Most of the bumper to bumper warranties are indeed 3 years or 36000 miles but powertrain on most of the GM's is also only 3 years/36000miles where as most of the other manufacturers offer 5 year/60000mile powertrain warranty.
Out of curiosity I checked Road and Track Buyer's Guide and it shows Honda having only 3 year/36000 mile powertrain warranty in the US, is this right?
In Canada we have 5 year/60000mile (5 year/100000km) powertrain warranty. I wonder why the difference.
but some will take my number for the sole purpose of bringing it to their local dealer to have them beat.
When I start shopping the Internet I have already eliminated the local dealers. I just had a great Internet buying experience. I emailed several Portland area VW dealers looking for the best deal on a Passat TDI. Only one responded and very promptly. We went back and forth on different vehicles. He gave me an out the door cash price that was below even what I thought possible. We flew up the next week from San Diego to Portland. The Internet salesman from Armstrong VW picked us up in the new car. Gave me a chance to drive back to the dealership. He went over the vehicle with us. The Finance guy asked if we wanted the extended warranty and I said no. Gave him the cashiers check and headed back to San Diego. They gave us a 3 MONTH temporary tag. When I flew back to Alaska the next week I took the MCO into the DMV and got my plates. Very simple and no hassles. We love the car. Had one small issue with the down volume on the steering wheel. Took it into Drew VW here in San Diego. They gave us a loaner car as they had to get a new steering wheel. That was great service also. All done on the phone and mostly by email. I like the record of an email. I refuse to sit and haggle with a salesman and his manager. My time is too valuable. I tell them what I will pay under invoice and they have two options take or leave it. I prefer using the Internet as I can sit here and gaze out across the valley while I am shopping. I buy almost everything via the Internet now. Saves a lot of gas and hassles.
my mazda has 48 months/50K miles - bumper to bumper.
Course I understand GM's angle - they'd been out of business a few years back if they had to back up their "lemon fleet" any longer than, honestly, less than 2 years with the miles most folks drive.
now ive heard of people going all over for a used car, but new? there must be enough VW dealers around you to make a good deal without having the expense of flying to pick up your car right? i guess to each their own - and you do get to take a really nice long trip with your new car on the way home!
No VW TDIs sold in CA. I shopped AZ, NV, ID, WA & OR. AZ charges tax even if your state does not. NV & WA were not moving off MSRP on TDIs and Idaho had very little selection.
we don't all live in a huge metropolis where there are literally dozens of dealers to pick from. I live in WV and there is a grand total of 4 FOUR Mitsubishi dealers in the state of WV. I went to SC to buy my eclipse used - I found 2 used in the entire state (I'm sure there were others, but I'm talking ones that could be found on internet searches....). The only one that interested me had 9K miles and was priced at $26K. If I could have afforded that amount at that time, I would have bit the bullet and bought a brand new one for $30K.
Same with the current Mazda. I'm not sure of the exact number of dealerships in the state, but I can guarantee there are no more than 4 or 5. The only dealerships we have locally (right here in Summersville) are GM, Pontiac, Buick, Chevrolet, Chrysler, Dodge, and Jeep - all owned by the same guy. Nearest Ford, nissan, subaru, hyundai, cadillac is an hour away. Nearest honda, vw, mazda, is 2 hours..............
In some cases, what does it matter if you make a one-time trip out of town to buy the car you want at the price you can pay? Rural areas are a different ball game and we all know what competition does for pricing!!
this is true! im in the northeast, and it seems as though there is a nissan dealer every other block sometimes :P - anyways, i understand now why you went up to WA for a car - sorry for questioning! i was just curious :-)
Yeesh! That brings back a few memories. Back when I lived in New Jersey, my wife and I used to make an annual pilgrimage to your area during Gauley season. On our last trip I managed to get my right hand tagged by a copperhead snake in the area of Sweet's Falls. Succumbing to the pressures of the tour guide, I had to take a trip to the Summersville Hospital only to be told, "You're young enough and healthy enough. Take two aspirin and call us if you get worse."
The next day I had to combine forces with my wife, who managed to bruise a few ribs near Pillow Rock, to be able to start our drive home. I got the steering wheel and the gas, brake and clutch pedals, she got the stick shift, the climate controls and the audio system.
That kind of felt like "Bait & Switch", you know, "Go to the hospital and get some anti-venom", followed by, "Nope, go back to your camp site and take some aspirin."
service managers usually worry about their own customers first regarding service appointments, and if you have a plate frame from another dealer, you wait until there is a spot thats open.
This is not true as far as my experience goes. I bought from the store closest to home and take it for servicing to the store near work. I always get top-notch service. But, something funny happened after the 3rd visit...I found I had a different plate frame after that visit! Also, I take our Lexus to the local Toyota dealer for service since the price differs by almost a factor of 3 (30K service $900 at Lexus, $285 at Toyota). Again I am treated fairly.
Now warranty repairs may be another issue. But, since I buy Toyotas/Lexuses only, that is a moot point.
not saying its all dealers, but you may or may not run into that situation. i always think its best that if you are going to buy a car, you buy it from the dealer you plan on servicing at (and that you have a great relationship with). will everyone do it? no, but i think its the best way to go IMHO.
I've been on 2 Mitsubishi lots since the new Eclipse hit the market and both had bump stickers on their inventory. That really burns my butt!! The sticker price builds in the profit for the dealer, the bump sticker is just the GREED INDICATOR. I asked one salesman "If the Eclipse is so hot and so wanted by the public that you can justifiy more than MSRP, why do you even have any left?"
