Did you recently take on (or consider) a loan of 84 months or longer on a car purchase?
A reporter would like to speak with you about your experience; please reach out to PR@Edmunds.com by 7/25 for details.
Options

Dealer's Tricks - bait & switch, etc.

1181921232481

Comments

  • fpereirafpereira Member Posts: 42
    Sorry garypen, your justification of sunroofs squeaked in there as I posted. I didn't mean to sound defensive, just explain why I didn't want one. :-)
  • That's OK. Me make joke.
    Which Acura's don't come with sunroofs? It's standard on RSX, CL, TL, and RL. I don't know about the SUV and NSX. But, their really not "cars" in the traditional sense.
  • fpereirafpereira Member Posts: 42
    Hi afk, actually the price I took was about $1500 higher than what Fremont was agreeing to; and it was $1300 higher than Dave's offer. As another already pointed out, though, it isn't clear to me at all that Fremont would have followed through.

    In any case, I didn't walk out because of the $45; I walked out because the sales manager of the dealership asked me to. It's his store; I have to leave when he tells me to.
  • fpereirafpereira Member Posts: 42
    Hi garypen, maybe I misspoke; what I meant was what you said: Acura TL, CL come with sunroof as standard.
  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    Modern sunroofs rarely break, rattle or leak after a few years.

    Still, if you don't want one you shouldn't have to take one I guess.

    A dealer might he hesitant to special order a Lexus without a sunroof out of fear the buyer will cancel the order and leave him stuck with a car nobody wants.

    Personally, they aren't that big of a deal to me.
  • fpereirafpereira Member Posts: 42
    Yes, it certainly is a high jerk tax. If I had known Dave Parker by reputation (as I do now from personal recs, ads in club rag), and perhaps more important, known roughly what the going price was for the car, I would have known his quote was at most, say $500 above rock bottom, and I like to think I would have taken it and had a good delivery experience.
    And then, I would have gone back to the same dealer for service and discover they charge $10 per quart for synthetic oil---but the service advisor kindly warns you about it: "bring your own oil because we charge $10 per quart and the last customer freaked out when he heard that".
    There are good BMW dealers---but not in the Bay Area there aren't. Only a few good people among a host of bad ones.
  • m3fanm3fan Member Posts: 30
    Just wondering...
    Say I come to the dealer to pick up my new car after it was delivered there and I want to take it out for a drive before I take it. Basically, just to make sure all is in place etc. I would not be trying to question dealer's honesty, but just would want to drive a car that I never drove before. After all, everyone states that after I drive it off the lot after signing for it, it's all mine with any minor annoyances or troubles that come with it.
    My question is, how would the dealer react to such a request?
    Would my taking the car for a drive in this manner be considered "driving it off the lot"?

    thanks
  • fpereirafpereira Member Posts: 42
    Hi Isell, oh I disagree. Sunroofs almost without exception rattle, and the motor always* breaks, and the drain lines always* plug up, bringing water into the cabin.

    A sunroof is a wear item.** It breaks long before the useful life of the car ends. Of course, this is true about all the other gizmos on the car as well. For example, my passenger-side doorlocks haven't been quite as automatic as I would like. A sunroof is just one more thing to go wrong.

    I don't really care about sunroofs either; who brought up sunroofs anyway? :-)

    *barring preventative maintenance, i.e. replacing the motor before it breaks, or somehow "cleaning" the drainage lines. (Hmmm, can that be done?)

    **except on Hondas. On Hondas they just last forever. So just get over that sunroof thing, already. At Honda, we're on to bigger and better things.
  • bretfrazbretfraz Member Posts: 2,021
    I've had sunroofs in every car over the last 12 years and have never had the slightest problem.

    There were issues with them back in the 70s and 80s when most sunroofs were installed aftermarket. But the OE roofs have been pretty much perfected.

