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Comments
-shocking isn't it?
talk about logic. would it not be logical to at least see some of these vehicles on the road before we say how great they are :confuse: ?
food for thought....it's spelled "brakes".
What is it that goes on between a few of you? Lexus and Mercedes-Benz both make outstanding vehicles. Each offers some things the other does not. These things appeal to different audiences - that's what makes the automotive world interesting.
Why this means grown men (I assume??) have to get into a mud-throwing one-upmanship match about which manufacturer is the single gift to the automotive world - to the total exclusion of the other - is beyond me. Each manufacturer has contributed greatly to our automotive world, past and present. Each has its flaws, each has its attributes. Those issues contrast between the manufacturers but do NOT mean either is some kind of pariah in our world ... why keep behaving as though something you don't like about "the other side" makes that manufacturer worthless??
Are there not other "high end luxury marques" to discuss? Does this entire conversation have to be solely a few MB enthusiasts and a few Lexus enthusiasts throwing sarcasm and insults at each other?
Can't it be about what is good about each brand instead of choosing off sides and denigrating the other? Or here is a thought - maybe we could have some thoughtful discussion about what improvements could and should be made on BOTH sides without all the chest-beating, mine-is-better-than-yours-because-I-say-so garbage?
If there is no other territory to cover here, I'd say this discussion has run way past its purpose and it's time to say good night Gracie.
-speaking of the four door Porsche, could it be that they will also someday broaden their product line to the point that they're trying to be all things to all people, like benz for example? I would love to see mercedes cut their offerings in half again...3 sedan sizes, a couple of sports cars and wagons, maybe one SUV/crossover, and that's about it. An S-class would cost $150k, and be so well developed and reliable that it would once again dust everything, from every angle possible.
- 7-series update...better, worse, too little too late?
-Does anyone care that Jaguar has one foot in the grave?
-volkswagens' march upmarket is not going to work.
used most there are redundant controls on the steering wheel so as not to distract you from the road. with all of the electronics now in vehicles it seems to be
almost a necessity to have such systems.
as for the 7 too little too late. i liked the front end better before the update
and the backend still looks the same to me. the interior materials of the 7
are the bright spot of the car along with the new engine.
as for Jaguar the question should probably be does anyone care about Ford.
i do just like i care about GM. i have two GMC's in my driveway.
it is important for everyone in the US to have an interest in seeing these companies flourish. even with the globalism argument and foreign manufacturers with plants in the US i am still biased towards the domestics.
VW will make it with the Phaeton imo as long as they continue with a second
generation and try to keep the price point around 55-60k. that seems to me to be the natural next step in price from a loaded Passat. when it comes to the
Phaeton try to keep in mind it is not just a US market vehicle. the T-reg has
had good sales in the 50k area so it would seem reasonable that the Phaeton would also.
Jaguar's present condition surprises me. Unlike MB they have a focused line: three sedans, one with a wagon variant, and a two seater. The product is great, the XJ sedans are 10K-15K less than the problematic Germans, the new sports car looks great, the AWD sedan and now a touring wagon variant are ideal for the Northeast, etc. What's not to like? Yet they can't move the iron. Probably they are hobbled by reliability legacy issues, the lack of a macho, uber sedan image, and as a result low residuals which means higher lease payments in this predominantly lease driven market segment.
Because of this, probably the best deal out there in the high end market is a year old (new alu design ) XJ sedan for maybe 49K or less. Think about it: no reliability problems, no image problems (i.e, the boss arriving in a MB at 9:00 AM), picnic trays in the back seat for those summer jaunts up to the Finger Lakes with Cindy, much better customer service at a much less crowded Service Advisors desk, and a ride that can't be beat. Ask Brock Yates of Car and Driver.
Because that person bought a car from you...He paid an excessive price for it, he likes good service...and diserves good service. Those are the reasons you should give him good service...If you want a repeat customer.
The Jaguar Advanced Lightweight Coupe shows what the next XK might look like. The next XK will have to comply with new European pedestrian safety regulations. The next XK will use the new XJ's aluminum chassis which is 40 % lighter and 60 % stiffer than if it were steel. Some people complain how that Jaguar concept looks too much like an Aston Martin, which may be true, but at least the next Jaguar XK will have a new aluminum chassis. One thing I noticed between that Jaguar conept and new Astons is how the rear tappers off like the current XK8 vs. the crease around the rear trunk/window of new Astons. New Astons have a chassis that is NOT shared with Jaguars.
