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Dealer's Tricks - bait & switch, etc.

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Comments

  • user777user777 Member Posts: 3,341
    what's wrong with expecting the dealer attempting to secure the trade to be upfront and tell the buyer what happened, then make it really worth the buyer's inconvenience to work another deal on very agreable terms? that kind of customer focus surely results in subsequent sales to others and establishes a good rep.

    not doing so instills the exact opposite right?
  • jtciiijtciii Member Posts: 11
    "FYI: Newer models won't have a record in Carfax.... It takes a while. Especially if the car is new and has not been retailed. Of course there won't be any records, because the car hasn't been registered with the state! Go to any new car lot and put one of the VINs in Carfax and you'll see what I mean.....

    I thought about that- I checked like 5 different new cars- all were available in Carfax. It looks like the shipping companies report to Carfax.
  • jtciiijtciii Member Posts: 11
    It was definitely a contract- right down to the fine print that states those reasons that the dealer can void the contract- the buyer falsifying information about their credit, or the car they are trading or their ability to pay. This contract spends plenty of text explaining the 33% of the price of the car the dealer can sue me for in arbitration, the penalties for not picking up the car, etc.

    If it was not a contract I'm sure that they would have said- "Too bad, no car." by now.

    The contract doesn't make any difference about the dealer fraud. They advertised a car they had no intention of selling, for the purpose of drawing in customers My state code is clear about this-


    (a) No statement or illustration should be used in any advertisement which creates a false impression of the grade, quality, make, value, currency of model, size, color, usability, or origin of the product offered, or which may otherwise misrepresent the product in such a manner that later, on disclosure of the true facts, the purchaser may be switched from the advertised product to another.

    (b) Even though the true facts are subsequently made known to the buyer, the law is violated if the first contact or interview is secured by deception. [Guide 2]
  • geo9geo9 Member Posts: 735
    I have done the dealer wants a signed contract UPFRONT !
    All based on their ability to get the car from another dealer.

    They appraise my trade and make the deal and want a deposit.
    If they can't get the car.........I get my money BACK..........

    I know from experience this is how it works.................

    NO dealer in their right mind is gonna do a dealer swap on a "say-so"!

    SURE.......if they can't get it they will TRY and sell you something they
    have in stock! That makes sense...............

    I am sure they had the "bait" car advertised. You can be sure they had it
    and somebody else snapped it up !
    Most dealers aren't foolish....They have PROOF they HAD that car........
    Sadly somebody bought it before you did. They WILL have proof of that also.

    If you think they were trying to cheat you.............RUN DON'T WALK !
    Its better for your piece of mind...Not to mention your blood pressure ! :sick:
  • jtciiijtciii Member Posts: 11
    Hers the thing- I was already trying to get the car when they sent an advertisement for the car I wanted. The sales manager told me that they could get the car, from a dealer xx miles away.

    They advertised a car they could not sell. This is a crime. This is defined by state code, and by the Federal Trade Commission. I have no doubt that I will get my money back. What I want is the deal I gave up from another dealer.
  • user777user777 Member Posts: 3,341
    i think legally, all you are entitled to will be damages, which you'd have to prove. so you have a contract...how are you going to enforce it? isn't this so convenient for the dealership that it is monetarily prohibitive for you to seek damages if they fail to perform?
  • jtciiijtciii Member Posts: 11
    I'll take my pound of flesh. Ideally bad publicity and a citation by the state's attorney.

    They broke the state code six different ways in the e-mails they sent me; advertising a car they didn't have, encouraging me to purchase a more expensive model, disparageing the model I wanted to buy, accepting a deposit for a product then switching to a more expensive product, failure to deliver in a reasonable amount of time.

    OK five- but I can prove them all.
  • user777user777 Member Posts: 3,341
    what constitues success and a happy resolution to the issue you face? will sticking it to them make the ultimate outcome a positive one for you?

    i wish you much peace.
  • dino001dino001 Member Posts: 6,191
    From reading your story I am not really sure what is you are expecting to achieve right now. Obviously car is gone and not coming back. Obviously they screwed up, perhaps on purpose, perhaps not. Does it matter now? Only if you want to "get rich" of the situation.

