Actually, even though the rotating assembly of a fresh motor seems tight, the truth is, that when those pistons and rods start moving very fast, there's a lot of inertia stored up in those parts. Think of inertia as a resistance to changing direction. Every time the pistons come to the top of there stroke, they instantaneously stop before they change direction. The faster your assembly is turning, the more inertia the pistons and rods are developing. This "inertia" sort of stretches the parts only the slightest amount, but there is stretch!
Now go back to what "mbnut1" mentioned about the ring groove. Piston rings, do in fact, develop a groove inside the cylinder. This groove is actually the step down from the original cylinder wall diameter to the "etched out" new cylinder wall diameter. Cars that are never pushed hard will be more prone to damage, once the groove is formed and the car is pushed really hard. This is because the inertia is forcing the rings against these high points at very high speeds.
So, you see...in order to give your car a "well rounded" break-in, you need to have that ring groove as high as you can get it. Therefore, you need to push the engine...just don't overdue it. Take it to redline and then immediately back off. Oh yeah...make sure your engine is at operating temperature, BEFORE you follow the above instructions eb.
p.s. I got confirmation that my A4 order is filled, and that it should be about 2-3 months before I get it!!!!!
So I guess the concensus is, rev it high up (but not to the redline) slowly to get rid of the groove inside the cylinder from time to time during the break-in period. That sounds alright, and hope the right foot don't get too happy and do that all the time :>
Oh by the way, when I meant "melt together", I meant wearing of the parts so they work coherently with each other.....I didn't mean the metals will actually bond together :> Sorry for the confusion.
Uh oh ebnk, it'll be the longest 2-3 months in your life :>
from running out to get some lunch. I read through the article posted earlier, and so I drove a bit more aggressively. The car just leaps forward. Very nice. It's not so much the absolute power or brute force, its the feeling of just effortless acceleration.
Of course, it doesn't help too much that where I work is less than a mile from the Indianapolis Motor Speedway, where time trials are under way. There's nothing like the whine of a racecar to take my mind off of teaching math...
Just curious. Those of you who have obtained quotes on line, did you e-mail dealers direct or use something like Autobytel?
I did both. Tried Autobytel (still waiting actually) and the nearest dealer that works with them is down in IL (I'm in Milwaukee). I went to AudiUSA and took a look to confirm local dealers within 90 miles of home and found about 6. I e-mailed directly to 3 of the 6 to inquire about availability and pricing of the A4 set up I'm hunting for. Still waiting on all of the above.
I was gonna try to quit reading and posting on Edmunds especially after my embarrassing post of yesterday on this forum but *shoot*...it's so damn addicting! I guess I just love reading and talking about new cars! But *sheesh* --it's just taking up way to much of my time! Ok, well, I guess I will just have to admit it: I'm hooked!--I've got the disease. But I'm going to try to keep it under control so hopefully all of you won't continue to be over-burdened with my inane and sometimes ridiculous posts.
Billy-- I made a mistake when I said that my salesman told me do disregard what the owners manual stated. I meant to say he "intimated" that fact. I agree, he'd be pretty stupid to come right out and say that although I'd be pretty surprised if the manufacturer could actually prove, after many miles have been "racked-up" that some defect was due to disregard of the proper break-in rules.
Louie-- congratulations! 14 miles! yay! Mine had 24 miles with 14 miles on the trip odometer. What's up with that??? It was just like a factory order for I had locked up the purchase before it had arrived in dealer stock. Were the ten miles put on before arrival at the dealership?--or were they put on at the dealership; possibly by someone taking the car out for a test drive (and possibly revving it over 3,000 rpm ...lol!). I'd have to imagine that the trip odometer was reset to zero by the prep guy and he put on the additional 14 miles from the factory 10 but 14 miles seems like too many for prep purposes. The sales rep assured me at the time I put my deposit down that nobody would be taking it out on a test drive. I really didn't question it at the time of delivery because there were just to many things to go over during the orientation/delivery process. Oh well, I guess I'll just have to live with it now. Did I remember you saying that you opted out of Quattro? I thought I remember you saying that you ordered it with fwd and sport. and hey, are you looking forward to that NSX someday as much as I am? ;-) lol.
Derek-- Thanx for the article on break-in. Interesting reading... I missed that one over at AW.
