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Find me at kirstie_h@edmunds.com - or send a private message by clicking on my name.
2015 Kia Soul, 2021 Subaru Forester (kirstie_h), 2024 GMC Sierra 1500 (mr. kirstie_h)
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The A6M type 00 fighter and the B4M bomber, better known as the Zero or Zeke fighter and Betty bomber!
But it's all ok in the end, these were flying tin cans (literally). A single MG burst from a Wildcat or Hellcat would cause them to busrt into flames. Just ask Admiral Yamamoto, who was riding in a Betty on day in April 1943...
Still, I would take the reliability of a Mitsubishi WAY over that of any european car.
As used cars they are just SO hard to sell. Nobody even seems to know what they are and the stores that still sell them are few and far between.
The solution? Do a lot of research before you go to buy a car. Know exactly what you are willing to pay.
Of course, we can still enjoy talking with the sales person. When we bought our car in March, the salesman and I had an interesting discussion about physics and cosmology while we were waiting for the car to be prepped. It made our car buying experience much more enjoyable.
asafonov: Do you recall the original example that was being discussed (post 2759)? In that case, the salesman sold an "uneducated" female buyer a 2 yr old used car for MORE than the price of a new one. I believe the vehicle was a Pontiac Grand Am, which depreciates like a rock. Things were slipped in to the contract that the buyer didn't read.
My response (post 2761) was that the salesman was unethical, IMHO.
dbauer's response (post 2804) was that if he didn't do what the original salesman did, he was doing his family a disservice by bringing home less bacon when he had an opportunity like that.
And my take on all that is that salesman like those .... well......no I won't post my true feelings here.
Hmmm, I wonder what kind of people actually look at themselves in the mirror every morning and say to themselves, gee I'm successful, I just made a bundle selling a used vehicle for more than a new one to some stupid idiot. Wow, I'm good.
Enough said......
A lot of used cars have asking prices higher than the actual transaction price of a new one.. Anyone that buys a car without knowing that price is negotiable, has only themselves to blame..
And, amazingly, I think dbauer is correct.. If someone comes in and buys for the inflated asking price, then adds all the finance office crap, it is his duty as an employee of the dealership to sell the car for that price..
Being dumb isn't a crime, but not knowing you are dumb is just inexcusable.. Any one can ask for help.. People do it on Edmunds frequently.
A salesman who screwed up that deal wouldn't be in the business long... I think it is kind of sad, but really, that isn't his problem..
regards,
kyfdx
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probably not...why would the salesperson?
just my 2 cents...
-thene
I see what you mean, kyfdx, about asking prices of used vehicles. Heck, I bought an '04 Tacoma last year and paid several $K less than some of the asking prices of identical '03 Tacos on autotrader.com
Things were slipped in to the contract that the buyer didn't read.
Now that's inexcusable, on the buyer's part, that is.
I think what makes the car business somewhat unique is the availability of MSRPs and invoice prices (and, to a lesser extent, used price guides,) which enable us here to speculate about fair and unfair deals. But then, didn't the dealers' behaviour way back cause the legislation that mandated the MSRP stickers? and invoice prices just percolated to the buyers because "the information wants to be free?"
The car is just a tangible good. Assuming we are not talking Ferraris, it has no appreciation, but it does have significant depreciation.
The dealership who does not tell their customer, "You don't want this used car, I have a new one for a similar price", is immoral. Yes, the customer should get advice about such a significant purchase, and not go into a dealership blind. Does a customer's ignorance excuse this behavior? NO. There is an absolute right and wrong in this world. A dealer selling a used car for more than a similar new one is immoral. Period. No debate. No buyer beware. This is WRONG. It is especially wrong because it is such an expensive item, and the dealer just stole a person's LIVELIHOOD from them. If this happened with a low dollar item (a radio, a kitchen blender...), it would still be wrong, but wouldn't affect the person's entire life, and wouldn't suck huge resources from other things in their life.
I think one should ask, "Could I sell my mom a used car for more than a new one?" When one answers themselves, "No, not in a million years," this answer will typically point to the right direction.
This is not the salesman's fault. Such problems from a company are the fault of the management. Trickle down happens. Either in our favor or against us, but the ethics start at the top.
not saying anyone is right or wrong, but it is not the job of the salesperson to knock his own price down just because a consumer is uneducated. if they are willing to pay the price, then we are willing to sell at that price.
just my thoughts
-thene
BTW, it is either immoral or not to sell used for more than new, price should not be an issue, in the Kantian sense :P
On the previous post by thenebean, I rarely agree with her on these forums, but she is absolutely right on this one.
