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Dealer's Tricks - bait & switch, etc.
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But, if they agree to X plan, the price is the price....no negoitations neccessary, no extra bogus charges are allowed, correct?
I was looking at her "X" plan order form last night. It shows the vehicle order confirmation, the AZD plan price and then the X plan price (which the dealer highlighted as the price she will pay for the car). Handwritten on the bottom of the order form is my sister's signature and the notation of the amount of money she put down for them to order the car. Also, handwritten at the bottom is a notation that their "Value Guard" option is available for $995. I told her to just decline the "Value Guard" option when the car is delivered. The salesman gave her an ETA when the car will be delivered and mentioned that all their cars come with "Value Guard".
So, this is something that doesn't come from the factory. As I told her, when the dealership lets you know that the car is coming in, tell them you want no sort of etching or Value Guard put on it. Since they already agreed to X plan pricing, and ordered the car based on that, there should be no issue.
If they balk at the dismissal of those "extra charges", I told her to point to the terms of X plan that says no additional "conditioning charges" are allowed by Ford for X plan deals.
Am I on the right track with my advice?
From what I hear they are backed up for months at well over MSRP.
We've already seen some "screamer ads" for the Mustang V6 models around here. GT's are on the lots. Up until a couple of weeks ago, they've been in short supply, though.
The new "hot car" du jour has been the convertible Mustang around here.
Just a guess, but I believe the MSRP+ asking prices are probably limited to CA and the southern states. Don't know what the weather is like in WA, but we've just now had the last snowfall melt. And, there's always the possiblity that it will snow again....through the end of March. Plus, people around here are much more conservative about car buying than they are in the CA, FL car cultures. I could be wrong....who knows?
Only my personal opinion, but I think if a dealer agrees to X plan, and the X plan details are really adhered to, there should be no negotiation after the fact, regardless of how "hot" the car may be. The way I read them, the only thing the dealer can charge for in addition to X plan pricing are dealer installed options like wheels, ground effects, etc. If I'm reading the rules right, then anything that's considered additional "conditioning" (like wax, scotchgard, etc) is not allowed.
I suppose the dealer could walk away from my sister's X plan deal if she holds them strictly to the rules, but that would just be poor tactics on the dealer's side of the ledger. She said she'd go to dealer's owner, but I told her to walk away from the deal and get her deposit back ($1,000) if they insist on any back end "packing" of the deal and let it go at that.
Heck, from what I've read about how hot the 2005 Mustang GT is, $250 over X-Plan pricing is a super deal anyway.
thats why they offered it as "available".
quite frankly, if i were in the market for a mustang GT, i wouldnt care about a couple hundred bucks if they are honoring the x-plan.
$995...a little excessive...offer them $100 for it, and if they refuse, then its on them.
The dealer wants to make all the money they can. If they think your sister's deal doesn't make enough money for them, they should walk away, shouldn't they?
If the dealer doesn't want to honor x plan on the Mustang, I totally understand. But, they did say they would honor it.
To state that all of their cars come with etching or Value Guard to add to the deal is misleading since they don't come from the factory equipped as such....which is what the dealer is saying by all accounts.
To me, either you honor the deal and all of its terms, or you don't. By stating you honor X plan and then trying to force something like a back end "pack" (which is forbotten under X plan rules) on the buyer is shady in my opinion.
She's not too worried about the etching portion since it's only $250. $1,000 pack for waxing the car and scotchgarding the interior (which leather doesn't need), is a bit much for me (or her) to swallow.
To me, they either honor the deal (as my sister did by giving them a deposit and signing the X plan paperwork) or they don't. They should have told her upfront that all their cars come with an additional pack instead of trying to sneak it into the deal.
She's all hot and bothered by getting this car. I told her not to fold and to walk away if the sales person insists on the "pack". There are plenty of dealers out there and there will certainly be other Mustangs further down the road.
My bet would be that the dealership is willing to do the x plan deal, but the salesperson is not about to do a skinny deal on a hot car.
dbauer, I like your ideas......
BTW...extra "conditioning" products are against the rules, but not forbidden. there is a VERY fine line between the two.
VIN etch is not one of these products, since it is always done and registered as an aftermarket product.
our dealership will add bedliners to trucks, alarms to some cars, door keypads to some, etc...
these products are allowed under all plans. if a customer requests undercoating, rustproofing, etc., (which they do) we list them as aftermarket items, and not as equipment.
If I'm at the negotiation table, that means I'm serious about buying a car. I know pretty close what their car is worth, and if I have a trade, I've usually got a fair idea what it's worth. I won't take hours to negotiate. I'll make the offer. They either accept it, refuse it, or counter. If we're close (say within $100-$300), I usually offer to the split the difference. That normally buys a car. If we're $500 or more apart in our first volley, then I thank them for their time and move on.