I can understand bumping the price in a trully exclusive car that is limited in production (I still don't like it), but, come on, you'd think these dealers would be worried about their investments as being Mitsu dealers (the company is not exactly topping the Fortune 500 at the moment) and would be working to promote the car and the company for some type of small success for all of them!! LOSERS!!
I'm not interested in the coupe, but plan to buy the convertible when it comes out next year, but no matter how bad I want one, I will not buy from a dealer that's bumping the prices. As one guy in the Mitsu forum said, if they're greedy enough to bump stickers, they probably pad your repair bill whenever possible too!!
about me. I love to go out and donate extra money on a car purchase to the salesman, the dealer and the manufacturer overall. I WANT TO PAY AS MUCH AS LEGALLY ALLOWED ON A VEHICLE AND I WANT MY PAYMENT TO BE AS LARGE AS I CAN POSSIBLY MANAGE TO PAY EACH MONTH.
Nothing personal here, but that rates right up there in the "3 Stupidest Questions of the Day!"
What would everyone think if we went to Wal-Mart and all the toilet paper had an additional $1.50 on it just to increase Wal-Mart's profits? There's no tp shortage, Wal-Mart just really wanted to make some extra profit.
I've been following this one for a little while and gotta ask - Why does it matter what the sticker on the window says? If you have done your homework, make an educated offer based on research from the internet. You already know what a fair price should be. If they don't want to sell it to you for that price, you can either try another dealer, offer a little more money, or purchase a different vehicle.
if people will pay it, then its what the market is commanding - thats how you rationalize second stickers. on a popular car, that has limited production (or is flying off the lots so fast it makes your head spin) its common for the dealer to mark up the price because people will pay it. business is the process of making money. if your house was worth $300,000, and you had 50 people interested in it, would you sell it for $300,000 because thats the value, or would you take the highest bidder? i am not saying its the same as that, but its kind of a similiar thought process.
now on the eclipse, i see a second sticker as being silly - its not a special car, but, if a dealer can get that price, there is nothing wrong or illegal in that - and you don't have to buy it at that price. no one is forcing you!
anyways, i just wanted to point out the other side...people forget that its a business sometimes, and think dealers should just hand everything away because they were so skeevy in years past. kind of like retribution or something...
and I honestly feel I haven't made a fool of myself. Of course WE ALL want something as cheap as we can get it, but I'm a reasonable person and I know that with the Eclipse just hitting the market in the last couple of weeks, no dealer is going to accept $3000 below MSRP or any other lowball number. But, I think it's also reasonable when you're a Mitsubishi dealer who is likely to have to dig a hole and bury your Mitsubishi signs and other paraphanelia in the next couple of years, these dealers are not being very smart. There is no limited production on the car, the dealerships I have visited do have available inventory and I saw no line of buyers fighting to get one, plus they say they're not really making people pay the extra amount. So what's the point? Oh, the point is, there are idiots out there who will pay it, but they also succeed in driving other potential customers away!!
Honestly, bump stickers on everyday cars are just not smart. The folks who do get wrapped up in owning "one of the first ones available" realize that it's depreciating just as fast as the ones that people paid MSRP or less, and then they're mad at the dealer, the maufacturer and the car. How does that benefit anyone in the long run?
thene is right - no one is forcing me to buy at that price or any other. But it just really gives me a negative attitude toward these dealers (and thene and isell are always telling us to reward the honest, do-good dealers and not the sleazebags) and I won't go back there when I am ready to buy one. Win some, lose some!!
Why is that stupid? MSRP is an arbitrary number that the manufacturer picks as what they thiink a car should sell for (or more accurately, what it should be listed for). SUpply and demand determines what the actual selling price is going to be.
I think the point of that post was, if you think it is evil/immoral for a dealer to ask for more than MSRP, why isn't it just as bad for a buyer to offer to pay less? Either MSRP is sacred, or it's not, but you can't have it both ways.
The business case for not adding an Adm sticker is different (that is, it might be better customer relations to not do it). But, buyers today are quite savvy at demanding deals cut to the bone, so who can blame dealers for trying to make a few $$ when they can?
If you don't like the asking price, offer less,or walk.
"if they're greedy enough to bump stickers, they probably pad your repair bill whenever possible too!!"
Car dealers want us to trust them. However, when they put a bump sticker on a new car it looks like they just want to get all of the money they can out of our pocket.
When they treat customers like that, the customer becomes very suspicious when they recommend service like a tranny flush at 15K miles.
A dealer who puts bump stickers on new cars ahould not whine when their customers go somewhere else for non-warranty service.
Isell meant that the dealer is putting a bump sticker on the car not because they really expect someone to pay it but because they will need to show an overallowance to get the bank to finance someone with a lot of negative equity in their current ride. For example, if the MSRP is $25K, you can really get it for $22K, there's a bump sticker of $2K, and the customer is upside down on their trade-in to the tune of $5K:
Sale price $22K - bank won't finance customer for $27K that they need ($22K + $5K from previous car)
Sale price $27K ($25K MSRP + bump) - bank will finance.
Just a game. If you're not upside-down, the dealer isn't really expecting you to pay the premium.
be about "customer relations?" And, I don't think it's necessarily evil or immoral, I do think it's a bad business practice and bad for customer relations, so on that I guess we agree.
As I said, we're also talking about a company that is barely treading water here (does that not factor in at all?), they can hardly give cars away, and I honestly don't think that the Eclipse is so hot that it's going to go in the other direction for them. Let's put this into perspective for the situation at hand.