    And a sunroof has never hurt resale value.
  • ...Only helps it. Lack of sunroof hurts it.
  • im_brentwoodim_brentwood Member Posts: 4,883
    Nonleaky and perfectly functional Sunroofs on Inventory Vehicles I have:

    91 300E
    87 420SEL
    83 XJ6 (Piece of garbage trade, but roof works well and is unleaky)
    82 528e (ditto)
    94 Range Rover County LWB
    95 S500
    96 740iL
    95 XJ6
    96 XJ6 Vanden Plas
    95 900SE V6
    91 740 Turbo
    90 740GL
    95 850 Turbo

    Hmmm...

    Should I keep going?

    Bill
  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    Why the sarcasm?

    I too have owned many a car with a sunroof and have never had the slightest problem.

    The only sunroofs I've seen cause trouble have been on European cars. We took in a 89 Audi that had a roof that wouldn't work. The Audi was a junk wholesale piece with 175,000 miles on it.

    And since you mention Hondas...I've NEVER seen a Honda with a sunroof problem although I'm sure there is an occassional glitch.

    Unless you park under trees or something with the sunroof open the drains won't plug. If the do get plugged up, a shot of compressed air with a rubber tipped gun will clear them up.

    The motors don't "always" break, and the drains don't "always" plug up!

    But...hey, you got what you wanted and that's what really matters!
  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    Well, the Rover's sunroof works...WOW!

    But...does it start? Do the dash lights work?

    Sorry...I have no use for those things!

    Just me. I guess...
  • im_brentwoodim_brentwood Member Posts: 4,883
    Absolutely perfect.

    No leaks, no problems... this one is a honey.

    I'll post a link to pics you know where.

    If they are properly maintained, they arent all that bad...

    Bill
  • suzzannsuzzann Member Posts: 56
    My salesman offered me a test drive before I finalized my Subaru, I can't see why they'd object.
  • zueslewiszueslewis Member Posts: 2,353
    what about that 528e - is it a manual trans car? I'm looking for a sleeper project in which to install a small block Chevy. Had a friend that I helped drop an aluminum headed 383 stroker Chevy in an '88 535i - it was BAD!
  • isellpotiacisellpotiac Member Posts: 122
    It is mandatory that I offer a pre-signing test drive. Customers that will take a pre-signing test drive is less than 5%. The ones that will take the pre-signing test drive are customers that I have located and traded a car for. I see nothing wrong with the practice.
  • im_brentwoodim_brentwood Member Posts: 4,883
    The one I had on eBay?

    Yeah... it was (it sold).

    A small block in a 535i eh? :)

    Hmmm... :))

    But it would be more fun to find a 5-speed 85-87 735i..

    Bill
  • frankrichardsfrankrichards Member Posts: 39
    Chat Room! Wake up!!!

    m3fan-- "subject to test" written on an order signed by management is completely normal. If a dealer told me 'no way', I'd say no way to the dealer.
  • zueslewiszueslewis Member Posts: 2,353
    I've seen a '90 735 or 740 (I don't remember which) with a big block (468 - .030 over 454) and a Richmond 6-speed. I'm sure it'd dog any M5 around and a Z06 Vette for that matter. I don't want the 7-series because of the weight difference. No one expects a 5-series (especially a late '80s version) to smoke their Ram-Air Trans Am!
  • zueslewiszueslewis Member Posts: 2,353
    can I put a small block Chevy sideways in it?

    I just got a playtoy '86 Mustang 5.0. Gonna' do a 393 stroker (of a 351W). Fun on the autocross course as well as dusting rich boys in their toys.
  • im_brentwoodim_brentwood Member Posts: 4,883
    Fun is a small block in a Range Rover :)
  • im_brentwoodim_brentwood Member Posts: 4,883
    Imperial AA still owes me some titles...
  • windowphobe6windowphobe6 Member Posts: 765
    My daughter's '86 Accord was something less than perfectly sealed. Of course, it was more than a dozen years old at the time.

