Audi S4 and S4 Cabriolet

habitat1 · August 2001

Caught your comment "sorry habitat", the only BMW 5 series worth the cash is a 540i. Funny how two people with common background can come to different conclusions! I also happen to own a 1995 Maxima SE. Although at 7 years and 111k miles it still runs like a charm, I am growing anxious to "upgrade" this fall/winter. About the only car I was prepared to rule out is the 540i 6-speed. Under consideration:

Nissan Maxima SE 6-speed (2002) - The "no brainer" value choice and no guilt feelings about excess spending. On the other hand, hard to justify spending any money on another Maxima when the one I've got is near perfect. What's the point?

BMW 530i Sport 5-speed - Still very practical, great handling, limited guilt feelings about excess spending, opportunity to get a great deal and take my family to Europe to boot.

BMW 330i - Tighter for the kids (but we have an SUV), sportier than the 530i. Less professionally correct - most of my business associates are 50+ and 6'+. Great resale value if I change my mind in a couple of years. Next to no guilt feelings.

BMW M3 - Fun to drive factor through the roof. Not practical at all for carting kids or more than one business associate. But I am high up on the waiting list and will be able to get one at MSRP ($50k+/-) by January +/-. Medium to high guilt feelings.

AUDI S4 - Alternative suggested by a friend who had a BMW 328. Yet to give it an extended test drive and form an opinion.

BMW M5 - A phenominal car when you consider people pay more for a S500. But $75,000? That's still $30k+ more than a 530i. This is like eating caviar every night after having grown up at McDonalds. Very high guilt.

Mercedes AMG C32 - Bragging rights to the fastest production sedan on the planet (not that I'd ever use half of it's potential). Four doors. Great interior ergonomics. Almost "reasonably" priced at $53k compared to any other AMG product (the CLK55 and E55 are $20k more and underperform the C32). But for God sakes, its an automatic. Can it really be fun to drive after having had a manual for the past 28 years.

Acura NSX (2003) - I'm not sure why, but I got on the waiting list for one. Maybe to make the M5 seem like a rational alternative. Unlikely to work. Guilty as hell.

I had pretty much ruled out the 540i 6-speed for being in no man's land. $50k+ for very good, but not truly exceptional performance. Also, I actually think that the lighter weight and rack & pinion steering of the 530i Sport allows it to handle better.

bobinsofla · August 2001

Your list makes me realize we live parallel lives (or thought processes) but I think you've got some deeper pockets to work with. Your list almost mirrors what I have looked at/dreamed about for the past year. One things for sure, I sold my 95 Maxima SE with 75000 miles on it and felt damn guilty about it. It was, hands down, the most reliable automobile I have ever owned or hope to own. I love my S4 but still think about that Maxima.

I considered the new Maxima, but just needed a change. Plus, I've never owned a German engineered car and being an engineer have always had certain expectations of what driving a german car everyday would be like.

Now considering your list. Given what you're looking at, and not knowing what your budget is (2003 NSX?) I still think my 540i comment holds water. Yes the 530 will be lighter and possibly feel lighter, but the torque available in the 540 will quickly overcome that issue. But I do agree that 540s are overpriced. Unless you can get a good deal with a European delivery.

Since you have clients to consider (which I did as well but figured I can borrow the wifes Pathfinder) unless you're hung up on a stickshift, for money less than an M5 or a 740i sport, you can have a brand new Audi S8. 360+ Hp, all wheel drive, an absolutely awesome interior, and every creature feature you could ever need. Add it to your list.

I wish I had your decision to make. Remove the 330i. The S4 is twice the car for the same money and will hold its resale value just as well.

I'm not so sure about your AMG C32 comment about fastest production sedan??????????????

Just remember this - In the typical day to day driving that most of us poor chumps have to endure, the one element that you can rest assured will quicken your pulse is TORQUE. If something's not kicking you in the seat, you may not be breathing.