Jeff-- I too started out by emailing. I found that dealers really don't like to quote prices on email because it just gives ammunition to the prospective buyer to go to another dealer and negotiate. Go to the forums in the "Smart Shopper" section of TownHall--there's some pretty interesting forums over there. I ended up doing all my information gathering and negotiating over the phone but by still pitting one dealer against the other. They know the game so I didn't really gain too much other than frustration. A friend of mine used Priceline.com where they get bids from the dealers for you after you give them a price that you are willing to pay for the car configured the way you want it. I would have tried that service had I known about it. http://auto.priceline.com/autos/infoctr/help/FastNEasy.asp?session_key=230011AC240011AC200105082003289a7a70421634
I hope it's alright to site outside sources like this. If not, I guess this post will be deleted anyway. My intent is not to advertise this service but only to use it as another method for I have never used priceline. Pat??
let me know what drugs you take cuz I need some too for my addiction :> Hey I embarrassed myself by using the wrong terms too.....no worries Scirocco, just stick around and we need to keep this forum alive!!
Mine had 16 miles when I took delivery, so I assumed that no one took the car out for a test drive except me (hopefully) :>
Just came back from a close call.....stupid car slowed down suddenly and turned right into a parking lot.....I immediately downshifted into 3rd gear and gun it to 50mph and changed lane to the left in front of the GrandAm and cut right back to the right lane into my lane.....some sweat but actually proved how awesome Quattro is again.....I'm sensing these stock Goodyears are going to wear out pretty soon.....hehe I actually want them to wear soon so I can have an excuse to buy some performance tires, some 17" rims, and winter tires for the stock 15" rims.
Billy
P.S. Hey Scirocco, what's your first name? Is that your screen name or first name?
lol, ok, I'll keep posting for awhile longer on this thread then but, man, I tell ya, I just spent over an hour reading some forums over on the "Smart Shopper" boards and that was just reading; I didn't even post anything! I'm really spending too much time here on Edmunds! I definitely have the disease; I AM an Edmundsaholic alright! :P
You mean you couldn't have done the same maneuver without Quattro??? lol. Maybe the guy in the GrandAm was wondering "why is that stupid Audi following me so closely?" No, just kidding. ;-)
Scirocco is my nickname. My buddies started calling me that years ago when they realized how much I was enamored with my VW--dang, I loved that car! Now days they usually just call me "rocco" although it's nowhere near what my real name first name is. Perhaps I'll reveal that at a later time when I'm sure that my identity with the car salesmen I've delt with while negotiating the purchase of my A4 have possibly forgotten whom I might be... lol. I know that one in particular and possibly others read these boards and if they haven't already figured out who I am, I might as well keep them in the dark for awhile.
Ok, I think I'm going to go over the "Maintenance and Repair" board and read the "self oil change" thread ...um, no, maybe not--maybe I just better get to bed.
p.s.-- on a previous post, after re-reading what I wrote, I noticed that I made the mistake of using "to" instead of "too." I don't know if that was the result of the spell-checker or what, but I also don't want to appear to be totally uneducated on top of being an idiot. lol
I had to jump in after reading all of your messages. I have now owned my Y2K A4 2.8 quattro for 1-1/2 years. Except for a minor rattle which was quickly remedied (it was the passenger's door handle not tightened), and a defective remote when I picked up the car, the only thing I have encountered is the check engine light just recently, which resulted in a defective sensor, which was also quickly fixed, the car is awesome.
I still look forward to getting into it every morning on my ride to work, and can't wait to leave work to drive it home. I also find all kinds of excuses to drive everywhere. I owned a Prelude for 11 years before the Audi, and thought nothing can replace that car in the fun factor category, but boy was I wrong.
In fact, I had many more problems with my Prelude from day 1, including having to replace the entire air conditioning system, which never worked right, and lots of other stuff. I have owned a few Toyotas as well, and have had more problems with them than I have had with the Audi. The Audi has never left my stranded, nor has it ever not started. I find it extremely reliable, and am grappling about whether to get an extended warranty or not.
I am also grappling about possibly selling this model for the new A4 coming out in the fall. I would give it a year to get out any glitches it may have before I decide what to do.
I am totally sold on the A4. I think it's the perfect sports sedan, without having the stigma that the BMW has in my eyes. Except for the BMW, there is no other car (except maybe the Volvo S60 with AWD), that would get my money or attention.
You guys made a great choice. My husband and I also own an Acura TL and love that as well, but both agree that the A4 is head and shoulders above the TL, except for the acceleration, which should be corrected with the new model.
Good luck with your car. You will love it more every day. It still amazes me how intuitive everything in the car is, and how comfortable the ride is. Have fun driving!
Yup I guess I am also growing on my A4 everyday. I dunno about you guys, but I check on "her" every night before I go to bed (OK, maybe 80% of the times).
