Did you recently take on (or consider) a loan of 84 months or longer on a car purchase?
A reporter would like to speak with you about your experience; please reach out to PR@Edmunds.com by 7/25 for details.
Options

Dealer's Tricks - bait & switch, etc.

1585961636481

Comments

  • scottay1scottay1 Member Posts: 22
    . once you mention to someone that your $500 below invoice sale price works out to be $32567 out the door, they want to negotiate to $32000 even to make the deal. sorry - the governor wants her sales tax, and if you want to pay only $32000, you can go down to the state capitol building and take it up with her>>>>>>looks like you have 32000 places to whittle away 567, why do you assume it has to come from taxes?????
  • alfoxalfox Member Posts: 708
    are not ready to accept ANY of the responsibility in this situation - it's all them, right?

    Then why ask a bunch of total strangers for advice? You obviously have a great handle on things. Good luck.
  • scottay1scottay1 Member Posts: 22
    And you are dead on with your OTD offers. This seems to be increasing.

    " OK, I'll buy the used car you have on sale for 16,995 but I want to pay 16,000 OTD!

    " So, you are offering 14,600 for my 17,000 car that's already been reduced by 1500.00?"

    " Oh, no...I want to pay you 16,000...out the door!">>>>>>so get a clue, make it 16,000, i dont care how , just do it if you want the sale.!!!!
  • scottay1scottay1 Member Posts: 22
    OTD is a defense from those sneaky charges (AAA, BBB, CCC, DDD). If you say in your ad "YOU PAY $14998", but I see my checkbook losing $17450 (you know: tax, title, registration, acquisition, car wash, boat payment, allotment, storage, and fabric protection on manager's couch), the only way to defend is "Give me OTD, so I can compare". Whether ofering $15K OTD for $17K+tax car is reasonable, it is an entirely different discussion....>>>>>.exactly!!! and if you cant do it, tell me. dont say its OTD, then change your mind!
  • scottay1scottay1 Member Posts: 22
    gallileo .......i think thats good stratigy!
  • scottay1scottay1 Member Posts: 22
    No, i'm over it. And i would like to thank everone for their input. I will think of it as a learning experience Learned some good tips and advise. did you not see where i actually agreed with some points? I will ask for detailed OTD info, type clearer and more grammatical, walk if i dont like the deal, etc.
    But I do hafta ask " is everyone okay with everything the "internet" sales person did ?" Seems to me she screwed up by saying it was OTD.
  • rroyce10rroyce10 Member Posts: 9,332
    ... ** But I do hafta ask " is everyone okay with everything the "internet" sales person did ?" Seems to me she screwed up by saying it was OTD.** ...

    Scott .. what part of that didn't you understand -- the beginning, the middle or the end ...?!?

    I guess the rule of 21's is not working out for you .... that means, talking to 21 people til' someone agree's with you ...l.o.l......

    Terry ;)
  • thenebeanthenebean Member Posts: 1,124
    well scottay, there aren't 32000 other places to whittle away 567 - we're already giving a discounted price - it's not like all 32000 are there for are discounting pleasure! unfortunately, we BUY the car from the manufacturer, and that does have a cost associated to it. we also have a business to run - so THAT has a cost to it. we have employees to pay, heating bills to keep up, maintenence, healthcare benefits, etc. so sometimes there ARENT 567 places to whittle away...

    unfortunately this is the problem with some consumers sometimes...after giving a very discounted price, you figure another 500-1000 is nothing in the grand scheme of things (i mean isnt $500 meaningless on a car thats $30000?). and that we should be able to come down more - unfortunately there is a limit, and some people don't understand that...

    if we try to make a profit, we're crooks - if we try to sell you additional products, we're skeevy, it seems as though its a no win situation for us sometimes :(

    -thene
  • kyfdxkyfdx Moderator Posts: 265,814
    You feel they weren't honest with you...

    Just go somewhere else..

    If the service sucks at the local Burger King, do you call up national headquarters and complain? (okay, bad analogy.. maybe you do..)

    If you don't get taken, there is nothing to be done... Just move along..

