Good luck, the E55 is truly a great car. There are not too many cars that can be so easy to drive, so fast and handles so well, so quiet and comfortable and safe, at any price.
Every US mag that has gone for supersedan comparisons has comapred the M5 against the E55 against the Jag XJR. The Audi S6, while a great car, is not up to the horsepower of these three. Engine performance and acceleration seemingly makes these cars natural competitors, even thiugh I personally think they are very different cars - the Jag clearly is slanted more towards luxury and comfort rather than sports performance. Yeah, it accelerates as hard as the others [they are within .2s in every test], but it is softer and more ponderous overall. The Jag S class is totally outgunned against the E55 or M5, so there is no possible inclusion there...
Hey, It likes like a pretty good deal, 69K is the lowest I've seen one go for. Those guys at Autobahn are jerks. In trying to make a deal for a C43, (they had two), after two hours of arm twisting, they came down a whopping $500 from list. Seeeeeeeyaaaaaa. Got mine for way under from a broker. Which brings me to WIZKI, if you decide not to take it, can I have it? I wouldn't mind having one at list. I'm not gonna pay 15K over for a used one. Thanks.
This is probably more appropriate for a different category, but the discussion of Bay Area Mercedes dealers is a fun one.
Im my experience the best Bay Area Mercedes dealer is Mercedes of Oakland. Joe the sales manager is a fair guy and Mark Watson is a great salesperson. I have purchased three cars from them and have two more on order.
I have a tough time deciding who is the worst of the remaining dealers although I would give a slight nod to Autobahn.
Smythe European in SJ is inconsistent. When we bought my wife's car, treatment and the deal we got were excellent, really. Then I go there *really* interested in getting me a CL500 or S500, and it was abominable. The sales guy would not even open the door of the car for me to take a look at the interior, but let me flatten my nose against the side windows. I was disgusted, and went back to the Jaguar (British Motors), where customer treatment is top class.
And yes, I saw a guy showing off his Designo E55 in front of a brewery one week ago or so. The color and two tonme leather did nothing for me - way too busy.
I drove an XJR for a week and it is a fantastic auto. The depreciation on the XJR however far exceeds that of the M5 and E55, and it is therefore the most expensive to own. I wanted an automatic so that ruled out the M5. I test drove a 99 E55 with 12K miles that was $72K, just about as expensive as a new one. The dealer had a car on the way and I pick it up next week.
...well, congratulations on your purchase. You'll have a blast, I am sure. Generally, though, if one views cars as an "investment", there are far better deals out there than any of these. Let's face it, as soon as we drive 'em out of the lot we've lost a cool $20k at least. Only dealers get away with charging higher-than-new prices for cars that are in rare availability. And I am no insider. I must say that the M5's manual gears don't seem up to the usual BMW smoothness, but then again this is a 400hp car, and shifting gear has to be built more solidly than, say, in a 328i or so. Mind you, the M5 is still the true sportscar of this lot. I was fully ware that the market perceives the XJR as the least desirable of these 3 cars, though, the US being ruled by Teutonic-car-fetish and all. :-) I have no second thoughts about it, though - it was the choice best suited to my requirements. I am thinking about having another everyday, "I-don't-care-where-I-park-it-ding-the-doors-all-you-want" car, and the soon to come BMW Mini has really caught my fancy, which seems to indicate that I, in turn, am ruled by fondness for pseudo-British stuff. :-)
Sorry Pablo, I have to disagree, neither the E55 or the M5 would depreciate $20k off the lot! Only the rare British cars would do that.. Jags, Aston Martin, Bentley, RR, and a selective Italian cars like the Ferrari 550 & 456..
Pablo - I agree these aren't an investment. But the cost of ownership, ie sales price less trade in, is the issue. Look at prices of 99,00 used XJR vs 99,00 E55 and 00 M5. I plan to trade my E55 in a year or so for a 911 twin turbo cab, if porsche makes one. I would take a huge hit if I had gone with an XJR. 99 E55's are getting mid 60's at the Manheim auction. 99 XJR's are high 50's retail.
Well, I agree the Jaguar depreciates somewhat more, but all of them depreciate to the point where if that is a concern, you'd be better off with another car that depreciates far less.
A '99 XJR has a retail value of about $50k, a '99 Merc E55 a retail value of 60k (check used car pricing on this website). Then again, an E55 sets you back at least 75k new when compared to the Jag's 70k. So we're talking about a $20k loss with the Jab over the first year, a $15k loss with the Mercedes. In my opinion, you shouldn't be buying any of these cars if $5k make a huge difference to you when it comes to such a large purchase. Sure I don't like to give money away, but to consider "investment protection" when you're sybaritically dishing out 75 thou on a car is somewhat of a contradictory thing to me: if you owwry about car depreciation, buy a normal E-class, and put the difference in bonds (a year ago I would have said stock, but hey).
