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Comments
The recent S class both downsized and upgraded itself to meet market standards. The new LS
does take Mercedes styling into account, yes.
But you are mistaken if you think Mercedes Benz is the be all and end all of the automotive world that it was in 1896, and during a period of time
in the 1970's and 80's.
Not only that. They also made the body style a blatant imitation of the M-B S-class.
I believe mike2567 was referring to the fact that Daimler-Benz invented the automobile.
-rdo
russell.ollie@usa.net
M
For enigma: the prior LS400 nav system was not compatible with the Nakimichi, but the new one is standard, right? So the Mark Lev. must be compatible with the Nav sys. and the Nak. no longer an option, I assume? And that means touch screen control for the Mark Lev. and some steering wheel control?
The GPS nav. system remains mostly touch screen but I believe the stereo controls are not as much a part of the touch screen display as they are in the current LS400.
The stereo does have some controls on the steering wheel.
regarding Audi A8. I currently drive MB C280 and Lexus LX450. Love my Lexus and hate my MB especially during the winter. I'll be looking for a new car in couple of month and my main candidates are BMW 740il and Audi A8. Many of my friends use to drive BMW but resently switched to Audi and very happy with this car.
Any comments would be appreciated.
Thanks.
regarding Audi A8. I currently drive MB C280 and Lexus LX450. Love my Lexus and hate my MB especially during the winter. I'll be looking for a new car in couple of month and my main candidates are BMW 740il and Audi A8. Many of my friends use to drive BMW but resently switched to Audi and very happy with this car.
Any comments would be appreciated.
Thanks.
But otherwise it's a excellent car. Breakthrough technology, AWD(good if you need it), gorgeous interior, understated but elegant and tasteful exterior design, and has all the features one would expect for it's price tag!
I agree with all your points on the A8 except the price. If anybody pays $70k for an A8 they should have a hole installed in their head where a brain can be inserted. The A8s have been moving at huge discounts for most of their time on the market. I read of several people buying them for the low to mid 50s. This makes it more compelling buy but for me doesn't overcome the major issues you mentioned (particularly the aluminum construction).
-rdo
russell.ollie@usa.net
I was using MSRP as a reference. Discounts vary greatly based on time of year and region of the country. So it's kind of hard to put a general and accurate number on what people actually pay for one. $70K is a approximate MSRP.
I certainly agree that it's hard to quantify discount prices due to timing but believe me, there is no point in time from here forward (at least not until a new model A8 comes out) that the A8 isn't selling at a discount from MSRP. It's a great car notwithstanding the issues you pointed out already but it simply isn't moving.
By the way, unless things have changed drastically, Edmunds lists the 2000 A8 MSRP as $62,525 with destination charge.
Thanks.
-rdo
russell.ollie@usa.net
Did you forget about all the options that are available on the car?
Do you really think you are going to find even one Audi A8 4.2 Quattro on dealer lots with a sticker price of $62000 on the window?
I am more puzzled now than I was before, but I
have a feeling that at the end I will probably go
with BMW 740IL. My only concern is that as soon as I get it BMW will introduce new body style, and I'll be driving an obsolete car. I hate when it happens.
Thanks again.
Besides the current 7-series is a excellent car to begin with in most respects. So why not buy one?
Thanks, MJC
dated running along the S-Type, but it's still the epitome of class. All Jaguars are.
M
My '2 cents', the S body style is a sad statement. The only 2 things I can give it credit for are: the moon roof/sun roof and cool TV advertisements. I couldn't get past the outside appearance to even test drive one.
Of course, I am a bit prejudiced. I have a 2000, XJ8 L, and think the body style can not be beat. Oh, concerning the Vanden Plas. That is a regal car. My Dad has a 2000 model...
Just for the record, I ordered mine first
M
Please take a look at sedans conference #2946 (MB S430 Alternatives) posts #58,59,60. The conference needs some reports of jag. ownership exprience. I posted mine; however the more the better.