If there's any change of the terms or agreement after we close the negotiations, I don't have any issue with walking (something I'm trying to instill into my sister with her Mustang purchase). But, rarely do the numbers, terms or the agreement change once we've struck a deal. It's happened, but not more than a couple of times.
For the most part, if all the terms (both their's and mine) are put on the table up front, there's usually no shenanigans.
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However, sometimes there are shenanigans. Rather than whine and get upset about it, we buyers should be prepared for it.
Danger! Danger!
(J/K, drift)** ...l.o.l...
When I go to the auctions I already have a "set" figure in my mind .. but, I'm not going to lose a nice car for $150/$200 ..... now, for $400/$500 I might have to do the See Ya shuffle ...............
Terry.
I'm basically a trusting person until somebody proves me wrong.
Relating that to car buying, because of you and the wealth of information here at Edmunds, it's fairly easy to find out what will do a "deal" and what won't.
Dealers know what they can and can't do to stay in business. I totally appreciate that, also.
Although it rarely happens, there have been times I've "walked" on a deal because there were some sort of change in terms or variables that weren't agreed upon up front. No harm, no foul but, if that happens, I won't be back to that dealership.
But, as you always say, ego sometimes will kill a deal. After sufficient research is done by me, if there's a huge delta in the price of the vehicle I want, or what I'm trading, compared to what my research tells me, then something's wrong.
All that said, I won't let a couple hundred bucks sway me from getting a car I want (or trading a car that I've already determined a value for).
As is always the case, if the nunbers somehow magically change after negotiations, then I'm always at liberty to walk away.
As they say, "it's business, not personal".
It saves the trouble of negotiating.
Now I might have missed a few of the points made here .. but "if" the agreed upon price is "XYZ" and everything is been signed and it's all done - and then they come back for another $100 or $300, then they need to eat it ... I've made a few mistakes, I quoted a agreed upon a figure and all was signed, then an hour later I find out I did $800 in tires, service and $200 in air conditioning work --- hey, my words, my mistake, so I ate it .. I can't blame the milkman .l.o.l..
Terry.
Salesman tells her after the terms were agreed to that all their cars come with "value guard" for $995. Ford X plan states that the dealers aren't allowed to charge for any sort or "extra conditioning" under X plan.
I told my sister that the deal is off based on the above facts and to get her deposit back. Of course, she reallllllyyyyy wants this car. So, she wants to report this salesperson to the dealership owner and to Ford for agreeing to abide by X plan rules but not adhering to their terms. I tell her there are other dealers around and there will be plenty of Mustangs to choose from.
That's how this whole scenario started.
I've only been in it rarely, but it feels as tight as new any time I've been in it. He uses it everyday to commute back and forth to college and for work. He racks up probably 2K miles a month and it runs like a fine clock. Now, if you can tell me how to get a teenager to keep the trunk and back seat clean and uncluttered, I'd be forever greatful.
IMHO, you can't get a better made car with as many features and the great warranty for the $10K (at the time it was bought) the Elantra costs. My son's came with a 5-speed, P/W, P/L, A/C, cruise, side airbags. It's just a tough car to beat. He probably averages 25-30 MPG, also.
Both my kids are now driving Saturn L-series (son bought a 2001 L200, while my daughter is currently driving my 2003 L300). Both cars look like mobile lockers, inside and out.
Now they are gonna seriously lowball my trade. How can I prevent, and if I cannot, how can I minimize the loss on the trade.
And, no I have no interest nor any intention to sell it myself.
Finally why such a disparity on KBB vs. NADA?
Oddly Kbb has the lowest trade but highest re-sale by dealer. NADA has higher trade and lower Re-sale. I have extensively researched my trade, it is worth far more than KBB, maybe as much as NADA, but they will come back with a price not less than 6k under value. I will walk (I have prices within $300 from about 5 dealers), but I want to get it done.
Thanks!
BTW, how do you know it is worth "far more" than KBB? Remember, a car is worth what someone will pay for it. NADA and KBB ain't gonna write you a check!
Based on what is needed to make the car saleable - as in presentable.
It is very clean, normal wear and tear only and really needs a vacuuming and simple wash - that't it.
Mechanically it is sound.
And I have taken averages of various KBBs, and NADAs and found my average number significantly higher than KBBs lowest number - but still MUCH lower than KBBs (or NADAs) re-sale by dealer number.
That is how I know.
It's common knowledge that a new car has more profit in it than a new car. I think KBB is closest to actual trade value, but Terry is still "KING" in that department.