As to the Porsche, a friend of mine has his 911 Turbo coming. You are *sure* that is not enough power and you need a double turbo?? Talk about horsepwoer addiction... We "super sedan" 370HP folk are wimps compared to that... :-)
In the end, to each his own. These are all great cars. And none of them a very logical choice, and thus our own means of pseudo-logical justification on why we need one of these over the others are all very valid subjectively. :-) I know "investment protection" was not high on my list, I knew I was just burning money on something I didn't really need. The other option I considered was to keep my convertible and get a 3-series or C-class for everyday practical use. I obviously decided against that, despite it being the far more sensible financial option...
For rare limited production cars, Edmunds' user car pricing is not accurate at all.
How about checking out MBUSA.com and find out what the markups are for USED E55s? They are all above MSRP. Because they are limited production cars with a long waiting list, people are paying premium for even a used one.
Granted, what you see on MBUSA's web page are retail asking prices but that will give you a rough indication of the fair market value of a 1999 or 2000 E55. A low mileage (<10k miles) 2000 E55 retailing at around $75-80k. The M5 is similar as they do not depreciate $15k a year. I am not sure what the deal is with the XJR but the whole world seems to think that the XJR depreciates far more than the E55 and the M5.
Of course, that doesn't mean it's a bad car. Personally I would pick to drive the XJR over the M5 day in day out simply because it's an automatic. If I have to buy one, I too would stay away from the Jag. Most of the guys I know driving the XJR are leasing them.
Normal E class and regular 5 series do depreciate MUCH more than the E55 and the M5, call any dealer and you'll find out. Have you ever seen an old E320 or 540i retailing anywhere above their MSRP?!
You will not be able to find a car that depreciates much less than the E55, M5, Ferrari 360 or 996TT. For the Ferrari and the Porsche, you can drive it for a few months and make some money from sellling it, believe it or not.
Regarding Porsche turbos, they make a 911T, then a 993TT, and currently it's the 996TT. You do not have the option of the number of turbos in a Porsche.
...I think you are confusing the dealer prices with what you could charge as an individual. It is a *huge* difference with any of these. If you trade your car in, you're not going to see any premium, blue book is it. Which means you'll sell it privately, which is (a) a hassle and (b) is never ever going to get you the stiff mark-ups dealer are able to charge for these rare cars. Sad facts of life. If you find a used '99 Jag XJR selling for $50k, please tell us, 'cause I've nevr seen one. They command a premium to - on dealer lots.
Note I am *not* saying the XJR holds its own just like a Merc or BMW. It surely doesn't. All I am saying, repeatedly, is that I find that financial "value loss" consideration out of place on *any* of these cars, really. You pay a lot, you lose a lot, that is the case for each and every high end car around. I think if you bought any of these cars expecting to not lose quite a bit of $ when you sell them, you're in for a rough and unpleasant surprise. Sure the Merc and BMW hold their own somewhat better, but all in all it is a significant financial loss. If buying an E55 over an XJR is someone's idea of a "sound investment", I don't want them anywhere near any of my accounts...
...and I've heard about that alleged ability to drive a car around for months and make money of the sale, and every time the person telling the story, in my opinion, was full of crap trying to sound very clever, and everyone that ever truly approached it from a busines premise in the end, after further investigation, didn't do it.
The "high demand" thing is often geographic. Which means you could make money by buying such car somewhere else and driving/shipping it over. And while it's done, the margins are often way too razor-thin for it to be an attractive premise for someone in an upper income class (which people considering these cars mostly are). When the BMW Z3 came out, they commanded a *huge* premium in Germany, which meant several people considered getting a couple in California and shipping 'em over. Number-crunching showed it wasn't really worth it. My CEO has a near-new Ferrari, and is getting the 360 Modena real soon. Despite all the rumors about Ferraris selling for this and that, most of the money goes to the dealers, not to owners. He's selling his car privately, and he'll incur a loss in doing so. It's a small loss considering the value of the car but hey - cars are *never* an investment. It's like people saying thay buy a Rolex 'cause they hold their value - try selling one as a private person for that premium, and you won't get it.
We don't agree on the XJR depreciating "*much* more", all of them depreciate significantly to the point where the financial consideration, in my opinion, is utterly out of place. And the '97 XJR is a tad old an does not even have the 8 cyl engine, so it is not a good comparison. I see you want to drag this down to a "better than" discussion, and I am not into that.
What do you mean better than? It's pretty straight forward in my case, if an outright purchase using my own money, the M5 or the E55, if someone hands me the set of keys, the XJR or the E55.
You should talk to your dealers though, it's really true these cars depreciate less in % compared to the regular E, 5 series, or XJ8.
...fact of the matter is, you are talking as if driving any of these cars off the lot does not represent any loss, which is a nonsenical expectation to bring. Try driving an E55 off the lot, bring it back the next day, and say you want to trade it in to buy a CL600. See if you get that premium. Good luck.
