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Comments
That's why folks in Europe buy a car in one country with the lowest price and import into their country to avoid taxes. Check the web to see how popular this is over there!
But that doesn't remove the differences in what manufacturers try to charge in each country.
I priced the S right off the UK MB site in pounds.
Pounds don't go through Euro's to get to dollars, since the UK isn't a part of the Euro system.
You take the S price in pounds in the UK deduct the VAT and delivery charges and then convert to dollars . Today it took a $1.92 to buy a pound.
MB prices in the UK for comparable cars are MUCH higher than the US ( and in much of Europe ).
The point was 1) right now the price MB is asking for the ageing S350 is HUGE in UK 2) the spread onthe S350 to the S500 there is about the same as it is here, $20K for two cylinders.
Those must be diamond encrusted, dilithium crystal cylinders right?
Final point, even though some folks can afford it, and some folks willingly pay for it, there's NOTHING about an S-class Mercedes that justifies its price as a luxury automobile, particularly a V6 240 hp version for the U.S. that weighs 4000 lbs.
Except consumer stupidity.
M
Additionally, are aluminum cars the same as steel cars? I think not.
IMHO pivoting headlights are no big deal. Additionally, they are not an Audi, BMW or Lexus item. They are produced by some supplier. For example, the new Audi's come with LED low beam and driving lights that they claim are at least as bright as Xenon's. they are, no doubt produced by the same supplier that supplies the "see around the corner" Xenon's.
This kind of stuff is no more than "frosting on the cake".
Those who say that the A8 and Phaeton are the same have simply not done their research.
Researching - curb weight differences alone don't mean a thing either way when it comes to platform sharing. There are plenty of vehicles that share platforms, and have wildly varying curb weights. It depends on equipment, drivetrains etc. etc., not just a simple glance at curb weights.
M
http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/03/20/obit.delorean/index.html
http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20050320/ap_on_re_us/obit_delorean_10
MSRP
$25K with 5-speed manual
$25.65 with auto
Approx. 9200 made between 1981 and 1982
http://www.dmcnews.com/faq/hist.htm
I seem to remember it coming out of the gate at scalper prices but it didn't last long.
You do realize many other *big deal* items are produced by outside suppliers also? How about GPS systems, stability systems, braking systems. THe list goes on and on. So I guess carmakers themselves are not innovation much if anything at all these days. It's the suppliers!
And chances are it's not the same supplier supplying Audi, BMW, and Lexus with the same items. NipponDenso probably supplies Toyota with their lights, while Bosch probably supplies Audi & BMW.
I guess you can say Phaeton & DeLorean creators were cut from the same cloth. What cloth is iconoclastic egomaniac?
http://www.delorean.com/
Delorean... neat car.
This GS450h will be a V6 + electrics to produce "over 300hp" not the 400hp or so most first thought. Hardly a challenge to any German tuner cars, but a nice alternative to any regular V8 entry in the mid-level luxury class I guess. Doesn't this render the regular GS430 moot?
M
From their press release it looks as though they're delivering: "Combined power output will be well in excess of 300 horsepower, with zero-to-60 acceleration in less than six seconds. Even more impressive is how quickly and powerfully torque is delivered during mid-range acceleration. The system's massive electric motor is capable of delivering maximum torque, immediately upon demand. This unique power delivery characteristic is most noticeable...and most useful...during 30-to-50 passing and merging maneuvers. It is an experience that must be felt to be fully appreciated. The result is a level of acceleration performance similar to a V-8 engine, with combined fuel economy in the high twenties, a level more typical of a 2.0-liter four-cylinder compact sedan, along with one of the best EPA emissions ratings in the industry." The full release is here
http://pressroom.toyota.com/photo_library/display_release.html?id=20050323d
It is when they couple a V8 with hybrid that we'll see more impressive things.
The bigger issue is what does this do to residuals of gas engines. Transition is never easy. But maybe that is also why Toyota stayed out of the HP wars. Decent mileage gas engines will hold value better. In an era of rising fuel prices high HP inefficient gas engines may get the same wrath the fur industry got in the past. Those residuals would crash.
