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High Performance Luxury Sedans

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Comments

  • bhill2bhill2 Member Posts: 2,466
    Sorry for the slang. A driver on a side street forgot there was a stop sign and pulled DIRECTLY out in front of me when I was going about 45 with my wife beside me. Our Jag (XK8) was totalled, but we both opened our doors and walked away. This impressed us enough to go get another. I hope you enjoy Ray, I find him great fun to talk to.

    2009 BMW 335i, 2003 Corvette cnv. (RIP 2001 Jaguar XK8 cnv and 1985 MB 380SE [the best of the lot])

  • wencaowencao Member Posts: 52
    Just placed a bigger engine into 5-series and E series ? I do agree they are the best sports sedan on market,and demand is so strong. Do you know Chrysler will build its 5.7L hemi power 300N/convertable in 2004, the Hemi V8 engine has the same power as MB's 5.5L AMG V8, 353hp, big torque 393pound/foot at 4000rpm. If DC put the same tranny of E55 into hemi 300, I expect the same performance as E55. However, Chrysler only ask for no more than $40K, half price of E55, M5.
    I agree E55 and M5 are superior in quality and refinement, but are they worth 100% primium ? With stock market buble burst, so does this forum.
  • wencaowencao Member Posts: 52
    Both the next generation Intrepid and Concorde will be rear wheel drive! While they will continue to be primarily V6 powered, using revised versions of the 2.7, 3.0 and 3.5 liter engines, Chrysler's hot new 5.7 liter, all aluminum HEMI V8 will be available as an option on both models.

    The cars will incorporate systems and components from Mercedes Benz, including: transmissions, steering columns, seat frames and axles. They will also be the first Chryslers to share electronic architecture with MB products.

    The LX cars will have a wheelbase four inches longer then the current LH cars but the overall length will be reduced by over a foot. Both width and height will be unchanged. Wheels will probably be in the 20-inch range and they will ride on wider tires.
  • 4426444264 Member Posts: 67
    What happens in 3 year's time is anyone's guest but I'm sure BMW & MB will have even more powerful sedans then.

    One thing for sure, Daimler Chrysler isn't going to shoot its own foot by offer a model as good as its best sports sedan at half the price. You don't see Ford doing it to Jaguar, and Daimler Chrysler won't do the same to MB.
  • wencaowencao Member Posts: 52
    Yes. DC may improve E55 will even better engine or drop a 4-speed to Hemi 300N. I hope they do the first thing.
  • wencaowencao Member Posts: 52
    Chrysler made supercars, the 300 series, many years before BMW. The "300F special" cars are among the most valuable postwar collection cars.
  • wencaowencao Member Posts: 52
    but 300N maybe among the best $$$/performance car. That is what I care about. Consider similar powered S600 costs $120K. Do you think those toys(like massage seats) on S600 worth $80K more ? Of course rich people want to buy the high priced to show off. Most guys want to buy best price/performance car.
  • mmcbride1mmcbride1 Member Posts: 861
    Well said.
  • wencaowencao Member Posts: 52
    it is the 300N, based on info available now, if DC put the same tranny in E55 to the 300N, 300N(with 5.7L hemi V8, 20'inch wheels and P255 wide tires) will have the same performance as E55. At half price, it is a shame for $80K car that it can not beat a 40K car in term of power,speed and handling ? It is called super just because it is costly ?
  • wencaowencao Member Posts: 52
    CHRYSLER 300 HEMI® C CONCEPT ? It is basicly the convertable version of 300N. The only IF is what TRANNY will DC put in 300N, 4-speed or 5-speed or manual ? I wish M5, E55 will get better after 3 yrs, while 300N has the same performance of today's E55, enough,that is enough.
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    This conversation is about the vehicles named in the discussion title. Let's get back on topic.

    Some off-topic posts have been removed. This is a reminder that your Town Hall Terms of Use requires respectful and civil disagreement.

    If you want to talk about the Jag XJR, MB E55 and/or BMW M5, please continue.