BTW - 1500 miles until a little electronic magic infuses my little S4 with 310 HP and 360 Lbs-ft of Torque. Bring on your C32.................

Have fun picking your ride. You got some great choices.

Bob

mgreene1 · August 2001

The S4 is a terrific car but resale value sucks. If you get one, make sure you lease it.

Don't believe me? Just call around to your local wholesalers and ask them what they would pay for a used S4.

habitat1 · August 2001

Bobinsofla, & et al:

Again, not that I would ever buy a car purely on "numbers", the test figures I saw for the C32 are 0-60 in 4.6 sec, 0-100 in 10.8 sec. Compared that to M3 at 4.8 / 11.7 and Ferrari 360 at 4.3 / 10.3, respectively. If anything with four doors is faster, I don't know what it is (or two doors and four seats, for that matter). The site that I saw these test results in is called "New Car World" and cites Auto Week and Road and Track on many of the quoted figures. Sorry, I forgot the exact URL, but try your favorite search engine.

I think I'll put further consideration of my choices on hold for a couple of months so that I can get some real work done and take a vacation in the meantime. It was actually much easier back in 1994 when my Acura fell apart and I had to make a quick, affordable decision. And, as it turns out, I made a good one.

Thanks for your thoughts and suggestions.

bobinsofla · August 2001

mgreene1,

Then why the heck did you buy or lease one? Does this make you sorry you did? You can't look at just what wholesalers are willing to pay you for a measure of resale value. If we only did that then every car would be worth crap. You have to look at what cars sell for. This is hard info to obtain, but just like a house, it may appraise for one value, but its value in the marketplace is what someone will pay you for it (retail) and what similar houses in your neighborhood are selling for. Wholesalers quote you short money in case they have to unload the car at auction.

Do yourself a favor and do more homework before you sell your car's value short............

mgreene1 · August 2001

The dog ate my homework.

I'm on my 9th brand new car in the last 12 years.

You always take a beating trading early but the S4 was really bad compared to my other trades.

I'm not interested in selling cars as a 2nd job, so only trade-in values are relevant to me.

autoecon · August 2001

I am looking to get a new car within the next two months and have pretty much narrowed the choices down to the Audi S4 and BMW 330i. I have had several BMWs over the years and have loved them. so the 330i is a no brainer. But I have negotiated a great deal on the S4 so it will end up costing less. Concerns with the Audi are that the AWD will sacrifice the "tossable" and "nimble" feel that I love about the BMW. Steering feel on the Audi isn't as good and refinement isn't quite up to BMW standards since the S4 platform is now over 6 years old (at least that's my impression) Winter driving is also a consideration. I live in Philadelphia, some snow in winter, but not a lot. I think I should be okay with the BMW's rwd, traction control, and all-season tires. Obviously, Quattro would be ideal, but I would need to switch out of the Z-rated performance tires in the winter, so that's an extra cost. Appreciate any thoughts and opinions. Thanks.

bmms8 · August 2001

what do u guys think has ba better value, ride and quality between a 2.5 x-type and a a4???

mgreene1 · August 2001

Both cars are outstanding.

My philosophy is to get the *car* I like most rather than not the *deal* I like most.

All things considered, if you think you'd be happier with the BMW, then you should get it.

My only real complaints with the S4 were:

The stock manual shifter was too clunky and vague with a troublesome 2-3 shift. This can be fixed with an aftermarket short shifter but there could be some warranty concerns.

The heat shields can rattle (mine didn't) and buzz (mine did). This can be really annoying.

You will need to drive the S4 fairly easy in cold weather to allow the oil heat up, or risk having trouble with the turbos. It takes a 10 or 15 minutes. That can also be a nuisance.

Despite AWD, you need to change tires on the S4 for winter, unless they are now coming with all season tires. The summer tires that came on my S4 were not suitable for winter. Regardless of the car you get, I'd strongly recommended a good H-rated winter performance tire, e.g., Dunlop M2 Winter Sport. These tires perform very well and won't sacrifice dry handling too much.

