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Whether an LS600h will have the same "statement" quality when it comes to environmentalism is dubious, though, since the mpg will still be worse than some compact/subcompact ICE cars.
My LS is an 01 The new LS has all the features you mentioned and much more. I am talking only about the LUXURY Marques...S..LS..7
STYLING...I have long thought the Mercedes was tops in that area..However in recent months I have grown Tired of their look...I think it is a mistake for them to have the same look on their cheap cars as they do on the S Class. I am very comfortable with the much more conservative styling of the LS, I truly don't want or need a flashy car, Not a standout on the Beautiful or Ugly side is just right for me.
Driving Characteristics A very nice short Turning radius of 37 Ft. Plenty of power, and good handling is what LS offers...It does not offer the BMW Driving experience but then how often would most of us use the full extent of the BMW Capabilities...I would rather not trade the Nice comfortable Quiet ride of an LS for the 7s handling, which I would never fully use anyway. I know that LS currently matches or betters the Acceleration of The S and 7 even with less horses, I suspect that is also true of braking, and am not sure about Slalom but I doubt there is much difference especially with the shorter turning capabilities of the LS.
Reliability..An area that most German Car Guys don't usually add to their Preferences...But I do.
It is a small thing but in 5 years I have never had to change a light bulb of any kind inside or outside. the only repairs I have needed were paid by Lexus...An Amp and an outside mirror that would sometimes stick when opening or closing.
I don't personally like cookie cutter cars in different sizes. But, it would appear that quite the opposite is developing. If anything, the new S-Class's styling has somewhat distanced itself from the other Mercedes models . . . but, on the other hand, the Lexus lineup looks more and more similar all the time.
I am very comfortable with the much more conservative styling of the LS, I truly don't want or need a flashy car, Not a standout on the Beautiful or Ugly side is just right for me.
Well, I agree that the LS is NOT a beautiful standout and NOT ugly either. The word "conservative" is the word that Lexus fans almost always seem to use for the styling, instead of "boring" or "plain". It sounds better, I guess.
I would rather not trade the Nice comfortable Quiet ride of an LS for the 7s handling
The BMW comparison doesn't negate the fact that the new S-Class also has an incredibly nice and quiet ride.
Reliability..An area that most German Car Guys don't usually add to their Preferences...But I do.
Mercedes has a long history of reliability. Statistically, in recent years, it has dipped slightly, but the truth is that NO ONE has the reliability of a Toyota/Lexus. So does that mean that Lexus becomes the only car to consider? Or that if someone chooses any other car, they suddenly don't care about reliability? That's an absurd argument always thrown at the German car fans and owners, as if to imply that they don't give a hoot about reliability because they didn't buy a Lexus. That, my friend, is a bunch of . . . well, you know.
TagMan
My '99 LS has 110K miles. Besides the normal maintainance services (last was at 90K miles), normal wear n tear items (brake pads, oil changes & tires), the only issue was a sticking mirror fixed at Lexus expense. That is 7 years (Nov 13, 1998 start date), 110,000 miles later. The car drives like new. The leather seats are unblemished, no rips, no tears, no rattles, no squeaks, none whatsoever.... The sound proof is outstanding, even when my music is loud (as my teenagers often do turn up the volume), the engine is still silent as ever. Just an incredible car all around. As to styling: it is solid, graceful and timeless.... I fully expect my '03 LX470 to be equally outstanding in reliability. So far so good.... That is why I keep going back to Lexus products, and why I am in line for an LS460 SWB model. I put my money where my mouth is.
TagMan
C,mon now, it's not as though the entire "non-Lexus" world spends all its time in the shop facing vehicle nightmares, and ONLY the Lexus folks are happy with their car's reliability.
In fact, the "non-Lexus" world might suggest that the "daily" driver should be a fullfilling experience, given that it's driven so often. Why save the fun just for the weekend?
Awesome look ! Now if all S-class looks like that, the LS would not hold a candle to the S-sedans, IMO....
Let me try this one more time. Here is the line from Len that started you off on this tirade:
But if you have a lower cost to build you use that to your advantage on pricing and they continue to have a huge edge on the Germans in build cost.
