Dealer's Tricks - bait & switch, etc.

graphicguy

Trade-ins are indeed a good profit center.

But, those used cars are a "hazy" business deal. I can see both sides...the dealer's and the trader's. The dealer can get burried on a trade just as easily as a new car buyer can get burried in their new car purchase.

If a trade is tied to a new car sale, I doubt the new car salesperson gives a flip about the trade's worth since they are being compesated to sell you a new car.

From the dealer's perspective, they may have to put some $$$ into the trade in order to have it saleable on their lot. That can range from something as simple as a detail job to something more akin to a rebuild. Fact is, they don't know with a simple 10 minute test drive. Then, they have their own money (not the bank's) tied up in it until it sells. Who knows how many of those nice clean Malibus are floating around town for sale that the dealer has to compete with. The only way for them to really have a decent idea of what it's worth in your area is to look up the recent auctions (so they can at least recoup their money at the auction if your trade doesn't sell).

On the trader's side, this is a car that you've lived with and is almost part of the family. When you're offered the auction value of your car, you become insulted because it's a personal posession that they are "low balling".

The way I've found to get the best trade amount is to include a binder with every receipt of everything that has been done to the car while I owned it....including warranty and maintenance work. That takes some of the "fear" out of it for the dealer. I do this with all my cars. I also make sure I detail the trade before I take it to the dealer to show them how "nice" the car is so they won't have to invest any time into "refurbishing" it.

I'm sure a good sales person will "hone in" on what your "hot button" is. If you seem "stuck" on your trade value, they may overallow for it, but be more "Hard-nosed" on the new car purchase price. If it's the cost of the new car, the sales person would "hone in" on the price of the new car.

If you're getting a "skinny deal" on the new car, don't expect to get much overallowance over auction prices for your trade, though.

If there's $200 seperating the dealer making a deal and me buying a car, I usually offer to split the difference. That will get the deal done. If I'm getting bumped by the salesperson, I don't mind. My response is "their's no more money available in this deal". Conversely, I'll try to "bump" the salesperson on my trade, too.

imidazol97

Be careful Bobst. You'll get called a militant, antidealer guy and ordered to lay off the nasty stuff. LOL

imidazol97

> i know you are a militant anti-dealer guy, (sic)

Come on. Show me! I've written about bad dealers that try to pack the price. I have praised good dealers and salesmen who are essentially honest (probably more than the buyers about cars they're trading or their credit records where they need credit).

>lay off the nasty stuff.

Only my mother and the host can order me around. This shouldn't get personal! We're here for fun and discussion and learning.

>That takes some of the "fear" out of it for the dealer.

My salesman indicated he knows many problems that develop with used cars so he knows what's likely wrong before he even starts it and drives it.
Because they are honest dealers, most of their customers are repeats so they know the cars and the owners. I trust them to have checked and priced correctly if I had bought some of the used Park Aves I looked at.

dbauer

"Dealers usually cheat the customer more on the used car value than on the new car profit."

this is the statement that i have problems with. sweeping generalizations that insult other people. if you need a refresher course in forum etiquette, im sure the hosts would love to give you one.

Kirstie_H

but I'll keep it short and sweet - NO sweeping generalizations about any profession, and no personal attacks.

kyfdx

Oh.. I don't know... it is all of those hosts that really... oops.. never mind..

imidazol97

>this is the statement that i have problems with. sweeping generalizations that insult other people. if you need a refresher course in forum etiquette, im sure the hosts would love to give you one.

Somehow I don't think I'm the one who needs a course in forum etiquette if that is the ONLY statement with which you have trouble.

Let me explain my thinking.
There's more room to underpay a customer on a tradein than there is on the new car pricing, especially since many people have a good idea of invoice and dealer holdback. Dealer may be doing 6-800 on the new car deal. However on a trade that's retailed at a real $16000, the wholesale may be $12000 and the dealer talks down the trade value and gives $10000 even while the $12000 had a great markup potential. That's a lot more profit than on the <$1000 new car sale portion.

dbauer

that would have been fine with me...but you used the word "cheat", which implies dishonesty.