The following link is the AudiWorld Search and it can provide a lot of good feedback. Just type in "330i S4" under "Search For" and choose the "S4" database.

http://www.audiworld.com/search/index.html

mmcbride1 · August 2001

I agree with mgreene. I might add, however, that if you get the sports package in the 330i, you'll have the same summer tires you need to swap out in winter, so that's really a moot point.

philltraffa · August 2001

I am surprised you advice to lease a S4 given your experience. Everybody knows that if residual value sucks then you should NOT lease; in general when you lease you are paying the difference between a brand new car and its residual value; a low residual value just means that you are paying more for your lease. The opposite is also true.

I did not follow what was your logic to conclude that you should lease when residual value is low; I am missing something?

phill

mgreene1 · August 2001

Let me try to clarify.

Regardless of whether you buy or lease, use the quoted "leasing deals" as a proxy for what the "true cost" of driving will be, after resale.

The "leasing costs" can be compared for similar cars to see which one offers the best value.

A high residual produces a lower payment while a low residual produces a higher payment. If the lease actually uses the low residual, the lease payment will be higher. Still, the manufacturer sometimes "subsidizes" their residual to prop up sales, because this "looks better" than reducing the selling price.

People can kid themselves by making their own "pie in the sky" assumptions about resale and buying instead of leasing. However, buying doesn't change their "risk-adjusted" expected cost since they are taking the resale risk.

A closed-end lease offers the option to lock in a resale price and the value of that option should be considered. If expected resale is subject to greater volatility, then the value of the option is worth more. In my opinion, the S4 has a very volatile resale value. That is my primary reason for recommending a lease.

Clearly, you should only lease (or buy for that matter) if the lease was a "good" deal.

A good lease requires relatively high residuals, discount from MSRP, and/or good money factor.

If you have confidence in the expected resale or plan to keep a long time, then go ahead and buy.

Hoped this was coherent since it was typed in a hurry.

philltraffa · August 2001

In other words you are assuming the following:

- Lease a S4 is better because at the time the lease ends, the resale value of the S4 is volatile and you can lock it for less
- If you buy it, you are pretty much assuming that you probably will trade-in for another car in the following 2-3years.

It has some sense, although those assumptions are not for everyone. Most of the people that buy a car, keep it for around 6-10years (not you, I believe).

On a side note, I was checking the kbb prices of a used S4 2000 loaded, with 12000 on it. trade-in is around 35K and retail is around 39.5K. I do not believe S4 resale value SUCKS from these numbers (in fact is comparable to BMW, at least in paper) and I do think that selling it for +/-38K should not be too hard (since production of the car has stopped until next year and there are not too many left on the dealer).

phill,

mgreene1 · August 2001

I guess time will tell.

The point about the resale improving after the new models are gone is well taken.

Also, keep in mind that I don't even follow my own advice, having just bought a WRX wagon last weekend as a 2nd car despite concerns that the resale value is going to suck.

ory · August 2001

I just leased a 2001 s4 for 48 months. The price at the end of the lease was the same %as a mbw, and a bit lower than a mercedes. (%48)
I think Audis still suffer from the 80's 5000 model image problem.
For the money, this was a great car to lease in my opinion, after comparing it to BMW. The money factor was 0.0025, which is low.

bobinsofla · August 2001

Has anyone experienced excess movement in their front seats? My drivers seat slips about 1/4-1/2 inch in forward/backward translation. I know it doesn't seem like much but it's a little unnerving when you hammer the brakes and your seat slides forward. Also, I can grab the seat backs and move them back and forth which I find sloppy considering my pathfinder seats are rock-solid. My S4 has less than 1000 miles on it and I plan to bring this to the shop's attention but wanted to see if anyone out there has the same issues, or if this is "normal".