Here is a link to pictures of it. There are also pictures of the Jaguar XKR of Rocketsports Racing that races in the Trans-Am Series which dominated last year. It has 4.5 liters and 650 hp and a 9,000 rpm reline. Its engine is based on Jaguar's 4.2 liter V-8. Jaguar's 4.2 liter V-8 is much better than the old 4.0 liter V-8 which came out with the 1997 XK8.
Also, the link shows a 2005 XK8, but it says it is an XKR (which is false).
http://www.fast-autos.net/features/05naias/jaguar/index.html
Here is the new XJ's aluminum chassis:
The 2005 Jaguar Super V8 weighs over 800 pounds less than a BMW 760Li.
"The complete body with weighs 650 pounds compared with an estimated 1,058 pounds for the same car in steel, 952 pounds for a Mercedes-Benz S-class, and 955 pounds for a 7-series BMW."
- from The Inside Guide to the all-new aluminum Jaguar XJ by Automobile Magazine
Here is an article from wardsauto.com about Jaguar and aluminum. (It mentions a 2010 XK but this article was written before Jaguar announced the X150, the code name for the next XK).
Jaguar Cars’ Castle Bromwich assembly plant in the U.K. is preparing its case for more aluminum vehicles, having successfully validated the concept with the now-profitable aluminum XJ.
The upfront investment is paying off, says Mark White, Jaguar senior body structures manager for Jaguar and Land Rover Vehicles for Ford Motor Co. The XJ is profitable, he says.
The next step is the business case for future aluminum monocoque Jaguars. Following the brand’s cycle plan, the next-generation S-Type would be up for consideration first, as an ’06 or ’07 model, followed by the XK around 2010.
Bromwich assembles the current S-Type and XK, but only the XJ has an aluminum body mated to a steel subframe.
Ford has invested in a dedicated aluminum pressing facility at Bromwich for the XJ. The stamping facility, adjacent to the body assembly line, can handle aluminum versions of the S-Type and XK, should the auto maker go that route in the next-generation.
“We have the ability to do all three (cars in) aluminum if the business case is there,” White says.
“We know what it costs to do it for other models. But if they don’t meet the cost target, we won’t do it,” he says, noting he will have a series of deadlines to meet over the next three years.
The technology is ever evolving, and that plays into the business case as well. “We want to develop the technology even further,” White says.
The auto maker is identifying where costs are too high and working to reduce them. The goal is to further cut weight (aluminum currently reduces weight 40%-45% over steel); develop an even more efficient aluminum body structure; and improve manufacturing, such as rationalizing some of the 17 different riveting processes.
The rivet process also can be improved from an awkward system of rivets in a long band of tape to a blow-feed operation where they are loaded into a hopper and shot out like a dart gun through an air tube to nearby rivet guns.
Piloted on the long-wheelbase XJ, the process is being validated for future use as well. Switching from a tape feed to blow feed for the rivets will save $25 per vehicle, White says.
Alcan Inc. has been a partner with Jaguar, coming up with adhesive bonding that dramatically increases stiffness, which allows for lower gauge (thinner) aluminum to be used and saving on material cost, says Mike Kelly, Alcan Automotive vice president-global program director.
Alcan also does pre-treatment and pre-lubrication work. Additionally, the aluminum producer developed the just-in-time supply route for the 125 parts it sends to Bromwhich.
Kelly explains the aluminum starts in smelters in Quebec, Canada. Facilities in Western Germany do hot-rolling, and plants in Eastern Germany produce cold-rolled aluminum.
A finishing line does the pre-treatment and pre-lubrication. There is a laser-blank cut-to-length line in the U.K. and a storage facility feeding nearby Bromwich.
In 2003, Alcan supplied Jaguar with 1 million laser blanks, Kelly says."
Here is Mark White
I think Jaguar needs to drop the X-Type. I hope they make a new 2 seater aluminum sports car with styling from the Jaguar F-Type of a few years ago.
As a big fan of Jaguar I can't help but be disappointed with their new XJ. It looks too much like the X-type. It lacks the flair of the old model. Ford hasn't shown alot of wisdom in building a downmarket car that bears a strong resemblance to the Ford Mondeo. No one has been fooled. They simply lack the current generation technology that the other marques have. Also they've had some very embarassing problems with Nikasil coated engines and water pumps that fail without warning. If you look at some Jag formus you'll see what I'm talking about. As a result residuals are terrible.
