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What is supposed to be the point of the Drive by Wire technology which apparently causes this problem?
"You're trying to use Lexus where they exist and Toyota where they don't"
Not really. Lexus remains the luxury arm of Toyota. Soon, Lexus will become its own brand separate, yet a part of the Toyota family. Unless Lexus is spun out of TMC as its own publicly traded entity, it remains a part of TMC. So both names can be associated with each other.
"Lexus wants to distance itself from Toyota for the purpose of becoming a global luxury car player.."
You are incorrect here. Lexus does NOT want to distance itself from Toyota, rather Lexus wants to take on the likes of MB and BMW on a far larger scale than it currently is, with freedom from its parent, Toyota. Consider it phase-II of the TMC plan for global domination. Create new styles, add in hybrid variants to all trim levels, play the HP and luxury cards, and make BMW and MB sweat, just a little more especially in their own backyard. Put another way, do you suppose MB or BMW will ever threaten TMC's market share in Japan ? Not very likely in a long time from now. But Lexus is going to Europe to compete, and you better believe they mean business.
"All this time you've debated with anyone here that said a Lexus was just a tarted up Toyota, now you're telling me they are one in the same?"
How many times am I going to have to repeat myself - TMC and Lexus are one family, though with different missions. On the contrary, some of the German car fans who, in their zeal to deride Lexus, call it a glorified Toyota, to which Lexus fans disagree. For example, the LS400 was created before its Toyota equivalent - Celsior. And the Celsior is not any cheaper than the LS400 just bcos it is sold in Japan as a Toyota. In addition, except for the IS220, there are no lower classes of the Lexus brand sold anywhere in the world, unlike MBs and BMWs.
Sigh !!! this madness gotta stop.... Merc1, let us move on, and agree to disagree. Kapish ?
Thx Len, you just summarized a zillion lines of post in two concise lines. Exactly my point.
But we gotta move on.....
Ok.
"But there are many cars they sell that are not luxury cars, nor do they qualify as luxury cars by government defined standards."
But does the G know what a luxury car is? Are they to define what a luxury car is? A 3-Series is a sport sedan, not a luxury car per se and the U.S. Government in particular is capable of understanding the difference, at least until at least on U.S. brand came up with one - the Caddy CTS.
"Just because a brand has a lux classification - it doesn't mean everything it sells are lux goods."
I agree, never said that every they sell was. My point was that you have to also look at what the brand "cut their teeth on" sorta speak, with Mercedes it wasn't A-Classes, B-Classes or C-Classes, it was the E, S, SL and the like. These smaller cheaper cars are much newer for them.
M
It seems to me you're trying to use Toyota one min where they are strong and Lexus the next in an area where they are strong. You are playing a double standard here. Nobody said that a 25-30K was an absolute luxury car, you missed the part about them being sports sedans or entry-level luxury. It is total nonesense to look at one car for 29K and say it isn't luxury, while one that has a price 32K is, without looking at the cars themselves.
"You are incorrect here. Lexus does NOT want to distance itself from Toyota, rather Lexus wants to take on the likes of MB and BMW on a far larger scale than it currently is, with freedom from its parent, Toyota."
The last part of this sentence is what I just stated, freedom from Toyota, of course its with Toyota's money, but that is transparent to the customer. Also If this were the case then why oh why is Lexus trying to distance themselves from Toyota in marketing, sales, distribution and everything else in Europe? They don't want to be known as a "Toyota". Everyone clearly sees this here. That is what is holding them back not, too much close association with Toyota.
"Consider it phase-II of the TMC plan for global domination. Create new styles, add in hybrid variants to all trim levels, play the HP and luxury cards, and make BMW and MB sweat, just a little more especially in their own backyard."
Lexus is a brand within Toyota yes, but that isn't what they're striving to be, they're striving to stand on their own. They have their own engineering staff and their own design studio, all seperate from Toyota. You've lost the focus of having a luxury brand here.
Also, if Toyota is so powerful why not sell all these cars under one name then - Toyota? You saying they came up with a seperate brand - Lexus to be only known as a Toyota family memember? Come on now I know you don't honestly believe that.
The current IS300 is just that - a tarted up Toyota (Alzeeta or whatever it was) that the U.S. "Lexus" buyer saw right through. The IS200 was on the European market for years before Lexus USA got the idea to import it - thus rendering it a failure because everyone could clearly see it wasn't a "Lexus".
