Dealer's Tricks - bait & switch, etc.

thenebean

the manufacturers dont care what their dealers do - complaining to them about a bad experience will only allow you to vent, but the manufacturer will not punish them - the customers are the dealerships customers not toyota's

besides, the manufacturer has already made their money (the dealerships pay to get the cars they have, at a hefty mark-up from the manufacturer, and thats where the companies make their profit) whatever the dealer sells it for is of no interest to the manufacturer anyways...

just my 2 cents...

-thene

black_tulip

the manufacturers dont care what their dealers do

I disagree. If that was true, they (manufacturers) would not be insisting on surveys. The manufacturer does care how a dealer is treating its customers.I agree one complaint will not make a difference, but if enough complaints are received, the dealer's allocation could get reduced or in extreme cases, the dealer's license or franchise or whatever it is called, may even get revoked by the manufacturer.

So, yes, if you feel you have been wronged, by all means, send in a written complaint to the manufacturer.

rainycity4

I have interesting article at Seattle Times, about "Curbstoners" and I'd like to see your opinion on this.

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2002387550_curbstoner18m.html
(Credit goes to Seattle Times)

By the way, I'm a long-time lurker. :shades:

Brent

steine13

"But consumers who sidestep legitimate dealers are at greater risk of having no recourse if something goes wrong and of not getting proper paperwork, including title and registration, state officials said."

There's always people out there doing this sort of thing... and I won't buy from them, figuring it's not worth the hassle. Many times, those are cars that aren't "all there" and that the dealer does not want to sell from his lot, or take to the auction. So one of the salespeople poses as a private seller. Or maybe the car is good, and he's just trying to make a few extra bucks. I just don't think it's right to be in the business and pretend otherwise.

There's two things you can do: On the phone, say you're calling about "the ad" or at worst, "the car" and see how it goes. One call in five, I might get the old "which one", and then I usually know pretty quickly who I'm dealing with.
The other thing you can do is ask to see the title, and if you're not convinced, the seller's driver's license. If they're selling their aunt's cousin's stepmom's vehicle, you know what's going on.

The article, as usual, misses the point. "No recourse if something goes wrong" my fat behind -- why is that so important to people? What a nightmare having to wrangle over some defect in one's own car with the seller from six weeks ago.
Have the car checked out, and call it good.

You want "recourse", marry into the mafia or step up and buy new.

Buddy of mine just bought an '02 Prizm from a curbstoner. He liked the car (I didn't), it checked out and passed the mechanic's inspection, and the price was right. Way right.

At that point, I'd buy it from a clueless curbstoner as soon as I'd buy it from Terry.

-Mathias

steine13

...this business of "no more than 5 sales per calender year" is pretty silly.

It's none of the state's business how many cars I buy, title, insure, pay sales tax on [thank you very much], and then later sell. As long as all the proper steps are followed, I doubt that these laws would pass constitutional muster.

Sorry kid's, that's MY pursuit of happiness :-)

Of course, it's unlikely to come up for "normal" people, but if I were normal, I wouldn't be typing this.

For the record, I've never sold more than three cars in one calendar year. And if I'm lucky, I break even; I rarely if ever made money on the deal(s). Hard to do after the taxes and the fleas...

-Mathias

geo9

NY also has a 4 or 5 car per year limit on private sale of used cars.

Did you see the tv special a while back on Ca. curbstoners ?
Most were dealers or shady mileage turnbacks, salvage seller guys........

No wonder its so hard to sell a car yourself with all these shady
characters running around...........................

rroyce10

.. **No wonder its so hard to sell a car yourself** ....

News stories are just that - "the news" .. and if they don't give them a little Hollywood drama then they lose their viewers (just ask Dan Rather) ....

Curbstoners are few and far between, and most of the readership here knows what to look for ... ...... but what makes it hard to sell a vehicle is, most private sellers won't spend the extra $150/$300 to make it right, so the cars sit in their driveway with bad tires and ripped seats with a postcard for a "for sale" sign - and usually priced $1,000 over market value ....

Terry.

geo9

These curbstoners that were featured were 1 person "dealers" with
wholesale licenses and auction access. NOT real full line car dealers............

Sorry for any confusion !!!!!

rainycity4

Thanks to you all for putting in your dime. I always like to hear others' opinions and as usual, yours were spot-on.

Hey, yesterday I drove past a very old car (Looked like a Pinto) with extremely bad paint job, basically an empty shell. The price was PERFECT...It was hand-painted "FREE!" :P

Brent

graphicguy

If some of the experts could chime in....

