Any Questions for a Car Dealer?

bowke28 · October 2004

<<<falls over with a coronary>>>

;-)

jaserb · October 2004

"isnt $500 worth getting your bride the vehicle she REALLY wants?"

Somehow I imagine it's been used before... ;-)

-Jason

volvomax · October 2004

You should be able to rescind the deal.
Assuming that you haven't actually taken delivery of the Mitsu.
If you've signed a buyers order or a contract it might get stickier, but if you haven't physically taken possesion of the Mitsu you should be able to walk away and get your deposit back.

I think the Pathfinder is a better car, although I don't know if its $4,000 better.

thedave · October 2004

Great input and help from all. Here's what I ended-up doing: I called the dealer with the 2002 Pathfinder(55,000 mi) to give him one last shot as he was the best to deal with. The Pathie had listed for $17,900. He called later with an out the door price of $16,800. I then called the VP at the dealership selling the Monty and was 100% honest with him telling him that my wife didn't really like the car and thought that we had paid way too much for it. He asked : "Is price the real problem?" I said that we had agonized all day Sunday over this and that if there was anything he could do to help pricewise, that I thought I would be able to re-sell the deal to my wife.Since they are a big Toyota dealer in the DFW area, I also reminded him that I would be looking to trade my 2001 Avalon with 42,000 miles in the next year or two. The long and short of it was that we met in the middle on $750 reduction. So, we're now proud owners of a 2000 Monty Sport(48,000 mi) with leather to be added and a 3 year extended warranty plan(1,300). Out the door, with TTL was $13,250. Not great, but not too bad either.

Again, I appreciate the great responses. If you've read the "Confessions of Salesman" article in Edmunds, that's me as the buyer. To a T !

Very long story as to how this evolved into the Monty but it started off with a guy telling me that they had a handful of nice 4Runners in a repo sale from the bank. Wouldn't tell me the price unless we would come in and sit down, so we did. His starting price for a 2001 in his four square sheet was believe it or not, $28,000. When we raised our hands in disbelief, that's when the VP spotted us and took over from there.

We've had some good laughs about this experience.

the dave

manamal · October 2004

I did it twice: once for a (now former) girlfriend and once for a gullable friend.

I did not do much to help my former girlfriend, as she knew what type of car she wanted, and knew what it would cost. And the dealer had a reasonable 1 price policy. (She bough a '96 Contour that is still running fine).

My other friend, well, I asked him what he wanted me to do. My role was to try to talk him out of the car. It was '01 and he was looking at a Prius. There was one in stock at a dealer. I came up with convincing arguments: about how it is basically a high-tech tech at a camry cost, about how the difference between the echo cost and the prius (7K) would never be recovered. He countered that he wanted to be 'Green'. I asked how much was it worth per day, and he said $15 dollars. I then showed him that the cost of the Prius was less than $15/day, and the difference was much less.

He is very happy with his prius.

I think I did it right in that case. I actually helped the salesman close the deal because I knew what my friend wanted.

bowke28 · October 2004

?!?!?!?!?!?

dave, i think you just jumped over a dollar to get to a dime.

good luck

sbaker · October 2004

I wholeheartedly agree with the sentiment that the 1B role should be more of a bullpen player. In other words, you only step in when needed to keep things on track or to put a stop to any shenanigans that a less then earnest salesperson might start to pull. The only problem is that if your helping out someone who really doesn't have a clue about the buying process, you need to hold their hand through the entire process. Once when I helped my little sister get a new Eclipse, we found and purchased the vehicle at our third dealership (all in one day) for a very fair price. We basically used the same bargaining method at each location (start low, move reluctantly towards threshold, fast exit if not accepted) where I mainly took care of the quick extrication part. She ended up getting her dream car about $200 below our predetermined threshold. In a way, I think I helped even the salespeople who couldn't or wouldn't close the deal since we wasted a minimum of their time. My only regret is that I didn't accompany her when she went to pick the car up a few days later. This dealership used that moment to convince her she needed an overpriced after-market security system installed. Of course, it was never mentioned while I was present.

driftracer · October 2004

I've found that although the intentions are great, they do more harm than good.

Folks should really know if their coach has a clue about the car business before trusting them in a car deal and guiding the actual buyer's checkbook.

When I was an F&I guy, I was surprised to see a man with another man and his daughter - the daughter was buying, the father was cosigning, and the buddy was the coach.

They all agreed to a heck of a deal (for us) and bought the whole back end. This was because "it didn't matter" what she did because he KNEW she could come in within three days and unwond the deal...

Of course, she couldn't unwind anything, but I did take off the environmental package to lower her payment some and we recontracted.