Kirstie_H

You can make the same point, but in a nicer way. People do it all the time, face-to-face. The expectations are no different here.

dsattler

I don't know what dealers some of you visit, but the last two times I bought a car I was offered a little more than I expected for my trade-ins. In fact, when I bought my Mazda Miata the used car manager was planning to wholesale my trade-in to someone else (dealership didn't want to keep it to sell). He said "I called three guys, the best price I got was $2,500." I thought that was a very good number and said okay. When I came back the next day to pick up my new car, the used car manager came out and said "I got a call back form a fourth guy I had called yesterday. He said $2,700. So we'll give you $2,700."

There are honest, ethical people in this business.

imidazol97

dbauer: You read much more negative into the word than I meant. I mean the dealer takes advantage of the fact that most people don't know the real trade-in market value of their car. They mislead or fool the customer. Sometimes this involves talking down the trade-in. The dealers try to know which cars have more value and less value. It's my opinion that some people get much less on the trade-in value than they should because of the scenario I described in my earlier message.

If the customer knows the personal sale value they likely could get and if they know the real-world trade-in value, they are in a better position to negotiate. But I don't believe most buyers are concerned about the trade-in value or the new car value separately. The majority are interested only in how low the payment amount can be lowered. They should be analyzing the total deal.

hfang

The bad dealers and salespeople really do ruin it for the good ones, which are not that easy to find. And it's not just confined to more mundane makes. I was in the market recently for a new/used Boxster-

Dealer 1 (Joe Rizza Porsche / Chicago) - I asked about a used 2003 Boxster S I saw on cars.com. Salesguy told me it was a one owner car put into service on 1/04, so it had 36 months of warrantee left. I asked him to confirm this because I didn't want to drive an hour from Naperville to find out that this was not the case. He reassured me. Went out there, drove the car, looked nice, then asked to look at the carfax which he was reluctant to show. Turns out it was a 2 owner car and was originally purchased in 12/02- meaning it had only 23 months of warrantee left. He tried to brush it off as irrelevant- didn't even apologize for his mistake, or my waste of driving 2 hours to and from his dealership. I called his sales manager to tell him what happened. I don't think he cared either. Just wanted to get me into the dealership.

Dealer 2- (Napleton Porsche / Chicago) - we were negotiating the trade in value of my 2004 Z4/6-spd. Salesguy tells me that they just gave another guy $2K less on trade for an "identical car". I come back to the dealership the following week, I see a 2003 Z4 with an automatic instead. Salesguy admits this was the car they took in on trade. No apology - just a "but this one has the sports package and yours doesn't". I don't think so. 20 months more warrantee and a newer model year is worth way more than the sports package. Not the "identical" car IMHO.

Dealer 3- (Napleton Porsche / Chicago) - last year, they posted an ad in the Chicago Tribune for boxster leases at $429/month. I called them from work and inquired- they told me they had a bunch of available vehicles at this price. I told them I really didn't want to be misled because it would take me about 40 minutes to get there during rush hour- did't want to waste time. Salesguy reassures me everything is on the up and up. I rush there after work, to find that the $429 price applied to only one car, which wasn't available anymore, but that I could have one of the other ones for >$500/month. I confronted him about what he said on the phone- he just ignored me.

The stories go on and on. Deliberate lies about # of owners, amount of warrantee left, paint work and accidents, misleading advertisements, bait and switch... it really goes on and on. Once or twice, I can see it happening. When it just happens over and over, I hope the dealers here can see how the average consumer can get leery. Again, that's not to say there aren't good salespeople and dealerships. We found a great salesperson at McGrath Lexus in Westmont and have bought from her 3 times, and have referred others to her as well. But she sure ain't the norm-

bobst

What's wrong with that? The $100 is a lot happier in my pocket than it is in theirs.

rroyce10

..... I'm sorry you have had some problems and some bad communication ...

I have read some of your posts on other matters, and you've owned a lot of nice expensive vehicles ('95 LS400, '97 M3, '00 CLK430, '01 CLK55, '01 M5, '01 A8L and now a GS400/RX330/Boxster S) so you "know" what your looking for - and your picky, and thats not a bad thing, it's a you thing ...

That being said, we are all consumers .. we purchase homes, boats, vehicles, travel, jewelry, etc, etc ...

Me personally, I don't like looking at 20 homes and finding that 15 need $25,000++ worth of work just to make them saleable - thats why I do my own research, I know the history, I know the neighborhood, I find the tax base and I talk to the neighbors about potential flooding and I have one of the best home inspectors on the planet, cuz' I'm picky too - on the other side, I have a Real Estate agent telling me it won't last, it's a great deal, it needs nothing and I need to keep an open mind .. now I'm sure he'll sell it, but not to me, I know what I'm looking for ...