I see these $350-$750 "for sale" cars parked in parking lots all the time. What I don't understand is why they just don't take these cars to Goodwill and donate them to get the tax deduction? It would have to be more beneficial than getting a few hundred dollars for them.

jbollt

"Not an expert" chiming in....perhaps these sellers don't have enough income to need a tax deduction?

imidazol97

But getting $500 cash in your pocket is much better than getting $500 off your total income. If you're in the lowest tax bracket that deduction might save you $0 because your standard deduction for a married couple is around $9000 now (I don't want to look it up). If you happen to meet that hurdle, the extran $500 deducti8on might save you $75 in taxes. Which would you prefer? $0-75 or $500 cash.

mark156

The deduction that you actually get is what the "organization" actually sells the vehicle for.

Also, a car donation can raise an "IRS" audit right quick. Not worth it....

Sell it, trade it, whatever.... the donation can open up a can of worms sometimes.

rroyce10

rroyce10

... **Also, a car donation can raise an "IRS" audit right quick. Not worth it....**

Excellent point ... you see paper ad's, billboards and commercials on TV about donating your car ... they go by straight wholesale, in the meantime 10/15 months later you get this little letter from the IRS for an audit .. your right, it ain't worth it ...

Terry.

imidazol97

You're right about the value. That changed last year I believe. No longer can you overstate the real value of the donation of a car with a blown motor, failed transmission, and 4 bald tires to retail value + $2000 and take the deduction which might have been better than the real cash you could have gotten for the car after paying a hook to take it to a junkyard. Hence the IRS audits.

Now I would assume the correct paperwork for what the car really sold for which would be usually under wholesale wouldn't raise an audit flag.

graphicguy

Now, I know why I come in here.

I would imagine it would be better to sell a "beater" than to deduct it.

To me, that's an awful lot of hassle (getting the cash, transferring titles, etc) for a few hundred dollars, though.

But, I'm not afraid of an IRS audit. Been through one and found the IRS owed me money.

If the deduction is legitimate, I'm taking it, regardless of whether they want to put it under a microscope or not.

bobst

We sold our 1994 Nissan Altima with 140K miles by putting it in our driveway with a For Sale sign on it. Someone came by with the cash and drove the car away, simple as that.

Maybe it is easy to sell cheap cars.

bobst

mirth

The real issue is that the tax law now requires you to deduct for the actual amount that the charity got for the car. If they sent it to a wholesaler, that's not going to be much. But some charities have adapted by selling the car to individuals and getting more money. The ones that do this usually trumpet it to everyone to try and get the cars.

IMHO, this was a lousy move by the IRS. It hurt charities doing good work and discouraged good behaviour in others.

canukchick

Hi - I'm new here.

I'm looking to buy a used Outback and there is one for sale at a Saturn dealer.... which is apparently no-haggle even on their used cars. I think their car is way overpriced, but it is nice.

Has anyone had a positive experience trying to negotiate with a "no-haggle" dealer?

Thanks!

qbrozen

Not me.
I wanted to buy a particular used car from a particular used car chain. As soon as I started talking price, they informed me they are a "no haggle" dealership. I informed them that their price on this car was $2500 higher than anywhere else and $3500 higher than a true fair buying price. They didn't care and let me walk. Oh well. Wound up finding a cleaner one with half the miles AND a year younger for $500 less than they were asking on their car. Go figure.

thenebean

if they are no haggle, there's no haggling, so dont even bother trying. they let you haggle, then they have to let everyone else haggle...and then there goes the whole no haggle thing!

what is the price of the car, and what do you want to pay. ask terry over in real world trade in values and he'll let you know if they are asking a fair price!

-thene

qbrozen

Ah, but even some Saturn dealers will deal.
So just because they say it doesn't mean its written in stone. Kinda like when a place has a "going out of business" sale every 6 months. LOL.
I figure it can't hurt to make an offer. If they say no, then move on. Nothing lost (well, aside from them losing your business).

canukchick

Yeah I figure it's worth a shot, I'm going to call him and see if he'll talk on price, I don't want to go all the way down there and waste the time of both of us if they absolutely will not.

Thanks for the advice thenebean - I did post on the real-world trade-in values, but not sure if he'll know about pricing in Canada?

thenebean

maybe not so much pricing in canada, but an overall value of the vehicle will help you - its always worth a shot i think - you never know if you dont ask!

good luck!