I can't say anything for the other cars but at least with the Mercedes I do believe that if you purchase for MSRP, you definitely can sell back to the dealer for MSRP if not a bit higher with under 6000 miles. I did it a couple times and that was just for a CLK430 (when they were hot). I do believe that for the E55 it would be the same story. (Also the M5) On the other hand, the Jag, you can go to a dealer and get it significantly off MSRP.
...if we could safely predict that with *any* car, we can go sell it back to the dealer for *more* than we paid for it, we'd all be mindboglingly stupid to not all be driving our luxury cars for free, really. It's not as easy. And for every story you hear, you can hear 10 stories about people that bought into the hype and got either disappointed or burned. The appeal of the E55 would be so overwhelming if you could really drive one not only for free, but making a profit, that you'd hardly see another car on the road.
I am not disputing that with some luck you can minimize your loss, or in some cases even make some money with a car. The latter is the case with collectibles, though, and you better be an insider. None of these cars are collectibles, none of them will*appreciate* while the owner is putting a few thousand miles on them. The *dealers* are the ones that have the high demand for them and mark them up, but try selling your car in the rpivate market for much profit and you'll keep on waiting while that car depreciates some more.
Cars are *not* an investment, and all of these cars are basically expensive toys. Perceive them as an invetment at your own financial risk.
...you read Jesse's reply somewhat myopically. The higher price compensates for the fact you can not even remotely harbor hopes of getting the car for less than MSRP. There are people that post to this topic that got their E55 used for well over $70k. Not a bargain. The higher overall price level does not mean you'll make any money in the exchange.
I for one did not pay remotely MSRP for my new XJR. Which makes everything you talk about inaccurate and the financial consideration near irrelevant.
No matter how you look at it, a XJR will depreciate much more in % than an E55 or M5 which is just the simple fact of life.
And believe it or not, there are some of us (varich, probably jesseliu, myself) who find the bigger depreciation significant enough to want to stay away from the car, which is a shame because the XJR is really not a bad car.
Discussing with you was interesting in the beginning, I quite enjoyed helping you to see the difference between a 911T, 993TT & 996TT; however, it has now turned into a meaningless exchange of words like two little kids fighting over a candy bar and it's quite cruel to the other readers here boring them to death.
I for one doubt you own any of these cars, given the fact you seemed to use some faulty logic that is not buttressed by a single true fact. They do sell and resell at different levels, some of them distorted. The example of the '97 you brought up was plain ridiculous, and a simple crosscheck would shown you it was meaningless as well.
Whoever has followed this topic for a while knows I am not at all a religious defender of my car, but I am not going to conveniently shut up when someone buttresses a half-cooked pisconception and patchily researched prejudice. This is supposed to be a forum that others use for information, and you are spreading misinformation - it's simple as that.
while I"m sure that an E55 could sell the car back at MSRP with np if its still under 5000 miles, it still doesn't make up for the taxes. No one is disputing with you whether these cars are an investment. I believe that most of just think that the Jag depreciates considerably more. I didn't get the Jag because it wasn't sporty enough and becuase I didn't like the supercharger whine.
You made the right choice, since the superficial financial analysis that 44264 has been putting forward does not rank as one of your decision-making factors...
With the E55, fact is that either you are willing to pay *significantly* more than MSRP (up to the mid-80s, I know I was offered one at $86k), or you must wait very patiently for a *long* time. While this looks like the perfect environment for deal-making, the problem is finding the E55 at a price that will allow you to make a profit from market consitions, and when you do, you better sell fast, since market conditions can shift very quickly. Today's hot demand car is old news in 12 months, max. So if your goal is to make money, you are not buying the car - you are buying and immediately selling. You should not drive it.
Pretty much the same goes for the M5, but not quite as hotly as for the E55.
Finally, you have the XJR. The wait for one is long. They are factory ordered, and the same games that you see in Merc dealerships with cars that "were bought in the MidWest" and are sold over MSRP to some buyers are played. With my Jag dealership, since I had bought my old car there, and they had been working on me to buy a new car for a while, when oportunity arose I played hardball. They knew I'd pay cash, but only if I got a good deal. And I did get one. Thusly, for me the compelling financial advantage lay with the XJR. Since I do not even remotely entertain thoughts of selling it anytime soon, the whole point is moot. Were I to sell it, the loss would be bad. But I suspect it would not be as bad than as if I had bought the E55 for well over $80k, wouldn't you agree?
The only valid and reliable gauge are the used prices published in sites such as this one - everything else is a roulette game, and you should never count on the market holding up like that even for another 6 months.
People that buy any of these cars typically do not consider the "depreciation aspect" that much, since it is somewhat of an unknown quantity, particularly one year down the road. To claim anything else is misleading. It's like saying you can predict the stock price for AT&T for the next year, really.
In none of the comparision tests between these 3 cars was the resale value mentioned as ranking criteria, and probably with a good reason.
That's great, really, but I'd still have a problem calling any car over $50k a "great deal". :-) You *know* what I am talking about, though - there are wildly marked up M5s, E55s and even XJRs out there, and people that seek immediate gratification will not find themselves a great deal, nor should they count on getting a lot of that prmium back.