In an era of no-gas, the vehicle you wouldn't be able to pay enough for is an alternative fuel vehicle. Even at $4.00/gallon I wouldn't buy a hybrid unless it was the same price as a 100% gas fired engine. So to me I would consider it at maybe $5/gallon, but then there would be other catastrophic issues anyway.
I totally believe this. I wonder how long it will take the world to realize how profound this is. This will become Toyota’s biggest legacy. I just can’t wait to see how hybrid will be assimilated into the performance world. It’s just a matter of time before we see hybrids on tracks and the “green” perception is put to rest.
“Transition is never easy. But maybe that is also why Toyota stayed out of the HP wars.”
Maybe staying out of the HP wars is by another design, enabling them catch the competition by surprise. Coming out with more muscular hybrids early may have inspired others to get on the bandwagon quicker. For one thing, it appears BMW is virtually nowhere with hybrid. I wonder at which point evryone realizes this is not a fad.
I agree with your logic about Toyota staying free of the HP wars.
kdshapiro - the hybrid is inevitable and it will cost more because it adds more power as well. Bigger engines command more cost. So if you look at it from a power standpoint higher pricing is no different than today when you opt for bigger displacement. But the truth is that gas engines will depreciate faster when hybrids expand in the market and you may end up paying a multiple of that $1500 by going the gas route, assuming it even stays available in lux cars.
It's not a money issue.
Ljflx is right on the money with his last post. As a matter of fact, hybrid may be around forever if it is combined with hydrogen technology. There are lots of ways to go here and from what I have read no one is up on this more than Toyota. They have fingers in several energy pies.
Eventually, we will have a hydrogen-based economy but we all will be riding the subterranean bobsled by the time this happens. Hopefully there will be more competition hence progress when the world realizes the extent of the energy crisis. The problem is, it really hasn’t sunk in yet. It will.
That $3K in stock looks like a good deal by comparison.
And just to be pedantic, you can always sell $3k in stock for $1K. I'll be glad to take it off your hands, for instance.
LS500 GT
V-10, hybrid, AWD
400bhp (gas) + 200hp (battery) = 600HP
Top speed @ 202mph
0-60 at 4s
32-35mpg
Priced @ $100K
Being put through the paces right about now in Russia and elsewhere....
A Lexus to compete against the likes of Bentley, Ferrari, Porsches, Lambos, etc.... Rarefied field indeed !
I guess I thought these hybrids were supposed to be AMG/M series competitors. We'll have to see what the hp is once they mate the next generation V8 with the electric stuff.
M
I hardly see hybrids taking over the market because they are expensive to produce and production capacity will have to be greatly enlarged for them to gain footing in Europe.
M
This LS500 GT is designed to compete against the 760iL and the S600, not a Maybach, RR, or Bentley. The V12-powered/493hp S600 starts at $125K, and the V-12 powered/438hp 760Li starts at $115K. So the LS with a V10-powered hybrid/600HP car for $100K would be a screaming deal. This is the space Lexus wants to re-define itself the most. The higher status level, and if they can get this car out to the dealership, it'll certainly raise the aura around the IS and GS sedans !
For folks with 600hp on their minds there is a S65 AMG, already with 604hp today. You think that if Lexus delivers a 600hp LS Mercedes will stand still? You say people underestimate Lexus' future plans but I think you do the same about the competition. These are Germans car companies we're talking about here, not Cadillac.
M
Enginneering teams are parcelled out onto different parts of a project. I've had people studying things for me in major projects and acquisitions over the years and they didn't have a clue what the bigger scope and strategy was. It's the way business works.
I'll say what I said on the LS board again here - I think many people are underestimating what Lexus is planning for the 2007 global intro. You have a very successful lux brand established in the US combined with a parent company that has the deepest pockets in the industry (no one is even remotely close) that will become the global car sales leader within 5 years. They have a rapidly developing Scion brand and are way ahead of everyone else on next gen technology. Do you really think they are going to go global with just a basic enhancement of their US strategy given all that clout?? That would fail miserably. As designman said yesterday - they've kept all this stuff pretty quiet and snuck up to this point - but at some point the veil has to come off the secrecy.