Business in the US has changed with the advent of all these informed shoppers. Period. It's now too easy to access invoices on cars, find out what a dealer has in a vehicle and you offer less. I'm in the antiques business and I have to haggle with people everyday to make my living. Some items I can discount more than others (or I have to discount them more to sell them). The one thing I can't get away with is hanging another tag on my items and expecting them to pay a little more than my original price. Wouldn't even try it because I would have customers walk out the door and never return - I can't afford that!!
Mitsubishi isn't selling you the car. They sell it to the dealer, that sells it to you. THe dealer is more concerned with how much money they make than what mitsu makes.
once mitsubishi (or any manufacturer for that matter) sells a car to a dealer, they dont care what you sell it for. they've got their profit, and they are done with it. its up to the dealer to sell it for what they can to keep their doors open. selling a few over sticker helps compensate for the rest of the times (and majority!) when we're handing cars away.
like i said before - if someone is willing to pay the price, then they will keep selling it there til noone does. like my example before - you have one house and 50 potential customers, and all are willing to pay $375,000 for a house worth $275,000 - who are you to say no to that money, right? sure, it could leave a sour taste in someones mouth, but thats up to each individual dealer to decide.
lhess, i would be curious, what kind of markup do you have on your antiques (see, i remembered! :-) ) - i was looking at an Xterra today, and the difference between invoice and MSRP isnt even close to 10%! TV's have a markup of nearly 100% - just some things to think about :-)
honestly, i dont know how dealer invoices were made available to the general public (i thought i heard once the manufacturers sold the info), but we're the only retail industry that has our costs know to the public. other dealers dont help (the cutthroat ones) that sell cars for literally nothing, in order to hit volume - because it really kills the smaller dealers like ourselves. only because people want the best price, and figure they'll just service elsewhere...
for a small dealer like we are, we get killed by other volume dealers, and by consumers who expect us to match every loser deal they got from the volume dealer. it really can be a tough business
You say, "dealers dont help (the cutthroat ones) that sell cars for literally nothing"
Well, they sure help us car buyers!
Buying cars these days is so much nicer than it used to be. In the 60's, no one knew anything about an invoice price. If you saw a new car at an American car dealer, it had a base price and then a whole list of options. No two cars would have the exact same options, so it was very difficult to compare prices.
Sounds like Misti dealers are doing with the Eclipse what Honda dealers started with the Ridgeline when it came out. They thought it would be the latest HOT Honda vehicle, added all kinds of markup stickers, but in all reality (IMHO), the Ridgeline is way over priced compared to other trucks. The last I heard over in "prices paid" is that they're coming down close to invoice. If the Eclipse is what you say it is, just wait a few months.
Bump stickers really isn't a "trick", just the dealers trying to make as much as possible. Oh, and you can forget about most dealers trying build "customer relations".
Several questions from an older guy who has never bought from a dealer before:
I'm looking for the best possible price on either a 2002 Honda Accord or Toyota Camry with about 40000 miles or lower. I get the sense that it wouldn't be a bad idea to pick up a (non-smoker's) lease car from some dealer. There seems to be a lot of Accords around from dealers, mostly asking around $14000 (Looking at Autotrader.com).
1. Is it possible to deal with a fleet manager rather than a retail dealer to get a better price? I read that in a newspaper article recently. True?
2. Is there any way to purchase closer to the Private party orTrade-in price rather than the retail price form KBB or Edmunds?
3. Are "no-dicker sticker" outfits like Carmax or Enterprise Rental Sales truly no negotiation, or not? (Enterprise seems about$1000 to 1500 above some dealers.)
4. Are the retail prices from dealers that you see in Autotrader, say for Accords or Camrys a starting point for negotiation from which a retail buyer from which I'd be trying to work towards the Edmunds or KBB trade-in value? I'm thinking it would be nice if I could go in to one of these dealerships and say: "I want to buy with cash today and I want to pay no more than $500 over trade-in value. If you can agree to that and not add any additional processing charges, I can be in and out of here in 20 minutes after a satisfactory brief test drive."
I'm looking for the best possible price on either a 2002 Honda Accord or Toyota Camry with about 40000 miles or lower. [..] There seems to be a lot of Accords around from dealers, mostly asking around $14000 (Looking at Autotrader.com).
Check into the new ones first. An Accord LX/Camry LE can be bought new for $18, give or take $800 or so. So you have a full warranty while you're making payments. This has been discussed here often, and while not everyone agrees with this conclusion, it's at least debatable. As opposed to a Ford Taurus, which everyone agrees should be bought used because the depreciation is so severe.
Looking for the "best possible price" will likely get you a rat of a car. Plenty of those out there, but the nice ones for $1k more are usually worth it. I know a car dealer who stopped buying off-lease, 3-year-old Hondas because he can't make more than $500 on them. They are THAT expensive at the auction.
Looking for a CamCord? Buy new. Looking for a deal on an 02? Buy a Taurus with the Duratec engine. Spend another $1k and buy an Impala with the 3800 V6.
1. Is it possible to deal with a fleet manager rather than a retail dealer to get a better price? I read that in a newspaper article recently. True?
No. Many journalists know nothing about the things they write about. The "fleet manager" is usually just another salesman. When he only deals with fleet sales, he won't deal with you, and he only does new cars. In bundles of 5 and up :-)
3. Are "no-dicker sticker" outfits like Carmax or Enterprise Rental Sales truly no negotiation, or not? (Enterprise seems about$1000 to 1500 above some dealers.)