Len said absolutely nothing about people buying cars because of fascination with Toyota's profits. We are talking (really speculating at this point) about how the new LSes will be priced as against the Ses and the 7s (and the A8s for that matter). The point is that if Company A can build a car for $50,000 that can compete in the marketplace against another car from Company B that costs B $60,000 to make, Company A can potentially charge anywhere up to $10,000 less than Company B and still stay in business. If A can sell as much as it wants at the same price as B sets for its product, it will. But if it can't meet its sales goals at that price, A can come down and sell the car for anywhere between $50,000 to $60,000 that it needs to to get the job done.
The relevancy right now? Len has been suggesting that Toyota has been moving up the price of the LS towards the S and the 7 for the last few years, and will be doing it again even more forcefully with the new versions of the LS it will be introducing. So if his surmise is correct, THE CUSTOMERS WHO ACTUALLY BUY THESE CARS WILL BE EXPERIENCING A SHRINKING OF THE PRICE DIFFERENTIAL BETWEEN THE BRANDS. Understandably, if someone is only interested in the history, or the technology of these cars, PRICING IS IRRELEVANT. But for those people who are actually looking at buying one of these cars, PRICING STRATEGIES ARE EXTREMELY RELEVANT.
Now, you just have to accept that some people who frequent this forum are actually mostly interested in possibly purchasing one or more of these cars and want to learn about them. Others may be more interested in the business side of building these cars. Still others (and I assume you fall in this category) are only interested in appreciating these cars for their individualized approaches to beauty and amazing implementation of technology. Hopefully you agree that there is room in this forum for all of these folks.
Pricing is very relevant to people in the first two categories. Pricing is totally irrelevant to people who only fall in the third. [For example, the fact that MB is dropping the price of the S500 by about $2K likely is not very significant to your interest in the car; for people in the first two categories it may be VERY interesting.]
As long as the context of the discussion is "High End Luxury Marques", a mention of pricing strategies available to a manufacturer about to introduce a new HELM car is indeed relevant and appropriate - and to some of us, even (dare I say it?) interesting.
I rest Len's case.
CR has recently upgraded the 5 series to satisfactory reliability.
Writing from my own experience, I have had 3 BMW's since 1993 and have only had to have regular oil changes paid for by BMW, and of course, new tires.
I don't believe I am the lucky exception to the rule here.
BMW had a reliability problem. They listened. They fixed it.
IF,IF,IF,IF,IF . . . his surmise is correct . . . then I must say the "value" equation would be altered!
Now, IF, IF, IF, IF, IF the "value" factor changes, then we can further surmise that the Lexus buyer will weigh less on the "value" as it relates to the historic price advantage. That, therefore leaves the "other" factors related to the buying decision.
Well, that leaves "reliability" itself. That's pretty much the majority of what you hear from the "Lexus camp" nowadays. To me, that's important, but it's "thin ice", if it becomes the ONLY factor by itself. The other HELM's are generally considered reliable "enough" to be considered by prospective buyers, that's for sure, and the styling and/or handling advantages of the other HELM's need to be considered, of course. The "new" model factor always helps, so we can expect that to assist the sales of the S-Class and the LS for a while.
In the long run, I think Lexus can in fact close the price gap, somewhat, due to their historic sales momentum, social acceptability of their cars, and "reliability" statistics . . . but I do not think that those factors are enough for Lexus without a "noticeable" price advantage. If the prices were about the same . . . yes, there would be those that would still buy the Lexus, of course, but, IMO, those numbers would SHRINK, and more buyers would then choose the other HELMs as the preferred choice.
Let me conclude, though, by saying that I do NOT actually believe that Lexus will give up their price advantage, and that they KNOW very well what their formula for success is here . . . and you can expect them to continue with their winning and BRILLIANT formula for years to come. Hence, the Lexus price advantage MUST stay.
TagMan
On the business side there is another important thing to consider here. Many of the same people own these prestigious brands as dealerships. But the Lexus dealerships are far more profitable than the MB dealerships. There are a number of reasons for this including the much better price elasticity Lexus gives their dealers on MSRP to dealer cost. We all should know well the power of the retailer in the distribution chain of any business segment and cars are no exception. I would expect the MB dealer network to bring a lot of pressure on MB for changes in the years to come and they will use Lexus as a big wedge.
Give me the current Audi A8 all day long over any new body style S class.