I know alot of folks may think I'm completely anal when they read this and they're right.

Thanks, Bob

'01 S4
Silver/Onyx
Itchin' to be chipped........

jbwcfp · August 2001

I'm approaching 5k, and no seat movement. I have heard others comment on seat movement, however. My only complaint is my moonroof shade rattles when open, that's it.
Jim W

jbwcfp · September 2001

Great article about the S4 compared to bmw and subaru wrx. Quote "S4 feels like a 40k car" Article states production of current model will continue through 2002. New S4 out in 2003, that should be awesome.
Jim

jdbtensai · September 2001

Where'd everyone go?
Lately I've been reading up on the S4. I haven't even driven it yet, but I really think this is the next car I want. Unfortunately that won't be for a couple of years. I was hoping to get a couple of opinions, ideas. What other cars did you compare to the S4? Does anyone know anything about the next S4, the 2003?

fthimalaya · September 2001

I was wondering if anyone could offer me some advice. I have found some used 2000 and 2001 s4s. Do you think it is worth the 2,500 - 4,000 premium for a used 2001 vs a 2000? I know the warranty is better for the 2001 and the ESP was added on the 2001 (Is that even that big of a deal?). Are there any differences between the two? Assuming the miles are close to each other on each model, (within 5k) is the 2001 worth the extra cash? Your advice would be greatly appreciated. Thank you!

JBaumgart · September 2001

I would say the extra 1 year warranty (assuming the 50,000 mile limit wouldn't be reached first) would be worth somewhere around $1,000 - one to two major repair(s) wouldn't be unusual. The ESP is a nice safety feature (others value this as almost indispensible) and I would put a value of $500 on this. Everything else being equal between the cars you're looking at, the remaining difference would be just the resale value of the car when you are done driving it. The longer you keep it, the less important this would become.

I would say the biggest consideration is how well the previous owner took care of it - hard to find one that wasn't at least a little "abused" I would think.

zscott1 · September 2001

The early model 2000's were having problems with cooling the trubos properly. (not big enough oil lines or something) Might be something to consider. I think they corrected the problem half way through 2000.

jdbtensai · September 2001

i was looking forward to asking people some questions,... but....

jdbtensai · September 2001

wondering what sort of leases people get with $0 down???

fthimalaya · October 2001

Thanks jbaumgart & zscott1. I wound up buying a yellow/black 2001 for 31.9K with 20K miles on it. I bought it from a dealer, it was the owner's car. It was such a good deal it made the decision to by an '01 a no brainer. The color is a little loud for me but it's I'm starting to like it more. Thanks again.

shoes · October 2001

I own both an S-4 Avant and an '01 BMW 330 CIC. They are both very enjoyable cars but over time, I am beginning to see quality differences bwteen the two. I have owned six Audi's and seven BMW's in my life, so my opinion is somewhat experienced based.

In recent years, I have experienced zero problems with my BMW's and that includes a 1997 740i, a 2000 540 Touring and the 2001 330 CIC. I think BMW makes cars that are fun and well put together. My experience with Audis has been somewhat different. Everytime I go to a dealer and get into an Audi, I am very impressed at first glance. I think, wow, the quality seems much higher than the price. After six months, I feel just the opposite.

I still own the S-4 despite problems that the dealer cannot cure, like incredibly noisy brakes (both squeal at low speeds and a loud hum braking from high speeds). I have a wind noise from my passenger windshield that the dealer cannot fix. All of a sudden, $43,000 seems like a lot of money for this car, plus I agree with the earlier posts about falling values for Audis in the San Francisco Bay area. My car has depreciated $10,000 or 23% in six months?

I really like Audi design and hear that the next S-4 will have a V-8, but I am planning to stick to BMW or Mercedes in the future.

jdbtensai · October 2001

what happened to everyone?

mmcbride1 · October 2001

What kind of deals are people getting on 2001 sedans?