    It doesn't matter if we think they were right or wrong..

    regards,
    kyfdx

    Edmunds Price Checker
    Edmunds Lease Calculator
    Did you get a good deal? Be sure to come back and share!

    Edmunds Moderator

  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    Yeah, we charge these everyday but people wan't them "thrown in" for some reason.

    Our "sneaky charges" include....

    Sales Tax...imagine that. It's a whopping 9.1% on cars in my part of WA.

    License...another awful thing....usually 100-150.00

    Doc Fee....we do the DMV work for you.....35.00

    Yes, you need to move on.....
  • stickguystickguy Member Posts: 53,360
    when you sit down in person and write up a deal sheet, it has all the figures on it. If you want to negotiate via email, break out the components. Either do a chart, or ask for the pieces:

    1) selling price of car
    2) Dealer fees
    3) dmv fees
    4) taxes (specifying where you live/will register, etc.)
    5) total of 1-4, which should be the OTD price.

    Without knowing 1-4, #5 is pretty much meaningless.

    And since 3 & 4 are fixed (that is, should be the same at any dealer), really only 1 & 2 should matter. And 1 & 2 are the #s you can shop at other dealers, which may be why they are harder to get!

    2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.

  • bobstbobst Member Posts: 1,776
    But I do hafta ask " is everyone okay with everything the "internet" sales person did ?"

    Yes, I am OK with what the person did.

    As you grow up, Scottay, you will find people doing a lot of things that upset you, and you may even learrn how to deal with them without throwing a hissy fit.
  • rroyce10rroyce10 Member Posts: 9,332
    ...... You catching any of the Open .....?

    Terry.
  • blh7068blh7068 Member Posts: 375
    " i can adjust my typing to what ever level they need to be understood. I understand it would better for my next deal to be more precise, but if you see the problem in 100 stores, its not just me.......the dealers need to adapt! "

    Dealers need to adapt? No, its up to you..You are the one seeking the information.

    It's up to you to use proper grammar, type with clarity and be specific. Doing so will increase your chances of getting replied to in kind.
  • bobstbobst Member Posts: 1,776
    The Open? Who cares? Today we went to a singing performance given by our granddaughter's kindergarden class, and it was one of the most wondderful experiences of my life.

    More wonderful than getting a good deal on a car? Just a little.

    Bob
  • steine13steine13 Member Posts: 2,825
    I've never done OTD. I've always phrased it as "I'll pay this much for the car, + TTL". But I do ask up front what fees will be added. And I write it down, and there have never been any shenanigans. It's "price" + 6% tax, + $100 (or $40, or $120) DOC, + license and registration.

    But I've heard stories where the DOC fee was $250 to $500, and that's just silly. So hooray for the good old OTD price.

    I don't really see a problem with someone wanting to know what it'll cost to drive away in a car they're thinking about buying. Ya gotta figure them taxes anyway, no? Not everyone who makes an OTD offer or who wants an OTD price is a grinder.

    Bewildered by the auto business, as usual, I remain
    -Mathias
  • rroyce10rroyce10 Member Posts: 9,332
    ....... The one thing you keep forgetting is ... you're a cash buyer and have been for a looooong time, you're a minority and it's hard for you to grasp sometimes, that's probably why your bewildered ....

    Do you think all of the new "real estate action" is from great investors.? heck no.! ..l.o.l... folks aren't buying a house, they're buying a payment ... 3/4 years ago a payment on a $200,000 home was around $1,500 a month (plus the stuff) now it's around $1,100 because of the cheap rates, so renters become buyers, and buyers buy bigger homes - simple ... same thing in the car biz since Henry Ford ...

    The big difference.? ... buyers drop in the taxes, the pay-offs, the broken windshield, the blown head gasket, the chirping birds and they're trying to hit a payment with little or no money down (just like most home buyers) .. and when that payment is $95/$125/$165 a month more, then they drive down the block and get with the next dealer and see's what he can do .. usually on a vehicle that is alot less money to suck up all of the negative equity, most people just won't admit it --- dealers probably *waste* more time on this than any other thing in the business .... do you think BMW is doing so well because they're great and reliable cars.? no way .l.o.l... it's because of cheap lease rates (payments) and it says: "Bee em dubba U" on the back ..... 21 years in the biz and this is the third time I've seen the turn of the wheel ....