    You say you "just want your car", but it looks more like what you really want is to start some kind of a crusade or a personal vendetta. Fine with me, but just think if it worth your time. My advice: unless you have plenty of time on your hands, just move on. I know you have rights, I know you feel hurt and deceived, probably rightfully so and I know you would rather see them punished. However, a campaign may cost you even more than a potential gain. Perhaps you should rather preserve your energy and find a worthy substitute. It is just a Focus, for God's sake, not a Bentley!

    2018 430i Gran Coupe

  • jb_turnerjb_turner Member Posts: 702
    OK what are you going to do now? What would you like at this point? I still question again that we are not hearing the whole story.
  • bretfrazbretfraz Member Posts: 2,021
    Going after the dealer on your own time and dime is not worth it. A attorney specializing in consumer fraud will cost big bucks. The dealer already has an attorney on retainer so he is locked and loaded. Where's the wienie in this situation? And all this over a Ford Focus?

    I can see the t-shirt now - I sued a car dealer and all I got were these lousy floor mats
  • jtciiijtciii Member Posts: 11
    I'm not all that angry- but the dealer is still telling me that the car is available. What I want is for them to honor the deal they offered. If the car isn't available, I'm happy to take a like vehicle (new passenger car) for the same price. This isn't rocket science. They padded the contract I signed, by a several hundred dollars ("shipping charges" beyond the normal delivery charge and they included the title and tags on the hand written copy, but the contract has n/a in the space for title and reg- my mistake, I accept that). That more than covers the difference in invoice price between a 2005 and 2006 model.I want to believe that they acted in good faith (not really), and they have the opportunity to make good. Barring that, I will contact the BBB and the states attorney. I will post their name here, and on every other post I can find as a disreputable business. I will call the radio personality that was affiliated with them for years and complain on his program. I will eventually get bored, but I will cost them more business than it would have been worth to them to honor the original deal. If I had purchased another car, and wanted to void the deal, how understanding would they have been?
  • mirthmirth Member Posts: 1,212
    ...just take your money and buy elsewhere? Why would you purchase from a place that you believe has treated you so poorly?
  • user777user777 Member Posts: 3,341
    Does FORD have a customer survey you're supposed to fill out as part of your new purchase? If so, I suspect they WILL NOT sell you a vehicle, and are just toying with you. Why would they want you to buy a vehicle from them, when you are going to slam them on the survey?

    If it were me, I'd consider myself better educated and move along, buying from a dealership that doesn't jerk you around.

    You want your new car purchase untainted by this experience right? If so, you got to mentally move on.
  • audia8qaudia8q Member Posts: 3,138
    wow...I can't imagine why anyone would want to reward such a dealer with a sale....but I also feel the dealer has a very different view of this transaction.

    perhaps the poster could ask the dealer to jump on here and tell their side of the story. This way we can come to a fair conclusion...

    the poster keeps mentioning a contract.....is that a buyers order or finance contract? If it's a buyers order I suspect there is a fine print clause concerning factory orders and swaps. Our buyers orders spell out specifics about "delivery"...

    example....."...I understand this order covers a new motor vehicle subject to your ability to get delivery from your manufacturer, distributor or other dealers. I agree to pay any price increase made by the mfg or dist at any time before delivery, blah, blah, blah..."