I just spent 3 days at the Miami boat show, 200 boat dealer including the Euro dealers .. some boats were $6,000 and some were $6 million and somewhere in the middle they sold 5,000 boats .. most should be very happy with their purchase and some will hate it .. I have a funny feeling the ones that didn't do their research, understand the pricing or the product and what their "real" needs are, should be in for a very bad ride in 6 months ..

It's a consumers world and "everyone" is different ~ you need to look before you leap and study all the variables .. in your case, you need to be getting the Vin# and spend the $29(?) for the Carsmack before you drive 20 minutes, let alone 2 hours .. perhaps you need to get a "contact" person before you go, Sales manager, GM, whatever and specify your wants and needs .. remember what your neighbor, friend or a business associate might think is a great vehicle, might only be average to you - it's common ... I buy 400/500 vehicles a year, but I know their history before I even roll over the curb .. at least thats a good start.

I'm not defending any of the dealers actions, believe me .. but most buyers don't care if a vehicle has a 32 month warranty or a 21 month warranty, most buyers don't care if it's light silver or medium grey, "most" buyers overlook a lot of things like old switched out garbage disposals and 5 year old pool pumps .. I don't - and either should you ...... research my friend, research .................



Terry.

cadillacmike

on a boat. It's nearly impossible, I gave up a new boat partially for this reason.

If buyers think the car sales realm is stacked against buyers, they shouldn't look into boats anytime soon.

rroyce10

..... Things have changed quite a bit in the last few years .... I remember just a few short years ago when you had to meet with the VP just to get a "real" print-out, let alone a price ...

Today, just about all of them have great sites .. Chaparral, Cobalt, Rinker, Sea Ray, Monterey, Regal, Four Winns, Formula ... they even have the: "build it yourself" with colors, graphics and the options ... they even show all of the rebates, another changing market ...............

Try: www.boattest.com

Terry.

chuminthewater

OK. But this thread is about cars, no?

driftracer

and chum, you're not the host, or the town sheriff, so be nice.

Kirstie_H

I think the point was simply that it could be worse - at least there are many pricing sources out there for vehicles, but let's get back on topic. Thanks!

chuminthewater

And my point was just as valid. So what, when I am ready to buy a boat, then I will have to do even more homework - is that supposed to make me feel better about how screwed up the act of buying a car is?

Please my kids make that argument - as in well you think this is bad, it's great compared to that.

Does not solve tis problem though.

jasmith52

The Two Happiest Days in Your Life:

The first is the day you buy your new boat

And the second is the day you finally sell it !

1racefan

Boat (noun) - Device used to create large hole in the lake in which to toss money, to never be seen again.

dbauer

"Does not solve tis problem though."

and your solution would be...???

chuminthewater

Actually, I have discussed solutions in the thread on buying tips. Thanks for asking.

But, realistically, there is no solution, because the auto industry simply chooses to not change. And, until they do, until they no longer try to create adversarial relationships between buyer and seller, and hide costs, and add hidden costs, and other things, well there will be no good from the car seller - buyer relationship.

See, the buyers have changed. They no longer go like sheep to the slaughter. And, as a result, the car sellers have gotten (collectively) more difficult.

I do all my auto buying on line or buy phone, there is NO negotiating when I arrive to pick up my vehicle and do paperwork. In fact, I have my financing lined up prior to arrival as well. That forces either more time to be saved at the dealer or the dealer to find me a better rate (for his kickback in that area).

jasmith52

Don't complain about the car buying system. We have the system that you and everyone else voted for with your money when you buy a car.

If you wouldn't do business with non-ethical sales-people then they would go away pretty fast.

Your vote with your money tells me that you value saving $10-20 over a straight-up deal.

blh7068

"See, the buyers have changed. They no longer go like sheep to the slaughter. And, as a result, the car sellers have gotten (collectively) more difficult."

What do you mean by "go like sheep to the slaugther"?

I went to a dealer that had the color of vehicle in the trim level I wanted and struck a deal in 15 minutes- no muss no fuss. Per online invoice prices my deal was 450 over.