-thene

cadillacmike

"I see these $350-$750 "for sale" cars parked in parking lots all the time. What I don't understand is why they just don't take these cars to Goodwill and donate them to get the tax deduction? It would have to be more beneficial than getting a few hundred dollars for them. "

That would presume that the seller itemizes on their taxes (or even files taxes at all).

spettro

Hi,

In early June we put down a deposit (credit card) as the dealer misled us to believe that he was going to get our car very quickly. Of course he now denies that.
The first week he offered us a car of the right color but different model claiming that the only difference was the sunroof. Not true. We turned it down and waited..

For the past few weeks he's been telling us how he would be getting the right color and model soon. As it turns out the car should be here in about a week but it has some optionals and this car costs an additional $500. He offered us $100-200 discount for our trouble.

We are not pleased with this deal but agreed to at least go see the car when it arrives. Our deposit is non-refundable and there is no time limit on the contract per se. However, we have now been waiting for over 6 weeks. If we turn down this car on grounds that it is more expensive than agreed on the contract can we get our money back? Or do we have to wait until he finds one? What is considered a reasonable waiting period?

I have a strong feeling that this dealer is going to give us a hard time about refunding oury money in an effort to make us take a car we do not want.
Any suggestions? I was thinking about possibly contacting the corporate offices and/or consumer affairs.
I appreciate any advice.
Thanks

mikefm58

Aren't all of your questions covered in the contract you signed? IMHO 6 weeks is more than enough time to give the dealer. I'd cancel the contract in polite but firm words with the dealer. If he insists, tell him to go pound salt and dispute the credit card charge.

ifyoubuildit

Doesn't sound like a dealer I'd like much to do business with.... good luck.

stewart32

Spettro,

If it is any solace, we are in a similar situation. While my wife remains optimistic, I am curious to see how the deal will play out as we are supposed to take delivery in early August. I will be happy to share experience/advice gleaned with you.

lhess

anyone feel bad, but why in the world would you put down a deposit for a car? I can understand giving a deposit on a one of a kind car that is being built just for you, but just a car that you're likely to find on any new or used lot? I've had dealers tell me that they can find ABC car for me with the exact options I want and they only need $500 to get started. Forget that. I even asked one dealer to fax me a copy of the contract that went along with the deposit and He says "What do you mean - contract? We don't use a contract." Oh, so I'm supposed to hand Joe [non-permissible content removed] car dealer $500 with no terms on how I can get it returned or what they do with it even if I buy. Time to switch dealers. And, for the ones who do use a contract, I'm sure it's written to the dealer's advantage should anything go wrong.

MY RULE - NO DEPOSITS!

thenebean

no deposit, no vehicle - we cant hold a car just on promise - if you want us to locate a car, and dont give us any money, whats preventing you from running off, after we've spent time and effort to go get a car?

that being said, we DO give contracts (handwritten and signed by the manager) with every deposit. but if you dont want to leave a deposit, come back and fill everything out when you are ready to take home the car that day - otherwise, tough luck!

-thene

isellhondas

Most places wouldn't sell you a car without a deposit. I take deposits all of the time and I've NEVER had a person complain.

And I've never jacked a person around like that poster talked about either. I keep in constant communication with my customers who are waiting for their cars.

NO DEPOSIT ? NO PROBLEM but I won't hold the car for you either. If someone else is willing to put a deposit on it they will be the person who gets it when it comes in!

rroyce10

..... No dealer (with a lick of sense) is going to hold a vehicle ... contract is signed and copys given and a deposit is taken ......

MY RULE: no ticky -- no washy ... simple.



Terry.

toyotaken

I will agree to a deal on a vehicle in stock with a customer that I've dealt with before or I have gotten to know during the sales process over a handshake on a rare occasion. However, this is when we're getting copies of driver's licenses, registrations, etc and a signed buyer's agreement as well.

If you're not willing to put a couple of hundred dollars up as a deposit whether you're looking at a $5000 used car or a $60,000 landcruiser, I don't think that you're looking to actually purchase the vehicle. Maybe get a quote to shop around, sure, but not actually purchase at that time.

The other question I get is "Can I put a deposit down to "hold" this vehicle?" My answer to that is no as well. I take deposits from someone who wishes to purchase a vehicle. If you're interested, go ahead and purchase it. If you're not sure, that's fine but if there's someone who does know they want it, that person has first crack. That's the way it works. If it's meant to be, it will be, if it wasn't then it won't.

Just my $.02

Ken

bolivar

No one seem to want to say that deposits are seldom 'non-refundable'. The law doesn't like it when someone gets money for nothing.

Demand your deposit back. Immediately. With your dealer's previous history, you will probably get the story about 'the only person that can draft a check is in Iraqi. It may be a few days before you can get your deposit back.' Since it was on a credit card, they can send a credit to you care thru as easy as the original charge.

lhess

disadvantage in the car-buying process is that the one car that caught your eye and had the options you want is not the only one in existence. There are probably hundreds of vehicles in the right colors and with the options you want out there for the buying. Very rarely does someone have their heart set on such an exclusive vehicle that you're very limited on where you can buy it.