    There were some operating quirks to the sunroof on my '93 Mazda 626, but it never, ever leaked.
  • winkelwinkel Member Posts: 2
    If a sales person is disgruntled because you want to take your order our for a test drive before you take delivery, then something is wrong. When you order a vehicle, there should always be the option to back out. Granted, you do have to leave a deposit to order, but that should always be refundable. We always give our customers the first right of refusal when they order a vehicle. Then, if they don't want it, we give them their deposit back and put the vehicle on the lot for sale. We, as a dealer, are here to provide a service. If the dealer isn't meeting your expectations, you need to go somewhere else.

    Nick Vanderville
    Internet Manager
    Winkel Pontiac GMC Hummer
    -Reno Nevada-
  • zueslewiszueslewis Member Posts: 2,353
    Now that could be fun. (Until I have to pay for a brake job or other service)

    I put a 350 Chevy in a 1995 Jeep Cherokee 4WD last year. What a blast.
  • isellpotiacisellpotiac Member Posts: 122
    We have a policy of no refunds on ordered vehicles. Of course I have refunded on an ordered vehicle once. I am not talking thousands of dollars, sometimes as little as $100. The thing that we are trying to avoid is being stuck with a saleproof vehicle that was ordered with quirky options. Of course if something is wrong with vehicle when it comes in the customer has every right to the deposit. I think that is what most people worry about on ordered vehicles. One thing I won't do is dealer trade for a vehicle so a person can test drive it to see if they want it. People can't seem to understand this. Do you have an anniversary edition Trans Am yet?
  • bretfrazbretfraz Member Posts: 2,021
    And here I thought y'all hated them ;-)

    Had my 9-5 in for the 10K service. Tried to get a 9-3 Viggen as a loaner but they gave me the base cabrio instead. Still, fun.

    I'd love a 9000 Aero as a toy. But a 9-3 Viggen cabrio would be best.

    Saab is working on a "Viggen" version of the 9-5 due out in late '02. Should have 280-300HP; current Aero is 250HP.
  • sbell4sbell4 Member Posts: 446
    Go ahead and order me a Hummer with pink exterior with purple poka dots. Fax me over the deposit form and I will give you a deposit and will be happy to look at it when it comes in to your lot but if I don't like the color I can get my deposit back, right? Is fuzzy dice hanging from the mirrors a factory option? BTW, where do you work again?
  • michaellnomichaellno Member Posts: 4,120
    In '91, I was shopping for a Nissan Sentra SE. Dealer had red, I wanted to see the black (IIRC, SE's only came in Red, Black or White). Anyway, dealer trades for a Black SE for me to look at. The other dealer had decided to add grey pinstripes. Yuck. So, I ended up buying the red car.

    No hassle from the dealer.

    Now, with factory orders, I can understand the dealer's reluctance to allow the customer to "change their mind". I suppose it depends on what you sell, and how many options are available for the vehicle in question. If the special order is something that would sell anyway, hey, why not give the customer the ability to back out. But, like the guy who wants the pink and purple Hummer , "really special orders" that wouldn't normally be available in stock would need to be handled differently.

    My .02
  • badrammanbadramman Member Posts: 61
    Did anyone mention "shopping" for money before you get to the dealer? That way you can walk into a dealer and say you're paying cash for the car. It gives you alot more leverage when negotiating a price. Will this theory work when ordering a vehicle??
  • landru2landru2 Member Posts: 638
    Depending on the brand you are looking at, the idea of getting more leverage by paying "cash" can be a real misconception.

    In the big picture, it's all cash to the dealer, whether it comes from you or from a bank.

    Also, since banks pay the dealer to send them finance business, a dealer is actually more likely to sell for a lower price if you finance rather than pay "cash."

    Finally, speaking from a Ford store, I can offer rates far better than any bank on almost every model we sell. Unless you're using a large downpayment, it is always better to take Ford's low rates than it is to take the rebate and finance at a bank.
  • godeacsgodeacs Member Posts: 481
    Bill, I noticed the Volvo S90 wasn't on your list! Had to have mine replaced times within 19 months, 1st time when car was 2 yrs old (once under warranty and once at my expense - to say I was NOT pleased was an understatement).