And, the luxury tax and other fees are lost as soon as you turn the ignition key. That is several thousand $ of loss right there.
Again - I am not arguing in all likelyhood the E55 will hold its value somewhat better than the M5 and the M5 in turn over the XJR. But given the stiff initial price of these cars, the volatility of market desirability etc - I think the "value" condieration, while certainly valid, is of somewhat reduced significance. No professional reviewer brings up that consideration, and if it was such a major differentiator I am sure we'd heard about it. Jaguars have come a very long way in the last years, and that includes the huge depreciation associated with them some years ago. That was due to major reliability issues, and those are now turly entirely gone. I have driven Jaguars since 1994, and I have not had one single issue. I can't say the same about my 5 year BMW 3-series coupe ownership. The latter just being highly coincidental stuff, of course.
I did get my Jag well under $70k, loaded, without fees and taxes, of course, and got a lot of money for my old car, incidentally another Jag - the buyer loved the prisitne condition and color so much that they matched what *I* had paid for the car several years ago. Such are chancy market trends, and I can't say I had planned on it.
I find it interesting that most of the discussion the past few days have been on resale value and depreciation. Are all you owners so bored with the performance attributes of these fine machines, or you so take them for granted that all that's left is to haggle over depreciation numbers?
Sorry to hear about your ticket Jesse. I know how stable the E55 is at that speed. Lucky they didn't suspend your licence right there.
You know, I think the only gadget that may possibly work against aircraft or instant-on radar is a police scanner, such as the Uniden BearTracker BCT12 scanner:
I'm always curious if those things work.. I already have the V1 and K40 laser defuser installed but they're totally useless again aircrafts and instant-ons.
Good luck with the evolving ticket issue, jesseliu. I've had to go to traffic school once since moving to the US, and vowed to myself to do my best to avoid it in the future... but these cars certainly don't help...
As to ".. the only gadget that may possibly work against aircraft .." I was thinking a little Scud missile, but didn't find any in autoanything.com... :-)
Definitely, one thing about these cars is that here in the US, with 65mph speed limits, they are fish out of water, and they invite infractions. After getting mine and feeling I'd broken it in well, for a while I was driving with adolescent antics, it's just too easy to put jerks that try to be all aggressive in their pitiful rides in their place, or drive way too fast on the highway... for some reason, after one such episode, I chilled a hell of a lot.
Yeah I"m currently out of the states so I have to get a lawyer as well. I had a V1 which was picking up all the cops on the ROAD ... forgot about air. I really wonder if that Beartracker really works?
I haven't heard about plans for re-design of the E-class. Mercedes has been busy enough re-working their entire product line, and my guess is that now that they have a very complete, highly competent and competitive product line going that shares some family resemblance, they'll take a breather. The E-class set the tone for many new Mercedes design cues, and does not really look like it needs to be re-newed. It still looks very trendy to me. The BMW 5-series is also relatively new - BMW seems to be busy working on a 2-series and renewing the 7-series.
A new Jag XJ8 is due in '02, and what I have seen thus far does not look all too encouraging. I think the XJ8 is a design that established Jag's historical legitimacy, if they go for another shared base platform and a bubbly look, they might make the car more practical, but also kill off a huge part of the appeal of the Jaguar.
Just a rumor, but heard from a MBZ dealer who could have sold me a car. He told me that MBZ is re-doing the E next year for MY2002. No word on what it will look like, but speculation is that it will resemble current S and C class. Now wouldn't that be confusing? Already if a C flashes past you, it can be mistaken for an S (OK, so only if you're really nearsighted), so imagine when a "bigger" C (i.e., the rumored new E) goes by!
The new E is due for the 2003 model year in the U.S. and 2002 model year for Europe. The pictures I have seen so far have the next E looking like a more formal version of the S-Class, but not exactly like it.
I have a beartracker that i no longer use. I travel i95 from southside VA to Phila. It will alarm all the time in any urban area. The only ticket i've gotten in my 96 C4 cab (87000 miles and counting) was the first time i used the beartracker. The V1 is the way to go. It is a superb instrument. I've had 3-4 BEL units and they only last 1 year or so. The V1 has been trouble free for 4-5 years. The aircraft in VA use vascar, and the roads are marked in 1/4 mile increments, so it's easy to see where their target area is. You should be able to spot the aircraft, which is of course easier in a convertable. I picked up my E55 today, and it was at MSRP. The Jag dealer has 2 XRJ's on the lot, and they are also at MSRP. I drove the XJR for a week in LA and loved the car. I didn't look for an M5 because I want an automatic. All the reviews say that the XJR back seat is less comfortable than the E55, and i want to carry folks in the back on extended journeys. The XJR is the best looking of the 3 and has the nicest interior. It also seems to be the most available.