Merc1
I test drove the VDP S/C before purchasing a standard 2000 VDP. The power was unbelieveable, but costly and in my case not needed. My new jag is flawless so far, very happy with it. I like the S type also, they are different but compliment each other and the jag. legacy.
I am glad I bought S-Type V8. So far I have 10500 miles on it, and I love it. Fabulous car. So far no problems too. It handles great, drives smoothly, is almost Lexus quiet, and has tons of features. And it looks very good too.
But all of the above cars are still excellent cars in their own ways.
Second, I know that the '00 LS 400 has a higher bhp than BMW & MB (282-BMW 740i/740il, 275-MB S430, 290- LS 400). The '01 LS 430 will probably have a horsepower boost to lift it over the S500(302bhp). Mix that with the stetched wheelbase of 3"-4"(best guess when I compared the '00 & '01), the additional options coming next year, and the fact that Lexus probably will not raise the price more than $5000, I think that Lexus will probably win the V8 segment of this market, with MB winning the V12 for '01, as I heard they are coming out with a new V12 engine. Don't get me wrong, BMW will still have their following, catering to the people who like the "thrill of driving"
And looking back to when the last generation S-class came out in 1991, you can see that Mercedes renamed the SEL with a 4.2L V8 from 420SEL in 1990 to 400SEL in 1991, even though the 1991 retained a 4.2L V8. Not to mention when the E-class finally got a V8 motor, it was named 400E instead of 420E. Maybe Mercedes renamed their 4.2L powered cars too 400E because Lexus had the "400"! And later, of course, Mercedes dropped the SEL, E, SEC, SL, from the end of the model names and changed the designations from 400E, 420SEL, to E400, S420. Again, maybe because of Lexus they did it!
See how lame that argument is that Lexus renamed their 2001 LS400 to LS430 because Mercedes has S430 and E430?
Wheelbase on 2001 LS430 is up over 2" as opposed to 2000 LS400. Height is increased 2.4". And in the process, 2001 LS430 has more overall interior room and a larger trunk than 2000 S-class.
M
Enigma - when I go down to talk with the dealer about the deposit, I would want more than just a place in line. That implies whatever comes in (color, equip) is what you may have to settle for. I am not inclined to do that. I want a fully loaded car with a reasonable color choice. If I am going to spend the big bucks and live with it for quite a while, I want choice. So, is the deposit a waste of time? Or, if I just wait to order what I want, what are the chances of getting shut out for a LONG time. I can order the MB S430 from the factory exactly as I want it and get it in 3 mos. Will Lexus be about the same or a little longer, or is the early demand probably going to eat up all early allotments? Interested in your opinion on this. Thanks
Usually the dealer will ask you for color choice and equipment choice when that data becomes available to the dealer itself. Currently, no Lexus dealer knows the exact 10 colors that will be offered or the exact standard and options that will be available. And the most important thing, they don't know the price yet, of the standard car or prices for options.
This is what our dealer did with cars before they came out- I'll take for example the RX300 before it came out-
1) Even before Color choice, equipment choice is known, the dealer takes deposits from customers so that they can get one of the earlier RX300s. Of course, with a popular product, the later you put a deposit, the later you get the car.
2) When color choices, combinations, standard features and options are known(usually about a month before the cars hit showrooms), dealer ask each individual customer what options they want, what they don't want, what they can live without, what options they can't live without, and their top 2 to 3 color choices that they would like.
3) Dealer puts in order preferences for each customer every few weeks. Order preferences are basically where the dealer sits down at the computer and punches in what the dealership needs in colors, equipment and options to fill customer orders. And what Lexus NA does is try to get each dealer the proper cars they need(with proper colors, equipment, etc.) to sell to customers or to fill pre-existing orders.
And typically the cars do basically appear in the order that you were on the waiting list. Usually the only times that things go wrong:
1) is if the color you wanted, nobody else wants, and therefore they don't produce many of them.