    Pat
    Host
    Sedans and Women's Auto Center Message Boards
  • htwiredhtwired Member Posts: 62
    I have always been totlally taken by the original BMW M6; never had the right opportunity to buy one. I have seen artists renderinng of a new edition M6 supposably scheduled to be produced in 2004. Doe anyone know if the new M6 is reallly going to happen? I have opportunity to buy M6 locally its not mint but it has not been abused. After recent test drive I am wondering if waiting for new edition with current technology would be better choice?
  • mmcbride1mmcbride1 Member Posts: 861
    Well, you'll need something to drive in the meantime, won't you? Order the new one (Yes, I think it will happen, but that's just my opinion), and buy the used one to drive until it comes in. Enjoy.
  • gcoversgcovers Member Posts: 2
    Thanks for the your info from march 23, I will definitely touch base with the individuals you mentioned. Are you familiar with the $25,000 upgrades offered by Hennessey for XJR and XKR's and wether or not this is a good and reliable way to go.
  • chris_yorkchris_york Member Posts: 4
    I was the guy who posted the information (and request for information) on the XJR performance improvements. Haven't done anything yet. Mainly because I haven't made a decision on the XJR vs. the BMW M5.


    If you have any information on the Hennesey suite of modifications - particularly a website - I would love to see it! I haven't heard that name mentioned when discussing XJR improvements. Are they new at this, or a small shop? Arden of Germany (http://www.arden.de) seems like the leader in Jaguar improvements. However, getting their engine and exhaust modifications is almost impossible state-side. The other outfit is http://paramount-performance.com. They too seem to have their act together. Either one of these establishments would be prohibitively expensive for me. Paramount isn't good about returning voice calls or e-mail. Eurotek (http://eurotekdesigns.com) imports some of the Arden, Ritter and Carlsson components for installation in the U.S. The other thing I found out about the Arden engine modifications is that it generally requires high octance fuel (~98) that would interfere with some of the engine electronics on U.S. specification vehicles.


    What do you know about Hennessey???


    Thanks in advance...

  • pablo_lpablo_l Member Posts: 491
    They do have a website of their own at

    http://www.hennesseymotorsports.com/


    Seems pretty similar to the other stuff you listed. Again, I am a bit suspicious about simply boosting the charger some more - if the additional horsepower comes at the cost of low-end torque, it's not worth it, in my opinion. The souped up interiors of the Paramount modifications seem pretty darn awesome, though. Pity Jaguar as a whole does not have some division that customizes cars some - the personalization market seems a bit lacking.

  • gcoversgcovers Member Posts: 2
    Hey Guys
    Looks like pablo already supplied the Hennessey motor sports web site. If you have 25K to burn this could be an option, although I would be seriously concerned with reliability, and octane requirements. I recently talked to Jeff at Wheeltec 1-800-939-4335, who is a rep for arden, he installed the pulley and an arden exhaust on an XKR. He assured me that the 2 psi boost increase from the pulley does not cause any detonation or pinging, even with our hot and humid South Florida weather and maximum 93 pump octane (on a good day). The 30 to 35 Horse increase appears to be a reasonable expectation. I also talked to a guy in Chicago who installed a 3:77 gear from Phil at Eurotek in his 98 XJ. He was totally blown away and insists on a full second improvement in 0-60 times,obviously he highly recommends it. Highway acceleration in access of 110mph might be slightly diminished but who really cares.Cruising rpm is slightly higher but no big deal due to the 5 speed overdrive. It lookes to me that a pully with an exhaust in addition to some gears is a perfect solution for my 2001 XJR, which is propably the way I am gonna go. Any comments or recommendations are greatly appreciated, otherwise I will check in again after moifications are complete.
    P.S. Does anybody know who reworks the pulley's locally in the U.S.
  • pablo_lpablo_l Member Posts: 491
    So did you do the modifications to the XJR? Opinions? In the aftermath of this discussion, I briefly considered something like this, but I rather wait a few years 'til the warranty is over anyway...
  • pablo_lpablo_l Member Posts: 491
    God, this topic really went to the dogs with the high tech market crash... coincidence? :-)
  • rguillermorguillermo Member Posts: 2
    Has anyone heard yet whether the 2002 M5 will have the option of the Sequential MultiGearbox like the M3?
  • w210w210 Member Posts: 188
    no sequential on 2002 M5, perhaps the next generation M5 in 2004?
  • maximaximamaximaxima Member Posts: 2
    When you compare the specs of the M5, E55 AMG and Lexus GS430, they all hover around 3700+-lbs. Which makes me think...the M5 and E55 are tremendous supersedans in their own right, but the GS is the vitrually the same weight as say the M5, a whopping 25% less horses than the m5 (300hp vs. 400hp for the M5). Why then is the GS 430 only 0.8 or so seconds slower than the M5 to sixty? Does this mean that the GS can potentially match the M5 to sixty if compared fairly (with a hypothetical 6-speed manual)? Is it because of gearing or an engineering weakness on BMW's behalf? Not to discredit any M5 enthusiasts out there being that Im an M5 Lover myself...however, might the Lexus produced 4.3 be more potent than the 5.0L bimmer pound for pound(metaphorically speaking of course)?If so, Lexus could come up with a M5/AMG contender should it decide on producing a tweeked up version of its already capable GS430. All it would need to do outside of the drivetrain is redesign the suspension along the lines of its 3-series-esque IS300 and offer a manual 6-speed trans.
  • pablo_lpablo_l Member Posts: 491
    ".. If so, Lexus could .."