I believe they truly are no-haggle. Carmax is great for trading your car in, not so great for buying. Prices are high. Real men negotiate. :shades:
4. Are the retail prices from dealers that you see in Autotrader, say for Accords or Camrys a starting point for negotiation from which a retail buyer from which I'd be trying to work towards the Edmunds or KBB trade-in value? I'm thinking it would be nice if I could go in to one of these dealerships and say: "I want to buy with cash today and I want to pay no more than $500 over trade-in value. If you can agree to that and not add any additional processing charges, I can be in and out of here in 20 minutes after a satisfactory brief test drive."
Don't do it. You'll end up with a lousy car for the target price. There is no set value for used cars. Find something you like, then come back to Edmunds and ask over at Real-World Trade-in Value what it might be worth. Much better that way. Read around on the forums that deal with used cars, and you'll get a real education on this. I sure did.
when we get a jerk of a salesperson that thinks they are selling something no one else has, we can walk. And the really good part to that is, there of plenty of cars out there and probably several thousand that will suit our wants or needs. You are always spouting stuff about how you are an honest dealer that is nice to work with and you really try to make customers happy. Well, that last post certainly doesn't indicate that to me.
I'm not in the market for an eclipse at the moment, but when I am, I won't buy from the sleazebag dealers that bump them, regardless of the reasons for bumping them. I'm not an unreasonable shopper either. I have never walked onto a lot and demanded to pay a ridiculously low price on a new model - if I wanted a new eclipse right now, I would reasonably expect to pay sticker for it - and I can walk away NICELY from any deal I'm not interested in. Period!
I won't buy from a dealer with bump stickers either, but that's my personal choice. I won't buy a depreciating item like a car over MSRP just on principles. A bump sticker can tell something about the car and popular demand, or about the dealership, but not about the sales staff.
I think you are missing what isell was saying. I saw nothing in his post to suggest he is other than a decent and honest salesperson, which I believe he is. He was trying to answer your question about why dealers use bump stickers. If you're tarring all auto salespeople with the same brush you're in the wrong place.
We don't use bump stickers but let me ask you a couple questions to create a little more discussion on this topic.
...I won't buy from a dealer with bump stickers either, but that's my personal choice. I won't buy a depreciating item like a car over MSRP just on principles.
Does that mean you would pay MSRP but not the bump? I guess if your hanging around edmunds your prob not a full list guy...so you expect a discount, you haggle and buy the car, right? Then what is the diff which sticker they start from? Make your offer, if they take it fine if not leave....no biggie and the bump sticker didnt matter at all did it?
...A bump sticker can tell something about the car and popular demand, or about the dealership, but not about the sales staff.
I agree, it can signal all the things you mentioned.
I want to pay MSRP or less, depending on market prices for ther car I want. By nature I am generally not attracted to the latest and greatest, but to what suits my needs and fancy. That said, I guess most of the time I see ADM stickers on high-demand cars, which I am not likely to buy anyway.
I once saw a $1,500 ADM on a Honda Accord (this was in about 1985) and didn't know how to go about getting to the right price, so I went elsewhere where the price on the window was MSRP. I think a LOT of customers are in that boat today, and some end up paying much more than necessary through honest ignorance. Since then I've learned (mostly here) that I should have done my homework first, and then simply offerred a fair price at the first store. I can always walk if they don't accept it (which I know is your point.)
I'm not concerned with getting a better price than my neighbor, and don't sweat a $100 or so at the bottom line. I'd rather have a simple deal and go away happy with my car. However, when pushed I can be stubborn. I have filed a complaint in the past when being handled by a dealer (false advertising on the Web - long story, another time.) I won't let myself get taken if I can help it, and stores that use ADM's on cars that are not hi-demand products run close to the ethics line IMO, so I avoid them.
.. **You are always spouting stuff about how you are an honest dealer that is nice to work with and you really try to make customers happy. Well, that last post certainly doesn't indicate that to me** .....
Whooooa Nelly ... slow down, you're speeding.!
Just because you don't like a price doesn't make a dealer, Isell or anyone else sleazy .. it just means you just don't like the price and you got your feelings hurt, period.
In case you haven't looked around lately, anyone can *ask" anything they want for anything .. and that includes clothes, furniture, antiques, jewelry, boats, homes, chirping birds and golf clubs ..
The Pro Shop down the street gets $549 for the new Taylor Made Mens r7 quad Driver, and they sell plenty of them .. but if you go online and shop a few stores you can pick one up for $375/$400 - does that make them sleazy ..?? ... the jewelry store at the Mall gets $2,900 for a certain Omega watch, but if you look around and spend a little time you can find one for $1,700 -- does that make them sleazy.?? ... a certain furniture store in the area gets $4,900 for a certain bedroom set, but if I look around and take my time I can get one for $2,800 --- does that make them sleazy ...??????
All do respect lhess, but business is business "just look around" .. also Isell is one of the "good guys" and nowhere in his post did he mean anything derogatory, I think you woke up this morning with a razor blade in your hand and a mission .... it's simple ~ if you don't like the price on the Mitsu, give it a few months and it will come down - and so will your blood pressure ........ ....
Terry.
PS: Antiques ...? ... lots of pieces get sold at $2,000 (whether real or not) that costs the dealer $500 or less .. isn't that like the pot calling the kettle black.?!? ...l.o.l.........
how about when you see a bump sticker, and you look in or on the car and you don't see a number of the items listed on that sticker? i've seen this several times. laugh.
once when shopping for an Odysessy I asked the sales rep to find me the car without all the additional add-ons like wheel trim, roof rack, muds, cargo tray, mop + glow... said the vehicle couldn't be located. funny - i told him, i just drove by your dealership and a transport of unadorned LXs was being offloaded. he wouldn't sell me one!
into the "sleazebag sales" category, but he also lumped me into the "cut-throat, won't buy it unless it's under invoice, unreasonabe car buyer" just because I don't like bump stickers. I don't know him and he doesn't know me. My apologies for the personal cut, but not my stand on bumps.
