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Comments
If raise prices like that imho they'll just lose further market share to BMW and Lexus.
You still try to reframe the arguments about Mercedes as being one of 'buying up' or 'prestige'.
But you are mistaken to say that Mercedes sales haven't grown as fast as Lexus because of price.
Mercedes sales haven't grown as fast a Lexus, because Lexus outsold Mercedes in market segments where, in general, they are considered competitors.
The fact that Mercedes cost more than it's competition doesn't make it a 'prestige' vehicle to anyone but the most uninformed of pluggerbrains. Their prices are higher because their costs are higher ... higher labor costs in Europe, old-style manufacturing processes, extrordinarily high warranty costs, high marketing to keep up the image. Every Mercedes buyer pays for this, over and over and over again.
Go ask IBM and Compaq what the heck happened to their PC businesses. BOTH were 'prestige', high priced product lines, the original innovators of their businesses. Dell ate their lunches in virutally every segment over price, quality and distribution. IBM sold their PC business recently to a Chinese company and HP bought Compaq some time ago. Intel, Apple and OpenSource movement do most of the product innovation in the PC busienss these days.
Mercedes is a great brand but a very so-so car company these days. The brand will probably survive for a very long time. The car company is a big question mark. Sure there is a 'new' CEO taking the reins, but we all have seen that in one company or another. Hopefully his focus on quality and getting rid of the ridiculous number of different platforms that MB produces for tee-tiny markets will help. But who knows, maybe it's too little too late.
Getting the styling right isn't magic uniquely owned by European car companies as evidenced by the bangled butts on BMWs and the wide-mouth-frog look on Audi's. There certainly isn't anything special styling-wise about the major car lines like C, E and S, though some of the low-volume niche cars are cute, except for the Maybach - which is MB's Porsche 928.
Shareholders and owners alike might be best served if Mercedes was owned and operated by a modern competitive manufacturing company like LG (China) or Samsung (Taiwan). Maybe there'd be a big, big market for a $25,000 fully loaded E-Class, like the new Hyundai's.
BTW, both LG and Samsung are Korean.
I rented a Kia Amanti a couple of months ago. Way too floaty and mushy for me...but an amazing amount of car for the money, and the interior appointments definitely beat the 300C I rented awhile back (by quite alot) . Hyundai has made big strides in initial quality, and is talking about introducing an upscale marque....I bet that 10 years from now ljflx and I will still be here, but we'll be on the defensive against a younger generation whose favorite high end luxury marque is Korean. Another 10 years on from then, and maybe it'll be a Chinese brand.
The assumption that all MB owners have had or will have the same type of experience you had.
The assumption that the only people who want a Benz are people that have never had one.
These are just guesses at best, which was my point. Just because you experience wasn't good, doesn't mean everyone else's won't be.
I didn't say that the average buyer didn't care about surveys, we all know that they do. I said that the average buyer doesn't care about any this profit/CEO talk being thrown around here like it is on the brain of the average car buyer.
M
Firstly, you didn't prove anything about a trend when it came to sales because you used the wrong months in your post. Secondly, you stated that the MB wasn't the choice brand for the high-end buyer and I proved that they were, even using your price range.
Now you're free to feel what you want about MB, thats your choice, but please don't act like its the truth because it isn't. Mercedes may not be the car company they were 10 years ago, but whether you like it or not they're still the #1 choice of the high end buyer, again using your price range of 50-80K. Now if you have numbers that say otherwise I'd love to see them.
We can go on and on about the corporate stuff all day long, but I'm not because no one here is going to convice me or prove to me that the average buyer cares about an automotive company's profits or who their CEO is. Period.
You state that poor reliability has no great effect on sales, yet MB is not growing as much as its competition, in a growing market. And you don't see the link ?
No, for the last time what I said was that I don't see this big downturn that keeps getting talked about here, when it comes to sales..due to reliability surveys. Does it ever occur to you that Mercedes' lineup is pricier than everyone else's in the mainstream luxury market an that despite this they have gone from 100K sales a year to over 200K from 1998 onwards, meaning that they did grow, just not at the rate of Lexus. Price has as much to do with this reliablity does. If you going to ignore price then forget surveys too, because they are both real-life reasons why MB can't be expected to win a sales race.