    ... Cash buyers.? no sweat ... they are a breeze, they got the $$, they can cut you a check, they usually don't have a trade and if they do, they have the title in their back pocket - and all of the negotiations are based on one simple thing: "price of the vehicle" - not the pay-off -- not the taxes --- not how to get them out of their 48 month lease ......

    I've never counted them (and I won't) but with 1,891,473 posts on Edmunds, how many discussions "really" go on about payments and the "Shadow or the Echo" of the current loan.? .. Naw, it always becomes "the dealer, the dealer, the dealer" .. finally, if you read enough of "Lease Questions - Ask Here", then maybe some folks will get it ....................... :P



    Terry.

    PS: how did the cycle go.?
  • graphicguygraphicguy Member Posts: 14,121
    I've seen more and more of this at Edmunds. Someone e-mails a dozen dealers wanting their best deal OTD. Some dealers "File 13" them, some respond with "come on in and sit down with us"....and then some respond with a number.

    While, I certainly can understand doing a bit of research regarding any dealer's "in stock" vehicles via the internet, I'm one of the people who shop the dealer to see what kind of people I'm dealing with. I certainly don't want to go to someone who I may or may not like upon meeting them, then buy a car/truck from them. Hell, if I'm laying down $25K-$30K-$40K for a vehicle, I want to KNOW the dealership and the personnel of the dealership I'm going to be interfacing with for the next 5-6 years.

    In my area, that's the only way to know the "good" dealers from the "bad" dealers. You can't do that from the internet.

    As far as price is concerned, if you've done any sort of research at all....here at Edmunds, your local newspaper, etc., you should have a pretty good idea what any vehicle will sell for....particularly a new one. From my perspective, if you are getting a fair deal and the dealers is making some coin to keep the doors open, then it should be easy-peazy to buy a car and feel good about it.

    I can't feel good about buying something for 10s of thousands of dollars via e-mail or e-bay. I just don't have enough good info about the dealer to do that.

    I can only imagine what the "payment" buyer would be to deal with. I know there's a lot that's been written and discussed on both sides about payment buyers. But, to me it's very simple. If you're getting a fair price on the car you're purchasing, but you don't like the payment, put more money down to reduce it. Or, if you can't put more money down, maybe you're looking at a car that's out of your budget.

    I'm totally flabbergasted at some of what I read here with people financing at 72 months. How can you possibly justify that? I'm still in shock over 60 month financing. Only on rare occasions do I see leasing as a viable alternative.

    I must be getting old! :cry:
    2024 Kia EV6 GT-Line AWD Long Range
  • danf1danf1 Member Posts: 897
    If you think 72 months is outrageous, I could tell you some stories about 84 month or 96 month financing. Yes I really said 96 months, its not a typo. How about a 60 month lease?
  • damish003damish003 Member Posts: 303
    As Terry would likely say...Bingo!

    It makes so much more sense to me to buy cars in person, like graphicguy says. How can anyone get a sense of the dealers service facilities, loaner programs, quality of the experience, via an email message or even just a phone call? Is potentially saving $100-$200 or so THAT important to people? Buy 100 miles away to save a couple bucks and then service locally. To me, that misses the whole overall buying experience. Do it right, and at a good dealership, and car buying can actually be fun!

    Rant off ;)

    -Dan-
  • kyfdxkyfdx Moderator Posts: 265,814
    You can save a lot of time using the internet.. I found my last car on the internet, even negotiated the price...

    BUT, I flew up there and paid in person, after inspecting the car... Fully prepared to walk away..

    In the end... you have to do the deal face-to-face..

    regards,
    kyfdx

    Edmunds Price Checker
    Edmunds Lease Calculator
    Did you get a good deal? Be sure to come back and share!

    Edmunds Moderator

  • graphicguygraphicguy Member Posts: 14,121
    ky....I'd have to be certain I was saving an awful lot of money buying via internet. In your situation, it sounds like that's the case.

    It's hard for me to understand why a local dealer wouldn't "cut" the better deal than one that was 100s of miles away.

    I'm not saying it can't be done. With the limited "internet" shopping I've done for a vehicle, I've yet been able to do it, though.