You can pick up a 3yr old XJ for something in the mid $20K's. With the Select Edition Warranty, it's a good value, but do you want something that could possibly strand you? I've read enough Jag forums to know that they've had hoses suddenly fail and strand the driver. Another issue is upper tensioner chains. You'd think a mass produced car like the XJ wouldn't suffer from these problems.
As much as I love the old XJ, I'm inclined to stick with my LS cars. While the LS lacks the allure of the XJ, it does give you a piece of mind. I've maintained that if Lexus could design cars with a Jaguar flair, they'd sell like hot cakes. I do hope they pull through however, as there is nothing like a Jaguar.
SV
The new XJ has a curve in its rear doors that starts at the end, like old Jaguars. The previous XJ didn't have that curve.
The new XJ's outer headlights are bigger than the inner headlights, like the original XJ.
The new XJ's wheels are pushed out to the corners, like the original XJ.
The new Porsche 911 looks good and its styling hasn't changed much over the 40 years.
Here is a 2004 XJR in "Zircon" with the optional 20 inch BBS wheels.
Here is another 2004 XJR.
The new aluminum XJ was tested extensively at Germany's demanding Nurburgring race track.
As to the new XJ's technology.
As I've said before, the 2005 Jaguar Super V8 weighs over 800 pounds less than a BMW 760Li thanks to its advanced aluminum chassis and use of relevant technology.
The new XJR and Super V8 come standard with Brembo brakes which include four-piston calipers.
The new XJ has a ZF 6 speed automatic transmission which I found to be quite responsive when I drove one (a 2004 XJR).
The new XJR has optional 20 inch BBS wheels which are high quality.
The new XJ will be available with Bluetooth next month.
http://q45.spilky.com/cd1989compari...howdown_pg3.pdf
http://q45.spilky.com/cd1989compari...howdown_pg4.pdf
http://q45.spilky.com/cd1989compari...howdown_pg5.pdf
http://q45.spilky.com/cd1989compari...howdown_pg6.pdf
http://q45.spilky.com/cd1989compari...howdown_pg7.pdf
http://q45.spilky.com/cd1989compari...howdown_pg8.pdf
http://q45.spilky.com/cd1989compari...howdown_pg9.pdf
http://q45.spilky.com/cd1989compari...owdown_pg10.pdf
http://q45.spilky.com/cd1989compari...owdown_pg11.pdf
http://q45.spilky.com/cd1989compari...owdown_pg12.pdf
If you'd like to scroll to the end to see the final stats .....look in the *_pg10.pdf. Interesting how things were back then.....
I'm not to sure about the styling of new BMWs. They had record sales last year along with record recalls and service actions. Here is a 2004 BMW 5 series and a second generation M5 which was handbuilt (so was 1st generation) unlike the new V-8 and V-10-powered M5s. All second generation M5s had forged aluminum wheels.
(BMW also built an M5 Touring from 92-95)
Here is a BMW 850CSi (big, fast BMW coupe for the 90s)
Here is a new 6 series
Here is the revised 7 series
Here is the new M6
Car & Driver picked up their long-term 2004 XJR in the summer of 2004, which was shorty after production of the new aluminum XJ began.
Car & Driver's long-term 2004 Jaguar XJR
Also, the 2005 Jaguar Super V8, the flagship XJ, gets better fuel economy than the BMW 760Li.
....but, membership has it's privileges.
As I've said before, if you're shopping in this pricepoint, for any brand, that means somewhere, someone is paying you a significant profit, and life is VERY good. If you take up my time and expertise, then take your business elsewhere over the few dollars in net profit Benz places on their vehicle, then you get from me what you paid for. If you're putting more importance on the moment of glory at point of sale, than on the years ahead, then that is what you bought yourself. Again, why in the world would I stay late, provide free transportation, overnight a part or accessory, do anything for a person who put money in someone else's coffers?
It is not the buyers privledge to use the service dept ..it is his right...Quality Service is critical in the high end market...as is Friendly, Accomodating, knowledgable staff from the receptionist to sales to service to management should be the norm and not a Privdledge handed out to a few "Special" customers...Those that can afford your product are all Special.
When those of us who own Lexus talk about the company and the Car ...the service is one of the big reasons we become repeat customers not just the outstanding quality and value of the machine itself.