M
Ok, finally we seem to be coming to some sort of middle ground. I agree, they should have let him go a while back, but I have my own reasons for that. My reasons are more dealing with design changes that I feel aren't MB, but thats another story. That and the quality issue was too much for me to have any faith in his abilities to run DCX/MB anymore.
M
Mercedes sales haven't grown as fast a Lexus, because Lexus outsold Mercedes in market segments where, in general, they are considered competitors.
Well Lexus outselling Mercedes is twofold. First MB, to their own detriment misjudged the SUV market with the body-on-frame M-Class, which also was cost-cut to death to get it down to a Ford Explorer price, which gave it the worst quality scores in MB's history. This right here is the major reason Lexus outsells MB, because MB (and the Germans in general) were slow to spot the SUV trend and react. Score a huge one for Lexus.
The part about price is where I will simply never agree. The LS430 outselling the S-Class, is in part due to a price advantage. I mean take away everything else and you have a car that starts at 57K going against what was until April (S350 is entry level now) of this year a 77K car in the S430. All I'm saying is that has to account for something. How much so I don't know, but to say it doesn't matter is false.
To make a such a broad statement about Lexus outselling MB in general in segments where they are competitors isn't true either. While the ES330 is an entry-level luxury car, its mission and focus isn't really in tune with any other European or Japanese luxury car company's entry level products. In short, no one else is chasing the ES or even considers it a competitor, at least not enough of one to warrant producing such a uninvolving car.
The IS and GS, where MB and Lexus are more of direct competitors, MB outsells them easily so that statement about where they are both competitors doesn't really hold true when you look at all the models.
Something tells me that if MB hadn't dropped the ball in SUV, the sales race would be a lot more interesting because MB has the better sales on the car side already, in most cases where MB/Lexus prices line up more cleanly.
Does MB face an uphill battle of catching up because of the recently acquired rep for poor reliablity? Yes. Back in 1998 the word hadn't got out yet so they would have really had a chance to maintain their lead over Lexus in sales, if they had a better SUV and didn't wait until the 2006 model year to add a crossover.
M
Here is the thing though...people have been buying European cars for years and they aren't all "performance buyers" either. MB had their share of buyers that would put up with little things to own one, whether it was for prestige, gadgets, or to simply have an "SL" or "S-Class". MB, while traditionally attracting the type of buyer that wouldn't go near a Jaguar because of reliablity, has it share of these buyers too. Ones that just want a MB, despite the bad press.
The statement about low-level buyers doing the buying isn't true either when you look at the numbers. The S and E respectively are still the #2 and #1 selling cars in their classes, despite the bad press. Especially the press about the E-Class. The SL has its market sewn up as does the CLK, so it isn't just entry-level buyers who still buy or want a Mercedes. Did you look at sales numbers from the 50-80K segment, its over 100K for 2004. These are not entry-level buyers.
At some level, some buyers want what they want and don't care about all of this as much as others. How do we measure who does and who doesn't? I really don't know, but at some level this type of buyer exists for MB too otherwise their sales would have really dropped on a level like VW's have over the last few years. I agree that for some folks all the bad news is a big reason for pause, but for others it isn't. The new product launches, under a cloud and all are either selling up to the level expected or beyond in the case of the CLS. The key is for MB to fix this before this type of buyer is gone, like in the case of Jaguar. I think you would agree with that??
M
Status is made up of many things. BMW has never, ever been as strong as Mercedes when it comes to the status cars. BMW has always been stronger than Mercedes when it comes to the bottom end. This is why these two have co-existed for years and years, with MB always having the higher postion.
BMW had the chance to knock Mercedes off with all new designs since 2002 for every sedan that they make. However when you look at it the 7-Series was too controversial to knock the S-Class off, even in the final years the S-Class outsells the 7-Series both here and worldwide. That is stauts my friend.
An even bigger drop for BMW is the new 5-Series. While I like the car well enough, it isn't nearly the class leader the old one was when it came to driving. I still think it is the best handling/driving car but the design changes have made the press go cold on it, combined with a new M from Infiniti and it hasn't been all wins like the previous 5-Series. The E-Class, while not marketed as a "sports" sedan continues to be just as popular if not more so (I haven't looked the numbers this YTD), and has placed ahead of the 5-Series in any of the comparos I've seen both compared. Do I agree with that from a driver's standpoint, no, but still the comparo was BMW's strong hold.