Be careful who you trust, and make sure they aren't an idiot.

stickguy · October 2004

I have helped many times, but usually behind the scenes (much easier to do with internet quotes). I did help in person a few times though.

best example of it working out well (maybe not for the dealer) was when a women who worked for me needed a car (her old one died) fast. She was pretty clueless about cars in general, and had never been involved with buying one. Her father always did it for her, but he was on an extended cruise. But, she had decided that she wanted a Jetta, so it was off to the VW dealer.

Note: I usually do more work helping people decide what to get, and stay out of the way of the $$ part. It just works out that way.

Note II: I never claim that I can get the best deal in the world, but obviously I spend a rediculous amount of time discussing cars, so I know what a good deal is.

Anyway, we looked at what was on hand, and decided that the Wolfsburg (that I liked) wasn't comfy for her (the seats). But, she liked the green regular model (gl?). The price was a little more than she wanted, but we drove it, and she liked. We actually drove a salesmans demo, which was kinda ratty, but they offered it for a good price ($5 over invoice IIRC). We ended up heading for the door, with the SM in persuit. After q quick consult with my friend (who really liked the car, but wanted new, just couldn't handle the sticker), I offered the demo price for the one brand new unit they had (same exact car), and they took it.

At the time, I couldn't find any indication of dealer cash (and I looked), and my friend got the car she wanted for a price whe was happy with, so it worked out. If she had been by herself, I'm afraid to think what would have happened.

barolenr · October 2004

The only reason I choose to stick with them and finalize the deal was because of a time constraint. The car has already left the state and I know I will NEVER deal with them again. I would rather pay $1,000. more and work with reliable people. I am sorry that other person felt that way but maybe he hasn't been burned enough in the DC metro area! But he will if he keeps living in the area.

sbaker · October 2004

a well intentioned but largely uninformed "coach" can be a burden. I'm sure a dealer will run into more then a few wankers.

However, a certified car junkie can be an asset. It seems to me there are more then a few hanging around the Edmund's site.

They typically know as much (or more) about a car someone is shopping then the saleperson. And it isn't rocket sience to figure out what constitutes a good deal with dealer costs, rebates, holdback's, cash allowances, etc.... plastered all over the internet. You just have to be car-nerdy enough to dig it all up.

The approach I've always used with much success is to do all the talking before we get to the store. Once there, it's best to take a back seat and only respond to direct questions from the person your helping and to act as an emergency chute if a quick exit is in order.

It's tough for anyone to play games if everyone knows the rules.

driftracer · October 2004

with my best friend in San Antonio - I'm in PA, and he was trading his Neon (that we sold him when I was an F&I guy) for an SUV - he liked the Suzuki Grand Vitara XL-7.

I researched the options and pricing for him, talking it over with him - when he got into the F&I box, I had him put the F&I manager on the phone with me - kinda freaked the lady out.

I explained who I was, my background, and why I cared, and talked over the numbers, rates, and terms.

I then had her (the F&I lady) copy and paste the "deal" screen (an major ADP screen) into an e-mail and send it to me.

I recommended some changes to my friend, and he went with the deal. He's a hard-core non car guy, so he asked for the help.

The F&I lady got irritated, saying "they don't share information with outside sources".

I explained that (a) I'm his best friend and I've known him 15 years and served with him in the Air Force at three bases; (b) I've done over 8,000 F&I deals, so I know what I'm looking at on the "deal" screen; and (c) she'll either cooperate, or I'll tell my friend to find another dealership...

suvshopper4 · October 2004

I wonder if you were considered by that F&I person to be an inconsiderate first base coach?

bowke28 · October 2004

nah...he was out in left field...

;-)

driftracer · October 2004

Nothing like having a trained and certified F&I manager as a third baseman...heh, heh...

Bowke is right, though!

mfullmer · October 2004

Since this forum is read by everyone and not just the posters, I think that is a very valid point to ask. Of course in this case we now know that the Pathfinder was considered beforehand but it is still useful information to any car buyer and/or user of this forum.

IMHO-WDMMH

mfullmer · October 2004

So essentially you weren't really "100% honest" with him because it wasn't that your wife didn't like the Montero but that you realized you hadn't done your homework and had paid too much.

If she really didn't like the Montero and wanted the Pathfinder, $750 isn't going change the Montero magically into a Pathfinder.

