreement) to purchase the car then, legally, it is just a non-binding, verbal agreement for you to sell said vehicle to them. If someone comes in the next day and offers you $2k more for the same car you could kindly refund them their deposit (or find another car for them) and do so legally.

driftracer · August 2004

behind all that legal double-talk, you missed the point.

If a customer feels a deposit is non-refundable, and it's presented that way, and the deposit IS non-refundable in all but a few exceptions, you'll keep your car deal.

If a customer is allowed to believe that your deposit policy is as loose as the return policy at Wal-Mart, they'll shop you from here to eternity and your chances of losing the deal become strong.

I've never strong-armed a customer and taken their money, or refused to return a deposit, nor would I condone such acts. You'd better bet, however, that I've never presented taking a deposit as anything less than a guarantee that you will buy the car and we will deliver the car.

It's all in the presentation. If a customer mentions whether or not this deposit is refundable, that shows me a strong lack of commitment, and you don't get on the list or reserve the vehicle - period.

sbaker · August 2004

I have to agree in principal with driftracer on this one. I'm not a dealer, but I've sold several cars privately over the years. I always require a non-refundable deposit if the person wants me to hold the car until they return with the full amount. I put it in writing and make it expressly clear that they can kiss their deposit good-bye if they don't carry through with the purchase within a certain time limit.

Do I have a real legal leg to stand on?... maybe not, I don't know. But, I've never had anyone try to walk out on the deal after the fact either.

I used to work with a person who did exactly what driftracer describes. They would put a deposit down on a new car with no intention of honoring the deal as they shopped the price with every store on the planet. Although, they would make sure that the "refundable" part was contained in anything they signed. So, I guess the astute dealer was put on notice. With this person, I actually believe it was sort of a cultural thing... but that's as far as I'll go with that train of thought.

mfullmer · August 2004

You do have a "legal leg to stand on" if you have the non-refundable deposit agreement in writing. That is my point. If they agree to it, in writing, then you both are liable for the contract agreement.

My point was lost - that is: If there is no contract, stating each party and their obligations, then there is no legal reason to hold a deposit.

sbaker · August 2004

I think everyone understands your point about the written contract. Although, I'm still not 100% convinced my hand scratched contracts could with stand the scrutiny of a shrewd legal mind... ;-)

But, I think the point drift was making concerning the "expectation" of everyone's obligations is valid. Even if it was based on nothing more then a verbal agreement, which I can't imagine a dealer every doing. Once money changes hands and deliveries are put into motion, both sides should consider it a done deal and not without ramifications if one side or the other doesn't live up to the expectations. At least not without a very good reason. And now back to the real world... sigh.

Kirstie_H · August 2004

"If a customer is allowed to believe that your deposit policy is as loose as the return policy at Wal-Mart, they'll shop you from here to eternity and your chances of losing the deal become strong."

I would be rather interested to meet the customer who goes from dealership to dealership putting down a $1000 deposit on an Odyssey. Since it's a high-demand vehicle, there are waiting lists everywhere, with most customers reporting that dealerships require a deposit to hold their place in line.

Say a customer wants to buy an Odyssey in November, and the dealership states that he'll likely have a vehicle for said customer in November. Can the dealer guarantee a vehicle in November? Unlikely. How long should the customer "guarantee" that he'll wait for the Odyssey?

kirstie_h
Roving Host & Future Vehicles Host

719b · August 2004

you guys are straying from the original posting about not refunding deposits.
if a buyer test drives a car or orders one to his specifications, his deposit refund should be up to the dealer's discretion.
what i found unethical is when a new "hot" model is still months away and interested buyers put down a deposit so they will on a waiting list.
the customer only knows he likes what he has heard, but doesn't know if the car will fit till he sees it and drives it. if the car doesn't "fit", all the dealer has to do is pick up the phone and call the next prospective buyer on the list.

driftracer · August 2004

"unethical or not", but you're not buying anything in high demand, like a special model Harley, or a Ferrari, or some exclusive Porsches, without getting on the ol' waiting list.

I've known folks to spend 18 months on a waiting list for some Harley models. You either get on the list like everyone else, or you don't buy one - completely your choice.

In reference to post #9677, you'll notice I haven't gone on about putting deposits down on Odysseys - sure they're nice vans, but I'm not the kind of person who would get on a waiting list for a minivan...Honda or not...

leadfoot1 · August 2004

How much say do you have in the allocation process? I was told Honda determines how many vehicles to allocate to each dealer, but do you get to choose which trim or colors? For example, if I wanted model X in trim Y and color Z, can you ask for such in the next allocation, or do you have to wait for Honda to happen to make such a car and happen to allocate it to you?

wibble · August 2004

"I would be rather interested to meet the customer who goes from dealership to dealership putting down a $1000 deposit on an Odyssey."

It's a different type of car but when thr Infiniti G35 Coupe first came out we had around a dozen people putting $1000 deposits at multiple dealerships.

peterdh2000 · August 2004

What is the purpose of the deposit? Is it essentially paying for the option to purchase the goods in question (right of first refusal, as posted earlier)? Retaining the deposit should compensate the seller for the expenses of re-selling the goods if the buyer backs out (the expense of flooring the purple car w/no AC). In the case of a hot-selling car, there is no added expense in re-selling the goods, so therefore no need to retain the deposit. It would be nice to "punish" inconsiderate buyers by keeping their deposits, but in the latter case it is unjust enrichment.