OK, since we have all the answers here, the second mitsu dealer I visited had a $699 Environmental Package on their eclipse, plus a market adjustment. What is this environmental package likely to be? And, honestly, I would just rather see a $3000 bump on the car than them trying to pretend that they've really added something to the car and I have to pay for it.
The environmental package is likely paint sealant and fabric protection. While not totally worthless, $699 is a LOT of money for that. A good wax job and a can of Scotchguard should cost you about $30. I'd say they might as well just use the bump sticker.
That would be metro-Georgia, and the bumping with (let's use the term inaccurate) stickers occured at two greater metro Honda dealerships.
The specific dealership that wouldn't sell me the vehicle without it being tricked out for additional profit, even though you and I know the LXs come off the transport without adornment unless they are comming from another dealership which is bumping too (or someone ordered it that way and bawlked (?)) - they also ran a large newspaper ad with a price which stated: including tags, title and tax. They provided the model number for the LX and no color code restriction in the add.
The gimic was (obviously) to get you in and try real hard to force people to buy vehicles they didn't want claiming "that's how they came". So no surprise, they wouldn't sell me the vehicle for the AD price either (like we all know that's not a price you can buy the vehicle for anyway).
We are in the bait and switch forum right?
And this salesman was so unprofessional, he kept calling me and my wife asking what it would take to do a deal. He even insulted us a few times. But he wasn't going to sell me a car, and I knew it, because he knew by that point I was going to nuke him on the Customer Satisfaction Survey if he was silly enough to sell me the vehicle by that time for a reasonable profit. He was looking at 0s across the board...
Another dealership - they wouldn't sell me a vehicle (in any color; with or without options) unless I agreed to VIN etching. LOL. For my own protection. On a mini-van no less. Geesh.
Another dealership further out from the Metro area claimed that floor mats were an extra charge on the ODY...and you and I know...while that might fly on a Toyota, it doesn't wash on a Honda. Please.
I found a professional salesman at a dealership that knew I was serious and who had the car minus the plastic. He recognized I had done my homework and left plenty of profit in the deal for them with minimal work all around. With no muss or fuss, we had it done in less than 1/2 hour.
The finance guy actually beat my credit union rate.
Very, very interesting story, user. Thanks for telling it.
You show that a lot of people just want to be treated with respect and given a fair, if not great, price.
Do you think the dealers are more sleazy in your area? You know, the stereotype of the smooth-talking good ole boy type who can sell swamp water to a fella living in the Okefenokee.
...... **and you look in or on the car and you don't see a number of the items listed on that sticker? i've seen this several times. laugh.** ....
Well, it sounds like you were in the same situation I was in a month ago ....
I was working with one of the largest and biggest realtors in the south - and she doesn't even know the difference between a sprayed-on fireplace and the real thing, or the difference between Corian and marble, and this is with 22 years in the biz and 88 agents working for her .... so do I knock every realtor on the planet.? ... nope, I just found a different Realtor ...
Folks seem to very naive nowadays if they think every stock broker, dentist, lawyer, plumber or car salesman knows what they're doing .. remember, some folks are just "in" a business and some folks know their business ..... that's a big difference.!
Comments
Out of curiosity I checked Road and Track Buyer's Guide and it shows Honda having only 3 year/36000 mile powertrain warranty in the US, is this right?
In Canada we have 5 year/60000mile (5 year/100000km) powertrain warranty. I wonder why the difference.
2016 Audi A7 3.0T S Line, 2021 Subaru WRX
When I start shopping the Internet I have already eliminated the local dealers. I just had a great Internet buying experience. I emailed several Portland area VW dealers looking for the best deal on a Passat TDI. Only one responded and very promptly. We went back and forth on different vehicles. He gave me an out the door cash price that was below even what I thought possible. We flew up the next week from San Diego to Portland. The Internet salesman from Armstrong VW picked us up in the new car. Gave me a chance to drive back to the dealership. He went over the vehicle with us. The Finance guy asked if we wanted the extended warranty and I said no. Gave him the cashiers check and headed back to San Diego. They gave us a 3 MONTH temporary tag. When I flew back to Alaska the next week I took the MCO into the DMV and got my plates. Very simple and no hassles. We love the car. Had one small issue with the down volume on the steering wheel. Took it into Drew VW here in San Diego. They gave us a loaner car as they had to get a new steering wheel. That was great service also. All done on the phone and mostly by email. I like the record of an email. I refuse to sit and haggle with a salesman and his manager. My time is too valuable. I tell them what I will pay under invoice and they have two options take or leave it. I prefer using the Internet as I can sit here and gaze out across the valley while I am shopping. I buy almost everything via the Internet now. Saves a lot of gas and hassles.
Course I understand GM's angle - they'd been out of business a few years back if they had to back up their "lemon fleet" any longer than, honestly, less than 2 years with the miles most folks drive.
glad you have good experiences with the internet!
-thene
Same with the current Mazda. I'm not sure of the exact number of dealerships in the state, but I can guarantee there are no more than 4 or 5. The only dealerships we have locally (right here in Summersville) are GM, Pontiac, Buick, Chevrolet, Chrysler, Dodge, and Jeep - all owned by the same guy. Nearest Ford, nissan, subaru, hyundai, cadillac is an hour away. Nearest honda, vw, mazda, is 2 hours..............
In some cases, what does it matter if you make a one-time trip out of town to buy the car you want at the price you can pay? Rural areas are a different ball game and we all know what competition does for pricing!!