The 3-Series will contine its traditional ways of beating the C-Class, but this is where BMW has always been the superior car, for those who want more sport.
The only image builder that BMW has at the high-end is the 6-Series, which is far more successful than the Z8 or 8-Series ever were, but at it costs much less than they did too. The 6 and of course the M versions of the 5 and 6-Series, they've always been red-hot cars for BMW. Mercedes on the other hand has a dozen ga-ga cars to counter this and open up for more wallets and open them much wider at that.
When you look at the real high-end BMWs like the 90's 8-Series and recent Z8 BMW doesn't even begin to have the "status" of MB at the upper end, they can't even get a foothold in in the specialty markets where MB builds a lot of their image. BMW is the only one of the 3 high-end German makes that doesn't have a supercar in their lineup like MB's SLR, Porsche's Carrera GT. Even Audi has one on the drawing board.
BMW being king on the lower half and MB at the upper and overall due to much more successful high-end products like the SL and CL, is pretty much the way it has always been, and I don't see that changing. This new S-Class according to those who are into European cars and post on the pro-European boards elsewhere say the new S is poised to demolish the only high-end car BMW has, the 7-Series.
The way I see it BMW has had their chance, only Lexus remains with a chance to knock of MB. This will have to take place on a worldwide scale and it will require more than just a super LS to do it. MB has many attractive products in all sorts of niches all over the world.
Status isn't just this stuff we talk (argue) about when it comes to corporate matters, the cars have an equal part in building status and that is where the others, BMW and Lexus don't cut it at the high end, because both of them have been doing much better than MB on the corporate side for years, yet even certain everyday MB products are still in control of their market segments, both here and overseas. Not to mention all the high-end models that you see in one form or another every month somwhere being compared to this and that. That is also status.
M
Yeah that was really something, and it was based on a problem a lot of Americans still have, not knowing how to drive. Right after that everything from Camrys to 300Es were claimed to have the same problem, yet not one car from any brand was found to have a default. Such nonsense nearly killed Audi in this country. They sold a little of 12K in 1992-1993 I think, but they hung in there. Now I think their problem is exposure, and of course bad rep in the reliability surveys. We were having a discussion about Audi's dealerships on another board. They never seem to have one in the same areas with MB/BMW/Cadillac/Lexus you know the usual "dealers row" area of your average metro area. I think Audi has an exposure problem that is just as big as their reliabilty problem. I actually think Audi could sell more cars if they had more dealers in strategic places, or at least in more places where other luxury cars brands are represented.
M
Well I like everything except that rear fender arch, so I too will have to see the car in person before making final judgement. In some pics it isn't as bad as in others. Of course darker colors hide it, but a Mercedes has to look good in silver so that is no good if they have to be in darker colors all the time. The interior appear to show a level of quality and detailing not seen in any Benz since the previous SL or W140 S-Class (at the beginning of its production, not the latter years). Yes it appears that the S500 will be a 90K car to start with 100K easily attainable, with the 335hp S450 being closer to 79-81K.
M
OK, I'm too lazy to go look on other boards...what are the major innovations that the new S is going to introduce (not counting the fenders )? Stroudman talked about the car being loaded with high tech.
Have you just acknowledged that Lexus outsells Mercedes in the Luxury Sedan LS vrs S....and SUV markets....but Mercedes outsell lexus in TAXI's so they are the better company?
This is the high end Luxury Marque board...Shouldn't the Mercedes Taxis and Mercedes As and Bs and Cs...be compared to ...Fords and Chevies and Kias?
Is all that generally true?
Do people think that if gas prices continue to head higher, big-engines will fade a bit? I still remember that BMW used to sell a 735 in the US (I know that they also once had a 728, but don't know if it was sold here), but now the smallest they sell here is a 4.8 liter 750i.
Maybe in a few years we'll look like Europe...lots of small-engined versions being sold.
Maybe high gas prices will cause some of the performance-lovers to change what they drive, and the way they drive.
