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"a luxury car is about an air of exclusivity, that not everyone can own one." Maybe that's the case with some -- maybe it explains those willing to pay 60+ for a 6 cyl. E -- but I couldn't give a fig how "exclusive" the car I drive might be. I bought my current car (an LS430) because it is amazingly comfortable, it gives my family lots and lots of room, I love the luxurious interior (where I spend my time), I love the stereo, the power, the rep for reliability, etc. Don't take this personally, but I couldn't care less what you drive, or whether you like what I drive. If I wanted to drive something rare, I would have bought an Aztec. Nobody in his right mind would buy a 5 series in Washington if "exclusivity" were the goal; they are on every corner. People buy them b/c they are great cars. I think the editors at Edmunds are operating on some dangerously misguided conceptions. Thoughts?
I'm not the only one who wonders about that risk:
"In an apparent reference to DaimlerChrysler's Mercedes-Benz line, [GM "North America chief" Robert] Lutz said 'a German company' is making a mistake by marketing luxury cars in the $20,000 to $30,000 range so the company can cover its fixed costs. He made his comments while seated next to Dieter Zetsche, Chrysler group CEO."
http://www.autonews.com/article.cms?articleId=40298&a=a&bt=Traverse+City
I say, "Want exclusivity? Buy an Aztek! You'll be the only one on your block!"
M
Hey, merc! Take it over to the "Mercedes vs. Lexus: Old School vs. New School! Which is Better?" forum. This WAS a nice, respectable forum...
;-)
"even Automobile - when it chose the LS430 as the best sedan over $40k - made a statement that went something like 'it was for those who were secure',"
and a claimed quote from another forum,
"I forgot which British car magazine, it was around 1997 or so...but one of the articles said that [Lexus products] were cars for people 'with no imagination and culture'."
Assuming that these are both reasonably accurate quotes, does this tell us something about American vs. British "baggage" re luxury cars? Maybe Americans are more likely to assess a vehicle on terms less-weighted by prejudices regarding a marque being up "upstart," etc? (Sounds reasonable, since our country itself began as an "upstart.")
And if *that* holds, then we can perhaps understand ONE reason why new luxury marques would focus on the U.S. for their efforts (on top of the U.S. being one big, rich market)...
Of course, none of this means that there aren't Americans who are willing to pay more for "heritage" (or even shell $$$ out for a British "title") because of their insecurities. Just, perhaps, not as high a percentage as in other markets.
I've said that many times before, not everyone wants a car like an LS430, no matter what the price.
You and others always point to how insecure people who buy anything but an LS430 are. The way I see it Lexus owners are the insecure ones. Why, because no other group constantly points out why they bought their cars and how everyone else is just plain dumb for buying anything else. If the LS430 was such this car then the S-Class and 7-Series would cease to exists. Why is a person insecure if they don't want a copy of a previous Benz that doesn't provide any excitement behind the wheel other than isolation? Is it possible for someone to simply NOT LIKE the LS430 and want something that doesn't look like and drive like a Avalon?
adu1,
I don't know when you arrived here, but look back through this topic. I've kept it going all this time and feel as though it is mine now.
M
1. I never said, nor do I believe, that "anyone who pays 60K for any car other than LS430 is an idiot." There are MANY cars that offer significantly different trade-offs that I can easily understand. You might want an X-5 or a 540i. Maybe you want a convertible or a coupe. You may like the styling of the Q better. What I DON'T understand is paying anything close to that much for an E class (AMG aside). I know you will contend that it is "sportier" than the LS; I have driven the car (current version) and I'm just not buying it. You want sport, get a 5. The E is a nice car with a luxury-car ride, but it is WAY over priced. There may be reasons for paying that much beyond a religious devotion to pedigree and "tradition," but I can't fathom them and you haven't mentioned them. And no, I would never call anyone an idiot for a purchasing decision, but I think I have the right to doubt its wisdom. I'm a smart person, but boy have I made some purchasing mistakes in my time.
