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Dealer's Tricks - bait & switch, etc.
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We don't know if you will take $500 off your sale price or not. The only way we can find out is to ask. >>
I would do a bit more than simply ask. And start walking out the door just to see if they would really come down at all. Now I wouldn't go as far as demanding as dbauer mentioned, but you are right, we as buyers really don't know if the dealer would come down again.
Hopefully, I've done my research first and would know if the advertised price is in the ball park first. But then again, there could have been a new manuf. to dealer incentive we don't know about.
All we can do as buyers is to do our homework and keep insisting (professionally of course) for the best price. And remember, if the dealer lets you walk out the door, chances are you were off on your price.
always remember, you get what you pay for! you go in and you negotiate a deal so unbeneficial for the dealer, you wont get very good service from them down the road - they wont want to lose anymore money to you. say goodbye to any free oil changes, loaner cars, etc. its just the way it is.
just some thoughts - believe me, i just as much want a great deal as all of you - i buy things too! heck i negotiated a deal at best buy (where apparently they dont negotiate) but realize our markup on a vehicle is 10% while at best buy, or tweeter, they can mark their tvs up almost 100%.
happy motoring!
thene
Case in point, I'm helping my sister buy a car. She wants a "hot" model. I told her that MSRP may be as good as she can do, but we can try to shop and negotiate.
What we found was staggering. Dealers charging for "options" that have little to no value....and charging stupid money for them.
Don't get me wrong. If a dealer tells me the price they'll sell the car for is over MSRP, I have every right to walk. But, trying to justify a higher price with supposedly worthless fees and options insults my inteligence.
About 2 years ago, my son bought an economy car with "bank of Dad" help. He found what he could afford and pretty much negotiated a good deal on his own (not bad for a 17 year old). Of course, they needed me there for paperwork, even though it was my son's money.
Getting the paperwork done, I noticed a "fee" for the dealer to transfer their car from another one of their same brand stores less than 10 miles away.
The fee was $750. We walked out on the deal while sitting in the F&I office. Sales person chased us to the parking lot promising to drop the fee, but the damage was done.
So, sometimes the dealer ambushes a sure sale with some of the tactics they use, too.
The fee was $750.
Sometimes the dealers wonder how they get a reputation??? Too bad the halo effect paints the honest (more honest) dealers>>>
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
The person above in the note walked and didn't look back at the transfer fee. Great. Dealer lost a sale.
I buy at a family-owned (three brothers, dad started business) in a small town. They appreciate the repair and warranty business. They're pretty straightforward to deal with. The service manager has save me $1000s by telling me how to repair what's wrong or not to bother with repair until it 'breaks.' I don't mind when I take something to them and I know it costs more than a regular repair shop to replace a front wheel bearing, e.g. They help me with knowledge when I can do it myself.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
-thene
Poor dealership businesses, just struggling so hard to survive in this cruel world. Lots of sympathy for you... sniff.
Sheesh.
But, by bringing up this "fee" after the deal was already struck left a bad taste in my mouth.
To expound on the purchase my son tried to make, there was some banter about it when we were sitting in the F&I office. When I questioned the F&I gut about the fee, he said they had to do exactly what you said....send someone to pick up the car my son wanted (only difference was color). I told them we would go to the dealership ourselves to pick it up, no problem. The two dealerships are owned by the same guy, yet the F&I said the fee was "standard"....whether they had to go across town or across the state for transfered cars. How ridiculous is that?
Sales person did call a couple of times and appologized, but my trust in the entire dealership had been breached.
Again, they took a sure deal and skuttled it by that type of behavior.
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i want to see you work for free, or for little or no profit at all. do people haggle you all day long and ask how much you make? or tell you what you SHOULD be entitled to make? maybe you should spend a couple of months on the other side of the desk. people have such a stereotype on salespeople and dealerships that its like talking to a brick wall trying to explain the other side of things. and then when someone tries to tell you what things are like on this end, some people get defensive. "sniff".
i have sympathy for you if this is how you treat everyone you meet.
graphicguy,
telling you about the fee AFTER making the deal is not fair at all. when you ask for an OTD (out the door) price, all their fees should be included - anything after the fact you should fight, or better yet, walk out that door. no need to reward the sketchy dealerships by just giving in. sounds like you know what you are doing though, hats off to you!