New E-class should be introduced in Europe in Fall 2002, available in the US as a 2003 model. AMG version will likely be a 2004 model. The following is a well known MB fans site for upcoming models:
Varich, if you're interested in selling the BearTracker, please email me at e55_for_sale@yahoo.com, thanks. I had a 2000, wanted to sell it to upgrade to a 2001 but ended up directly trading in with the dealer. For what's worth, I bought the 2000 slightly under MSRP and after 10k miles and paying the dealer $1k, I got a 2001 model.
Btw, is yours a BCT10 or 12? How useful is it for the highway say if you have 20 miles between two urban areas or is it just too sensitive making it useless unless you're totally out in no-man's-land?
I have a V1 but I want something to protect me from instant-ons late at night when I don't have a fast car to follow. Aircraft is a concern too, I'm not very good at spotting them. Problem with the BeatTracker is that besides its sensitivity issue, I am not sure if I can find a place to mount it in a discrete manner.
Varich, since you have driven both the XJR and the E55, how do you compare the two in their straight line acceleration? The E55 should corner much better but I wonder about their straight acceleration. What I like about the E55 is that its traction control is quite advance, even if I leave it on, it doesn't interrupt too much so I still manage to have a fast and safe strong acceleration.
For me, the XJR besides its steep depreciation, there isn't enough headroom and I found the seat cushion too short. It's probably quite reliable unlike the models in the 80s but it's just too expensive for me to own. Yes, Pablo can continue to tease me about it.
You can usually pick up instant on with the V1. The police won't set up a trap where there is no traffic. The V1 will pick up the signal for a few seconds and you need to slow down a look for the trap in the next 1-2 miles. Where I live the use of aircraft is infrequent and only where the road is marked off for their vascar. THey publicize it heavily as a deterrent. I am an ER doc, and a VA medical examiner, so I know the folks that patrol about 20-30 miles of interstate here. Several have asked about riding with me. My e55 has 120 miles on it, so I'm still in the break in period. Both the e55 and XJR can blow off just about anything on the road. The 0-60 times are basically the same. I think the e55 has an advantage in 60-100 acceleration, which is what matters when cruising on the interstate. The roads in and around LA were way too congested to do high speed runs. Down here there are a couple of 5 mile stretches of highway with little or no traffic and no place to set up a speed trap. I routinely do 120's in my 911 on those stretches. I've been in the 140's with the top down. Looking foward to seeing what the e55'll do. As far as the beartracker, it's at least 3 years old and I think it's a 10. It has a wire antenna that is about 6 feet wide. It mounts on the windshield with suction cups. I mounted the unit itself on the transmission tunnel with velcro. It has more potential in a rural area, but it's no substitute for the V1. I've done probably 120K miles with the V1 and learned to interpret it's signals well. The only ticket I've gotten in my blue 993 was from Vascar, and I was counting too much on the beartracker. I had a red 993 for 18 months and that thing was a ticket magnet! I was using BEL detectors then, but I don't think the V1 would have helped. You can't go fast in a red car and get away with it.
Let's just agree to disagree. My problem was with the fact that I perceived you to be misrepresenting what I had said (the "I see we agree on .." trick), but I can totally live with the fact we have different opinions. I continue to think the "cost to own" consideration somewhat out of place. On the other hand, you bring a lot of good information to the forum, so I respect your opinion.
As to straight line acceleration between the XJR and the E55, off the line they're probably pretty much identical with driver reaction time tilting the early advantage either way, but in the higher speed range the E55's better aerodynamics make a difference. It's somewhat surprising, since the E55's slightly lower power but slightly superior torque makes you expect the opposite, but aeordynamics and the Merc's refuse-to-go-away traction control seem to somewhat change things. I can't say I push the performance envelope in my car, but I was very duly impressed after a German colleague-friend took me from Munich to Frankfurt in his E55. The E55 seems to be the ultimate Autobahn tool. Incidentally, he just sold his E55, and is about to get a Porsche Turbo.
By the way, I fully agree with the argument that the XJR's interior space is far more cramped that the E55's - that is undisputable fact. But the interior is redeeming -at least to me- in other ways. I also find the Jag's very plush leather seats to find more comfortable, but it takes some fiddling to get the fit truly right, since the standard position tilts them forward way too much to preserve backseat legroom - that gives the impression that the seat is too short. Tilting it back gives you that leg support, but rear passengers' leg room suffers. I see the XJR as a 2 + 2 GT car, really. The rear seat passegners I've driven around have loved the car, and fell in love with the interior (everybody does), but I gather the love affair would have suffered a setback on a 6 hour drive.
...I'll take your word for it, but the pics I've seen showed a big S-class with a rounded roof-line a la CL-class, trendy yet a huge departure from the classic lines. It'll be a hell of a job to follow-up on the mainstay of the Jag line, one of those damn-if-you-do-damn-if-you-don't things... But those sneak-pics sometimes are very misleading. The new E55 pages provided by 44264 -great link, btw- show a face that jumps between S-class and rounded E-class, so who knows...
Comments
haven't read all messages but,
People, listen up...