    The conditional never makes for a good comparison. Fact is Lexus does not offer a car that is in the super-sedan category. The GS430 is nice, sure, but not in this league.
  • arcoatesarcoates Member Posts: 221
    The GS430 may be able to come closer in straightline speed, but throw a curve into the road, and it would fall way back. The M5 is about the whole package, not just the engine. It is the ultimate sports sedan on the planet, and no Lexus could come close~ A.R.
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    I just wonder if the next generation E55 is going to get the 476 hp engine that the new SL55 is going to have. Mercedes may get the chance to wear the crown again in this class. The GS430 would a get a mutt-hole stomped in it fooling with these cars here.

    M
  • maximaximamaximaxima Member Posts: 2
    I meant instead that if lexus has the ability to make the IS handle close to a 3-series (some argue better with its stock 0.91g's albeit a slightly rougher ride) they can potentially make a 0.9-somethin-G handling full-size (GS or some variant) in the next generation given their already capable 4.3 I was just wondering if anyone knows why it takes a relaively larger 5.0L displacement 400hp of an engine for the m5 to get 0-60 in 5 seconds when the GS being the same weight as the M5 and handicapped by 100hp, can obtain 60mph in only 0.7-8 seconds more, keep in mind that the GS is an AUTOMATIC as well! It doesn't add up. Judging from these factors alone, the M5 should be even faster with its manual tranny 6speed and additional 100HP AND additional 0.7L of displacement(torque)! Im not saying that the current GS is a supercar already in the league of the M5. Even if they were able to create numbers like the M5 or AMG's, Lex won't be as "connected" to the driver...however, i am confused by the M5's inability to make the GS430 "eat dust" in this respect outrunning it by a mere 0.7-8sec with such a horsepower, engine displacement, and manual tranny advantage. (3 factors in large favor of M5!)
    In conslusion, Im simply questioning the future integrity of BMW's gap of superiority in supercar engineering here, not whether or not Lexus offers this or that. Im just concerned with how BMW's performance figs are not all too superior in this light lexus being the more resoursceful, and therefore potentially capable in its own right. To Pablo: I was not comparing what Lex offered, I'm comparing their engineering prowess, b/c thats the whole point of comparing cars from diff. manufacturers, to answer "who are the better engineers?"
    The M5 still reigns supreme for this generation.
    Too bad Lexus is focusing on the wrong thing(plush luxury and opulence) b/c if they wanted right now, i bet they could cook up an M5 of their own! Lexus deserves a lot of respect as well
  • pablo_lpablo_l Member Posts: 491
    Your message is a just a concatenation of would's and could's, sorry. Lexus offers nothing in this category, and thus it's not worth talking all that much about when it comes to spuer-sedans. I have little doubt they "could" build something that "could" come closer to any of these cars, but until they do, it's noth worth wasting our time wondering.