Or, is the deposit a separate transaction where you are purchasing a spot on the list? I don't know the particulars, but maybe you have paid $X for space Y on the list and gotten what you paid for, like the folks on Ebay lining up to pay "amount over MSRP" for whatever the flavor of the year car is. Depends on how you spin it...

Communication is key. If one puts a deposit down, one should make sure the parties' duties are spelled out, and it is clear under what conditions the deposit would be refunded, something like this:

"Buyer places ($) in escrow to be held by the dealer for buyer's purchase of (color, options, model) at price ($$) to be delivered within (X) days of this agreement with less than (X) miles and with no pre-existing damage, repaired or not. Failure of the buyer to complete purchase at the above price upon seller's timely tender of a vehicle fitting the above description for any reason shall result in retention of the amount in escrow by the seller. Failure of the seller to tender a vehicle fitting the above description within the time allotted shall result in the refund in full of the amount in escrow to the buyer."

My $0.02, FWIW

Kirstie_H · August 2004

It's a different type of car but when thr Infiniti G35 Coupe first came out we had around a dozen people putting $1000 deposits at multiple dealerships."

#1, that's insane to want a specific car that much! We're not talking about a limited edition vehicle as far as I know. #2, I wonder if these people lost deposits at the dealerships from which they did not end up purchasing a vehicle?
I'm curious about this subject because I've never even thought of putting down a deposit to be on a vehicle wait-list.

kirstie_h
Roving Host & Future Vehicles Host

stickguy · August 2004

sometimes the deposit is for an actual car (I did that with my Scion), although sometiems it is just a spot for a "theoretical" cal (the old rights of first refusal). It might just be semantics, but if I left a deposit on an Ody today (sight unseen, price unknown), it would specifically be for the chance to buy the first (or second, etc) one to arrive, if it turns out to be what I want and the price makes sense. If not, make it available to the general public (like any other car on the lot), or the next person on the list. And yes, this "deposit" would be refundable

Picking a G-35 off the allocation sheet (a known car at an agreed to price) would be different. That would be a deposit on a car.

audia8q · August 2004

We all know folks who have to be first on the block to have the newest of everything. Many of the people who suffer from the 'gotta have' disease are the one who are dropping deposits to be the first ones. It's hard to impress the neighbors if your the third guy on the block to get the new blahmobile.

driftracer · August 2004

funny, actually. Like the commercial where the guy has the convertible, driving with the top down and stereo up, got his new HighTech 6.0 computer in a box in the front seat, heading home to hook it up, and he stops at a light, seeing guys paint a billboard for the new HighTech 7.0 computer..

I guess because I was raised poor and never got the chance to buy the latest and greatest, I wait a bit and pay less than those folks - those $99 Nike sneakers? I'll wait 4 months and pay $39.99 - the car? I'll wait six months and pay invoice minus rebate instead of MSRP plus - the plasma TV? Still waiting on that one, but they're dropping like rocks...

stickguy · August 2004

I agree with the idea of waiting until the market settles down, but that doesn't always work (at least in a timely manner). It took what, about 4 years for the current Ody to drop significantly from MSRP(ignoring initial gouging that some dealers did). I recently bought a Scion tC, because it was what I decided it was what would work best for me. It just happened to be the hot new item, but I paid straight MSRP. It's an '05 already, and given the low price and small invoice -> MSRP spread (not to mention initial demand), I didn't think it would be getting discounted much anytime soon.

Now, paying 2-10K ADM on a GTO, T-Bird, SSR or whatever just to be first is, to me, nuts, since it is (was) likely that you could save serious $$ in a few months, but with more "niche" cars, its hard to predict. Paying MSRP for a new domestic, now that sounds really nuts.

Drift, I'm also patiently waiting for the fancy new TVs to drop in price. I have more self control with electronics than cars.

kyfdx · August 2004

got the first GTO at his local dealership.. paid MSRP. You may not be able to tell the future, but I told him when he reserved his place in line for it, that before the end of the model year it would be discounted.

In the paper today.. GTOs have a $1500 rebate and another $1500 discount off MSRP for $3000 under MSRP total... And that is before negotiation.. I think it is crazy to buy the car as soon as they come out..

Last August, Edmunds posters were paying MSRP for RX-8s. A car that now has $4250 in incentives and rebates on it, resulting in sale prices of over $6K off MSRP.

(Hey, how about we pay you $500/month to buy this car next summer, would we have a deal then?)

regards,
kyfdx

driftracer · August 2004

I've seen lately was when the new Thunderbird was launched - I saw many cases of paying $10-12k over MSRP because it was a "collectible".

Well, they lied! Or were just wrong! Now, 2004s are going for less than invoice, with many dealers eating into holdback to get rid of them...

Using a $10 over price as a reference, and buying one for $500 under invoice, that's a $17-18k difference in price...

driftracer · August 2004

I haven't even sat in one - I'll have to check that out.

kyfdx · August 2004

I CAN tell the future.. I knew the Thunderbird thing wouldn't last either.. Hey, maybe I can get a job with Cleo or Dionne on the Psychic Friends Network.

stickguy · August 2004

anything that is primarily a style statement doesn't last forever, since there is always the next hot ticket coming along.

Good thing I sold short on the SSR futures. Now I can send my kids to college.

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