    ..." I understand this order is for a new motor vehicle which you do not have in stock at the time of the order. If the dealer is unable to procure such motor vehicle within 90 days from delivery date specified on this order, than I may cancel such order...blah, blah
  • nortsr1nortsr1 Member Posts: 1,060
    Sounds to me that you are absolutely certain the dealer comitted FRAUD. If you are so darn sure, why bother posting anymore in this forum and get an attorney. Pay him big bucks and see what happens. You still insist on dealing with this dealer, yet????? Move on, get a life!!!
  • typhon1991typhon1991 Member Posts: 64
    jtciii what state is this dealership in? You signed a contract that said that the dealer can sue you for 33% of the cost of the car if they trade for it and you don't take delivery? I've been selling for almost 10 years and never heard of that before.
    Mike
  • typhon1991typhon1991 Member Posts: 64
    I will go and get a trade on a say-so as long as it is not a mutant vehicle. Usually we will take a small deposit as earnst money but have never heard of a contract like that before.
  • bdr127bdr127 Member Posts: 950
    Sounds to me that you are absolutely certain the dealer comitted FRAUD. If you are so darn sure, why bother posting anymore in this forum and get an attorney. Pay him big bucks and see what happens. You still insist on dealing with this dealer, yet????? Move on, get a life!!!

    Agreed.... If you are going to sue, then just go and do it. Why are you still telling us you're going to?
  • geo9geo9 Member Posts: 735
    To save hassle I use the automakers site. This enables me to locate the
    car ahead of time. Most show a dealers running inventory.................

    YES.......Some dealers WILL charge a fee for a "locate deal" vehicle.
    Although I have never paid a fee. But the vehicle is not 3 hours away
    either !

    Yet again I see dealer stories from a "flake" wanting a oddball vehicle
    trucked in from a dealer 300 miles away. Then refusing to buy because
    of the 305 miles that are now on that car or they changed their mind or
    that lilac purple color don't look so good in person.................

    JTC...........I am sure there is some "legaleaze" or loophole in the
    contract or buyers order for dealer swap problems.................

    Chalk it up to experience...........................
  • jb_turnerjb_turner Member Posts: 702
    I agree with user777.. You are not worth a sale to that dealer because they dont want to risk the CSI. So tell us the WHOLE story.
  • jtciiijtciii Member Posts: 11
    I'm sure that all I'll get out of this is experience, but here's what gets me- This dealer acted in violation of the law. Do they just get to do this because we all expect it of them? If I run a stop sign, shouldn't I get a ticket? Granted- maybe I run 100 stop signs, and only get one ticket, but don't I deserve it? I find it hard to believe that they can act in violation of the law, and never have to answer for it.
  • 2cre8tiv2cre8tiv Member Posts: 1
    I am wondering what is reasonable for a doc fee. Is it based on the price of the car? I understand that it can be a place for the dealer to profit, and am trying to become educated so that I can negotiate the total price of the car. I live in Nevada - I am assuming that my state does not limit doc fees like some states, such as California. I was quoted $400 doc fee for a car that was priced at @$28,400. There is still some negotiation to be done on the car, and I would like to know if I can negotiate on the doc fee as well. Any education on this area would be helpful.
  • typhon1991typhon1991 Member Posts: 64
    doc fees have nothing to do with the price of the car.It is a flat fee usually preprinted on the buyers order. You think $400 is bad on a 28k car, you ought to try it on a 2k wholesale car. This money goes straight to the dealer principal. Very rarely will it be waved because the manager has to face the owner about it. Usually the salesmen loses gross if the customer bawkes too much and they charge the doc against the gross. and the owner reaps the benifits
  • geo9geo9 Member Posts: 735
    Thank God........NY limits DOC fee at $45 !
  • geo9geo9 Member Posts: 735
    JTC........NOT calling you a flake btw.!
  • jpvwaudijpvwaudi Member Posts: 139
    A customer like that is like getting invited to a wedding with a cash bar. Congrats, but no thanks.
  • austruaustru Member Posts: 14
    Doc fees can very depending on dealer to dealer state to state. There mostly non-negotiable. These fees normally cover things as prepration of paperwork, state inspection, and temporary plates(again it varies state to state) some dealers use this as as profit centers, most seem to use it just to cover added cost that arise out of doing business such as paying a recon crew etc. Shop around to a couple of dealerships in your area to get a gauge of what they're charging and that should give you an idea of what the going rate is.
  • w9cww9cw Member Posts: 888
    Typical doc fees from reputable dealers are in the range of $35 to $70. Anything more than that are a rip off, plain and simple. I used to work at a new car dealer that charged a $35 doc fee and that hadn't changed in over a decade.
  • manamalmanamal Member Posts: 426
    I think you are mistaken. There is no such thing as 'national' typical doc fees. Doc fees very by region. In Virginia, they are typically 300-500 dollars. In Maryland, they max out at $99. So, why buy a car in VA, when MD is only 10 miles further? Well the out the door cost is the same.
  • rroyce10rroyce10 Member Posts: 9,332
    ... **Latest- The sticker for the original car (that they said was no longer available) has a VIN number with no record in Carfax. It appears to be a made up number.**