2. Where did I get the pricing? Edmonds said "pricing starts at around $53,000 for the E320 and can climb to dizzying heights if you tack on some of the above-mentioned options." You had an exchange with someone on another board about his $68k E500. A ridiculous price, as even you understood on that board. So I extrapolated that a semi-loaded E 6cyl. would run about 60k. I may be off by a 1,000, but I don't think so.
3. Even if I am off by a k or 2, the point (i.e., the secondary point I was trying to make) is the same. The E is vastly overpriced when compared to it competition. I can't think of an explanation other than DC can get away with it because people fawn over the 3 pointed star.
4. The MAIN point of the message had little to do with the E (which I like, apart from the price) but more to do with Edmund's observation that people buy luxury cars for the "look-at-me" factor. I didn't, and I don't know anyone personally who did. While I am sure ljflx is right -- some people do (and that is pathetic) -- but I think most buy these cars b/c they like them and enjoy driving them, not b/c they want heads to turn. When you buy one, let me know the rationale.
A E320 DOES NOT COSTS 61K. PERIOD. The E320 starts at $47,615, and the E500 starts at $55,515.
You're telling me to go by facts yet you take a statements like "an climb to dizzying heights if you tack on some of the above-mentioned options" as fact, totally ridiculous.
Yes I contend the E, especially the new E500 is sportier than the LS430. The LS430 by design is an isolation chamber.
No matter how politely you word it, whether you're questioning someone's "wisdom" or whatever you're still basically saying they're stupid for purchasing anything but an LS430.
" Even if I am off by a k or 2, the point (i.e., the secondary point I was trying to make) is
the same. The E is vastly overpriced when compared to it competition. I can't think of an
explanation other than DC can get away with it because people fawn over the 3 pointed
star."
I say you're off by more than 2K, try about 10K+ for the E320 (the car you claimed costs 61K). As far as people "fawning" over the three pointed star well don't feel slighted because the chromed "L" doesn't get as much respect. Lexus fans are always reaching for something. Taking something that Edmunds says and then getting it wrong is the perfect example of this.
You don't think anyone has ever purchased a Lexus for the look-at-me factor? Come on now.
M
M
I don't know when you arrived here, but look back through this topic. I've kept it going all this time and feel as though it is mine now.
M"
Does this mean no one else should post (or pose possibly interesting questions)?
Further explanation of your intent in writing the words quoted above from post # 1560 would be most instructive (for ALL of the non-merc1 readers of the forum, I'm sure)...
Everyone is welcome to post here, and no one owns the discussion at all. The only rules are, well, they are all in the Membership Agreement which is linked on the left side of this page.
Chief among the terms of that agreement is that civil and respectful discourse be maintained at all times.
Let's remember that we are discussing vehicles and that personal slams, digs and comments of that sort are neither necessary nor appropriate here.
Thanks.
Pat
Sedans Host
I'm also sure that there are many LS430 buyers as well as other Lexus model buyers that are quite insecure.
Nealm1 - coudn't agree more with your logic.
Come on, folks give it a rest. This is pointless and certainly isn't going to convince any reader (or poster) to believe what you are are trying to say.
Let's move on.
"Pricing starts at around $53,000 for the E320 and can climb to dizzying heights if you tack on some of the above-mentioned options." Not me, Edmunds.
See that? PRICING STARTS AT 53K FOR THE 320. Not me, Edmunds.
Undoubtedly you know more than Edmunds about MB's pricing. Undoubtedly you are right and Edmunds is "totally ridiculous." I'm just sure that you're right and EVERYBODY else is wrong.
Before you become start hyperventilating, learn the facts.
And maybe Lexus IS making greater inroads into some European markets. The U.S. was their principal focus (and the initial cars reflected that) but, with the marque doing so well here, perhaps they're now able to make greater efforts there.
And I think that driver *was* right...!
whotheman
As one would expect that M-B and BMW would. They've had quite a head start. At *least* as importantly, as stated above, Lexus focused on the U.S. *first* with its product development (and U.S. tastes & needs often DO vary from European ones). As for the future...