    Maybe I'm a "nervous nelly", but I'd be concerned that the deal would somehow not be the deal I thought it was if I travelled to a distant dealer that quoted me a huge difference between what I could do locally.

    While you can't put a dollar amount on the types of service you might get from your in-town dealer, I do put a value on relationship with the local dealership's personnel.

    Case in point, as you know I'm having some issues with a Toyota Tacoma. If I had bought it from a remote dealership, I'd probably be "up the creek without a paddle" if I had bought it 100s of miles away.

    But, you're right....eventually you have to go to a dealership anyway to close a deal. Might as well have a relationship with a local one for both purchase and service, if for nothing other than convenience.
    2024 Kia EV6 GT-Line AWD Long Range
  • kyfdxkyfdx Moderator Posts: 265,814
    In my case... it was a used car...

    For a new car, I'd travel a couple of hours to save $500, as all I've blown is one afternoon.. My last new car, I bought in Chillicothe, as supply was low here in town, and I happened to be driving through on my way to a weekend getaway.. Just dumb luck that I stumbled on to the exact new car that I wanted, at the exact time I needed to buy it.... And, got a good deal..

    I always like to buy locally, but using the internet to gauge the market, and the willingness to go out of town for substantial savings can bring the local dealer to his senses... It is always preferable to do a local deal..

    regards,
    kyfdx

    Edmunds Price Checker
    Edmunds Lease Calculator
    Did you get a good deal? Be sure to come back and share!

    Edmunds Moderator

  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    A state park right next our home is currently having a motorhome sale/promotion. first time I've ever seen this.

    So, yesterday, I got curious and walked through looking at these monsters a couple of which were priced at a quarter of a million dollars and more.

    On the windshilds, they had the sales prices posted along with the payments. One of the 200,000 plus barges had 1495.00 per month! posted.

    The math didn't make sense so I walked closer and read the fine print.....

    240 MONTHS - TWENTY YEARS!!

    Soon, I realized that ALL of the payments posted were for 240 months!

    Then I thought about fuel costs, insurance, storage costs, repairs....

    Walked away slowly shaking my head.
  • alfoxalfox Member Posts: 708
    I've seen them that cost 2 or 3 times that much. When you look at the depreciation on them it's hard to understand why anyone would ever buy a new one.

    And the point about wanting to run down to the store, or to a local attraction is avalid one. Hence the need to tow a dinghy, which just adds to the cost. I've done the math on motor homes - car travel and staying in quality hotels is cheaper by far, even with meals included!
  • michaellnomichaellno Member Posts: 4,120
    I was looking at motorhomes a couple of months ago (not the 200K variety, mind you, but stuff in the 50-80K price range), mainly for giggles and grins.

    One thing that got my attention was the fact that the salesman told me that under special circumstances, an RV could be considered a 2nd home by the IRS, in which case the interest paid could be deductible on your taxes.

    I agree with alfox on this ... whenever you invest serious $$$$ in a toy, be it an RV, snowmobiles, motorcycles, boats, whatever, there is a lot of pressue to use it as much as possible to get your money's worth out of it.

    Some friends of ours have a 5th wheel camper and 3 kids ... during the summer, they use it pretty much every weekend. Of course, they just moved onto a several hundred acre ranch in eastern Colorado, so who knows if they still have it...
  • audia8qaudia8q Member Posts: 3,138
    what was edmunds TMV on that land yacht??
  • graphicguygraphicguy Member Posts: 14,121
    Speaking of long financing.....Friends of mine bought a 46' (I think) Carver about 10 years ago. Beautiful boat.

    Well, for the first couple of years, they spent every spring/summer/fall on it. As the years passed, they spent less and less time on it. Maintenance costs went up as did dock fees, gas, insurance etc. It got to the point where it became a real boat anchor, both financially and the amount of free time they had to spend keeping it in working order. Cost/fun ratio began to diminish quickly.

    You know how this ends. After about 4 years of ownership, they decided to put it up for sale (have to admit, I always enjoyed it, particularly since I only kicked in for fuel). Took them a year to sell it. That last year of ownership was "hell" for them.