    And the M5 and any of these cars here utterly dust the GS430 in a straight line. Close to a second is an eternity. The GS430 does not feel *stupidly* fast to me. It is fun and entertaining, but nowhere close these cars. Forget the numbers, cars are a lot about mere feeling, and there's just no comparison.
  • w210w210 Member Posts: 188
    Just driven a E55, GS430, 540i back to back, the AMG is significantly faster than the other two, no comparison.

    That 1 second to 60mph is a lot, think of it this way, a GS430 and 540i to 60mph in around 6 seconds, the E55/M5 does it in 5 seconds, the Porsche 996 Turbo and Ferrari 360 can do it at around 4.0 seconds.
  • dreuxdreux Member Posts: 2
    "I just wonder if the next generation E55 is going to get the 476 hp engine that the new SL55 is going to have. Mercedes may get the chance to wear the crown again in this class. The GS430 would a get a mutt-hole stomped in it fooling with these cars here."


    From what I have seen/heard on the net. The 2003 will be using a 450hp engine. It could very well be the same one as the SL55. It is getting someother stuff the SL55 has as well.


    Heres the most recent spy shots/info


    http://www.ecomcars.co.uk/newcarsecrets/spypictures/spetember_2001/mer_e_class/mer_e_class.html

  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    The first part of that post sounds familar...hmmmm. Well that engine in U.S. trim will produce 469 hp, and yes it will be in the next E55. However BMW is studying the feasability of a V10 in the next M5 so it'll just keep escalating.

    M
  • w210w210 Member Posts: 188
    With the new E-class coming out in 2003, I think the next E55 will be a year behind as 2004 model.

    I'm curious if the 2003 E500 will only have 288bhp..
  • pablo_lpablo_l Member Posts: 491
    it seems the car industry's "horsepower for the masses, and insane horsepower for the elite" motto that dominated the last years is maybe shifting some again. there used to be a time when anything over 220hp was considered healthy. we just got spoiled these last few years.

    i love my XJR, but given the fact i am going to be moving back to europe, i'll probably have to soon learn to re-aquaint myself with more down-to-earth horsepower issues. :-(
  • paulchiupaulchiu Member Posts: 378
    Just priced all the different color variations on Edmunds and saw that both "reds" had a $264 markup, the "blacks" $164, and the titanium silver $64. The "white" had a -$264 mark down.

    Why is this?

    Is it just looks? I remembered that my red roadsters back in the 80's did not fared well against road debris versus the metallic silver cars I had over the last 5 years.

    Curious? Any thoughts, anyone?
  • pablo_lpablo_l Member Posts: 491
    ...and it mainly revolves around the fact that a $400 variability seems to be quite minor all things considered with an M5... :-)
  • paulchiupaulchiu Member Posts: 378
    Yes, $400 is minor indeed. But might spell trouble when trying to upgrade and sell the "white" M5 in the future.
  • hungrywhalehungrywhale Member Posts: 83
    White is always a strong color. So is silver. So is black if you live up north, but it's a killer on price down south.

    Just get what you like best.
  • paulchiupaulchiu Member Posts: 378
    The wife does not like red. sigh....
  • pablo_lpablo_l Member Posts: 491
    ...I have always liked white cars. It is a classic color that goes with most brands legacy. So does green for Jags, of course. Red is good for only a few chosen few cars, in my humble opinion. Yellow narrows it down even further.

    I don't think white as a color hurts the resale value that greatly. Personally, the M5 I like in blueish hues, be it the light blue silver or the darker metallic blue.