A buddy of mine wants one.

zscott1 · October 2001

Great buy on the 2001 S4. That is just barely more that what I paid for my 2001.5 A4

pat · October 2001

Here's your chance:

You may also drop by the Smart Shopper discussion at this link to respond: prlady1 "Talk to the Press" Oct 8, 2001 1:48pm

piles · October 2001

Leased a 2001 S4 in July for 39 months

$38,500 (Prem & Cold Weather Pkg)
$0 down

$560 a month including taxes

Prob could have done a little better but they had the car I wanted.

piles · October 2001

Are Snow tires a must? (live in Mass)

if so any suggestions? Approx how much $$$?

jbwcfp · October 2001

They are a must if you want to start and stop. Summer performance tires get stiff below 40 degrees, and lose traction. You could go with all seasons, but snow tires would be better on ice.
Jim

jdbtensai · October 2001

Where is everyone? Are there no S4 owners? Do you all go somewhere else? If so, where?

nyccarguy · October 2001

A friend of mine just picked up a silver/black '01 S4. He let me drive his new machine. WOW! The S4 is a blast to drive! Acceleration pinned me back into my seat. The Turbos kicked in relatively early in the rev range. The car is easy to launch and drive hard. The handling is brilliant. I love the stealthy, "wolf in sheep's clothing" styling. I melted into the seats. Driving this car for the first time made me feel as if this were my everyday car. The muted growl from the engine/exhaust is great too. I'm sure the '03 S4 will put up some serious numbers, but when the lease is up on my '00 Saab 9-3 in December '02 I'm going to try an find a 2002 leftover S4. I know I'll get bent over on depreciation, but I prefer the current styling to that of the '02 (A4).

jbwcfp · October 2001

I visited edmunds mostly before I got my s4 avant, now i go mostly to yahoo groups, biturboS4 group and through audiworld found a detroit group of audi owners, also at yahoo groups called dtw_audi. Audiworld is pretty good, but it is hard for me to keep up with all the posts. Where are you located?
Jim

spridledog · October 2001

I haven't posted in a while - remember me? Just wondering how you like your S4, now that you've lived with it for a while. I LOVE mine! Also, what have you done, or what do you plan on doing about winter wheels/tires? I just got new wheels and tires from The Tire Rack. I decided to go with 17" wheels, and Dunlop Winter Sport M2's. How 'bout you? Any quality problems so far? How many miles on the odometer? Happy driving...

jbwcfp · October 2001

I remember you! My car has been great so far, no problems at all. Only mods have been tinted glass all around, except windshield. I've got 7k miles, had them put mobil one in at the oil change.
A friend of mine owns a tire store, I talked with him last week about winter tires. He is going to a show next week, sema I think. He will investigate options for me. I will probably get winter tires for my avus rims and get new wheels in the spring for my Michelin sports. From what I have read @ biturbos4, it doesn't seem to make much difference what winter tires you choose, as long as you get some. Dunlops are on my list. I will know in a couple of weeks.
I'm going to the audi challenge this weekend at Nazareth speedway, combined with some business nearby. It will be a long trip for me, about 1200 miles round trip. What brand tires did yours come with?

spridledog · October 2001

Thanks for responding! Your S4 came with Michelins?! I thought they all came with Pirellis, like mine did. I'm just about at 5,000 miles, with NO problems whatsoever, so far. I recently drove to East Lansing - man the S4 is great on the freeway! So solid, buttoned-down, yet smooth at 85mph! The seats are great, too. When I first got it, I thought they might be too hard, but now I love 'em! After a long trip, my back felt great! Though I hate winter, I'm eager to see how my baby does in the snow with Quattro and the Dunlop Winter Sports...should be fun! Thanks and safe motoring....