It's interesting to hear that your Prelude gave you more problems. I had a 96 Accord before the A4 and it's problem free for 120,000 miles except a defective driver's window motor and an over-reactive power door lock. I actually had extended warranty on the Accord till 100,000 miles and I think the $$ I paid for that was actually MORE than the $$ it took to fix those 2 glitches..... :<
I'm thinking maybe not that many car manufacturers had perfected the "art" of car making about 12.5 years ago.....I guess the same can say for American cars nowadays but still.....my girlfriend's Civic had been running great for the last 4 years and really qualifies as problem-free. I just *hope* the A4 can do the same thing cuz fixing German cars without warranty is EXPENSIVE.....I might do the same thing eventually, to purchase an extended warranty.....is there a deadline, like I need to buy it within a certain amount of time within the purchase of the car?
Yeah Scirocco, why don't you let us know what you found in the Self Oil Change section.....I read on audiworld that Audi charges $80 for an oil change.....OMG. Even if they put synthetic oil into the car, there's NO way it costs $80 for an oil change. It's time to crawl under the car and do it myself :>
You know, funny thing is it already costs me around $50 for an oil change on my '98 Dodge Dakota. That's using Synthetic and done by a 10- minute change place. So, $80 at an Audi dealership doesn't completely blow me away, though certainly doesn't thrill me. (By the way, synthetic made quite a difference in gas mileage on the old pick up....bumped it up from 14mpg to 15.5 mpg!! Whoo hooo.)
As for maintaining, heck I'd be paying $90/hr at the dodge dealership the way it is and they rake you over the coals for parts, it's unbelievable. I may just be guessing, but I doubt Audi dealership charges much more per hour for labor, though parts may still be considerably more.
By the way, now going on 36 hrs. and still no response from any dealers on quotes. Looks like no avoiding the "leg work."
Last thing, will Audi be delivering one last shipment of 2001.5 A4's to dealerships, or are we down to "what you see is what you get." I'm guessing it may depend on the dealership, but curious if there's a hard and fast answer.
Yeah, I did opt for no quattro. I took a cloverleaf at about 45mph last night, and the car didn't even lean...totally flat (ok, not TOTally). I made my decision based on owning a 95 Eclipse GSX and having troubles with the AWD and not really noticing any difference in handling properties. I may be wrong, but I'm still happy with my choice.
For all those people who can't imagine getting an Audi without Quattro? I guess I'm just comfortable with liking what I like...
I guess I'm still used to the $30 non-synthetic Honda oil changes.....but I assume you use slightly more oil in the Dodge right? OK oil is not that expensive.....oh well I guess I need to get used to it then.....after we get out of the 4yr-50k maintenance incl period :<
Well I think you need to do what scirocco did....calling the dealers and let them fight over the phone rather than just fax or email. I dunno how many of those they got each day but faxes and emails might not be taken as serious as phone calls.
Audi is not letting dealers to put in fresh order, as far as I heard. Dealers can still change options on existing orders, so if you do it fast they might be able to change one or dealer trade the cars.
Yup, looks like you're right on the money. Got my first and only dealer response this afternoon via the closest (and only "locally" participating) Autobytel.com dealer. Looks to be a generic cover letter from the the dealer's internet rep. It answers absolutely nothing for me. Considering this dealer is 95 miles away I doubt I'll persue further. Looks like it's time to pound the local dealers by phone as suggested.
It's disappointing, really. They "talk-up" the internet as a great way to open up lines of communication with multiple dealers...saves time....cut to the chase...etc, etc. Looks like I was just dreaming that it would actually be true.
Well I guess dealers still want you to go there, drive the car, see the service dept, meet all the "friendly" people who work there.....etc etc etc that don't worth a thing to us who are already sold on an Audi. Scirocco, tell us how you "sweet talk" those Audi dealers over the phone to get your deal!
I didn't try email or fax or even the phone.....here in Chicagoland we have about 8 dealers within 30 miles so I just went to a few of them, got a deal of a little less than 3% over invoice, and stopped visiting other dealers cuz the A4 was calling my name :> You better act fast.....someone over in audiworld said some dealers have actually stopped taking orders for 2001.5 A4's and you can only change options on dealer stock orders.
And, stop sitting on the couch sipping beer....go out and drive to your Audi dealerships!!
Well, unfortunately my closest dealer is 30 min. away. Already hit him up ($1600 over inv.), but didn't even BEGIN to haggle. My next closest is 45 min. in the opposite direction. I'll be calling and visiting this weekend. After that, I've got a minimum of 70 miles to the nearest fantasy-land. I'm just going to have to bite the bullet and start doing some phone haggling. Unfortunately, inconvenience can make you apprehensive. I guess my other question is on servicing. Obviously I know I'll be having it serviced at the nearest dealer available. However, I also know there's a better than average chance I WON'T be buying it from him. Will that in ANY way affect the service I would receive. In theory, it shouldn't. In fact, well.....