I'm certainly not any more saavy than the next person-buying a car doesnt have to be hard. A little self educating goes a long way imo.

Know what you want, find it at a dealer that youre willing to business with. Know(through research) what you're willing to pay.

My dealer was straight up in every way and would purchase again from them in a heartbeat. I know some dont play nice- if thats the case DONT BUY from them.

chuminthewater

How do you know this? That I saved 10 or 20 bucks that is?

Actually I saved about 400 to 500 bucks off the best price I was offered.

I did it with no issues, I did it with no pressure.

It was easy and I dealt with the most scrupulous dealer I could find.

PS, is the b you put in my name for "better deal?"

chuminthewater

You are happy, good for you. I mean lambs to slaughter as in doing things the old way, without regard for finding new methods to accomplish things better.

I was prepared to buy my Honda at invoice - but expected resistance.

My research showed that I could do better than that, but that I might have an all day event - something I vowed would never happen again.

I ended up getting my car for about $800 under invoice.

And did so with no negotiations required.

I called my dealer, told him the price offered by another closer dealer, he beat it, and also upped the lowball trade by $1k.

All accomplished on the phone and email.

When we arrived he offered to get us a better rate on financing and we, while skeptical allowed him to. He succeeded.

We left, rather quickly for the all the work done, and were very satisfied. As a result, he got at least 1 more sale - from someone I recommended on these very boards.

That is a rare example of a dealer learning to deal in today's world.

jglackin

The greater problem is that buyers like you (self-described), generally don't know when to stop. I always give my best number upfront and in writing (Internet Manager), and I get calls every day..."I called dealer x, and they'll beat your price by $100." I'm surprised that you didn't say in your post that you called your local dealer and tried to get them to beat the price that was just beaten.

One real issue you may have is that you don't have the time to develop a rapport with a salesman. Don't overlook the value here - I have personally gone to bat for many of my customers and gotten lower service bills, free services, loaner cars, etc.

chuminthewater

Why say that?

I never once asked any dealer to go lower than another dealer offered.

And IN FACT, I asked the second closest dealer to beat the price of the closer dealer (due to their lowballing).

The fact that they did so, and easily at that, combined with the added trade value, continues to suggest that there may have been even more room to haggle.

But, I elected not to, as I was quite satisfied with the price.

I have read others getting better deals on the new and substantially more on similar trades.

I was enlightened on the pathetic trade values, but clearly there was still room on the new for even more savings - had I any desire to go lower.

The fact is I stuck to my plan, and my word, they made an offer - I countered with another dealers quote, the selling company beat that deal.

I don't know when to quit? Frankly comments like that sound still stuck on old school and greedy.

chuminthewater

That a rapport may have value.

But the things given are not exactly free - they may end up costing me - a service contract, not my thing, by the way, I got 2 oil changes and free safety inspections for life.

That is what this company offers.

This company also shuttles me to subway - if I need it, I don't do add on cost items, and my mechanic usually does most of my non-warranty work.

Is there value in rapport - sure, but how much? I just don't know.

I suspect it is situation dependent. See, a salesman is going to bat for the customer because they want a sale, not because they are best friends - normally.

isellhondas

I LOVE it when another dealer is dumb enough to do this. A moochy shopper will ALWAYS shop the number and I can always beat it.

I once had a "smart shopper" drive over 100 miles to see me over a measly 50.00.

No wonder I'm quickly losing interest in all of this.

bobst

Maybe some customers like a dealer who will give a straightforward answer to the age-old question, "What is the lowest price you will accept for this car?"

Sure, some of the car byers will take this figure and go somewhere else. Other buyers, like myself in 1985, will buy the car on the spot if the price sounds at all reasonable.

I doubt the dealers who give out prices are dumb. It is just their way of doing business, and I bet a lot of buyers appreciae it.

mirth

You have 20 Honda dealers in a 50 mile radius, more than half of which were willing to email you a quote. Isn't it a little presumptuous to assume that your method is going to work for everyone, or even most people?

One problem with the quote method is that you never really know if the quote is valid until you get to the dealership, and sometimes until you're well into the deal. Sometimes they have hidden fees ("but, we charge a $300 doc fee for ALL our customers"), sometimes the vehicle is not right ("oh, I thought you said you wanted a purple car"), or sometimes they'll lowball your trade-in (because, really, how can they give you an accurate quote without ever seeing your car?).