I know this post is going to be disliked by the forum Sysop but I think the point needs to be made that you don't sign a contract or agree to buy a car unless you are sure you want it and you are paying a price you feel is fair, based on research.

bowke28 · October 2004

ill second your opinion, mfullmer.

kmurp · October 2004

I have never bought a used car before and I have a question. I realize that used vehicles are a an important area for dealer profit and profit needs to be made. I am looking for an odd car, a Subaru Baja. They are not good sellers and I can get one new at invoice and with a rebate on top of it. I would like, however, to get a 2003 Baja to potentially save some money. As near as I can tell, this 03 which stickered for around 24k when new might brig 14500-15,00 on a trade. The dealers consistently seem to be asking $19,500 for them used which is not much less than a new one. From a depreciation standpoint i would be better off buying new. My question is; assuming that my trade numbers are correct, is it possible to get this car for around $17k?

bowke28 · October 2004

you already asked terry in RWTIV, and he is the best one to answer. be patient and give him some time to get back to you.

stickguy · October 2004

You are correct that, quite often, used cars are priced very high on the lot, often much more than they can really be had for.

You are doing the right thing in getting a good idea of what a reasonable price should be, and offering them that. Worst that can happen is they don't take it. If not, get the new one if it isn't much more.

qbrozen · October 2004

actually, Terry answered yesterday and said the $17s was quite possible given that Subaru just dumped 100 off-lease Bajas at the auction in the poster's area.

kmurp · October 2004

Thanks- I had given up on getting an answer on that one and should have kept checking. Sorry.

sensor · October 2004

Thoughts on No. 1 only --

You surely signed a purchase agreement when you put down the $500. Thus, there is a contract to buy the vehicle. Unless your state allows for a "cooling off" period for vehicle purchases in which the contract may be rescinded (unlikely), you're stuck.

If this is going to be a big issue, you may wish to discuss it with a lawyer since it could be a $13,000+ problem.

Kirstie_H · October 2004

It appears that his issue has been resolved and that he's successfully purchased a vehicle. Hopefully, lesson learned. If not - too late.

kirstie_h
Roving Host & Future Vehicles Host

b4z · October 2004

Please explain this to me.

I live in South Carolina and all of the Hondas around here have asking prices higher than NADA and they are getting prices higher than NADA.

Just looked at a Accord 4 cylinder LX for a friend. It is certified, 56K miles. Asking price is $15,490.
NADA retail is $12,775 and kbb is $13,885.

Some friends of mine just spent a month looking for an Accord and everybody was asking over NADA and wouldn't come down to NADA. This includes private party sales.

The credit union won't lend more than NADA.
What is going on here with these Accord prices?

mirth · October 2004

Well, a few things:

1. Asking price isn't the same as selling price. Just because the dealer asks $15K doesn't mean that you can't offer lower.
2. NADA is really a pretty general overview and doesn't keep up with current market trends (same for KBB, Edmunds). It's a ballpark figure, but sometimes the ballpark can be pretty big.
3. My recommendation is to post the details in Real World Trade-In Values and let Terry tell you what the Accord should REALLY be going for.

kichan · October 2004

I'm interested in purchasing a Highlander form a dealer and I was told that if I wanted it to be a "Toyota certified" vehicle, it will cost an additional $700. Is it better to just take it to my local garage to have it inspected, or is it worth the cost?

driftracer · October 2004

the inspection is not what you're paying for - the certification includes a longer warranty than would normally come with the vehicle.

simbas · October 2004

I just bought a 2004 Tahoe. When I signed the contract it stated 133 miles on the car. When I test drove it ,I thought it said about 130 miles. So, no problem so far. I had a sunroof installed from the dealer before I took posession. When I went to pick up the car I noticed that there was, surprise, 3500 miles. The dealer said that there was an error on their part and that the only thing that they can guess is that 133 was the trip odometer setting not the true odometer. So I am assuming that this was a demo car which I am not happy about. Who knows how it was broken in! The dealer said that they would contact me tomorrow about negotiating the additional mileage. How much is reasonable to request? Or should I just ask for a different car that wasn't a demo? Of course that means that they would have to add the sunroof to that car too! PS-they have already cashed my down payment check. Thanks for the help!!!

kichan · October 2004

OK, is that a good price for the warranty??

driftracer · October 2004

That's depends on whether it's manufacturer certified, and has a manufacturer's extended warranty, or just dealer "certified" with some 90 day mumbo jumbo about what all they cover but never do...

What are the terms of the warranty?

driftracer · October 2004

Sounds like they're trying to work with you, but those 3500 miles could be HARD miles, and I truly worry about a dealer that would disclose a federal odometer statement based on someone's reading, when they don't know how to switch the trip meter!

Did you drive this thing? What was the mileage?

Personally, I'd want a new vehicle with new vehicle mileage, not needing its first oil change.

Let us know what the dealer's proposal is...

steine13 · October 2004

Unless $$ will make you happy, unwind the deal.
Messing with odometer disclosure is not in the dealer's best interest... so I somehow don't think they did it on purpose... or maybe they did, in which case I have a funny feeling they haven't "sent it in" yet.