-thene
That's funny. I lived close to Wyler Chev when it was the only place he had. I drove up in my 18 year old Chev for a replacement part. You should have seen the salespeople attack at the door. They were disappointed when I asked for the parts department and complained that it runs so good I couldn't trade it. (It was my 3rd car at the time.)
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
people have such a stereotype on salespeople and dealerships that its like talking to a brick wall trying to explain the other side of things.
You all created this monster, and the many years of insanely unfair practices brought to where we are today.
And, every time buyers find a new way to balance things dealers find another way to make it appear (real or not) that they are fleecing the buyer.
For example, does all that overhead cost more in VA than in MD?
No? Maybe? Then why is MD only allowed to charge $100 while in VA it's $289?
I mean it is just more padding. And, I'd bet if I wanted to play hardball, I could say, nope, kill that fee or I walk, and they'd say no can do, it's on the form, and I'd say then reduce the cost of the car by that amount, and they'd hem an haw and in the end, if I get up to leave they'd offer something.
So, it's things like this that cause the friction - and your reply does not improve it, but rather make it worse.
And by the way, I have done what I said, and some will move on that price too.
So it DOES seem to be more padding.
Like wheel locks, pin stripes, mud guards.
It just keeps on going.
BMW charges extra for floormats (as does Toyota)wo why are you knocking Hyundais???
For example, you said, " i know if you give us a fair deal - we'll more than make up for it in our service to you!"
From my experience, that is not true. When I was buying a 1985 Honda, I asked the sales person for a price and I paid it. No negotiation at all.
However, in the next few years, the service dept at that dealer did not treat me well at all.
From this experience, I learned to not expect good service just because I paid top dollar for a car. Therefore, when I now buy a car, all I look for is a low price.
You see, most of us tough customers were not born this way. We are this way because of our experience. You have to accept us as we are and find a way to enjoy your job or change to a different field of work.
Have you considered computer programming in Fortran? It's fantastic!!
i had the same ideas you did before i got into this business - but being on this side has made me realize that the customers are just as much at fault for making the whole process of buying a car unpleasant - just as some salespeople and dealers have. im not saying there isnt any fault on our end, but there is fault on the consumer end as well.
im here to just shed light on the other half of this whole transaction thing. i dont blame just consumers, but its unfair for just dealerships/salespeople to be blamed either.
you would think on a purchase of so much money that the profit margin should be reasonable. however, with everyone knowing our invoice, and now holdback, and availability of dealer cash, we have to find other ways to make money. its about survival. if you went to best buy, and told them you wanted to buy their tv at their cost, they would try to make money elsewhere -whether it be on warranties, special programs, add ons, other "essential" items that you need with your tv...believe me i know - i got the shpeel when i bought my tv. they tried to sell me everything under the sun just so i could get their advertised sale price. its not just dealerships, its everyone.
The comment that you made that I quoted, shows this. Whether or not you actually caused this is irrelevant. The fact is it still exists today. The very idea that you use the words blame and customer in the same sentence continues to show that you too have been brain washed into trying to squeeze every penny from every potential customer as an adversary.
My family has been in retailing in the US for close to 100 years (actually for well over 100 years). And not once has the customer been wrong nor 'to blame.'
More "you would think on a purchase of so much money that the profit margin should be reasonable. however, with everyone knowing our invoice, and now holdback, and availability of dealer cash, we have to find other ways to make money."
NO YOU DON'T YOU NEED TO BE HONEST AND ASK A FAIR PRICE AND NOT HIDE THIS FEE AND THAT FEE, ETC ETC.
We know what we know because other services found a new way to help even the playing field.
Dealers have hated that from day one. And they hate just as much today.
Ask a fair price, and you'd be amazed how well companies would do in your chosen field - but (always a but), your field has elected to NOT EVOLVE as a mass. When they/you do, the whole pricing structure, and salaries of salespeople will change too.
Not so 38 years ago when Cadillac still had the finest carpets but only rubber floormats - but then again most other makes didn't even have any floormats at all back then.