    It's a new untitled vehicle with an MSO and no registration .. so nothing will show - no history.!

    Terry
  • rroyce10rroyce10 Member Posts: 9,332
    .... **They advertised a car they could not sell. This is a crime. This is defined by state code, and by the Federal Trade Commission. I have no doubt that I will get my money back. What I want is the deal I gave up from another dealer** ...

    This was a dealer trade, not a vehicle in the dealers inventory .... there is no such thing as a "crime" here .. your expectations were high and unfortunately they couldn't produce the vehicle and your feelings got hurt, I understand that - it's a human thing ......... as far as the FTC, state codes, the CIA, Home Depot and the AARP, it's meaningless ...... get your money back, then buy an 06, or check with some other dealers, or buy a used car or get Tiger Woods autograph - whatever .... but move on.



    Terry ;)
  • dino001dino001 Member Posts: 6,191
    Typical doc fees from reputable dealers are in the range of $35 to $70.

    Not in Florida, they are not. I have seen some as high as $599, with usisal range from $200 to $300. Of course at $35-70 you may say it is a real "reimbursement" of the dealer for their efforts to register your car, anything bigger than that is pure added profit (even sales tax is paid on that amount so it has nothing to do with government as some salesmen tried to tell me in the past, when I was a new kid in town).

    Apparently Floriday law allows them to charge whatever they like to and they use it big time. It lets them advertise lowball price offers with usual "plus tax, title, registration and fees". The frustrating part is that it varies so much that it makes competitive comparison very difficult. You still need to come and face them (or at best ask for faxed offer, but not all of them are co cooperative). Another way to get you in and "seal the deal" before you can make really informed decision.

    All that advice "refuse to pay" is completely impractical. It should be more like "ask in advance how much it is and adjust for it mentally when negotiating".

    2018 430i Gran Coupe

  • jtciiijtciii Member Posts: 11
    "This was a dealer trade, not a vehicle in the dealers inventory"

    Sec238.3 (c) of the Code of Federal Regulations states- (c) The failure to have available at all outlets listed in the advertisement a sufficient quantity of the advertised product to meet reasonably anticipated demands, unless the advertisement clearly and adequately discloses that supply is limited and/or the merchandise is available only at designated outlets
    link title

    My state code defers to this definition. There is no point in suing, as I cannot prove damages. Purchasing an 06 model will cost me an additional $4k, because I will not get the same incentives that I purchased this car under. I purchased a car under a deal that was offered to me, I'm not trying to scam the dealer. The dealer didn't accidentally publish the wrong price, or sell the one car in stock they had at this price. They advertised this price (11K) after my initial contact, and I have a stream of e-mail that backs me up.
  • austruaustru Member Posts: 14
    No offense but that seems a little low NY set the cap at $45 but they also made it easier for what the state requires for paper work and registration, it's easier than in most New England states. The going rate for New England seems to be about $150, except NY. I know a dealer in Maine who charges almost a grand so as I said in my previous post check out a few dealerships and get a gauge of what is going on in your region, you'll find out real quick whos using it for profit and who's using it for legit things. Also ask your dealer, whenever my customers ask me I give them the full break down of what's included(state inspection,temp plates,which while convenient are expensive). While this is common knowledge by now if you don't like the dealer, there's a lot out there find one you like and go from there. Good luck! :shades:
  • nortsr1nortsr1 Member Posts: 1,060
    dino... I live in Florida and find your reply very true.The bottom line is to get and OTD price and forget the fee part. In my quest for my latest vehicle I have had several Email responses and none every quote the doc fee...and then...when I email back requesting same, some answer and some do not respond; however, I did have a dealership in Orlando send me an itemized list from the MSRP,Employee discount price, tax, title and tag fee and any options price that I requested for a final out the door price and "NO other Fees". I then called the salesperson with my printed out Email from him to go over everything and found out that this particular dealership "never" has any hiidden doc fees ( except for the "actual" Florida Tax, Title fee and Tag fee!
    But like you said previously, "Ask in advance"!!!!
  • Kirstie_HKirstie_H Administrator Posts: 11,242
    Let's relax, please - no need to shout at each other. If you don't like another member's posts, please simply skip them. There's no obligation to respond.