But stuff does happen; the statement I have for my Vibe shows "74" miles, except it had 4 miles when I picked it up, 32 when they read it, and 74 was the temperature in Fahrenheit... you win some you lose some...

Anyway, I'd want OUT, and I'd make sure I get out. Get a new car, just like you wanted. If the dealer's on the up-and-up, they should be okay with that.

-Mathias

kichan · October 2004

It would be the Toyota Certified (6 year/100,000 powertrain, 128-point inspection, 24-hour roadside assistance). Toyota's cust service told me that the dealers set the price to do the certification, so I will also call other dealers to see what price they offer. The salesperson told me that they don't actually do the certification until the purchase is a "done deal"...

driftracer · October 2004

because the vehicle could be sold without being certified - the inspection is already done, it's just a matter of filling out a frm to get you the warranty.

While a powertrain-only warranty is fairly worthless in my automotive opinion, there are other things that a certified vehicle does for you, like rentals, roadside assistance, etc.

It's a fair deal in the grand scheme of things, but if you're a warranty person like I am, a wraparound Toyota warranty would be more desirable.

Then again, I rarely see any Toyota products in my lemon law cases (34 out of 5,269 in 4 years), so an extended warranty of any type isn't necessary, perhaps.

ramped · October 2004

Arranged a deal over the phone Wednesday to buy a Mazda 6s. Worked with a sales person and then her sales manager. The sales manager told me to ask for the sales person when I went to close the deal on Thursday.

When I got there, I was told that it was the sales person's day off and that the sales manager was gone.

Instead, another sales person handled the transaction, which took much longer than I expected since the new sales person wasn't familiar with the deal.

Everything finally worked out as I had previously arranged, but I was wondering if the new sales person would get a cut of the commission. I barely spoke to the first sales person, so it doesn't seem fair that the second sales person, who did almost all the work, wouldn't get a cut.

driftracer · October 2004

but that's really up to the sales manager.

kichan · October 2004

Thanks for the info driftracer. I would feel more comfortable knowing that it is a certified vehicle, however $700 just for filling out a form?? I'm going to do the actual test drive and physical inspection tonight, and will tell them that I also want to take it to my local mechanic to be inspected independently. In your opinion, what are their chances of saying no to this? Obviously, if they say no, they have something to hide, and I won't go ahead with the deal.

kyfdx · October 2004

When they say the dealer sets the price, that doesn't mean they don't have to pay Toyota out of that.. The dealer probably pays about $400 to Toyota for the warranty, then they have the paperwork and inspection.. Plus, they have to do any reconditioning or repairs to bring it up to CPO specs.. They aren't getting $700 for filling out a form..

regards,
kyfdx

bowke28 · October 2004

until he takes physical delivery of the vehicle, the contract is not complete.

bowke28 · October 2004

dont worry about it. the dealership and salespeople will work it out, and you have a new car...go drive it.

;-)

rroyce10 · October 2004

....... Dealer makes $200ish and Yota gets the rest ....

Terry.

rroyce10 · October 2004

...... Every store is different, some do, some don't .. some get a flat $25, some get $50, some get a percentage and some get nada .....

Terry.

paulhuang · October 2004

Terry,
Thank you for the response. A follow-up question if I may. Would it be rude/inconsiderate to ask my salesperson whether he/she will get a cut prior to going to the F&I office? I am interested in helping my salesperson make more money (at no cost to me anyway), the F&I manager, not so much.
Thank you very much!
Paul

rroyce10 · October 2004

....... Nah, I would have no problem if someone asked me or one of my salesman ... some might even work on a bonus system, ya know, X amount of finance deals a month type thing ...

Terry.

bowke28 · October 2004

dont bother. if its a store that doesnt pay F&I money, you will only drive the stake deeper into your salesman's heart. the last thing you want to remind him of is the negatives. you cant change anything, unless you pay more, so why worry about it.

i will refer to this post for future questions on the subject:

DONT GET INTO DEALERSHIP INTERNAL PRACTICES!!! YOU WONT CHANGE ANYTHING!!!

nothing positive can come out of doing so...only negative.

kyfdx · October 2004

Man, bowke.. this is like three straight posts of yours that I agree with completely.. I have got to get in for a doctor's appointment..

(I'm kidding.. have a good weekend)

bowke28 · October 2004

i just know that it makes me extremely uncomfortable when people ask how im paid or if i get all/half/none of the commission. its not their business. more often than not, its only a platitude when they ask, which ticks me off even more.

p.s. you too.

driftracer · October 2004

think about it - a guy came from a store where he got F&I bonuses as a salesman - he now works where he doesn't - you ask about it, and he quits.

People have quit jobs in retail for less!

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