I would never ask a dealer to "hold" a vehicle that I was undecided on. Not fair to the dealer. If a dealer had the exact car I wanted, I knew I was going to buy it, knew how the deposit factored into the deal, and I couldn't get on the lot for 3 days, yes, I would give a deposit. However, I was in a similar situation with a car about 3 years ago, called the day before I could pick it up to see if they still had it, told them I was on the way to pick it up and no deposit was needed. If I hadn't shown by the time I told them the next day, sell it to someone else. Fair enough.

BUT, I will not give a deposit for a dealer to go out and try to find the car I want. That seems to be the case here. Just like with this poster, what happens if the dealer can't find the exact car you want? And, I know from working with dealers, you can tell them bright red with black leather interior and they'll call you on baby blue with tan cloth. AND, be shocked that you don't want it!! Then you get into the old "Sure we can refund your deposit, but, Susie, who works upstairs only works three days a week, she's off for the next month, and when she gets back, things will be so backed up that it'll take her another month to get around to writing YOUR check. Oh, and did I mention, her mom is really sick and some days she has to leave early. So....."

mirth

I've done deposits on the last two cars I've bought, and both were dealer trades. On the first one, the dealer couldn't get the car I wanted so I ended up buying from a competitor farther away. They gave me my deposit back with no trouble. On the more recent one, they couldn't find the car I wanted in the color I wanted and let me know, so I agreed to take a different color.

Dealers usually have to put a fair amount of work into a dealer trade - repeated calls to the other dealer(s), working out the terms of the trade, and arranging for someone to go get it. I think it's reasonable to ask for a deposit before they put this work in.

toyotaken

Now that's reasonable and understanding. At the same time, when the vehicle gets to your dealer, none of the final paperwork should be signed until you give the vehicle a full inspection to make sure it has the equipment as agreed and doesn't have any damage. But barring this, for the work and expense that goes into trading for a vehicle, a deposit is just reasonable.

Ken

spettro

Thank you all for the advice.
The dealer called me Wednesday to let me know that the car was going to be here today at 10 am (the car that cost about $500 more). He called me again today (at work) to ask me when I was going to come in to see it. He also added that I should come in as early as possible as it is going to take him a few hours to get the car ready for delivery. Already he is acting like I have to take this car.

An hour later I received a call from my wife to let me know that the dealer called and told her that he spoke to me and that he is getting the car cleaned up so that we can take it home. He also gave her the VIN number and asked her to fax a copy of the temporary insurance.

I told my wife not to give him anything. We'll go see him later today and I'll let you guys know how this works out. By the way, I am only going to take the car if he gives it to me for the exact same price we had on the contract.

Thanks again for the suggestions and support.

kyfdx

I'm not a dealer... but, I think I would have shown you the door...

He got the car that you asked him to get.... and yet, you feel no obligation to go through with the deal..

Now we can all see why dealers ask for a deposit..

regards,
kyfdx

jbollt

My dealers have always stated that a dealer trade will cost me more than one on the lot...so I hav e paid extra for that exact car...only once, i believe

spettro

Kyfdx,

I think you are misunderstanding the situation. The dealer had me wait for 7 weeks for my car and is now trying to sell me a more expensive car. Had he found me the car I want for the price we agreed I would have no problem.

kyfdx

I think I understand..

Do you think if you had given him a deposit, and the feeling that you were committed to buying.. that he might have worked a little harder to find your car?

I do..

stewart32

Spettro,

I would insist on the terms of the original agreement. But if the dealer is dead set on the "more expensive" model, tell him you will be happy to take delivery for the original price as agreed.

spettro

I did give him a deposit. I also want the car..
However, I do not think I should pay more than I agreed to especially when he had me wait for 7 weeks.

danf1

Why not just ask the dealer to split the price difference with you and move on with life? It is the car you want. Whatever is on it that you didn't originally want may become one of your favorite features soon. Did you not want the extra whatever just because you didn't want to pay for it?

You seem to be agonizing over this situation. If you do not buy this particular car then you have to start over again. Is it really worth all of this aggravation?

kyfdx

I'm sorry... you are right.. I am mistaken...

Maybe it is the 100+ discussions to which I subscribe... I lose track..

regards,
kyfdx

spettro

No problem.

I also just realized that you are the one who originally told me to dispute the charge on my deposit on the news and views forum.
I appreciate your honesty.

regards,