" Put another way, do you suppose MB or BMW will ever threaten TMC's market share in Japan ? Not very likely in a long time from now. But Lexus is going to Europe to compete, and you better believe they mean business."
No they wont because neither BMW or MB sells nearly as many models nor as many micro cars and cheap models as the entire Toyota Motor Company does, and you know this. Silly question.
M
The RX330 came to market first in the spring of 2003 so that is why everyone says Lexus had them first. They were first to actually to put in buyers hands in the U.S. At the same time the technology was present on European Es and 5s, and arrived in the fall of 2003 as MY2004 Es and 5s. In short they all had it at the same time for the 2004 model year.
M
Exactly. Also Chrysler has benifited from MB engineering in a many ways. Their biggest hit right now, the 300 uses pleny of Benz know how and hardware. I know that may seem to be a joke on this board, but MB's suspension, transmission and other hard points aren't the cause of their reliability problems. Chyrsler now has a durable 5-speed tranny that can take anything the Hemi can dish out consider this is the same group that engineers trannies for some of if not the highest torque output of any automatic cars around.
"Likewise I think anyone who thinks of Lexus and Toyota as one brand is equally foolish. It's really a silly argument, and one not worth discussing, on both sides.
Exactly!
"In the case of MB though it is far out because they acquired Chrysler. Why penalize a company's prestige for buying another one? Makes no sense. To a lesser extent - but still beyond any sensible credibility - you have certain people who love German cars but who can't and probably never will accept (and clearly don't understand) the risk for creating, challenging and rivaling brands that they want to put on a pedastal. Similarly - why deride a brand for it's guts and success and at the same time redefining the rules of how the game is played. For the record and IMO - Merc1 is NOT one of those."
Ok thats three for three, who is using your user ID?!?! Thanks though, I'm not as much of a finattikker as you thought huh...lol! Long as they don't try to share/engineer a common platform I'm ok with this - true.
M
Anyway, I don't think you can say any of the 3 manufacturer's can take credit for being "first" with adaptive lights. All basically introduced them at the same time.
A famous person in the automotive area who drives a bus and whom we both know has already dealt with this.
His statement:
"The golden years are gone - we have reached the 2nd plateau"
Ralph Kramden.
Brookllyn. USA
Ron
M
Ljflx... in the words of the great Pierre Francoise Dellabrioschi... La PL-U-U-ME dellacroix se si bon vichysoise si bon SHEESE!!!
If the marketing literature wouldn't have mentioned that the car had the feature I wouldn't even know I had it.
The feature sure does make for nice commercials though.
Worth the money IMHO.
Their market targets are also different with Phaeton targetting the luxo market and A8 more but sport sedan market.
We all know by now that there are very few out there who are willing to spend ~$70K for a car (no matter how well built) that has a large VW crest on the grill and trunk.
Well, fond farewell to the Phaeton, could've, would've, should've.... but won't be here much longer. Alas... for what could've been.....
M
after i played tennis a couple months ago and was sick with the flu i took in some heat and massage on the way home - the seats have won awards from a german orthopedic group as the most comfortable and supportive seats in the marketplace. for those of you who think the lexus levinson system is the best, well, maybe it was at one time but not anymore. see the la car site as 1 example of an independent test of audio systems - the blaupunkt produced phaeton system was #1! and i cant tell you how hard it was to get my 2 teenagers out of the back seat after the 4 hour drive since they each had tons of room, their own (2)hvac controls, bun warmers, ventilated seats and massagers and privacy blinds! many of these features are available on other cars but they are also on the luxury vw. the other cars do not have the "indirect" ventilation system - i can no longer stand to see vents in other luxury cars - much more attractive to see wood which only reveals the vents when they are needed to adjust the temperature, then once the desired temperature is reached, the wood covers up the vents again.
the phaeton is an amazing car and those who tend to knock it don't drive one. if anything is responsible for the slow sales it is vw's failure to promote it properly. most people i know can afford it and aren't concerned with the label. if you are concerned with that, get a different car!
so far as the dealerships are concerned it is sooo true that lexus and infiniti have set the bar way above the german's, any of them. as a former infiniti, bmw and mb owner i can tell you with certainty that fancy surroundings don't make a car more reliable or get it serviced better.
i also believe that if there was way better promotion of the phaeton and sales were higher, the dealerships would be forced to improve to meet the market expectations; that said, my sales and service experiences have been first rate.