    While I don't know the particulars, I do know they had a "long term" loan on it and lost quite a bit when they sold it. They were "uside down" on the loan and it wasn't pretty for an awfuly long time. But, they were just happy to be out from underneath it.

    As they say, the two best times with a boat are the day you buy it and the day you sell it.

    I'm certain that most of you in the car biz see this everyday. People come in, upside down on their vehicles, unhappy with it/can't afford it. They expect you to get them out of their dilema. When you can't, they get all bent out of shape yelling "ripoff". They finally find someone who will add more negative equity to their already poor equity situation and the whole thing repeats itself a couple of years down the road. To me, that's the most likely scenario for most who choose 60 month leases, 72 month financing, etc.
    2024 Kia EV6 GT-Line AWD Long Range
  • rroyce10rroyce10 Member Posts: 9,332
    ... **Soon, I realized that ALL of the payments posted were for 240 months!** ..

    Common, very common on large Motorhomes and big cruisers (yachts) but most folks take 12/15 years with a pretty strong down-payment ...

    Depending on the boat or Motorhome it also becomes a nice write-off - 2nd home .... like anything else, it's not the length or size, it's what you paid for it ... the guy that pays $112,000 for a new Formula boat is not going to be sitting as pretty as the guy who paid $95,000 in 6/7 years ................... :shades:



    Terry.
  • lhesslhess Member Posts: 379
    I see with those obnoxious toys look like they don't have 240 months left to live!!!!
  • dino001dino001 Member Posts: 6,191
    But I've heard stories where the DOC fee was $250 to $500, and that's just silly.
    $299-$599 dealer fee is what I have seen almost every Tampa Bay new car dealer I visited, when I bought my Subaru and I was shopping for another car. It wss usually put preprinted on their forms, very hard to even take a bite on. It is easier to get a price couple of hundreds down than take out that fee. It looks we live in different universe.

    2018 430i Gran Coupe

  • nortsr1nortsr1 Member Posts: 1,060
    It might be prinetd in the contract...but....all you have to do is contest it, get up and walk out, or have them give you xxx amount more for your trade...The bottom line is that you should offer them a "Bottom line price' and stick with it.
  • dino001dino001 Member Posts: 6,191
    Sure, sure you can. You mae also stay at home and buy nothing. I bet only small percentage of people would actually be able to take this charge away. "walk away" sounds great on paper, but if they just have the color, powertrain and equipment combination you want (and nobody else does), the price is close, just the fee stand in the way, it may be harder than you think.

    The point I am trying to make is that they really make sure that if you are less than well informed, they'll separate you from your money fast and hard. OTD is just one of possible attempts to make sure that the offer you hear/see is the one you think you hear/see. It is usually done by those who don't want to reasearch everything to death (I am actually not one of them, but most people I know are). Say: sticker says $20K, there is $2K rebate, 6.5% sales tax. The dealer is local, so all docs should be known, OTD, i.e. all taxes and fees included sounds good enough. How the dealer fills the sales form is not as important, since the variables have been narrowed. Works well for cash purchase. With financing/lease, the game is not over of course: still need to be careful, but at least one hurdle is done.

    2018 430i Gran Coupe

  • rroyce10rroyce10 Member Posts: 9,332
    ... **How the dealer fills the sales form is not as important, since the variables have been narrowed. ...

    Bingo ....................!

    Terry.
  • cadillacmikecadillacmike Member Posts: 543
    Regarding this: "I think all the techs are trained to put customers off until their warranties expire (and how long does that take since GM has the shortest warranty on the market right now?)."

    While I MIGHT agree with your premise about some dealers putting customers off until the warranty expires, your subsequent parenthetical zinger is most undeserved and most misleading statement.

    While most of GM's line is 36 months / 36,000 miles, which yes is "the lowest", just about EVERYONE else uses the same basic warranty period. I think there are less than 10 car lines that exceed this and one of them is Cadillac the LONGEST" bumper to bumper or any major car line. Of the non luxury brands, only Mazda with 36 / 50,000 and Chrysler (maybe) (and you'll need it on a pt/s cruiser) and Hyundai with their non-transferrable warranties cvome to mind. Maybe mitsubishiiti or someone else has a bit longer, but TOYota, honda, et, al, are all 36 / 36,000.