(Also, no one should believe that it is somehow in the character of the "traditional" British to be disinterested in automobiles that diverge from pre-existing norms. For example, interestingly -- if admittedly "ancient history" -- CITROENS were even *manufactured* in England through the year 1955.)
Under "Charges You Should Question," they say:
"Teflon coating. No longer needed because of clearcoat paint used on cars today."
Unless, of course, Mercedes somehow uses a remarkably inferior paint process at the factory for its new E-Class... (Seems unlikely.)
I'd say, FIGHT IT!
The URL is:
http://www.edmunds.com/advice/buying/articles/43091/page009.html
While I was there I got to see one of the "royalty" RR's on the road leading into central London from Heathrow. Incredible how long it was and how high the roof line was. Definitely a highly customized RR. But it was empty.
ljflx,
Nope, I'm not. But the difference with you guys is that you all constantly put down Mercede-Benz as the main reason you bought a Lexus. You and others can't mention Lexus without downing MB in the same sentence. I don't see nearly as many MB people downing Lexus during every breath as much as you guys do.
nealm1,
Now you fancy yourself as being so smart yet you can't or won't do the simple research by going to www.mbsua.com and checking the prices listed there in plain ink, but you'll take Edmunds word for it on a test drive when the ACTUAL prices for the new E were not KNOWN to them. Amazing.
How can you claim the E is so expensive when you don't know the FACTS? FACT is the E320 does not start it 53K, it starts at $47,615 (for the last time). Why don't you do some reasearch before tying to tell me I don't know what I'm talking about.
M
I just went to mbusa.com. Yep a E320 has an MSRP of $47,616. I built my own. I had blue metallic paint with charcoal leather(very nice looking!). I added the sport package, the sunroof/premium sound package, 4 zone climate control, keyless entry, motorola phone, parktronic, and the power sunshades. Basically everything I would want in this car.
Final price: $62,232. Yikes!
I did the same thing with the E500, and the price came out to $66,147.
Now what is wrong with this picture? Why would I go with a V6 E320, when I could go with an E500 with the same exact options, for 4k more. Are they fooling their customers into thinking they are getting a better value, when they are actually paying more for the options?
Merc1 - You are MB's policeman that is for sure and I think anyone who reads the boards knows it. No disrespect intended on that comment but if you don't see the criticism of Lexus in MB buyers posts, thereby in my mind justifying their purchases, you are kidding yourself. Your sensitivity is towards MB thus you tend to see things in that light. It's natural. But one thing I'll tell you - as a friend - is that when you bring the LS430 and an Avalon together in the same sentence you look bad and its also obvious your emotions, and not your normal logic, are doing the talking.
Nealm1 - went over to the E-class board now that the subject has been focused there somewhat and saw an interesting post. Someone over there wants the MB E-500 to deliver everything the LS430 delivers - great ride, luxury interior, super nav system, luxury seats etc. Now the E-500 has a harsher noisier ride, costs about the same, has noticably less luxury, is smaller and has that awful command system. The poster even mentions that Lexus delivers the desired features. But the person still wants an MB because it has the MB badge. This is exactly what your posts are about.
Lastly - I drove the old E-430 several times and thought it was a bad car - not in general terms but relative to its price. It's interesting now that the new model is out how many auto mags have thrashed the old car but never did so when it was a market car.
I configured both the E320 and the E500 identically.
The thing I found hard to accept was that options were cheaper on the E500 than the E320, so the price difference was very small. The only reason for this in my mind, is to fool the unsuspecting buyer into thinking they are paying less, but in fact they end up paying more for options.
"It's interesting now that the new model is out how many auto mags have thrashed the old car but never did so when it was a market car. "
That happens with most new car introductions. Why do you and others always try to link such things to MB only? Isn't a new car supposed to improve on the old car's flaws? Wouldn't that make the older car's flaws more apparent?