    FTR, I hardly used the sunroof - no way it should have broke that frequently. The only good thing was I was able to get it closed both times ....lol

    Oh yeah, when I asked, the service rep said "yeah, we've had problems with sunroofs on the S90s..."

    So....my new car has no sunroof AND it's not a Volvo!....one less thing to worry about.....
  • dkneedsnwcrdkneedsnwcr Member Posts: 35
    I've got an '88 Accord, sunroof don't leak.

    I've got an '88 Acura Legend ... when it rains, I'm driving a swimming pool.

    Guess it's a crapshoot. Ordered my RSX, here's hoping this one don't leak.
    :)
  • frankrichardsfrankrichards Member Posts: 39
    badramman-- you have to shop the whole deal to 2 or more dealers? How else do you know you got a good deal, price, finance terms and conditions?
  • fpereirafpereira Member Posts: 42
    Yeah, my understanding agrees with Landru2, that dealers prefer you to finance with them. As Frank says, a "good deal" is hard to define without disclosing whether you payed by loan or cash; it's the whole package that counts.
  • tomj5tomj5 Member Posts: 209
    Is there a way to buy a car without going through a dealer??? I would like buy a car on the web and pick it up at the rail head. My local mechanic says that he can do the factory warrenty work?????
  • fangio2fangio2 Member Posts: 214
    Your mechanic can send you the recalls,get the parts you need and deal with the manufacturer over warranty issues.Let me know how it works out.
  • im_brentwoodim_brentwood Member Posts: 4,883
    Whenever I had to do a "wacky Order" it was always with a substantial nonrefundable deposit.

    And we're talking goofy stuff...

    Topaz/Charcoal (Gold with Black Guts) Vanden Plas
    XJ8 Without a Sunroof
    V70 T-5 Manual with no cold weather, No leather, no roof, no nothing.
    etc...

    Basically, stuff that we'd be hurt if we didnt inventory.

    (This is taken from an e-mail from a friend of mine who also sells Jags and I agree with him)

    I.E. Customer ordered a car from me once without a sunroof. Now, you can do this, but there is no price reduction. Customer was also emphatically warned of future resale problems, that we'd do it for a 10% Nonrefundable deposit, etc... Basically.. "We'll do it, but you're either taking delivery or losing your deposit" Customer signed a buyer's order with this clearly stated.

    I basically told him upfront that this was financially foolish.. but.. OK...

    Car comes in. He shows up "My friend said that I will have bad resale if I dont get the sunroof, I want one with a sunroof and he says I should pay invoice"

    (This was on a VERY hot and in-demand car where market was at best $1,000 off of MSRp, what he had agreed to).

    Nope. Not going to happen. We tried to explain our position, but he would have none of it. XJR at invoice? (In 1998 btw) Not going to happen.

    Customer throws a fit, is explained what the terms were, again, upfront. Customer says we have lost his business and wants his deposit back. Again, told that it is not refundable that it will be used to mark the car down.

    Car was advertised (MSRP was about $69K) for $57,900 or so for like 5 months before it sold.

    Bill
  • cupholder1cupholder1 Member Posts: 231
    I believe that buying guides recommend saying to the dealer that you will be paying cash until you can get a price set. if you tell them upfront lease or finance, you'll wind up spending the next hour fighting with them to give you actual sale and interest numbers instead of monthly payment amounts.
  • cupholder1cupholder1 Member Posts: 231
    that i believe it is better to be upfront with the dealer and not say cash if it won't be cash. if the dealer plays monthly payment games, just get up and walk. there are honest dealerships out there who won't play games.
  • 719b719b Member Posts: 216
    if you prearrange financing before you shop for a car, you can tell the dealer you are paying cash without being dishonest.
    the only time the dealer is concerned about payments is when he is financing your purchase.
    i think it would be easier for you to get the sales person to talk price instead of payments if he knows up front that you are not financing through him.
    of course some dealers are offering some great rates right now.
    the down side of low dealer financing may be that they won't sell you a car at that low rate unless you pay msrp and buy useless add-ons.

    this is why you should do your research... too many variables.
  • I like to work out the deal as cash. Then, let the salesman offer to beat your financing. I understand they quite often can.
    That 0% stuff is certainly hard to beat!
  • landru2landru2 Member Posts: 638
    And will probably work fine for the handful of people that contribute to these forums. But the reality of dealing with this issue everyday is quite different.