Being a "Certified Cadillac Junkie", I usually buy the custom Lloyds floor mats with the huge 6 color embroidered Cadillac crest logo on them. Then I keep the originals in the attic for trade in time. :-)
Do you really believe that? How so? Amazing!!!
I can also replace the carpeting in any car for $99 through ACC (Anniston, AL) - used to be a mom and pop shop, now huge and making carpeting for anything that moves.
i dont know about other dealers, but ours is specifically set aside for mortgage and taxes.
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2015 Kia Soul, 2021 Subaru Forester (kirstie_h), 2024 GMC Sierra 1500 (mr. kirstie_h)
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I guess I am the kind of person who breaks things down to simplicity.
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$99 is less than what one set of mats cost me last year, that's a good price.
Well, if I understand that at all, you are actually buying about 5 for what you pay to get 1. As there are (or used to be) a ton of failed models for each that makes the showroom for sale.
When they perfect the design and can in turn move more resources to manufacturing, the prices will plummet - at least that is what I have been told.
Too bad.. they always advertise the lowest prices...
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that being said, i'll be glad to answer any questions on dealer tricks that i can.
i am actually a woman. i really like cars - and i find it rewarding when i can help someone get into something they've just dreamed about. maybe im naive in thinking that people will change their minds about salespeople if i work hard to make a difference. i like my line of work - its just tough sometimes when people come in and act rude to protect themselves.
and again, I have been on the other side of the desk as a consumer. let me put it this way however - if people who were unhappy selling cars all got out of the business - there would be no salespeople left! (almost all of us have grips and complaints about the job).
anyways, i leave the computer programming to my husband, thats his job!
tough customers were not born that way just as salespeople werent born the way we were. im not justifying every action or previous action taken by salespeople - i just wish that people would come in and see me and not judge me as another criminal just looking to take all their money and run...
just venting - sorry - i try to do right by people, i really do.
Once you get the car for the price they advertise, they try to make it up on the back end of the deal.
I remember when Wyler started out with just the Chevy store out in the boonies ("cars, like eggs, are cheaper in the country" was their tag line).
Now, he's a "mega dealer". Short of Benz or Jag, I think he has a store that represents every major brand.
We tried only once to make a purchase. We won't be back for a 2nd shot.
He actually married my sister's best friend. But, that's a whole other story.
As was said before, some of us "grizzled" car buying veterans can be a bit crusty when we talk about the car biz. Pay no attention to us.
It's just that we've seen some pretty crazy things happen when trying to purchase a car.
I'll take a straight up sales person at a straight up dealer over the most rock bottom price any day of the week.
And, you're right. The car buying public has a lot more information at our disposal than we did 10, even 5 years ago. It's probably the only industry where I've got a pretty good idea of what the dealer paid for the product and what $$ amount it will take to buy that product.
That's good for the consumer. It's not so good for the dealer. But, good service and fair price trumps great price and tricky tactics in my book every day of the week.
people have such a stereotype on salespeople and dealerships that its like talking to a brick wall trying to explain the other side of things. and then when someone tries to tell you what things are like on this end, some people get defensive. "sniff".
and a few posts before it,
always remember, you get what you pay for! you go in and you negotiate a deal so unbeneficial for the dealer, you wont get very good service from them down the road - they wont want to lose anymore money to you. say goodbye to any free oil changes, loaner cars, etc. its just the way it is.
The latter essentially says your dealership will punish the customer who did not pay "enough", in their opinion, with substandard service. And you want me to have any respect for you as a professional? (not generalizing, of course, to the whole profession, of which many fine examples are on this boards.)
Exactly! We should all heed these words of wisdom.
I've purchased 3 new cars in the past 3 years - one each November of 2002, 2003 and 2004. Two Saturns and a Ford. The dealers we bought from were up front and honest with prices .. no games, no F&I trickery. Did we get the absolute best deal? Maybe, maybe not. But, the way we were treated more than compensated for that.
I would have zero concern about recommending these dealers to anyone who asked.