I agree with Bob that some people would appreciate the quote and buy right there if the price was right. There are likely an equal or greater number that would go to the next dealer and say "ABC Motors will sell me the car for $XX,XXX - can you beat that?"

driftracer

A quote may be a good place to start IF you know what your target price is, you accept the fact that things may change once you get to the dealership, and you can forget about getting your trade evaluated over the internet.

In other words, a quote doesn't do much good at all, except to provide you a point of contact.

ddelise

Interesting topic. Personally, I prefer to shop a couple of local dealers. At the very least, you can see if your first dealer is at least offering a reasonable price. And I definitely agree with Mirth when he mentions hidden fees.

For example, I sent a message to a local dealer through GM Buy Power, stating I was beginning the buying process (will do so in 3 months). I asked very specific questions about price, rebates, compatability of rebates with GM card earnings and lease/purchase, and dealer fee. The dealer responded right away with answers to all my questions.

His price was very fair ($100 or so over Edmunds invoice), he indicated what rebates would apply to my situation, and also stated their dealer fee is $499.

In my reply to him I thanked him for his reply and time, and said I would continue to be in contact to meet with him and take a test drive. I said I felt his dealer fee was a little on the steep side, and hopefully we could work around that somewhat to not make it a deal breaker.

I feel both of us are being very reasonable and will be able to work towards a deal. Am I squeezing every last nickle out of the deal? Probably not. Am I trying to get a fair and reasonable deal? Definitely.

driftracer

buying at invoice, who knows what they're doing, doesn't waste a bunch of time, is GREAT!

Why? Because a quick deal can be made, the salesman gets a mini and an "x" on the board that counts towards bonuses, and the more important thing is that they haven't wasted a day and a half, and can get right back to work finding another customer.

chuminthewater

Not one of the dealers I communicated via email with wasted more than the 15 minutes it took them to reply. Not one minute more.

And we both know this.

So, again? Where are we?

Kirstie_H

we're at the STOP NOW point.

First of all, this kind of conversation belongs in the purchasing strategies discussion, with which you are all familiar. Further posts about shopping strategies in this topic will be deleted.

Second, anything containing even a hint of a personal comment gets zapped. If we can't stop calling names or putting labels on people, we'll just stop posting privileges altogether.

dbauer

i dont understand...every time we go to a seperate thread of this discussion, you guys make a new board. it really creates a huge discontinuity in the conversation, which is very counterproductive to the purpose of this forum.

jasmith52

I agree, The host here should delete vicious personal attacks but they should let the conversation flow pretty much wherever.

The host jumping in every six messages to spank children who say the wrong thing acts as a huge damper on the thread.

kyfdx

I, personally, love the Hosts.. Every darn one of them....

dbauer

ummm...get a kleenex for that stuff on your nose, dude...

;-)

Kirstie_H

Sorry to be blunt, but your agreement or disagreement with our policies doesn't enter into the equation. I can't (and don't want to) sit in the few "problem" discussions all day and spend time deleting messages. The solution is for members to a) post in appropriate discussions for the conversation (the clue is in the discussion title), and b) refrain from any and all personal attacks.

dbauer

i understand trying to minimize the personal comments, and i appreciate that. but sometimes, as with other aspects of life, conversations must go on tangents to back up other points, and to reinforce one's POV.

if you could give us a little bit of leeway in this discussion, it would REALLY be appreciated.

thanks,
Dave

Kirstie_H

Sorry, not when we have a discussion that's dedicated to the conversation. I can always move posts if needed, but we are sticking solely to dealers' tricks in this forum. Not all of our members have been around so long, and therefore when they go to a specific discussion, they expect to see conversation related to the topic title.

Any further questions about policy should be handled by e-mail. Thanks!

ksccts

Yeesh!

isellhondas

I can't e-mail you because you have it marked private. Shoot me an e-mail and I'll fill you in.

steine13

"...doesn't really qualify as a dialogue, does it?"

Sometimes the hosts are a little quick on the draw, I agree...

But for examples of free and unfettered exchange of opinions, may I direct you towards the many fine discusons taking place on the usenet?

On the whole, I'll take Edmunds.

Ever at risk for being seen as sucking up to the hosts, I remain
-Mathias

dbauer

according to the powers-that-be, you are wrong...and always will be...or something to that effect.

;-)