I don't know about the USA, but here in Europe it's:
C class vs 3 series vs Audi A4 vs Jag X-type
E class vs 5 series vs Audi A6 vs Jag S-type
S class vs 7 series vs Audi A8 vs dunno 'bout jag
therefore
c32 vs m3 vs s4
e55 vs m5 vs s6
s55 vs no bmw vs s8
welcome to any comments
mercpwr
http://www.mbworld.org/forum/w210/board/home.html
http://www.mercedesshop.com
http://www.bmwm5.com/cgi-bin/Ultimate.cgi?action=intro
(The last one is the M5 board but it's interesting sometimes to see what's happening at the other camp.)
Good luck, the E55 is truly a great car. There are not too many cars that can be so easy to drive, so fast and handles so well, so quiet and comfortable and safe, at any price.
It likes like a pretty good deal, 69K is the lowest I've seen one go for.
Those guys at Autobahn are jerks. In trying to make a deal for a C43, (they had two), after two hours of arm twisting, they came down a whopping $500 from list. Seeeeeeeyaaaaaa. Got mine for way under from a broker.
Which brings me to WIZKI, if you decide not to take it, can I have it? I wouldn't mind having one at list. I'm not gonna pay 15K over for a used one.
Thanks.
Im my experience the best Bay Area Mercedes dealer is Mercedes of Oakland. Joe the sales manager is a fair guy and Mark Watson is a great salesperson. I have purchased three cars from them and have two more on order.
I have a tough time deciding who is the worst of the remaining dealers although I would give a slight nod to Autobahn.
And yes, I saw a guy showing off his Designo E55 in front of a brewery one week ago or so. The color and two tonme leather did nothing for me - way too busy.
A '99 XJR has a retail value of about $50k, a '99 Merc E55 a retail value of 60k (check used car pricing on this website). Then again, an E55 sets you back at least 75k new when compared to the Jag's 70k. So we're talking about a $20k loss with the Jab over the first year, a $15k loss with the Mercedes. In my opinion, you shouldn't be buying any of these cars if $5k make a huge difference to you when it comes to such a large purchase. Sure I don't like to give money away, but to consider "investment protection" when you're sybaritically dishing out 75 thou on a car is somewhat of a contradictory thing to me: if you owwry about car depreciation, buy a normal E-class, and put the difference in bonds (a year ago I would have said stock, but hey).
As to the Porsche, a friend of mine has his 911 Turbo coming. You are *sure* that is not enough power and you need a double turbo?? Talk about horsepwoer addiction... We "super sedan" 370HP folk are wimps compared to that... :-)
In the end, to each his own. These are all great cars. And none of them a very logical choice, and thus our own means of pseudo-logical justification on why we need one of these over the others are all very valid subjectively. :-) I know "investment protection" was not high on my list, I knew I was just burning money on something I didn't really need. The other option I considered was to keep my convertible and get a 3-series or C-class for everyday practical use. I obviously decided against that, despite it being the far more sensible financial option...
How about checking out MBUSA.com and find out what the markups are for USED E55s? They are all above MSRP. Because they are limited production cars with a long waiting list, people are paying premium for even a used one.
Granted, what you see on MBUSA's web page are retail asking prices but that will give you a rough indication of the fair market value of a 1999 or 2000 E55. A low mileage (<10k miles) 2000 E55 retailing at around $75-80k. The M5 is similar as they do not depreciate $15k a year. I am not sure what the deal is with the XJR but the whole world seems to think that the XJR depreciates far more than the E55 and the M5.
Of course, that doesn't mean it's a bad car. Personally I would pick to drive the XJR over the M5 day in day out simply because it's an automatic. If I have to buy one, I too would stay away from the Jag. Most of the guys I know driving the XJR are leasing them.
Normal E class and regular 5 series do depreciate MUCH more than the E55 and the M5, call any dealer and you'll find out. Have you ever seen an old E320 or 540i retailing anywhere above their MSRP?!
You will not be able to find a car that depreciates much less than the E55, M5, Ferrari 360 or 996TT. For the Ferrari and the Porsche, you can drive it for a few months and make some money from sellling it, believe it or not.
Regarding Porsche turbos, they make a 911T, then a 993TT, and currently it's the 996TT. You do not have the option of the number of turbos in a Porsche.
Note I am *not* saying the XJR holds its own just like a Merc or BMW. It surely doesn't. All I am saying, repeatedly, is that I find that financial "value loss" consideration out of place on *any* of these cars, really. You pay a lot, you lose a lot, that is the case for each and every high end car around. I think if you bought any of these cars expecting to not lose quite a bit of $ when you sell them, you're in for a rough and unpleasant surprise. Sure the Merc and BMW hold their own somewhat better, but all in all it is a significant financial loss. If buying an E55 over an XJR is someone's idea of a "sound investment", I don't want them anywhere near any of my accounts...