-thene
The next day I had to combine forces with my wife, who managed to bruise a few ribs near Pillow Rock, to be able to start our drive home. I got the steering wheel and the gas, brake and clutch pedals, she got the stick shift, the climate controls and the audio system.
That kind of felt like "Bait & Switch", you know, "Go to the hospital and get some anti-venom", followed by, "Nope, go back to your camp site and take some aspirin."
In any event, I still like Summersville. ;-)
Best Regards,
Shipo
This is not true as far as my experience goes. I bought from the store closest to home and take it for servicing to the store near work. I always get top-notch service. But, something funny happened after the 3rd visit...I found I had a different plate frame after that visit!
Also, I take our Lexus to the local Toyota dealer for service since the price differs by almost a factor of 3 (30K service $900 at Lexus, $285 at Toyota). Again I am treated fairly.
Now warranty repairs may be another issue. But, since I buy Toyotas/Lexuses only, that is a moot point.
Wow...that must really limit your choices.
These must not be selling very well.
thene
I can understand bumping the price in a trully exclusive car that is limited in production (I still don't like it), but, come on, you'd think these dealers would be worried about their investments as being Mitsu dealers (the company is not exactly topping the Fortune 500 at the moment) and would be working to promote the car and the company for some type of small success for all of them!! LOSERS!!
I'm not interested in the coupe, but plan to buy the convertible when it comes out next year, but no matter how bad I want one, I will not buy from a dealer that's bumping the prices. As one guy in the Mitsu forum said, if they're greedy enough to bump stickers, they probably pad your repair bill whenever possible too!!
It is funny...people who don't like second stickers usually don't want to pay MSRP either. What's the difference?
Nothing personal here, but that rates right up there in the "3 Stupidest Questions of the Day!"
What would everyone think if we went to Wal-Mart and all the toilet paper had an additional $1.50 on it just to increase Wal-Mart's profits? There's no tp shortage, Wal-Mart just really wanted to make some extra profit.
now on the eclipse, i see a second sticker as being silly - its not a special car, but, if a dealer can get that price, there is nothing wrong or illegal in that - and you don't have to buy it at that price. no one is forcing you!
anyways, i just wanted to point out the other side...people forget that its a business sometimes, and think dealers should just hand everything away because they were so skeevy in years past. kind of like retribution or something...
well, thats just my 2 cents at least!
-thene
Honestly, bump stickers on everyday cars are just not smart. The folks who do get wrapped up in owning "one of the first ones available" realize that it's depreciating just as fast as the ones that people paid MSRP or less, and then they're mad at the dealer, the maufacturer and the car. How does that benefit anyone in the long run?
thene is right - no one is forcing me to buy at that price or any other. But it just really gives me a negative attitude toward these dealers (and thene and isell are always telling us to reward the honest, do-good dealers and not the sleazebags) and I won't go back there when I am ready to buy one. Win some, lose some!!
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
I think the point of that post was, if you think it is evil/immoral for a dealer to ask for more than MSRP, why isn't it just as bad for a buyer to offer to pay less? Either MSRP is sacred, or it's not, but you can't have it both ways.
The business case for not adding an Adm sticker is different (that is, it might be better customer relations to not do it). But, buyers today are quite savvy at demanding deals cut to the bone, so who can blame dealers for trying to make a few $$ when they can?
If you don't like the asking price, offer less,or walk.
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
Car dealers want us to trust them. However, when they put a bump sticker on a new car it looks like they just want to get all of the money they can out of our pocket.
When they treat customers like that, the customer becomes very suspicious when they recommend service like a tranny flush at 15K miles.
A dealer who puts bump stickers on new cars ahould not whine when their customers go somewhere else for non-warranty service.
Sale price $22K - bank won't finance customer for $27K that they need ($22K + $5K from previous car)
Sale price $27K ($25K MSRP + bump) - bank will finance.
Just a game. If you're not upside-down, the dealer isn't really expecting you to pay the premium.
As I said, we're also talking about a company that is barely treading water here (does that not factor in at all?), they can hardly give cars away, and I honestly don't think that the Eclipse is so hot that it's going to go in the other direction for them. Let's put this into perspective for the situation at hand.
Business in the US has changed with the advent of all these informed shoppers. Period. It's now too easy to access invoices on cars, find out what a dealer has in a vehicle and you offer less. I'm in the antiques business and I have to haggle with people everyday to make my living. Some items I can discount more than others (or I have to discount them more to sell them). The one thing I can't get away with is hanging another tag on my items and expecting them to pay a little more than my original price. Wouldn't even try it because I would have customers walk out the door and never return - I can't afford that!!
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
like i said before - if someone is willing to pay the price, then they will keep selling it there til noone does. like my example before - you have one house and 50 potential customers, and all are willing to pay $375,000 for a house worth $275,000 - who are you to say no to that money, right? sure, it could leave a sour taste in someones mouth, but thats up to each individual dealer to decide.
lhess, i would be curious, what kind of markup do you have on your antiques (see, i remembered! :-) ) - i was looking at an Xterra today, and the difference between invoice and MSRP isnt even close to 10%! TV's have a markup of nearly 100% - just some things to think about :-)
honestly, i dont know how dealer invoices were made available to the general public (i thought i heard once the manufacturers sold the info), but we're the only retail industry that has our costs know to the public. other dealers dont help (the cutthroat ones) that sell cars for literally nothing, in order to hit volume - because it really kills the smaller dealers like ourselves. only because people want the best price, and figure they'll just service elsewhere...
for a small dealer like we are, we get killed by other volume dealers, and by consumers who expect us to match every loser deal they got from the volume dealer. it really can be a tough business
just some thoughts from the dark side
-thene
Well, they sure help us car buyers!