Ironically, when we purchased the Ford, we went to a dealer owned by the same group as the Saturn dealer .. in fact, the two dealerships are next door to one another in an auto park. The tactics they tried to use on us were simply shameful, so we left and found a dealer who had what we wanted, at a price we were comfortable with, without the hassle.
Always remember ... it's your money.
I LOVE the car business, but I agree with asafonov on a few points.
There is overcapacity in auto production; approximately 25-30% worldwide. And there are way too many car dealers. All this generates tremendous pressure to move cars and take very skinny deals. Great for the buying public, not so great for the car dealers. Of course, like everywhere, the top dealers make money hand over fist, and they do it the old-fashioned way: By being smarter than the competition.
But these are all facts of life and have nothing to do with sitting down with a customer to hammer out a deal. When that is done, and the car is sold, it's done. If it wasn't enough money, WHY DID YOU SELL THE CAR??? That's stupid.
That person should be an ambassador for your dealership. He'll tell his friends how he was treated. If your lucky, he'll call you with car questions that he can't answer otherwise, and when someone he knows needs a car, he'll think of you automatically. The pros around here will tell you that repeats and referrals are where it's at.
-Mathias
That's nice, but we've been over that pretty good since '99 or so...
-Mathias
sheesh
good luck to all of you - i am out of here.
Showing my age here, but I do remember when I first got my license, it was right in the middle of the gas lines forming, gas stations only offering gas on alternating basis based on license plate numbers, etc.
At that time, my first car I bought from a private owner and was a beater, in every sense of the word.
That's when people were looking for economy. Dealers were charging "stupid" money for diesel Rabbits, Toyotas and Hondas....usually with an addendum sticker filled with questionable "dealer installed options". Of course, the buyers paid those charges, whether legitimate or not.
Unfortunately, some of that type of dealing still exists today. I saw it when the New Beetle first arrived and again when the P.T. Cruiser first came out. When I bought my RX8, I saw people paying stupid money for those (now they are rebating the heck out of them)...same thing when the first new GTOs hit the market (and again, were rebated to death later).
Now, it's the new Mustang. As unbelievable as it is, I've seen dealers on ebay set up bidding on Mustangs (mostly convertibles) on how much "over" MSRP someone will pay to buy a car.
To me, that is short sighted on both the dealer's part and the consumer's part.
On the dealer's end, if you've got a hot commodity, tell the customer up front that the price is MSRP. Forget the paint protection schemes (that are worth maybe $50, but charging $1,000 for it). Forget trying to pad profits by back ending deals with bogus/nebulous fees, etc. If a deal is too skinny up front, the dealer can decline the deal as easily as the customer can walk. All you're doing is irritating your customer base and you WON'T get referal business from them because they feel cheated.
On the customer end, you can walk at any time. Nobody is holding a gun to your head to buy that car. If you want/need to haggle for the last $50, remember that life is too short. Ask yourself if it's really worth the effort. If a car is worth $20,000 to you, it's certainly worth $20,050 to you, right? If that $50 is so important, ask the dealer to throw in a free oil change.
It doesn't have to be "us" against "them".
It's the "sneaky" charges that really turn the car buying experience into a circus.
One last thing, don't get insulted if someone doesn't think your trade is worth what you do. I know we all live with cars for years and they become personal possessions. But, if a dealer can't make money on it, they ain't buying it at the inflated price we thing it's worth. It ain't personal, it's business.
Graphic guy:
Could the above paraphrase of your post work also for the dealer side?
Dealers usually cheat the customer more on the used car value than on the new car profit. The best (most effective, not necessarily the best to work with or the most honest) salesmen are in used cars because that's where the biggest money is?
Right?
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
come on! i know you are a militant anti-dealer guy, but lay off the nasty stuff.
and when i ask for an extra $100/$200 on a deal, im doing my job. if they say no, then i do the deal anyway...most of the time. but i usually dont try to bump only $100 unless i know i have a deal to begin with.
For example, when we bought our last car, we offered $20500 OTD. They countered with $20,700. After a 5 minute discussion, we walked out the door, and the sales manager followed us into the parking lot to tell us they accepted our price.
So the extra 5 minutes saved us $200, which I think was worth it. At an hourly rate, that comes to about $2,400,000 per year, which is not bad, even by my standards.