    What almost universally happens is that someone reads somewhere that they can get a better price if they say they're paying cash. So they negotiate a cash price refusing any discussion of payments. Then they want to know how much their payments will be. Then they inevitably freak out when the selling price goes up by $2000 (or whatever) because they cannot get the cash rebate if they finance. Often the deal will be lost here as the customer leaves either to save face or because they don't believe what they are being told.

    Also, the level of mathematical ignorance in the general public is astounding. There are huge numbers of people that will go through the whole sales process, negotiate a price on a $40,000 truck and are then shocked to find out they can't get payments of $350 a month with $0 down.

    So although talking about payments exclusively *can* be a way to increase the purchase price, most reputable salespeople will at least bring it up to determine that the customer's payment expectations are at least realistic.
  • 719b719b Member Posts: 216
    you're right. i forgot about the rebate. can't get 0% and a rebate.
  • easyrider300measyrider300m Member Posts: 1,116
    I bought my car at below invoice and got .9% financing. Mentioned I wanted low financing right from the start. Question: Are rebates always built into the price a dealer offers you, or it it sometimes figured in after the deal and sometimes sent direct to customer AFTER the car is delivered. Most other product rebates come in the mail after the product is purchased. Are car rebates different.
  • easyrider300measyrider300m Member Posts: 1,116
    exactly what maintenance is recommended on a sunroof--lube?, alignment? line clearing?---and at what intervals?
  • landru2landru2 Member Posts: 638
    Rebates are almost always applied directly to the price of the car because most people want to use the rebate to lower the price they pay. When this happens, the customer has to complete a form signing over the rebate to the dealer so they can use it to lower the price.

    If you prefer, you can leave the price higher and have a cheque for the rebate amount sent to you.

    In your case, if there was say, a choice of .9% or $2000 rebate your price would've been $2000 less if you hadn't taken the .9%.

    All ad prices will be using the rebate and all ad payments will be using the low rate.
  • easyrider300measyrider300m Member Posts: 1,116
    you must be a car dealer. My advice for a pleasurable buying experience: do your homework and come to the dealer with a good idea of what you feel is a fair price to pay. Shop at least 3 dealers and make them earn your business. Dont be afraid to walk. If car sales are in decline, hold out for your expected price as long as dealer is making a reasonable profit. Dont get hung up on emotions. The car you want will probably be available elsewhere or can be ordered.
    And foremost: negotiate, negotiate, negotiate--
  • easyrider300measyrider300m Member Posts: 1,116
    I wont say my last car buying experience was totally without negative incident. But I did buy from the dealer I initially visited and at the price we initially negotiated. Upon negotiating price, I went to one other dealer and was quoted a price over $1500 higher even after talking to the diamond pinky ring, hanky in Armani suit pocket, intimitating mafia look alike sales manager who wouldnt budge on his salesman's offered price. Of course, I stated I could get a much better deal elsewhere, but he refused to budge. When the manger left, I told the wet behind the ears salesman that I would be buying at his competitor due to lower price. His arrogant response was: "Dont bother to have your car serviced here." Well, I responded that I will have the car serviced anywhere I desire as all dealers are required to offer warranty service on their manufacturer's vehicle. I attribute his statement to his novice experience in dealing with the customer. 3 weeks later I get a call from him offering to lower his price. My response: sorry, I already purchased a car at the price I offered to buy it from his dealership.
This discussion has been closed.