BMW - who knows what they will do. I said a long time ago that they are too small for some of these next gen challenges. There are many things they can lead on but not large scale structure changes like the ones coming up in the next 50 years. Either they will get acquired at some point or they will have a major long-term secure alliance if they want to stay indepedent. If this alliance with Toyota over diesels is real maybe they will strike a long-term deal with them. I don't buy for one second the "Lexus is gunning for BMW" talk. That's marketing with an intent to change the direction of the perception. But both BMW and Lexus are aiming at hurting MB. It could be "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" situation.
There are already some very limited hydrogen cars in use, mainly by power companies. I believe JCP&L in NJ uses a handfull. They are quite primitive and can only go 40 or 50 miles if I remember my reading properly. But there is no infrastructure for it even if a true production car could be built tomorrow. On top of that there are countries in the world whose ability to develop hydrogen will be seriously challenged and questioned. Hydrogen development is volatile and is loaded with geo-political issues, safety and security. It will require world-wide standards. It is a lot more than producing a car. Do you want a hydrogen pumping station or plant anywhere near your house?? The transition to a hydrogen infrastructure alone will take 20 years once the technology arrives and the technology is 25-30 years away. But in reality Toyota is far ahead of everyone in hydrogen development anyway.
I think the hybrid will happen faster than anyone thinks. The $4K price difference today will be down to $1500 or less in a year or two as production ramps up. If government incentives stay in place it will be a lot less than that.
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/03/25/opinion/25sachs.html?
I do think you're looking at from just a hp/price standpoint and I think it will take more than that and a fuel economy edge to crack the market at the high end, especially on a proposed 600hp car. Mercedes has played their hand as far as the S600 and S65, you're right they aren't going to get any cheaper. However we really need to see what the S-Class in general brings to the table as far as performance, it could be lighter, better geared or anything...better than the current generation, thus improving its performance also. As far as what a S600 or S65 costs now its the same situation as the LS430 vs the S-Class or the 7-Series, on paper the value of the LS should have stopped the sales of the S-Class, but it hasn't far from it. It will be the same thing when this super hybrid appears. Mercedes' isn't going to lose the ability to sell S600s or S65s just because a Lexus may come close to the performance at a cheaper cost - there is much more to that in this class and especially at these prices. The whole car has to be right and appeal to the enthusiasts buyers that care about 600hp. This is where the current LS also loses out to the enthusiasts. I hardly see the next LS being some great looking car with class leading dynamics, but again that is pure speculation at this point and just my opinion.
You mention Scion, I don't see the relevance here. Nissan is gunning for that just like Infiniti is dashing any hopes of Lexus being a sports sedan at least with the GS/M situation so far. I don't think Toyota and especially Lexus can just look at competing with Germans anymore. They'd better watch their back because Infiniti is out to erase any notion of a Lexus being sporty in the entry and mid level sedans sector.
Toyota is ahead in hybrid tech for sure, but technology in general I don't think so. BMW, Mercedes, Audi all push that far more than Toyota does by not being scared to introduce it to the market, for better or worse. I'm not talking about just hybrid tech either, which is what you seem to think is more important above all else.