By the time the dealership gets your car, makes it presentable to put it on the lot, offer some sort of warranty on it, carries the note for the amount of time it sits on their lot, pays the salesperson, turns on the lights and the HVAC, plus adds in a little for profit, I'd say you have your answer about the difference between what trade value is and what any car retails for.
You can do all the analysis paralysis you want, but no matter what all the books say, your car is worth what someone will pay for it, not what NADA says.
These books, while they're guides for approximate values, were originally designed as lenders guides so banks would have a general idea how much to loan you on a given vehicle.
NADA, KBB, and Gavles don't take into account that you have mismatched tires, or 30% brakes left, or a small crack in the windshield - all components that will have to be replaced by a dealer. These guides also don't take into account selling a convertible or 2WD truck in Michigan in the winter....or a black car in the middle of the summer down South.
And in fact some of what was said previous posts.
That is, the appraisal development comes from a large collection of data.
It is obvious to most who make it to boards like this, what the condition and other issues are. Such that figuring out certain key things can be easily done.
Seems to me, I am hearing excuses for why it will be silly low rather than whether or not it may actually be at or near what the books say.
For the record, my last 2 sells - THE DEALERS, one at Mitsu and one at Chevy GAVE ME THE CURRENT NADA and pointed to the price and asked is that figure ok? I said sure.
See, despite some of the points made, and they are indeed valid, it (used) is just as much a racket as anything else. I have heard from a couple ex dealers that some used are crazy profitable.
So, it all goes both ways.
And Terry, being MUCH older and a little wiser, has been in the car biz quite a bit longer.
Your trade is worth what it's worth and nothing more. If a dealer can go to the local auction and buy the same car for 6000.00 all day long, he won't be willing to give you the 8000.00 the "books" say it's worth.
On the other hand, if it's something very desirable that's in great shape, we will often pay even more than book value.
Is it a 1995 Taurus or a low mileage 1995 Accord EX? What exactly is it?
I smell a dealbreaker here.
I assumed (wrongly aparently) that making it look 'too good' would make alarm bells go off. If you are suggesting otherwise, not a problem at all.
Based on the definitions on KBB - it is easily better than good but not quite up to excellent.
I do understand the idea of market demands - and was not trying to suggest totally otherwise, but I also assume that KBB, EDMUNDS, NADA don't just dream up their figures either, that market, condition etc all are factors.
So I figure, if that is correct, why would there exist such significant differences amonng them?
Here is an example of why I feel the way I do. On our last buy - a Honda Accord we had a 97 GR Caravan to trade (I did not list this in earlier post as it was not traded).
We took it to carmax for an appraisal - they told us they'd buy it for $13k(ish).
We said thanks and that we'd think it over.
We got the Accord - this happpened in 2000. He says, after we do the accord deal, anything to trade? We said the van. He looked it over etc, etc, and offered $6k.
That is what I mean. Total BS. Less than 1/2 of what Carmax (about 10 miles away) offered. We laughed, showed him the offer from Carmax, said, we'll take $100 less than this to save time. He was really mad then, and told us we were stealing his accord so he lowballed our trade. He thought we were stupid aparently.
Needless to say it is events like that which sour the whole process.
Yes, we took it to carmax, and used the check as a downpayment on the accord. That dealership did not like us, as they wanted the 7K profit from stealing the van.
they dont ask for your VIN # or a series of pictures do they? this should send a red flag up when trying to decide if they are accurate or not.
as far as your experience at that dealership, i have a feeling that there is more to the story. noone in the car business asks AFTER the deal whether you have a trade...at least noone who makes it more than 2 hours...
A car is not worth what somebody is willing to pay for it. A car is worth what the market as whole is paying for similar cars. If I come to your lot and offer to buy a new Odyssey for 2K less then everybody else is willing to pay for, just because that what it is worth to ME, are you going to except that offer?
chuminthewater:
In the current market where dealers are giving away new cars, they have found a way to maximize their profits on used cars. Therefore, you are not going to get anywhere close to what you think it is worth by trading the car in.
My advice to you, take your car to Carnax and have them appraise it. Their number will be closer to reality than any book. Also, try to sell your car directly to dealer that sells same brand. Usually a Ford dealer will offer you a little more for a Ford than a Honda dealer will.
If you are in the Eastern part of the country, try to get your hands on the Black book (don’t forget to adjust for the mileage by using the table in front of the book). If you can get the average trade in value out a dealer, that is as good as it gets. The best way to get your hands on the Black book is to tell your salesman that you won’t buy the new car from them unless they let you see their Black book.
Good Luck
KBB as a scam - low or high? I assume low?
I will ask for the black book, depending on what they offer. I will also not waste a lot of their time with the trade as we all have only a limited amount of it.