The difference I see between say you/nealm1 and other Lexus folks is that you try to make it seem like MB's are just junk and that the LS430 is heaven-sent and anyone paying over 55K or so for any other car is making this terminal mistake and that they can't possibly have any sense. I see more MB owners that are understanding of how one could purchase a Lexus than the other way around. Remember V12power, he didn't down Lexus one bit in his logic behind purchasing a Benz.
carnaught,
Yeah sure. Why don't you read what this debate was/is about before you accuse me of anything. You talk about making things personal then you make jokes about what I drive, typical.
M
M
I have a feeling that people dont option out the E320, because the options are so damn expensive!
M
I'll give you my hosest opinions here:
MB's - great cars - badly overpriced and sell at those price points due to image. S-55 and the likes should never come into discussions on ordinary car boards because they are not mainstream cars. Stick to ordinary MB models. A Lexus no cost sport option should not be compared to a very expensive AMG option. When they bring in L-tuned that will be a different story but guaranteed it will be a fraction of AMG's cost. MB quality is dissapointing for cars at those price levels. Look at V-12 power and others. They actually got rid of the cars - stayed with MB but they must have a lot more tolerance for reliability issues than I or many Lexus buyers ever would.
Lexus cars - hate to say this because it's against my constitution - but given their quality and reliability they might actually be underpriced. Great cars. Don't go overboard on handling because it's not needed and rarely used anyway.
automags - they forget buyers of lux cars live in big cities with congested highways. Comparing cars as if we are going to drive on racetracks is crazy.
"Why don't you read what this debate was/is about before accusing me of anything...."
There ya go again!
Lighten up, man.
Rarely will ANYONE, except those with absolutely so much money that they cant keep track of it, compare purely on a class by class basis. They have a set price limit...and they try not to go over that.
I do not know how you seem to think that the SL and the SC are competitors. There is a $30,000 price difference!!! Sure they both are two seat convertibles(lexus back seats dont count). But if that is the case, why dont we compare the Pontiac Bonneville and the Mercedes S class? What about the Camry Solara and the CLK430 vert?
How many people do you know, even those looking at luxury cars, that will cross shop cars that are $30,000 apart?
Lexus' cars underpriced, thats about the most ridiculous thing you've yet said.
wishnhigh1,
You think so huh? Do you even know what "comparision" he was talking about. If you mean someting dealing with the S55 then you're as lost as he is because I haven't mentioned the S55 in this round. Period. If the SC and SL aren't competitors then the S430/S500 and LS430 aren't either right? Don't they have a 20K base price difference too?
M
I'll leave you with one last comment and I'm really done with this.
I've read your posts calling the LS430 and other Lexus models boring so many times I need a calculator to keep track of them. When Lexus does bring in the handling and you can't make the boring comment - like on an IS - you say it lacks luxury. I read today in a post of yours that the LS430 rides like an Avalon - I hope you're not serious about that one but given your dislike of Lexus I wouldn't be surprised. Yet unless something changed very recently you've never driven an LS430. So how is it that you are such an expert on it being a boring car - in your opinion of course. Well I thought about that and the only time I came across the boring comment in any article was when a NY Times reporter preferred a Maxima over the LS430 for whatever her ridiculous reasons. Now where did I read the boring posts - yours - countless times and many S-class buyers most of whom didn't even take the LS430 out for a test ride. V-12 power was one of the few who did and I'll respect his opinion but obviously he was looking for a lot more growl and power as his name implies. Another honest poster agonized over the decision of S vs. LS for months and went with the S - which later gave him lots of problems and he had to trade it in - due to style preference. If I remember right he even put a deposit down on an LS430. So for all your boring comments - you've made them with no basis - other than hearsay - most of which came from German car lovers who seem - imo - to need to justify their purchases by thrashing Lexus.
Enough said - I'm tired of this as well but from a totally different viewpoint than you.
The SC430 doesn't have anywhere near the technical specification or equipment of the SL. Peirod. The SC430 is outdone at nearly everything.
Sure you're read where I've compared cars with widely ranging price tags, but I thought we were talking about the E-Class and LS430, which is how this latest "discussion" got started.