varig · October 2001

I'm a new S4 owner, had it only a week. Still working my way through the owners manual. I had winter tires last year on my FWD 1980's Japanese sedan. Because the vehicle was so old and only had 13 inch wheels, I did not have many options when it came to winter tires. Ended up with Blizzaks which performed very well. Now that I have the S4, I am trying to decide between staying with Blizzaks or going with either Michelins, Dunlop, or Hakkaapilita . Is it best to go with a 16 or 15 inch wheel? I was planning to get both wheels and tires. In the owners manual it made a point about matching th bolts to the wheels and to talk to the Audi dealer about wheel recommendations. Anyone do this or can I get just as good info from TireRack? Any recommendations about which tire brand is the best? In my region, we get about 3-4 snowfalls per season. We mostly get freezing rain turning to snow so ice is a concern. Thanks.

spridledog · October 2001

Congrats on the new S4! Mine's pretty new, too - got about 5,000 miles on it, and I totally LOVE it! I did a fair amount of research on winter wheels/tires, so here's my somewhat educated opinion. First off, I bought from The Tire Rack, and just received my shipment last week. I was quite pleased with them. My order showed up in perfect shape. Many of the people are good there, but I'd ask for Eddie at extension 369. He's very knowledgeable and seems pretty honest, and he's a big Audi fan, and knows Audis very well. Give him a call. I actually got 17" wheels, because I LOVE the look, and didn't want to give that up! Technically, smaller wheels (15" or 16") cut thru the snow better, but that really only applies in relatively deep snow. Of course, smaller wheels/tires are cheaper, so that may be a factor in your decision. With the smaller sizes, you do lose some of the S4's great handling characteristics. Most of the time, I drive on plowed streets, so I chose the look and handling of the 17"ers over the smaller sizes, but that's a personal choice. All of the good, high performance snow tires are fine. The Blizzaks tend to be better in the snow, but don't handle/ride quite as well in the dry, and are a bit noisy. I went with the Dunlop Winter Sport M2's which both Audi and Eddie recommends. Supposedly, they are still great in the snow (although not quite the best) and provide the best dry handling. Truth is, you'd probably be happy with any of them. I haven't even put mine on yet, so I can't tell you how they really are! Hope this info is helpful. Enjoy your new ride, and really try to stick to the break-in period - take it easy on the engine for the first 1,000 miles - it's a good idea, in my opinion.

barresa62 · October 2001

Just wanted to go on record to say "I love the S4, especially the avant". If I had the money I'd own both my WRX and a S4. I'd probably do more rallying w/the WRX and save the S4 for all the other times. What a perfect world that would be...ok, I'll wake up now. :-)

Stephen

raavir · October 2001

2002 A41.8T at CAD $43000

or

2001 S4 at CAD $50,500

mmcbride1 · October 2001

It's only a $5,000 USD difference. Considering that the sticker prices are about $10k+ apart, the S4 seems to be the way to go.

raavir · October 2001

is there any difference between 2001S4 and 2002S4

mmcbride1 · October 2001

They are identical (which makes a 2001 S4 an even better bargain since it'll be less expensive than a 2002). 2002 will be the last year for this S4. Expect the next S4 out as a 2003 or 2004 model. Details are sketchy for the next S4, but some rumors have hinted at a V8 in the 350 hp range (although I'd rather see a higher output twin-turbo V6).

jbwcfp · October 2001

I just got my quattro quarterly from the quattro club, and they made reference to the new s4 retaining the twin turbo v-6. I'm not sure how accurate that may be, but I hope it's true.
Jim

jdbtensai · October 2001

i am going to be leasing one very soon. if i could get a deal like that i'd get it tomorrow!!!

nyccarguy · October 2001

I also heard Audi will retain the BiTurbo V6. A V-8 would add unnecessary weight. Definitely look for somewhere around 350 bhp. They'd have to increase the engine displacement & the output of the turbos (While keeping lag to a minimum) to acheive that number.

raavir · October 2001

does an S4 comes with xenons as standard

Audi S4 and S4 Cabriolet

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