I'd say that MB is still the top "marque" in this field. I think Rolls is far beyond most Lexus and MB buyers means. Perhaps the Rolls should be considered an Ultra High End Lux marque. Merc1 and some of the other posters are correct when they say people still aspire to owning an MB...I'm one of those people. Despite all of the bad press, I'd still be willing to buy one, and in fact will seriously consider the new S Class when it comes time to replace my new 05 LS. The sole qualifier will be the state of MB's quality at that time.
Mercedes still has the edge when it comes to allure over Lexus. People all over the world still think of MB as the Number One brand..Not everyone is as well informed as we are..I venture a guess to say that we are in the minority. Sure some people have heard about MB's quality issues, but they're still selling them at a decent clip..Keep in mind the S Class is a fairly old car now, so it really isn't fair to compare it to a recently refreshed LS430. A better comparison will come in 2006-7 with the release of the new S and LS460.
It's fair to say they've dipped in resale and quality, but it's hardly the death knell for them. It's clearly hurting their bottom line as well. But the one strength they do have is their brand name. At this moment, I'd say this is Merecedes' greatest asset. Imagine if this were some lesser brand such as Infiniti..I'd doubt they'd still manage to survive.
Competition is good for owners of all marques. Lexus is pushing MB on quality and other economics, while MB is pushing Lexus on designing cars that provoke an emotional response instead of a purely rational one. It'll be good to see what the '07 looks like..
SV
BMW did not have a V8 until the early-to-mid 90's. The 3.4 liter block in 735 and 535 was the largest they had (called "big six"). For a time, they welded two "small six" 2.5 liters together to make the V12 in the old 750i in the end of 80's and early 90's. People forget that a decade and a half ago, BMW was like Acura, a performance car maker without any V8 under its name. Market perception change quickly.
Thanks for the history lesson, I actually didn't know that. Maybe there is hope for Acura yet...it seems to me that people really look down on them because of the lack of a V8, but since they're supposed to have a V10 in the pipeline, maybe the view will change in time.
To chime in on the financial well being of the brands, imo it is logical that if the manufacturer is financially well off the lowly customer is going to be treated better as the dealer is able to get more support from the manufacturer....You can take that to the bank...The dealer associations are very powerful with the different state legislations and they get many bills passed that limit what a consumer can sew over Everyone keep the opinions flowing Tony
You mean BMW 7-series did not have V8 until 90s. First BMW V8 engine (alloy unit) was introduced in 1953 or 1954 (don’t remember exactly when). BMW 502, 503, and legendary 507 (Z8 inspiration) had V8.
I'm not sure what you are trying to say. . . that being an inefficient manufacturer somehow is an excuse for not selling well? The V6 S class took a five year hiatus; there was a '99 S320. I just don't get it, LS430 offers more luxury and more performance than S430 at a lower price point, somehow this excuse MB from being non-competitive?
While the ES330 is an entry-level luxury car, its mission and focus isn't really in tune with any other European or Japanese luxury car company's entry level products. In short, no one else is chasing the ES or even considers it a competitor, at least not enough of one to warrant producing such a uninvolving car.
That's patentedly false. Every manufacturer would love to have a midsize car in their lineup that can sell 100k units at $10k profit each. I30 was killed in competition; TL had to become more sporting to compete; S60/80/V70, 9-5 and A6 sell on being different (ie. accept much smaller market shares) and have wagon offerings. All these cars, plus the E class, used to occupy the ES market niche. ES simply cleaned their clock in the standard luxury sedan market, and they all have to find some theme to survive (and/or accept much smaller market shares). There are plenty mid-size car models made by the Europeans that are even less sporting than ES330; many of them are not even bothered to be brought over here simply because the ES dominance of the market. Don't tell me MB would not bring the sluggard E220 here if it could sell well in the face of ES330.
The IS and GS, where MB and Lexus are more of direct competitors,
Not true at all. IS (old model) and GS are much more sporting machines than th overwhelming majority of MB offerings in C and E class.