Yep, I'll knock the IS300 till they redesign it. If Mercedes made a car that different from the rest of their lineup, you and others would be all over it for days on end. Yet Lexus makes a small sports sedan with a Toyota Corolla interior and it's some type of god-send. Sure the car is a good handler, but compared to the ES300 it's interior is a joke for a Lexus.
"I read today in a post of yours that the LS430 rides like an Avalon."
My friend please go back and READ what I said. I said it LOOKS like an Avalon, I said nothing about how it rode. But since you bring it up, are they really that far apart in ride, I mean Toyota's philosphy is pretty much the same across the board. Of course the LS430 would and should ride better, i.e even more isolated. I never agreed with any NY Times reporter about their preference of a Maxima over a LS430, that wasn't me.
Lastly if you havent' seen the word boring when it comes to Lexus' car you aren't reading the right sources. Boring is almost mentioned when talking about the ES300 and LS430.
Like so many times before we're at total opposite ends of this, but you can't tell me you haven't seen where reviewers constantly harp about Lexus' cars being non-involving and boring. Have you seen the latest review of C&D on the ES300? "Not able to invoke a hint of excitement" or something to that extent was said.
M
You're right I haven't driven the LS430, but answer me this has it truly become any more involving from the previous 1995-2000 model? I've driven that model more than a few times and I haven't seen anywhere that the LS430 has become so much sportier relative to the previous model.
I'll ask you this just like I asked wishinhigh, why compare the LS430 to the S-Class since the price difference is so great, what makes the SC430 vs SL500 debate so different from the S430/S500 vs LS430 debate?
M
I could somewhat understand its high price from the base model because of its advance technology, features and such ilk. The E class is not a 5 series and not trying to be but the car is more involved with road feel, outside noises and sporty character.
The E class looks like it sets the standard in its class and makes the competition look bad (technology-wise that is).
But still, there is no way I will pay near $60,000 for a V6 E class even $50,000 is ridiculous as well.
Now who says that Lexus's isolation from the road, lack of handling, cloud-like ride is boring? Just because someone's description of the Lexus is boring to him does not mean that it is boring to a Lexus owner. Who says that harsh ride, rough exhaust note, loud and harsh engine noise is fun behind a sports car? It could be boring to have all those things in a sports car.
Lexus cars are different from Mercedes cars but to say Mercedes or Lexus is better than one another is silly.
Both of them are great cars but to a different degree.
J "CaddyLac"
Merc1 - the E-class/LS discussion got started on price comparatives of 6cyl E vs. LS430. No technical issues were involved. Nealm1 just tried to state how crazy that was, and except for you, found plenty of agreement. Even you would be hard pressed to say that a 6cyl E could compete with a V-8 of just about any pedigree. Now let's end this and I promise I will never say another negative thing about MB on this board because you simply can't handle it.
Common sense - maybe its me or maybe it's a bragging rights thing. But when I was behind the wheel of the SL the only thing I noticed was a bit tighter road feel and the three pointed star. This was a 15 min drive. All the techno wizardry seems wasted - at least 99% of the time you are behind the wheel. I don't pay $35k extra for things I may need 1% of the time. The SC handled plenty well, rode nicer and had the nicer interior and the better stereo. That and the ability to go from 0-60 with plenty of torque is what I care most about. The excess stuff seems to happen everywhere. I bought a Denon AVR-4802 receiver a while back and compared it against Denon's 5803 and Onkyo's top of the line. The 5803 had it all including 170 watts per channel. The 4802 and the Onkyo had it all also (multiple component HD inputs, 8 optical inputs etc) but the latter two were 125 watts and 130 watts. Now if I put the 125 watt up to a minus 10 setting I will go deaf in my house. If I put it in the plus level it may cause the house to explode. So why bother spending another $1200 dollars on all that extra wattage. Sorry for the sidebar but this discussion just reminded me of my receiver research.
C230 Coupe, perhaps? (And, if we extend our discussion to the European market -- as some posters tend to do -- then add A-Class, V-Class, Vaneo...)