    Even my 1968 Cadillac had a 24 month / 24,000 mile warranty, TWICE as long as most warranties as late as 1991.

    So lets not be so misleading about what GM originally pioneered back in 1992.
  • audia8qaudia8q Member Posts: 3,138
    mazda is 4 year 50K
  • prodigalsunbrnprodigalsunbrn Member Posts: 19
    Motorhomes loose 50% of their value in 2-3 years. They only make sense if you are going to live in them for 6+ months a year. My folks do, they spent an ungodly amount of money on their rig, bought it new, even has a 42 inch plasma screen tv that folds down from the ceiling. Not a smart financial decision, but I guess it's their business how they choose to spend my inheritance.
  • rroyce10rroyce10 Member Posts: 9,332
    ... **but I guess it's their business how they choose to spend my inheritance** .........l...o...l.......

    Terry :D
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,676
    Good one Terry!!! Grin:

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • lhesslhess Member Posts: 379
    until I'm about 70 years old (when my mind is gone and I don't realize what I'm driving) and with what you pay for one of the ugly things, I hope you get a good bumper to bumper. Don't shop chrysler, hyundai, toyota or honda, and to correct my "misleading" statement on GM warranties, I'll retract it and simply say - GM is junk and you couldn't give me one right at the moment - warranty length aside. There you go, completely subjective and not one thing misleading about it.

    Mazda has 4 yr/ 50K miles and, for that reason, I just bought one.
  • audia8qaudia8q Member Posts: 3,138
    GM is junk and you couldn't give me one right at the moment

    Don't be so quick to dismiss Cadillac or GM....Cadillac has been consistantly in the top 10 of all the quality surveys for a while now (something mazda can't seem to do)...Some other GM div have been doing well in this area also. I've never been a GM guy but they offer some nice products right now...just because they don't offer anything you want isnt reason enough to make blanket statements that just arent true....
  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    GM has come a long way recently especially in their Cadillac Division.

    the length of a warranty has nothing to do with the quality of a car.
  • cadillacmikecadillacmike Member Posts: 543
    "$299-$599 dealer fee is what I have seen almost every Tampa Bay new car dealer I visited, when I bought my Subaru and I was shopping for another car. It wss usually put preprinted on their forms, very hard to even take a bite on. It is easier to get a price couple of hundreds down than take out that fee. It looks we live in different universe. "

    Bingo! 500 bucks at the local Cadillac dealer.

    But,,,, knowing it in advance, allows you to "adjust" your buy offer by the appropriate amount.
  • cadillacmikecadillacmike Member Posts: 543
    "mazda is 4 year 50K "

    When did they change this?? In 2001 it was 36 months, 50,000 miles, ewhich actually fit my wife's taxi service driving habit better.
  • stickguystickguy Member Posts: 53,360
    around 2002 they extended the years.

    2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.

  • asafonovasafonov Member Posts: 401
    The following saying is attributed to Mr. Rockefeller, I am quoting from memory: If you need to know the operating costs of a yacht, you cannot afford it!

    To stay on topic, substitute "car/vehicle" for yacht in the above.
  • asafonovasafonov Member Posts: 401
    What an appropriate forum handle you have :P
  • glasschimeglasschime Member Posts: 13
    This story appeared in the Cleveland Plain Dealer yesterday. No wonder GM is having so many problems. This doesn't help.

    http://www.cleveland.com/business/plaindealer/index.ssf?/base/business/1119519211262241.xm- l&coll=2
  • chuck1chuck1 Member Posts: 1,405
    And we wonder why most people would rather go to the dentist than participate in the car buying process........
  • cadillacmikecadillacmike Member Posts: 543
    After an agonizing several day meeting with Spain's Generalmisso Franco, regarding Germany's trying to get Spain to come into the war against Britain, Hitler noted that he would rather go to his dentist and have several teeth extracted than ever meet with Franco again.

    Spain stayed Neutral. We all know how Hitler ended up.

    And now MB is the largest selling (worldwide) luxury car brand ?!?!? (have to keep this on topic.)
This discussion has been closed.