The "high demand" thing is often geographic. Which means you could make money by buying such car somewhere else and driving/shipping it over. And while it's done, the margins are often way too razor-thin for it to be an attractive premise for someone in an upper income class (which people considering these cars mostly are). When the BMW Z3 came out, they commanded a *huge* premium in Germany, which meant several people considered getting a couple in California and shipping 'em over. Number-crunching showed it wasn't really worth it. My CEO has a near-new Ferrari, and is getting the 360 Modena real soon. Despite all the rumors about Ferraris selling for this and that, most of the money goes to the dealers, not to owners. He's selling his car privately, and he'll incur a loss in doing so. It's a small loss considering the value of the car but hey - cars are *never* an investment. It's like people saying thay buy a Rolex 'cause they hold their value - try selling one as a private person for that premium, and you won't get it.
Cheers.
You should talk to your dealers though, it's really true these cars depreciate less in % compared to the regular E, 5 series, or XJ8.
On the other hand, the Jag, you can go to a dealer and get it significantly off MSRP.
I am not disputing that with some luck you can minimize your loss, or in some cases even make some money with a car. The latter is the case with collectibles, though, and you better be an insider. None of these cars are collectibles, none of them will*appreciate* while the owner is putting a few thousand miles on them. The *dealers* are the ones that have the high demand for them and mark them up, but try selling your car in the rpivate market for much profit and you'll keep on waiting while that car depreciates some more.
Cars are *not* an investment, and all of these cars are basically expensive toys. Perceive them as an invetment at your own financial risk.
I think the XJR's bigger depreciation can simply be explained by supply and demand. I certainly see more XJRs in dealers' lot than the E55 or M5.
I for one did not pay remotely MSRP for my new XJR. Which makes everything you talk about inaccurate and the financial consideration near irrelevant.
And believe it or not, there are some of us (varich, probably jesseliu, myself) who find the bigger depreciation significant enough to want to stay away from the car, which is a shame because the XJR is really not a bad car.
Discussing with you was interesting in the beginning, I quite enjoyed helping you to see the difference between a 911T, 993TT & 996TT; however, it has now turned into a meaningless exchange of words like two little kids fighting over a candy bar and it's quite cruel to the other readers here boring them to death.
Enjoy your XJR Pablo, all the best.
Whoever has followed this topic for a while knows I am not at all a religious defender of my car, but I am not going to conveniently shut up when someone buttresses a half-cooked pisconception and patchily researched prejudice. This is supposed to be a forum that others use for information, and you are spreading misinformation - it's simple as that.
Good day to you.
Only 3 XJRs are listed: one '99, two '98 that sell between 49-53k.
On E55s, 2 2001s are available, 2 200s, and one 1999 that sells for 67k. Try to make a profit when you resell that baby.
And 4 2000 M5s are available.
So all of htese cars are: (a) in short supply (b) expensive (c) something you ought to walk away from if you want to make a profit or find a bargain.
*Those* are the facts as evidenced by easily available resources provided one wants information, and not simply half-chewed gut-feel.
In the end, you got to buy what you like, and all 3 cars are magnificent machines.
I didn't get the Jag because it wasn't sporty enough and becuase I didn't like the supercharger whine.
With the E55, fact is that either you are willing to pay *significantly* more than MSRP (up to the mid-80s, I know I was offered one at $86k), or you must wait very patiently for a *long* time. While this looks like the perfect environment for deal-making, the problem is finding the E55 at a price that will allow you to make a profit from market consitions, and when you do, you better sell fast, since market conditions can shift very quickly. Today's hot demand car is old news in 12 months, max. So if your goal is to make money, you are not buying the car - you are buying and immediately selling. You should not drive it.
Pretty much the same goes for the M5, but not quite as hotly as for the E55.
Finally, you have the XJR. The wait for one is long. They are factory ordered, and the same games that you see in Merc dealerships with cars that "were bought in the MidWest" and are sold over MSRP to some buyers are played. With my Jag dealership, since I had bought my old car there, and they had been working on me to buy a new car for a while, when oportunity arose I played hardball. They knew I'd pay cash, but only if I got a good deal. And I did get one. Thusly, for me the compelling financial advantage lay with the XJR. Since I do not even remotely entertain thoughts of selling it anytime soon, the whole point is moot. Were I to sell it, the loss would be bad. But I suspect it would not be as bad than as if I had bought the E55 for well over $80k, wouldn't you agree?
The only valid and reliable gauge are the used prices published in sites such as this one - everything else is a roulette game, and you should never count on the market holding up like that even for another 6 months.
People that buy any of these cars typically do not consider the "depreciation aspect" that much, since it is somewhat of an unknown quantity, particularly one year down the road. To claim anything else is misleading. It's like saying you can predict the stock price for AT&T for the next year, really.
In none of the comparision tests between these 3 cars was the resale value mentioned as ranking criteria, and probably with a good reason.
And, the luxury tax and other fees are lost as soon as you turn the ignition key. That is several thousand $ of loss right there.