I didn't prove a thing by the numbers, you say ??? Obviously you are very selective in your posts... Did you not read syswei's post on the actual sales numbers between MB and Lexus going back 6 years ??? (let me help you, its post #10185). As to using the wrong month, well using the right month meant that YTD MB had sold about 100K cars while Lexus had sold about 81K cars. There... Happy now ? But, here are the FULL numbers, not the selective one you'd like to trumpet: Lexus has sold ~170K cars + trucks YTD, while MB has sold ~120K cars + trucks YTD (see post #10088), a difference of +50,000 cars and trucks, and we are only half-way through the year.... Who is selling more luxury vehicles in the NA market ? The numbers tell the story clearer than any hype or spin....And please don't tell us how expensive MBs are over Lexus - they are expensive because.... yea, you get it. Excuses...
Any objective one. Isetta was what kept BMW alive in those years. We would not have 2002ii, much less any 3 series if BMW folded in the 50's. That's kinda important to the history of BMW, don't you think?
But any respectable enthusiast is aware about legendary BMW 507!
There were only 252 (not 252,000) 507 ever made, and BMW lost money on every single one made. I would not call that a success; it was hardly a production car, with such a miniscule sales.
Back to the original point, modern BMW did not have a useable production V8 until the early to mid-90's. What does the 507's 3.2 liter 150hp (pre-1970's exggerated horses) engine that had been out of production for close to 40 years have anything to do with rebutting the point that I was making?
There was no M version of the 3.4 liter "big six." All subsequent six-cyl engines derived from the "small six," which displaced only 2.5-2.8 liter back then in the 80's and early 90's.
Agree with the first part. Not sure about the second part. The RX is doing incredibly well in UK. Lexus has only just arrived in Europe as a brand identity distinct from Toyota, starting from UK.
>>> The BMW we talk about today is the post-1970 (after the 2002ii)
Post 10292:
>>> We would not have 2002ii, much less any 3 series if BMW folded in the 50's.
>>> That's kinda important to the history of BMW, don't you think?
Indeed I agree with your last post which actually contradicts your previous one (10286).
Models produced by BMW before 1970 had impact on post 70s. BMW 2002 was evolution of 1500/1600/1800 model line. Z8 was inspired by BMW 507.
I mentioned V8 engine as a historical fact.
Agreeing with my last post you contradicted your earlier post . . ."what kind of historian/enthusiasts would care about the Isetta" whereas my two posts did not contradict each other at all. The BMW we know today is the post-2002ii BMW (the era of BMW sport sedans that many of us love). The 252 (252, not 252 thousand!) V8 engines that found their way into 1956 and 1957 BMW 508 does not invalidate my earlier argument that in the 70's, 80's and early 90's, when BMW reputation was being built, it did not even have a production V8 engine. That is a historical fact.
What's your definition of "presence" and "a long time"?
http://auto.consumerguide.com/Auto/Used/reviews/full/index.cfm/id/2118/act/usedcarreviewsh- - - owall/
I never said: “what kind of historian/enthusiasts would care about the Isetta”.
Read it more carefully. It says “ Isetta sale volume”.
Big difference.
Probably I’m wrong about historians the bookworm type.
You have every right to feel that way of course. Doesn't mean that everyone else will have the same experience or feels that way, that was my point.
Survey after survey says MB's status is nowhere what it USED to be and you are the only one that stills says it's the same. Is this the power of ONE?
So now we're down to surveys about status or is it reliability? Too funny.
Rolls-Royce is number one in status overall, but that isn't the group of cars we're talking about. Rolls is with Ferrarri, Aston-Martin etc. MB is a mainstream luxury brand and of those (MB,Lexus,BMW,Audi,Cadillac,Infiniti,Acura,Lincoln, Jaguar) they are still #1 in status.
M
Well no you haven't proven a thing to me. I'm sorry Oac if you couldn't prove you initial point about MB not being the brand of choice for the high-end buyer. Because that wasn't true, you reverted back to the fact the Lexus outsells MB overall, yet no where in the history of this board did I refute that. Never. How could I? Then you stated that MB and Lexus were "about even" in car sales, yet you padded Lexus' sales by a month by using an outdated link about MB's sales. But now I'm being selective because you got the data wrong? Come on now. Now you're quoting another post about sales figures for the past 6 years to say something about MB's growth when again this had nothing to do with your claim about MB not being the brand of choice for the high-end buyer. I mean honestly how much spinning is going to be done to cover up the fact that your initial claim was proven incorrect?
M