I don’t understand. When I take my BMW in for service I deal with the service department not salesperson. Haven't had a problem. They also go out of their way to get me the type of loaner car I ask for. I attribute this to the good business practices of the specific dealer. Are you telling us that your service department sucks and clients have to come back to you for support? You expect customers to pay you for this arrangement? I am all for the salesperson making a living, but it sounds like there could be something rotten in Denmark at your dealership and among your competing dealerships. Your gripe should be with MB and the dealership, not the clients.
In my personal experience, I have had salespeople befriend me even though I hadn't bought a car from them (like when I moved to a new town, etc.), likely with the hope that I would buy my next car from them. But if you shop the car with a salesperson, then go buy it somewhere else, and then come back to the local salesperson and ask for some extra favors, human nature is such that you are likely to note at least a hint of displeasure from the salesperson.
I understand fully...If I shop with Several Sales people in my area...
1) I am likely to go back to the Dealer I bought from.
2) If I bought from out of the Area and am using the local dealer for service that is potentually considerable income to them...If I dealt with the Sales guy there but bought somewhere else...HE NEEDS to understand I will buy another car someday, My wife and my Daughter will need cars someday....The fact that he or his dealership could not be competitive and provide me the support I needed to get a good price from them the first time around SHOULD NOT MATTER...I will be a buyer again and they are getting another chance TO EARN MY BUSINESS.
Thanks!
True. But the 760 is heavier, and has more HP and torque. No bad for 1 less mpg highway, 2 less city.
I agree with your BMW styling comments; i am not pleased with the new look. Jag definitely, IMO, makes a pretier vehicle.
PS: i think we all know what the aluminum frame looks like now.
dave
"Doesn't seem like its an obsolete design to me."
Well we have the RL Large coming out soon. Progress you know.
-When you look far and wide enough, you can dig up some dirt on every culture, government, business entity, etc., out there. When it comes to ethics, politics, morals and the like, you can't judge the past in the context of the present.
-I'll say this, as much as I LOVE the CLS, and I do, I am glad they don't offer it in yellow.
I'm glad luxury cars like the Maserati Quattroporte are made. It isn't just a way to get from point A to point B like a Lexus LS. It has soul in a way that a Lexus will never match. Plus, it is going to be available with a Ferrari V-12 according to autoweek.com
Jaguar should have given Road & Track the new Super V8 to test. The S500 starts at almost $87,000 while the Super V8 starts at $89,995.
"During World War II, the company [Toyota] was dedicated to truck production for the Imperial Army."
from http://www.japan-101.com/business/toyota.htm
...they were in China at the time Japan invaded...
There are people out there who similarly won't buy German product because of the war association.
Time to get over it all, imho. The people working for those companies now are not old enough to have had anything to do with WW2.
Anyway, I'm going to try to repost the salient links, again.
Attn: Jag bashers: BMW used the Nikasil liners in their 7 Series also a decade or so ago. The results are easily seen on the 7 Series Board where they discuss the lousy V8 engines of the mid-90s.
XKSS, thanks for the great photos and links. The XJ sedan in Zircon looks fantastic and I think given the low MSRP is a good buy.
Now, if Jaguar would just call Haldex (the supplier of the electronic AWD to Volvo) they would have a chance of moving up in the big sedan market and perhaps put to rest that it is a "woman's car". I know I am thin ice when I say this, but a lot of the target audience in the Northeast tend to be males that go into the hospital, plant or office early and stay late. They are now doing this in MB four matics or lux SUVs because 6 months a year you maybe ain't going to get home at 8PM in a rear wheel driver. Say the AWD bumped up the XJ Moroney by 3K. That would still be thousands under a comparable S four matic, there is no 7 Series AWD, and Lexus ? By going AWD with the sedan it would open up the Northeast US market. .
http://q45.spilky.com/cd1989comparison/CD_12_89_Showdown_pg1.pdf
The stats
http://q45.spilky.com/cd1989comparison/CD_12_89_Showdown_pg10.pdf
And the final ratings/scores....
http://q45.spilky.com/cd1989comparison/CD_12_89_Showdown_pg12.pdf
What's the point/purpose of the CLS again ? cos I don't get it....
-the point of the CLS is a more eccentric design statement from Benz, perhaps the same way the 300/magnum are to chrysler-dodge, that also blends practicality (4-doors, big trunk) with emotional elements of an impractical sports car. It has definitely polarized people, they either feel strongly one way or the other about it, but very few are indifferent. You should drive one...