Do sales people care about me? Nope, all they want is my money.
Once a person accepts the facts of life and learns to deal with them, life is a lot easier.
Voltaire said that he never knew a wise man who wished he were younger. That is so true.
you're right, we don't always see eye to eye ;-) but if everyone felt the same about everything, what would be the point?
any comments or suggestions i make are never intended to offend or upset anyone, they are just my viewpoints from my side of the desk (wink wink!)
anyways, comments from both sides are greatly appreciated, since that is how we both will get a better understanding of the whole process!
-thene
Regarding, why is this not the customer's problem in total? I did say they should be educated. However, look at it this way: On the car lot, put the used car right next to the comparable new car. Put giant price stickers on both of them. Will there be ANY choice as far as the customer is concerned once you show these to them? There is a lie which is considered less of a lie in society for some reason, and that is withholding information.
I understand how incentives can exacerbate this problem for the dealer, and now I am going to look like a rude customer. But if a dealer is stuck with a used car, and their cost approaches that of a new car, too bad. Do not take the trade. Markup the new car price and lower the trade to more of what the value is worth when you take it in. Spread the loss around. Use a better solution.
I would hope a dealer would not have a great deal of used cars that approach new car prices. Wouldn't something be wrong with that operation?
Sure makes the used one look good.
Then the fun comes....the F&I guy, advertising fee, loan processing fee, doc. prep fee, interest rate markup, gap ins, ext. warranty, prepaid maint. plan, choke & croak ins, etc. etc. So many ways for the dealer to make money off the uneducated buyer. Not a business for me, too much of a nice guy I guess.
"A fool and his money are soon parted."
Daimler didn't build tanks for the Germans. The german automotive industry didn't have the capacity for that sort of heavy equipment manufacturing. It was all they could do to keep up with truck production (and were woefully short of that). Companies like MAN and Henschel built the chassis while Krupp and Rheinmettall made the (excellent) cannons.
Of the large powers in WWII, only the US was successful in adopting its (large) automotive industry to tank building, which is why we built more than everyone else combined.
Now if you want to talk about MB staff cars.....
And I'm not fond of the overpriced german cars either.
Still, if someone walks up to a car on our used car lot and says " I'll take it" I'm not going to suggest they maybe try a lower price. For that customer, that car represents good value and if they are happy with paying the full asking price that's fine with me.
I've often asked this question and have yet to receive an answer.
You decide to sell your used car. Knowing how people like to dicker, you price it 1000.00 more than you'll be happy to take. You've researched this to death and you know your asking price is probably more than it's really worth.
First day, someone shows up and hands you all the money.
Would you offer a discount?
Anything wrong here?
Now, on the other hand, if you know the transmission slips after the car warms up and you fail to disclose it, then you are a crook!
OTOH, failing to disclose a defect would warrant a severe thrashing! I bought a few cars way back with hidden problems - didn't like it, and won't do it to someone else.
But a private sellers would only charge a few hundred more from people that can really afford it because they do a thorough financial check of the buyer and give them a short lecture on financial responsibility before the sale.
Tongue firmly in cheek. :P
i wish i knew voodoo jedi mind tricks to help me sell cars for thousands more than they are worth! gollee jee whiz i'd be rich :-)
i guess i'll have to stick to selling at invoice...
-thene
...wait a minute....
never mind ;-)
That's the thing. If I as a private seller, ask $10,000.00 (but would settle for $9,000.00) and someone offers the ten thousand right away, that's what the car will cost him/her (plus 7% at the state RMV).
OTOH, the dealer will then try to tack on another 3-4 thousand for this that and the other thing :surprise: And a lot of times, they get away with all or part of these "efforts" :mad:
That's what riles most folks...
try to find these poor souls by asking every customer whether they are poor, unsuspecting...etc...
you wont find any...lol.
That's the thing. If I as a private seller, ask $10,000.00 (but would settle for $9,000.00) and someone offers the ten thousand right away, that's what the car will cost him/her (plus 7% at the state RMV).
OTOH, the dealer will then try to tack on another 3-4 thousand for this that and the other thing And a lot of times, they get away with all or part of these "efforts"
That's what riles most folks...
Well ?.....
I've got nothing against salesman who can get the inflated asking price of a used car which just happens to be more than the going price for an identical new one. Even if they're good enough to sell an ext. warranty, pre-paid maint. plan, gap ins, mop n glow, choke & croak ins, rustproofing, etc., etc. All of those are valid products, not for me or most folks, but they're still valid.