Interesting take on BMW. BMW and Mercedes have been competing for years and years and yet Mercedes still holds the card worldwide. Mercedes does and BMW follows. Now that Mercedes has shown the R-Class, BMW has announced a new vehicle (to be know as the V5) to compete. Mercedes did a ML in 1998, BMW does a SUV in 2000. Mercedes is hardly in the shadow of BMW. These two have been complimenting each other in product for the last 40 years and when DCX's MB unit is back to health BMW's small advantage will be gone like it has been all these years. It wasn't until MB got into trouble did BMW pull ahead in some markets, but with their idrive/styling they imo lost the chance to detrhone MB, especially at the upper ranks. Watch this new S blow the 7-Seires away, not hard to do if the 5-Series/E-Class situation is anything to go by. BMW is slipping more than you'd like be believe. The 5-Series is no longer the segment leader in the press' eyes. Getting beat by the E-Class at every turn, not to mention the Infiniti M as a "sport" sedan. I've never seen a 5-Series place 3rd or 4th in a comparo, let alone a brand new 5-Series. Yes the 5 is still the drivers car, but the Infiniti has seemed to match that and the A6/E-Class aren't stylistically challenged and the E has all traditional buttons, no idrive. The 7-Series had a mess of an introduction. The new 3-Series has more competition than every before, even Lexus. BMW's slight advantage on the reliablity charts and sales are their only advantage and at some point Mercedes' product onslaught will catch up with them, imo. Their new styling theme has turned off a many of buyers around the world, but so far they've managed to gain new buyers I guess with certain models, not all. I think if MB feels the heat from Lexus so will BMW they are more or less in the same competitive boat. Especially since Lexus thinks they have a sports sedan in the GS, the IS hasn't been driven yet so the verdict is a long way out on it. Hoever the lack of a manual in the IS350 is big mistake. I can't believe that after the way the previous IS300 hit the floor with a thud because of not having a manual Lexus would do the same thing over again. Here is what I meant by execution as opposed to just saying that Toyota has so much money and can do what they want. All the money in the world is pointless if the execution is off. Everyone else in the IS' segment offers a manual, even stodgy old Mercedes, but they've seemingly decided not to on their top IS model. The GS isn't a 5-Series competitor either like Lexus promised. From what I've seen on the GS boards buyers either love or leave it over a variety of issues. Hardly the second coming of the mid-size segment, the Infiniti M beat them too it.
I don't see BMW being bought by anyone. The family that owns them, I can't think of the name right now, probably wouldn't go for it unless BMW was in deep, deep trouble. If I'm not mistake I think BMW had one of their best years ever last year?
Overall I think between Mercedes, Lexus, BMW and Infiniti the ones that will have the most trouble are Cadillac (already running into price resistance on their XLR and STS) and Acura, the latter which is challenged to get past their entry-level and barely mid-level image. Audi, however hasn't shown their hand just yet, the A8 is only the start. Watch Infiniti and Audi too. Everything isn't hybrids you know.
BTW, did you take that trip yet? If so did you rent the 300 or the Pacifica? Really curious to know what you'd think of either. Anway, see you all Monday.
M
Trip is a month from now.
I don't necessarily think that any entry to the S600 space or even the space above that (Bentley etc.) is anything more than just another car choice. That is a small market but you have to be in it if you are dead serious about playing at the exalted levels. The thing is that price on the Lexus (personally though I think it will be over $100K) is pretty close to highly optioned S500's. I think Audi has price issues too. No one I know will ever think of going beyond A8 territory in price. Audi just lacks the name here.
Lastly - it would be hard to imagine that two different dealers in two locations had spec data like that from any source but Lexus themselves. I think that car or a 550HP version of it, along with the LF-A is coming to market. We'll see.
-One of the reasons BMW sold so well last year is they had a nasty lease deal on the 3-series, and Mercedes wasn't willing to give much chase to it. The 3-series BTW, has become the choice of discerning sorority girls everywhere. When you absolutely, positively have to appear hardworking and successful before your fellow sisters, accept no substitutes... Daddy's buying!
-The 300C and Magnum w/hemi are brilliant.
-Make a trip up to your local Bimmer dealer and look closely at the materials inside the new 5 and Z4. Or better yet, find someone in a 6 month or year old one, and see how well it's holding up. Yeesh. At least the new M went in the right direction.
-With all the choices in the luxo world these days, the oldest tradition in the car business, Mercedes-Benz, is still, IMHO, the most interesting.
The ES330 is perhaps the ugliest, ill-proportioned luxury car I've ever seen.
The ES330 is similar to a C or E class Mercedes just much better equiped more refined and yes does offer significent Luxury features...But it is not a high end luxury car which is what we are talking about here....It's subjective beauty is not relavent...
The Electric motor in a hybrid not only adds good MPG but also tremendous power....isn't that what guys want that can afford an over $100,000 car.
The S class Mercedes is more interesting looking but that beauty is only skin deep...I would also note that the guy that can afford that price car often does not need to show off his wealth...He doesn't need a showy every day driver...There are lots of sporty Showy sports cars he can put in his garage as a toy.