2) the equipment levels you want is something that Lexus does not build alot of. Example: You want a car with Leather but no moonroof. If someone wanted a car like that, they are going to be waiting a long time for delivery!
3) Production problems have cut production. Of course, it rarely happens these days!
4) the dealer you put a deposit/order with is run by a bunch of morons. And they don't bother placing order preferences, etc. with Lexus or they never bothered to ask customer for color, equipment preferences.
5) And of course, if could be any combination of the above 4 reasons.
The Deposit is not a waste of time. As it "should" guarantee that you get the car sooner rather than later. For example, if you put a deposit and you are #10 on the list of customers who are waiting for 2001 LS430s, you should be about the 10th one to get the car. I have seen some customers get cars earlier rather than later. And i have also seen the opposite happen. Again, what happens depends mainly on color availability and equipment availability.
Even if you order a LS430 once colors, equipment, options, and prices are set in or around August. You should be able to get a LS430 built the way you want it, in about 3 months. Usually even with high demand, 3 months is the longest it would take for your car to arrive from Japan from the time you ordered it.
I would go through and pick your dealers and salespersons brain apart with reference to ordering and what the deposit means as far as your place in line.
I am afraid the BMW will spoil me and I won't want any other car. I just wish the radio and the a/c were easier to operate. I am afraid to try the phone.
Also-any opinions on the BMW 7-Series protection trim. Is a BMW armored car really necessary. If anyone knows the sales numbers for this, that would be great.
Do you have any idea on the price range of the '01 coupe(possibly called SC 430).
Acura dropped the "Legend" name becase the Acura name wasn't recognized and the Legend name was recognized by everyone. Typically when you would ask a Acura Legend owner what car they owned, they would tell you Legend. When you ask a mecedes E430 or a BMW 740i, or a Lexus LS400 owner you get the answer, typically, of Mercedes, BMW, or Lexus. In the end because of the name association problem, the Legend was never truly considered a luxury car buy buyers and the general public. And actually the 1st and 2nd generation Legends were really not luxury cars, they were closer to sport-luxury sedans then to actual luxury sedans like the LS400.
I used to drive a Legend. It was nice size,
well made, powerful enough. It was no LS400
in real life as on paper. I doubt the RL
has an essentially different character...
2001 Shameless and Relentless Pursuit of MB Copycat is shown on the right:
SHAME ON YOU, LEXUS!
Same grille? Theirs about a million cars that have the same basic outer grille shape on this planet. Where are the other similarities? The MB has chrome slats going horizontally through the grille, does the Lexus? Does the Lexus have a hood emblem?
It's more like the front end of a LS430 looks almost nothing like a 2000 S-class front end.
M
Is there a resemblance b/t the S class and the new LS 430? Sure there is. Is that going to dissuade me from possibly purchasing the LS 430 next year? That would be ridiculous. As a present MBZ and Lexus owner, I look forward to the new Lexus offering. And I am sure that MBZ will up the ante soon after.
On a side note, one thing that MBZ could stand to copy from Lexus is their stellar reliablity!
M
One of Car and Drivers technical editors, Don Schroeder, died last friday in a high speed car crash while testing a high performance modified Mercedes-Benz in Texas.
There may or may not be some slight similarities between cars - but who cares? There are a lot of other cars on the road that are a lot more similar looking than Lexus and MB.
Wheeeel! Lucky Seven!
When the 2000 MB S-class is standing still to show the 7-spoke wheels, Lesux' designers must have felt very lucky because grade school taught them how to count to exactly seven, not one over nor one under.
Please, are you thinking that counting spokes is easy?
Think again, spoke counting requires special skills, it took Lexus' designers 10 years to master the skills: If they don't hold the first spoke with one hand for reference, the count can be messed up (their bosses won't be happy), let alone the 2000 MB won't stand still too long.
Did you recall that the older MB S-class have had 8-hole wheels and Lesux' designers miscounted and copied as 9-hole wheels on their Lexus LS400?
M