But when they don't represent what the vehicle has, intentionally or not (i.e. 4 cyl vs 6 cyl), slip things in to the contract hoping the buyer misses them (doc fee, loan proc. fee, adv. fee, etc), then they've crossed the line.
And yes, I do know people who couldn't tell a 4 cyl from a 6 cyl by looking at the engine.....LOL.
if we didn't have that type of dealership so close to us, we'd not be selling at the prices we do
if people go to shop their numbers, we always tell them our numbers are real, we stand by them, and if they find the numbers they got from this other dealer are in any way false or fake, to come back and see us.
we win some, we lose some...
btw, caddy - like i said in my post above, we only add the $249. if you CHOOSE to buy warranties, gap, lojack, simoniz, then it will add up, but you dont HAVE to...
so i guess in my case, we're only adding $249 :-)
-thene
depending on your situation, some products are good for some, and not for others. if you dont want any, politely decline. if they are pre-printed, ask for them removed. if they wont, im sure there is another dealer around who doesn't play such games!
-thene
Maybe things are different state by state or dealer by dealer. But here in Florida, I've NEVER seen a handwritten purchase order. Everything agreed upon has been verbal only. When I get to the F&I office, I've had to check and double check all the paper work.......not fun..... And in EVERY case, I've had to say things like... "take out the $100 loan proc. fee" or "I'm not paying that fee".... They've ALWAYS tried to slide something in.
I really hate those games......and have had some use high pressure trying to get me to pay, which I didn't.....have even gotten so ticked I walked out w/o buying the car.
here, when a customer agrees to buy a car, i handwrite a preliminary purchase order in front of them, and have them sign it with all the figures on it, equipment on vehicle, trade in, etc. when they go in to see the finance manager, the only add ons would be if they choose to buy simoniz, extended warranty, etc. nothing is ever added above and beyond if it wasnt included on the first purchase order, or if a customer chooses one of those products...
i dont know if thats a state thing (im in CT) but it makes things nice - we even give the customer a copy of the handwritten copy that they can look over and compare to the printed one when they come back...maybe thats just us - but we like to make things easy, fair, and nonconfrontational. we will get some folks in once in a while that just HAVE to be confrontational, even if there is nothing to be confrontational about!
we had a woman once come in and buy an xterra. she chose the rebate + financing instead of just the straight rebate (which was a higher dollar amount). well she comes in to pick up the truck, and she brings her brother, who starts yelling and screaming that another dealer beat our price by...yup, you guessed it...the differences in rebates ($1000 and 1% financing vs. just $2400)
we tried to explain it to him, but he got loud and unruly - my manager threw him out, and we never delivered the vehicle, nor would he if they came back...
-thene :shades:
Anyway, my point was, on a private sale, Asking for 10 thousand, (but would accept 9 thousand) someone offers 10 thousand, THAT'S ALL THEY ARE PAYING (not talking tax now), but at a dealer, windshield price for a used car is 10,000, there IS some number below that that the dealer would sell for - (perhaps 2 thousand or more off), someone offers the 10 thousand, BUT THAT'S ONLY THE BEGINNING. There's the doc fee, I've seen tag processing fees (on top of doc fees!), Advertising fees (on a USED car ?!?!?!), then financing trickery, mop n glo, gap ins, CREDIT LIFE (don't get me started on that one), etc.so the 10, thousand ends up being 13 thousand (not including state sales tax. That's what gets me going. :mad:
Maybe it's all "optional" but that's not the way some dealers try to make it appear.
BTW, My last 500 doc fee was "optional" too. I had them increase my agreed upon trade allowance by 500 to make it go away.
Well, that would be a deal breaker for me. I would never sign an informal handwritten note.
We are happy to sign the final bill of sale and the check we hand over, but I would never sign a handwritten note.
those dealers who add all that stuff and pretend its always part of the deal irks me. we honestly offer people the opportunity to buy any of those products if they wish, but if they turn us down, we move on. nothing except for the doc fee is pre-printed on the purchase order here!
-thene
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
also, it is signed by the sales manager as well - it's by no means a note, as you put it.
-thene :-)
I am a pretty cooperative person. I am definitely willing to give my SSN to the salesman and let them do a credit check on me. Since I am offering to give them a piece of paper (my check) for a nice new car, I think the dealer is entitled to do a credit check.
But ask me to sign a unnecessary document and the answer is No.