Dbauer - the issue on trade was that we had done our buy via the internet, trade had simply not come up - in 2000, internet dealings were just heating up. Not like now. Then I was able to send a very direct and clear email to all the dealers locally - 1 message to all, and seek price/value etc comparisons. I had nothing to hide.
We got to the dealer, we drove the car we bought, and when we came back, he/we whatever, looked at trading the van.
It was really pretty simple and straightforward.
I will get the carmax appraisal as it will certainly be another option.
Regardless of what all the books say, your trade is worth whatever anyone is willing to pay for it (in this case, the dealer).
I certainly don't think Edmunds, KBB, NADA, black books are a scam. They are a guide. Their assessments are only that, assessments.
Who knows if your Honda dealer even wanted your Van. He may have had 20 of them on the lot that they were trying to move at the time. Go to a different dealer, and they have none. So, depending on market conditions in your area, your van may be worth something different by each of them.
As has been said many times, ego has killed more than a few deals.
Around here (southern OH), I find KBB to be pretty darn close. But, if a dealer wants to move the particular car you're buying, they may "bump" your trade price to get the deal done.
I'm sure the Honda dealer was happy to sell you a new car. Whether or not they wanted your trade is the real question. I've never seen a dealer get mad at any decision I ever made whether I offered my trade or not.
We look at our cars as valued personal possessions. The dealers view them as another piece of iron on the lot they need to move and make some money on. They have no emotion attached to something we've lived with for years. That's where the "ego" part gets in the way.
Trading in at the dealer you bought your Honda from would have saved you some in taxes, but I'm not certain that it will make up for the difference in what Carmax may or may not offer for the van.
We're all different and we're all trying to make "win-win" deals when buying and/or selling a car. IF you feel strongly about your van, then by all means, shop it around and see if you can do better than what all the "books" say.
...but they will come back with a price not less than 6k under value. Same question.
the it is worth far more - that was not meant as it reads or sounds. I think, KBB was low and that it may be worth something close to NADA - the 2 had price differences around 5k for trade in value - that is what I meant - gut feeling and additional research to substantiate that gut feeling.
the lowball of 6k below - that was based on a one time trade attempt on a minivan in 2000. I should not have put a $$ figure there.
Terry.
If you feel like you have a good handle on what your vehicle is worth (a Suburban right?), then figure out what the absolute minimum is that you will take for it. When you go to trade, stick with that minimum, and if the dealer can't come close to the amount that you are *sure* that it is worth, don't trade it to him. No one says that when you go to buy a car, you have to trade in the one you have. Clean it up, throw a for sale sign on it, and put it in some of your local auto publications. If you can't afford to buy the new one before you sell this one, then sell this one, and rent a car for $20 a day for the couple of days it takes you to buy the new one. Even by renting the car and paying for the ads, you should still net a lot more $ than just trading the car in. If for some reason you find out that even by trying to sell the car yourself you cannot achieve this figure you want (whatever it is you have valued your car at), then go sell it to Carmax as a last resort. You have to assume that the dealer is looking to buy your car for close to what that particular vehicle is going for at auction. Because after all, if they can't sell your car on their lot after a certain amount of time, they are going to most likely take it to auction anyway.
Talk about killing the conversation.. ;-)
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Just looking at the limited information you've given (02 Suburban LS with 52K miles) and doing a quick look up for value in my area....
KBB trade value is $16,000
NADA trade value is $19,600
While I personally find KBB is more accurate, you might want to split the difference and see if anyone bites at $17,500.
For another data point, ebay has some over there....
Not exactly like yours, as they are Z1s with leather and loaded up, but there's an '02 with a "buy it now" price of $18.5 and an '01 buy it now for $15.5 Looking at those, the KBB price looks more realistic since yours isn't as loaded up as those.
I could be way off, though. I don't know the popularity of these vehicles in the area. It may be a tough sale with the state of gas prices the way they are.
As said, Rear World Trade in Value thread will get you close to what you can expect on a straight sale.
But when replies like this come in...
Re: Clarifiactions on my own comments [rroyce10] by dbauer Feb 17, 2005 (12:03 pm)
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he is probably afraid to know the actual truth, terry. because if he knows, then he cant blame the dealers anymore.
You get a good idea why dealers are considered lower than normal enemies.
What the heck is that supposed to mean?
I did the KBB, I did the NADA, I did several other things too.
Jeez, you all think I can't do that?
KBB (ave between good and excellent): 18,200
NADA: 22
And, for what it's worth, I would gladly split the diff. In fact I am seeking about 20,300 right close to splitting the diff.
And considerably less than what they turn and sell it for - according to the same sources by between 5300 and 7K.