Your Phaeton sounds awesome...It sounds like it has all the toys and then some...I will look look foreward to driving one...
Is your fully loaded and could you tell us how much it cost or how much a fully loaded one costs...
Thanks.
relilablity of the previous 7 series you have to
be a little impressed at the 06 745. This is what
the 2002 should have looked liked. I believe Bangle got the message. Standing still this car,
with that big footprint, makes the LS430
look a little anemic. The LS is a fine automobile
and there could even be one in my future(I
currently own a 98 740i). If the reliability
of the new seven(electronics) improves it will be hard not to take a serious look for my next ride.
If you've ever driven any of the high end BMW's
or MB it's hard to give up that Connection to the
road and feel that Lexus just can't deliver.
terry79 - nice try, but we've all been there, done that. Others may want to continue a winless war, but not me.
an opinion on this board.Nothing more,nothing less. They're all fine automobiles. And maybe in
a few years when I get past performance driving
I'll cock back in a LS, crank up the ML, and be
pampered.
M
Mercedes-Benz has just decided to sell a S350 Sedan here for the final run of the current S-Class! Very interesting move.
You know what this means right? They're getting buyers ready for the next-generation S350 as the entry level S-Class.
http://www.mbusa.com/brand/container.jsp?/models/main.jsp&modelCode=S350V
I can't believe it! It is a short wheelbase model though. The S65 AMG has also been released too.
The 2007 S-Class will include a 268hp S350, a 325hp S450 and 380hp S550, according to this most recent discorvery about the current S350 and the rumor mill about the new V8s.
Not since 1993 has Mercedes done a one-year engine/bodystyle model in the U.S.
I wonder if this will prompt BMW to send us a 740i and Jaguar an XJ8 with the smaller 3.5L V8? Maybe an Audi A8 3.7L V8?
M
has not been chasing in the US. in the swb the V6 should be enough to allow the vehicle to perform equal or better than the 4.3L V8. the new engines really put MB on top in the HP battles. in the end there will probably be 5 different engines, rwd or awd, and 2 wheel bases to choose from. definately not a one size fits all approach.
M
I can't believe that Mercedes would stoop to offer a V6 for this luxury class. Everybody knows how awful it is to have a luxury car without a V8. That's why the RL has been beat up so long by so many.
What could MB be thinking? Are they opening the door for Acura or was it the other way round.
Maybe the ridiculous price they ask for the S class is the real problem, multiplied by the Euro's strength against the Dollar.
sorry if i misunderstood your post. i just feel the very fine execution of the phaeton tends to get mixed up with the totally bungled vw marketing and dealer network.
i don't have time right now but i will try to get back to you with some info on the differences between what i have been informed are, different platforms. i originally thought they were the same too.
bobp7
The inside compartments are virtually identical in volume and leg/head room. The cars are the same width, yet the S is 5 or so inches longer in length and wheelbase. They weigh the same.
Since the RL is SHAWD there's a power train down the middle like the Benz, so it's not the FWD layout is it?
Could a 6cyl. Mercedes be competitive with an Acura with it's much lower price and superior reliability...I doubt it...
M
The 7-Series prior to 1988 were all 6-cylinder models, not sure how many years that car ran, before my time.
M
Early on, that car had to have just about every electronic part replaced (all under warranty)-- that was back when Bimmers were known to be quirkily unreliable and MBs were boring but totally reliable. And Lexus, Infiniti?-- never heard of them.
http://www2.mercedes-benz.co.uk/content/unitedkingdom/mpc/mpc_unitedkingdom_website/en/hom- - e_mpc/passenger_cars/home/products/new_cars/s-class_saloon/models.html
The S350 is 53,100 UK Pounds (including 16% VAT, title and registration).
The pound is $1.92, so that's equivalent to U.S. pricing of about $85,000 (net of the VAT) for the S350.
BTW the S500 is about 10,000 UK pounds more than the S350 or over $19K.
The 'loss leader' over there is S280, which is 'only' 47,500 pounds or about $77K US.
Such a deal.