Again - I am not arguing in all likelyhood the E55 will hold its value somewhat better than the M5 and the M5 in turn over the XJR. But given the stiff initial price of these cars, the volatility of market desirability etc - I think the "value" condieration, while certainly valid, is of somewhat reduced significance. No professional reviewer brings up that consideration, and if it was such a major differentiator I am sure we'd heard about it. Jaguars have come a very long way in the last years, and that includes the huge depreciation associated with them some years ago. That was due to major reliability issues, and those are now turly entirely gone. I have driven Jaguars since 1994, and I have not had one single issue. I can't say the same about my 5 year BMW 3-series coupe ownership. The latter just being highly coincidental stuff, of course.
I did get my Jag well under $70k, loaded, without fees and taxes, of course, and got a lot of money for my old car, incidentally another Jag - the buyer loved the prisitne condition and color so much that they matched what *I* had paid for the car several years ago. Such are chancy market trends, and I can't say I had planned on it.
You know, I think the only gadget that may possibly work against aircraft or instant-on radar is a police scanner, such as the Uniden BearTracker BCT12 scanner:
http://www.jd-electronics.com/bearcat/bc12.html
I'm always curious if those things work.. I already have the V1 and K40 laser defuser installed but they're totally useless again aircrafts and instant-ons.
As to ".. the only gadget that may possibly work against aircraft .." I was thinking a little Scud missile, but didn't find any in autoanything.com... :-)
Definitely, one thing about these cars is that here in the US, with 65mph speed limits, they are fish out of water, and they invite infractions. After getting mine and feeling I'd broken it in well, for a while I was driving with adolescent antics, it's just too easy to put jerks that try to be all aggressive in their pitiful rides in their place, or drive way too fast on the highway... for some reason, after one such episode, I chilled a hell of a lot.
A new Jag XJ8 is due in '02, and what I have seen thus far does not look all too encouraging. I think the XJ8 is a design that established Jag's historical legitimacy, if they go for another shared base platform and a bubbly look, they might make the car more practical, but also kill off a huge part of the appeal of the Jaguar.
M
I picked up my E55 today, and it was at MSRP. The Jag dealer has 2 XRJ's on the lot, and they are also at MSRP. I drove the XJR for a week in LA and loved the car. I didn't look for an M5 because I want an automatic. All the reviews say that the XJR back seat is less comfortable than the E55, and i want to carry folks in the back on extended journeys. The XJR is the best looking of the 3 and has the nicest interior. It also seems to be the most available.
http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Downs/9323/w211.htm
Varich, if you're interested in selling the BearTracker, please email me at e55_for_sale@yahoo.com, thanks. I had a 2000, wanted to sell it to upgrade to a 2001 but ended up directly trading in with the dealer. For what's worth, I bought the 2000 slightly under MSRP and after 10k miles and paying the dealer $1k, I got a 2001 model.
Btw, is yours a BCT10 or 12? How useful is it for the highway say if you have 20 miles between two urban areas or is it just too sensitive making it useless unless you're totally out in no-man's-land?
I have a V1 but I want something to protect me from instant-ons late at night when I don't have a fast car to follow. Aircraft is a concern too, I'm not very good at spotting them. Problem with the BeatTracker is that besides its sensitivity issue, I am not sure if I can find a place to mount it in a discrete manner.
Varich, since you have driven both the XJR and the E55, how do you compare the two in their straight line acceleration? The E55 should corner much better but I wonder about their straight acceleration. What I like about the E55 is that its traction control is quite advance, even if I leave it on, it doesn't interrupt too much so I still manage to have a fast and safe strong acceleration.
For me, the XJR besides its steep depreciation, there isn't enough headroom and I found the seat cushion too short. It's probably quite reliable unlike the models in the 80s but it's just too expensive for me to own. Yes, Pablo can continue to tease me about it.
As to straight line acceleration between the XJR and the E55, off the line they're probably pretty much identical with driver reaction time tilting the early advantage either way, but in the higher speed range the E55's better aerodynamics make a difference. It's somewhat surprising, since the E55's slightly lower power but slightly superior torque makes you expect the opposite, but aeordynamics and the Merc's refuse-to-go-away traction control seem to somewhat change things. I can't say I push the performance envelope in my car, but I was very duly impressed after a German colleague-friend took me from Munich to Frankfurt in his E55. The E55 seems to be the ultimate Autobahn tool. Incidentally, he just sold his E55, and is about to get a Porsche Turbo.
By the way, I fully agree with the argument that the XJR's interior space is far more cramped that the E55's - that is undisputable fact. But the interior is redeeming -at least to me- in other ways. I also find the Jag's very plush leather seats to find more comfortable, but it takes some fiddling to get the fit truly right, since the standard position tilts them forward way too much to preserve backseat legroom - that gives the impression that the seat is too short. Tilting it back gives you that leg support, but rear passengers' leg room suffers. I see the XJR as a 2 + 2 GT car, really. The rear seat passegners I've driven around have loved the car, and fell in love with the interior (everybody does), but I gather the love affair would have suffered a setback on a 6 hour drive.