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  • asafonovasafonov Member Posts: 401
    I understand your frustration, and would by frustrated if I were in your shoes. However, without an attorney going over the contract and local and federal statutes, it may be premature to decide whether or not a law or laws were broken. I am not a lawyer, and I understand you are not either. OTOH, I would be fairly certain that virtually any dealership would have legal people go over all its contracts with a fine-tooth comb and, if needed, insert small print needed to take care of law compliance. Again, I have not seen the contract and would have been of little help if I did. However, I believe that while it appears the dealership certainly acted unethically, it may have been within the letter of the law - people are aware of their rights, and it is just too expensive for dealerships to participate in litigation. Good luck to you, whatever you decide to do.
  • austruaustru Member Posts: 14
    Quick question for you. You mentioned that they had a vehicle their trying to do a dealer trade for you on. Your also saying that the vehicle they had advertised is no longer available. I'm not defending them but I work in a dealership in this does pop up every so often in a lot of cases we send out our ads on weds so they appear in the papers for the weekend, but by the time they actually get to the press the vehicle has been sold, it's crappy but it does happen. I don't understand why your upset, it one post you say their trying to help you and do right by you as a customer, in the next your claiming that you want to sue? I've never heard of a purchase order with the provisions that you mentioned. As I said in another post if you feel uncomfortable, WALK. Remember if this is a binding contract and they made a mistake our they were trying to cheat you I highly doubt they'll even call their attorney. I know with Focuses (focii?) are hard to come by right now with gas prices right now, and they have been selling out left and right, just a suggestion maybe look at a Corolla or a Civic. Just a thought I hope it works out for you.
  • asafonovasafonov Member Posts: 401
    Because of this dealer crime, or unethical behaviour, or mistake, whatever it is, you lost the opportunity to buy a new compact domestic car. While nice cars, they depreciate steeply, and perhaps this is a sign from above for you to buy a gently used vehicle, or, if buying new, get something that may last longer and have better resale. There is a number of "Best Used Car Bets" threads and Edmunds articles on this site...
  • martianmartian Member Posts: 220
    Dealers here advertise lowball pricing in newspaper ads, and the adss show pricng like this:
    NEW SUBARU : $7999.00!
    -Trade-In or Cash-$5000.00
    -Dealer Discount-$2000.00
    -Subaru cash- $1000.00
    -Factory Incentive $1000.00
    "Honest Ernie" Discount-$1000.00
    Down Payment: $2000.00
    (Fine print) Trade is assumed value of car, otherwise cash amount.
    Yeah, you CAN buy a new Subarau for $7999.00..and if you belive that one, I've bridge in Brooklyn to sell you!
  • jtciiijtciii Member Posts: 11
    This is a tough board. I get why the folks in the industry are here- but all of you that aren't in the auto biz- What are you doing here? Venting on guys like me? I came here hoping for and opinion, and immediately get people jumping on me, saying I don't know what I'm talking about, I must not be telling the whole story, etc.

    I'll let the state's attorney handle it. After that I'll set up a site, and post a link here, showing the e-mail traffic, the advertisments, etc.