Buying cars these days is so much nicer than it used to be. In the 60's, no one knew anything about an invoice price. If you saw a new car at an American car dealer, it had a base price and then a whole list of options. No two cars would have the exact same options, so it was very difficult to compare prices.
You never hear me talk about the good old days.
i wont even go into the whole "do you work for free" argument because it just turns into a mess...
its like walmart coming in to blow mom and pop's place out of the water...
great for the consumer...not great for business.
just my 1.34 cents
-thene
Bump stickers really isn't a "trick", just the dealers trying to make as much as possible. Oh, and you can forget about most dealers trying build "customer relations".
I'm looking for the best possible price on either a 2002 Honda Accord or Toyota Camry with about 40000 miles or lower. I get the sense that it wouldn't be a bad idea to pick up a (non-smoker's) lease car from some dealer. There seems to be a lot of Accords around from dealers, mostly asking around $14000 (Looking at Autotrader.com).
1. Is it possible to deal with a fleet manager rather than a retail dealer to get a better price? I read that in a newspaper article recently. True?
2. Is there any way to purchase closer to the Private party orTrade-in price rather than the retail price form KBB or Edmunds?
3. Are "no-dicker sticker" outfits like Carmax or Enterprise Rental Sales truly no negotiation, or not? (Enterprise seems about$1000 to 1500 above some dealers.)
4. Are the retail prices from dealers that you see in Autotrader, say for Accords or Camrys a starting point for negotiation from which a retail buyer from which I'd be trying to work towards the Edmunds or KBB trade-in value? I'm thinking it would be nice if I could go in to one of these dealerships and say: "I want to buy with cash today and I want to pay no more than $500 over trade-in value. If you can agree to that and not add any additional processing charges, I can be in and out of here in 20 minutes after a satisfactory brief test drive."
Am I living in a dream world?
Check into the new ones first. An Accord LX/Camry LE can be bought new for $18, give or take $800 or so. So you have a full warranty while you're making payments. This has been discussed here often, and while not everyone agrees with this conclusion, it's at least debatable. As opposed to a Ford Taurus, which everyone agrees should be bought used because the depreciation is so severe.
Looking for the "best possible price" will likely get you a rat of a car. Plenty of those out there, but the nice ones for $1k more are usually worth it. I know a car dealer who stopped buying off-lease, 3-year-old Hondas because he can't make more than $500 on them. They are THAT expensive at the auction.
Looking for a CamCord? Buy new. Looking for a deal on an 02? Buy a Taurus with the Duratec engine. Spend another $1k and buy an Impala with the 3800 V6.
1. Is it possible to deal with a fleet manager rather than a retail dealer to get a better price? I read that in a newspaper article recently. True?
No. Many journalists know nothing about the things they write about. The "fleet manager" is usually just another salesman. When he only deals with fleet sales, he won't deal with you, and he only does new cars. In bundles of 5 and up :-)
3. Are "no-dicker sticker" outfits like Carmax or Enterprise Rental Sales truly no negotiation, or not? (Enterprise seems about$1000 to 1500 above some dealers.)
I believe they truly are no-haggle. Carmax is great for trading your car in, not so great for buying. Prices are high. Real men negotiate. :shades:
4. Are the retail prices from dealers that you see in Autotrader, say for Accords or Camrys a starting point for negotiation from which a retail buyer from which I'd be trying to work towards the Edmunds or KBB trade-in value? I'm thinking it would be nice if I could go in to one of these dealerships and say: "I want to buy with cash today and I want to pay no more than $500 over trade-in value. If you can agree to that and not add any additional processing charges, I can be in and out of here in 20 minutes after a satisfactory brief test drive."
Don't do it. You'll end up with a lousy car for the target price. There is no set value for used cars. Find something you like, then come back to Edmunds and ask over at Real-World Trade-in Value what it might be worth. Much better that way. Read around on the forums that deal with used cars, and you'll get a real education on this. I sure did.
Good luck,
-Mathias
-thene
Funny...if you don't like the sticker, you can simply walk out.
If, on the other hand a salesperson winds up with a rotten customer, they have little choice other than to grin and bear it.
I'm not in the market for an eclipse at the moment, but when I am, I won't buy from the sleazebag dealers that bump them, regardless of the reasons for bumping them. I'm not an unreasonable shopper either. I have never walked onto a lot and demanded to pay a ridiculously low price on a new model - if I wanted a new eclipse right now, I would reasonably expect to pay sticker for it - and I can walk away NICELY from any deal I'm not interested in. Period!
I think you are missing what isell was saying. I saw nothing in his post to suggest he is other than a decent and honest salesperson, which I believe he is. He was trying to answer your question about why dealers use bump stickers. If you're tarring all auto salespeople with the same brush you're in the wrong place.
These reflect what the manufacturer thinks the cars should sell for, more or less.
Some cars command a price higher than MSRP. This doesn't make then a **bad** value. It's just the market at that particular time.
A lot of cars sell for less than MSRP. Again, that's the market dictating prices.
If a person doesn't like the second sticker, it's a simple matter to simply offer less.
It doesn't make that store a bad dealership!
...I won't buy from a dealer with bump stickers either, but that's my personal choice. I won't buy a depreciating item like a car over MSRP just on principles.
Does that mean you would pay MSRP but not the bump? I guess if your hanging around edmunds your prob not a full list guy...so you expect a discount, you haggle and buy the car, right? Then what is the diff which sticker they start from? Make your offer, if they take it fine if not leave....no biggie and the bump sticker didnt matter at all did it?