I understand your points that are well taken, but I still think that the price advantage needs to be perceived by the buyer. Even if it translates to leasing programs that favor the Lexus for high residual values and smaller depreciation payments. So, yes, as the gap might close, there would still be buyers. Heck, if the Lexus was MORE expensive there would still be buyers (enough of them? that would need to be determined IF IF IF the gap is truly closed) . . . but in my opinion, the wider the gap (less expensive the Lexus is) = more Lexus units sold. And I believe Lexus will continue to embrace that (price advantage) strategy.
OMG, I need to be thinking about football!
TagMan
????????????????????????????????????????????? :confuse:
I not sure of the exact year, but I think it was somewhere between model years 1996 (when the new W210 came out) and 1998 (when they switched from the I6 to the V6). They wanted to be able to advertise it to appeal to a larger audience, and decided to cut the MSRP. I know when I bought an E in '94 there was a ton of negotiating room, but when I got my next one in '98 they were selling very close to MSRP, although the net price did not go up very much.
Time for Football - my predictions Steelers and Panthers. Let's see.
Broncos 3
. . . at the half . . .
I'm a Raiders fan (which can prove challenging at times), so I HATE Denver. This is good.
BTW, thanks for confirming my fuzzy memory about the MB pricing constraints. Your explanation is appreciated.
TagMan
By the way, I ran into a Lexus family at a party recently. The ol’ man drove an LS and mom had a GX. She was on her second tranny and it needed to be taken in again for the same symptom the first one had. She said when idling at a stop it felt like a car was tapping her rear bumper.
OK . . . a moment between football games . . .
Looks like Len and I are happy campers so far with the Steelers big win. But, I'm looking for Seattle to win the next one, which puts me out on a limb a little, but that's OK.
In the bigger picture, I'm sorry that I haven't considered that the A8 is that significant a competitor to the Lexus LS.
Interesting about that GX, I guess they cant all be perfect. Probably an '03.
M
A tuned IS350 that was on display - the info read "well over 300hp":
cont....
cont....
Love this shot!
Such a beautiful car this Quattroporte is. Just gorgeous.
cont...
This is what the Maybach should have been from the start, but without the white leather!
cont.....
S65 AMG:
SLR:
CLS55 AMG:
S550:
SL55 AMG:
M
Aston-Martin:
Ripade Concept:
I'm not thrilled about AM having taken an DB9 and splicing in 2 more doors, but it did make for a lot of oohs and ahhs.
Lamborghini Murcielago Roadster:
M
Audi:
Q7:
The S8 with the big grille everyone hates and one regular A8:
RS4:
S6:
BMW:
A few more from Mercedes-Benz:
M
M
I definitely will be checking out the Q7 next time around.
As you know, I don't go near as far back in this forum as some of you other posters, but I've probably posted enough by now for you to get a sense of some of my views and opinions, as I have gotten a sense of yours. Your respect and admiration for the Mercedes line particularly has been interesting to me right out of the gate. Would you mind elaborating a bit for me as to the origins of this? I'd appreciate it.
TagMan
First of all, thank you for your excellent write-up on the auto show. The pictures were an unexpected plus! I'm excited to hear Mercedes is offering the S320 CDI. I only hope they can make it clean enough to pass MA emissions standards. It is a crime that these cars are not allowed to be sold when oil is in short supply!
I wonder if the S320 will be decontented to some degree like the E320 CDI. I would prefer a S Class without all these fancy electronics that will likely cause trouble over the long term. I'm almost certain a MB is as mechanically sound as any other car. The complexity of some of the new car's systems is what has me worried. I wouldn't mind an S Class with a standard suspension as opposed to an Airmatic one.
While I don't like the wheel flares, the new S Class has a great presence. It looks substantial and solid. I'm not the greatest fan of the center cluster, but I like the fact all the controls are flush with the surface.
Having seen the S in person, do you think it looks better or worse than in the pictures?
Thanks again for the reviews!
Sam
The Lexus strategy will be to price the LS 460 below the S-Class.
Why should they change a formula that admittedly has worked so well?
You are absolutely correct. One doesn't have to own an LS to figure out what is so logical.
I wonder though how relevant trade shows like this really are. They are hugely expensive, only a relatively small number of civilains (non-vendors, non industry types) actually attend (and many of them are just lookers), etc. The fact that a D-C exec drove a three wheeled motorcycle up some stairs last year may have caused a stir but I don't think sold a single car. I think that the manufacturers move more iron at the local or regional shows where dealer people are present.
All others are ???????? :P . Gimmee a break.
It's Steelers and Seahawks.
M
M