    Thaks to some for the help,
  • geo9geo9 Member Posts: 735
    Use caution about setting up a "vendetta" website against that dealer.

    They could sue YOU !!!!!!!!!!!!!

    They have attorneys on retainer. You have to PAY for one.........
    Its no skin off their nose anyhoo...........

    Its NOT worth the hassle......................

    Even if you got the Atty. General, BBB, etc on their case it still would be
    YOUR free time and hassle filing a complaint, going to court, taking DAYS
    off work etc. etc............................
    How much is that worth?
  • user777user777 Member Posts: 3,341
    i'm not in the biz and i think these guys are pounding on you pretty hard, but they don't like the same story told over and over. i think they like to grind new stuff. ;)

    personally, i thought you shouldn't waste your energy because of the amount of effort and cost to gain some legal satisfaction, and that satisfaction is bounded by your damages which you have to prove... unless you just want to force them to jump through some hurdles and suffer a blip in their reputation with some negative press...

    i thought you'd be doing yourself favor long-term if you mentally found a way to move past the experience - perhaps go to a different dealer to purchase the vehicle where your experience would be different because you are aware of what may happen with a dealer trade.

    and if they do have CSI scoring, like I said and another poster alluded to, they probably wouldn't want to sell to you now anyway because they know you are going to ding them hard. you can't force them to sell you a car, but you can try real hard...and they might find that amusing in a twisted way.

    i like the poster's suggestion that you consider this a sign you should be buying another vehicle all together. nothing against the ford ocus, but that depreciation angle may be something you might wish to consider.

    regards.
  • robviarobvia Member Posts: 19
    Wow, lots of responses since yesterday. To clear up a point made, the fleet manager I am working with is also the internet specialist. So there is nothing wrong with going into a dealer, asking who the fleet manager is, and introducing yourself to him. If the fleet manager won't sell you a single, the worst they'll do is turn you over to an "internet specialist" which to me is just a fancy term for a sales person. But I think a fleet manager will sell a single, because there is no way I'll do the haggle/wait/turn over thing. If the fleet manager had done that with me last week, I would have said no, I won't do it, and asked for someone high up or walked out. But lucky for me, he was very nice and built the car for me on the spot.

    In my case, I've got a printout and the numbers match Edmunds. But there's a couple South Florida fees on the paper I don't know what they are. There is also a $500 rebate not on the paper yet. So I don't think you can get exact numbers until you fill out a contract.

    We'll find out this Saturday when I go back and do it for real.
  • mark156mark156 Member Posts: 1,915
    jtciii, I am not in the car business but I really enjoy reading these stories; that's why "I'm" here.

    You said in a previous post that the dealer was going to work with you.... what are they doing?

    You also said you have been told you are not telling the whole story, well, that's true in that there are 3 sides to a story.... yours, their's and the truth (as Terry says).

    I was in the retail business for a long time and I can tell you that customers vary widely with different expectations. One thing I know for sure, is the customer is NOT always right.

    We called those the "lunatic fringe". There are just those customers that can never be pleased at all no matter what you do! I'm not saying you are one of those as I think you have a legitimate gripe.

    Good luck and keep us posted on the outcome.

    Mark
    2010 Land Rover LR4, 2013 Honda CR-V, 2009 Bentley GTC, 1990 MB 500SL, 2001 MB S500, 2007 Lincoln TC, 1964 RR Silver Cloud III, 1995 MB E320 Cab., 2015 Prevost Liberty Coach
  • bobstbobst Member Posts: 1,776
    If jtciii posts again, I could threaten to tell him about my experience trying to get two extra keys for our new Honda. Or would that be cruel and unusual punishment?
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    For the rest of us, yes it would be. :P
  • kyfdxkyfdx Moderator Posts: 265,650
    Ditto... :P

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  • austruaustru Member Posts: 14
    I everything works out for you but I do have one question, what exactly are you hoping to accomplish?
This discussion has been closed.