...A bump sticker can tell something about the car and popular demand, or about the dealership, but not about the sales staff.
I agree, it can signal all the things you mentioned.
I once saw a $1,500 ADM on a Honda Accord (this was in about 1985) and didn't know how to go about getting to the right price, so I went elsewhere where the price on the window was MSRP. I think a LOT of customers are in that boat today, and some end up paying much more than necessary through honest ignorance. Since then I've learned (mostly here) that I should have done my homework first, and then simply offerred a fair price at the first store. I can always walk if they don't accept it (which I know is your point.)
I'm not concerned with getting a better price than my neighbor, and don't sweat a $100 or so at the bottom line. I'd rather have a simple deal and go away happy with my car. However, when pushed I can be stubborn. I have filed a complaint in the past when being handled by a dealer (false advertising on the Web - long story, another time.) I won't let myself get taken if I can help it, and stores that use ADM's on cars that are not hi-demand products run close to the ethics line IMO, so I avoid them.
How's that?
Whooooa Nelly ... slow down, you're speeding.!
Just because you don't like a price doesn't make a dealer, Isell or anyone else sleazy .. it just means you just don't like the price and you got your feelings hurt, period.
In case you haven't looked around lately, anyone can *ask" anything they want for anything .. and that includes clothes, furniture, antiques, jewelry, boats, homes, chirping birds and golf clubs ..
The Pro Shop down the street gets $549 for the new Taylor Made Mens r7 quad Driver, and they sell plenty of them .. but if you go online and shop a few stores you can pick one up for $375/$400 - does that make them sleazy ..?? ... the jewelry store at the Mall gets $2,900 for a certain Omega watch, but if you look around and spend a little time you can find one for $1,700 -- does that make them sleazy.?? ... a certain furniture store in the area gets $4,900 for a certain bedroom set, but if I look around and take my time I can get one for $2,800 --- does that make them sleazy ...??????
All do respect lhess, but business is business "just look around" .. also Isell is one of the "good guys" and nowhere in his post did he mean anything derogatory, I think you woke up this morning with a razor blade in your hand and a mission .... it's simple ~ if you don't like the price on the Mitsu, give it a few months and it will come down - and so will your blood pressure ........
Terry.
PS: Antiques ...? ... lots of pieces get sold at $2,000 (whether real or not) that costs the dealer $500 or less .. isn't that like the pot calling the kettle black.?!? ...l.o.l.........
once when shopping for an Odysessy I asked the sales rep to find me the car without all the additional add-ons like wheel trim, roof rack, muds, cargo tray, mop + glow... said the vehicle couldn't be located. funny - i told him, i just drove by your dealership and a transport of unadorned LXs was being offloaded. he wouldn't sell me one!
OK, since we have all the answers here, the second mitsu dealer I visited had a $699 Environmental Package on their eclipse, plus a market adjustment. What is this environmental package likely to be? And, honestly, I would just rather see a $3000 bump on the car than them trying to pretend that they've really added something to the car and I have to pay for it.
That would be metro-Georgia, and the bumping with (let's use the term inaccurate) stickers occured at two greater metro Honda dealerships.
The specific dealership that wouldn't sell me the vehicle without it being tricked out for additional profit, even though you and I know the LXs come off the transport without adornment unless they are comming from another dealership which is bumping too (or someone ordered it that way and bawlked (?)) - they also ran a large newspaper ad with a price which stated: including tags, title and tax. They provided the model number for the LX and no color code restriction in the add.
The gimic was (obviously) to get you in and try real hard to force people to buy vehicles they didn't want claiming "that's how they came". So no surprise, they wouldn't sell me the vehicle for the AD price either (like we all know that's not a price you can buy the vehicle for anyway).
We are in the bait and switch forum right?
And this salesman was so unprofessional, he kept calling me and my wife asking what it would take to do a deal. He even insulted us a few times. But he wasn't going to sell me a car, and I knew it, because he knew by that point I was going to nuke him on the Customer Satisfaction Survey if he was silly enough to sell me the vehicle by that time for a reasonable profit. He was looking at 0s across the board...
Another dealership - they wouldn't sell me a vehicle (in any color; with or without options) unless I agreed to VIN etching. LOL. For my own protection. On a mini-van no less. Geesh.
Another dealership further out from the Metro area claimed that floor mats were an extra charge on the ODY...and you and I know...while that might fly on a Toyota, it doesn't wash on a Honda. Please.
I found a professional salesman at a dealership that knew I was serious and who had the car minus the plastic. He recognized I had done my homework and left plenty of profit in the deal for them with minimal work all around. With no muss or fuss, we had it done in less than 1/2 hour.
The finance guy actually beat my credit union rate.
Customer Satisfaction Survey? 5s all the way!
Too bad...I'm glad it worked out for you in the end. There ARE good stores out there!
You show that a lot of people just want to be treated with respect and given a fair, if not great, price.
Do you think the dealers are more sleazy in your area? You know, the stereotype of the smooth-talking good ole boy type who can sell swamp water to a fella living in the Okefenokee.
Well, it sounds like you were in the same situation I was in a month ago ....
I was working with one of the largest and biggest realtors in the south - and she doesn't even know the difference between a sprayed-on fireplace and the real thing, or the difference between Corian and marble, and this is with 22 years in the biz and 88 agents working for her .... so do I knock every realtor on the planet.? ... nope, I just found a different Realtor ...
Folks seem to very naive nowadays if they think every stock broker, dentist, lawyer, plumber or car salesman knows what they're doing .. remember, some folks are just "in" a business and some folks know their business ..... that's a big difference.!
Terry