    My XJR is white. I thought long and hard about British Racing Green, but heritage be damned, this is California and white is far more practical...
  • paulchiupaulchiu Member Posts: 378
    were a silver Prelude
    a white Lexus ES300
    a silver Mercedes ML430
    a silver Mercedes S500

    hoping for that red M5, but likely another silver.....
  • hungrywhalehungrywhale Member Posts: 83
    Silver is always a strong color come resale time. I'd prefer white, personally, though.
  • wolfxwolfx Member Posts: 72
    word is that they are fine tuning this monster engine for sale in 2005, with a 6 series coupe version the following year

    sounds like mercedes just lost the power race; neither their current AMG or V12 renditions can compete with this!
  • wishnhigh1wishnhigh1 Member Posts: 363
    A V10? That is disusting.

    Bangle needs to be fired. First of all, he wants to take us where we dont want to go, in both styling, and gimmickry. Now this?

    BMW was once known for their engines. Note that I did not say power. There are hundreds of companies that make huge power engines...just take a look at any popular yaghting magazine. It is not about power. BMW engines have been known for their smoothness, in both power delivery and reving nature.

    A V10, which are nearly impossible to balance correctly without sucking large amounts of power, would stray away from every ideal BMW has ever held. A V8 was bad enough.
  • wolfxwolfx Member Posts: 72
    isnt BMW known for its naturally aspirated power? well, it appears they've reached the limits of what a natural I-6 can get them; it's pretty much certain that we'll be seeing a biturbo I-6 3.5 equipped 5 series in two years. This is the engine expected to be just above the next generation V8 in power.
  • riezriez Member Posts: 2,361
    wishnhigh1... If you hate V-10s, don't read the latest issue of European Car. Not only do they discuss VW's upcoming 308-hp/553 lb-ft of torque 5.0L V-10 biturbo TDI, but they also discuss Porsche's upcoming 558-hp 5.5L V-10. BMW appears to be in good company regarding V-10s.

    Seems like the Dodge Viper has finally created a V-10 monster in the automotive world. Took a decade, but the march appears on. Too bad.

    I concur with you that I'd prefer to see balanced engines like I-6, horizontally-opposed 6, V-8, or V-12 than odd things like I-5, W-8, or V-10. What do these new engines really offer, that you couldn't get from an existing inherently balanced engine, other than being odd and different?
  • wishnhigh1wishnhigh1 Member Posts: 363
    Im not a fan of the Porsche V10 either.

    Well to answer your question about what do you get with these oddball engines....You get two more cylinders to brag about to the naive public that will always believe more power is better. Oh yeah, and you also get a bunch of R&D money wasted on trying to balance an engine that doesnt like being balanced.
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Why don't you wait until 2005 (when the BMW V10 actually appears) to declare that AMG
    has lost the anything. Right now i.e. 2002 they are killing BMW in power with one engine the 5.5L Kompressor V8. A staggering 493hp. And AMG has had a V10 on the shelf for years, as is a new V12 a comin'. You think Mercedes is going to just sit and watch BMW and Audi reach for the sky?

    M
  • benznutbenznut Member Posts: 104
    ...to whoever said this, hasn't it crossed your mind that they may want to utilize the 550hp V12 from the Maybach. It is official that a detuned version will power the top models such as S, CL, and SL.
    BMW should be scared about what MB has up its sleeve these days. The 493hp SL55 is just the warm-up. Next it will be a 500hp S600, a 580hp SLR, a 550hp Maybach and so on, before the power gets ridiculously excessive
  • wishnhigh1wishnhigh1 Member Posts: 363
    Benz should stop with the bragging rights and start concentrating on beating Lexus on quality and reliability.
  • riezriez Member Posts: 2,361
    Which car magazine was it that within the past 6 months or so tested most every BMW M Series against its MB AMG counterpart? Didn't they top rate every BMW over each respective MB? Thinking most of the performance numbers favored the BMWs, even in cases where MB supposedly had more powerful motors (due to use of automatic transmissions in the AMGs).

    Unless and until AMG does what M Series does, and only uses manual transmissions, not sure I care what any automatic-transmission-equipped car can do performance wise. Wouldn't be something I'm interested in or would consider buying.
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