Jeff-- I ended up buying from a dealership almost 100 miles away when the closest dealership to my home is just about a mile down the street. Theoretically, I was saving over $700 by buying from the dealer who was 100 miles away so I went ahead and bought the car from them. The day after I bought the car, the dealership down the road called and offered to sell me exactly the same car (equipped car) for $25 less. *arg!!* They actually came down more than $700 off the previously negotiated price which at the time they claimed was the ABSOLUTELY the lowest they could go! Jeez, go figure--the games they play! We play the game maybe every 4-5 years if that but they are experts at the art of negotiating for they are "playing" multiple times a day. So yes, I too will probably be getting my car serviced at the dealer down the street even though I didn't buy it from them. As I posted before, in theory, since the sales department and the service department are actually separate entities within the dealership, it shouldn't make any difference to them where you bought the car. Any Audi service department should welcome your business because even on routine maintenance or warranty work they still make a slight profit even though they are being reimbursed by the manufacturer (I belive this to be true, anyway). They are also hoping that you'll continue to bring your car there for service after the warranty has expired. But should you have a problem with service or the car in general, it stands to reason that the dealership from which you purchased the car would tend to take better care of you. This would be even more the case if you had let them make a reasonable profit from the sale of the car. The salesperson that sold you the car can also play a part in what kind of service you receive according to the various message boards that I've read and also from talking to different sales reps themselves. An example being, at the service department of the dealership down the street from me, one has to make a service appointment more than two months in advance. The salesperson there kept telling me not to worry about that when I voiced my concern as to the absurdity of making an appointment that far in advance. He told me to call him directly and he would make arrangements to get me in immediately for he stated: "we want to take care of our own customers." This illustrates that the sales and service departments are obviously not completely separte from each other--afterall, they are under the same ownership.
I used MSN's Carpoint both when I tried to buy a Jetta and when I started shopping for my A4. Carpoint assures yout that the specified dealer will contact you by e-mail within 24 hours which I found to be the case but they didn't quote a price but rather just requested that you call them for a quote. I also found that you can negotiate a price quite a bit below the Carpoint quote so using the service to your advantage would seem to be moot.
Did you look at the Priceline.com site? If you did, what were your opinions of their technique?
Billy-- I just about missed your comment on my "sweet talking" over the phone. lmao! No, I obviously didn't sweet talk enough because as it turned out, I didn't really do that good of a job negotiating. I wish I had it to do all over again for I think I could do a lot better now! As I stated in the previous post, years go by before schmucks like us buy new cars where car dealers and their salespeople are negotiating with buyers numerous times a day so they know all the tricks and the ins-and-outs of this car buying "game." Personally, I hate negotiating. I wish every car could be purchased like a Saturn. Lots of people like the haggling that buying a car involves; I don't! I find it emotionally draining and extremely frustrating. And no matter what I'm able to get the price down to, in the end, I always feel I've been taken--which I know I have; I'm sure the salespeople are laughing at me after I've left. "Man, Lenny, that dude actually thought he got the better of us! *hahahahaha*" no, probably isn't that bad but car dealers are obviously trying to get the most profit out of each sale and most likely won't sell you the car unless there is some profit in it for them. True, sometimes they'll sell a car for marginal profit if they are trying to make some quota but bottom line, they're not going to loose money just to make a quota, IMO.
Anyway, before buying this car, I made a promise to myself not to go into a dealership in person and go through the negotiating process on their territory. That's what I find so stressful and most frustrating... when they get you into that little room and do the running back-and-forth to the manager routine. So this time I vowed to do all my fact gathering and negotiating by e-mail and phone. It wasn't a really thought out plan but essentially all I did was get a quote from one dealer and then call the other dealer to see if they could beat it. This went back and forth several times until neither dealer would respond back in which case I had to assume that it was the lowest price point either could go. At that point, I then had to make a choice. Obviously my timing was a bit off (as well as the dealer's) because the dealer from whom I really wanted to buy the car was one day late in their counter-offer for I had already bought the car one day earlier. At-any-rate, the process was much better than being in that pressure cooker little room in the dealer's showroom--believe me, I'll NEVER buy a car that way again!
As far as servicing at another dealer other than the one you purchased the car at, the only glitch might be that you will not be entitled to loaner cars when your car is serviced. Generally, only the dealer that sold you the car will give you loaner cars, so if this is a problem, think about the convenience you would have at the dealer you would be servicing it at, even if he charges you a little bit more money.
My feeling is I would pay a little more for no hassles. It's worth it in the long run.
Yup Equalizer is right. I have 2 dealers within 8 miles from me but I went to the one that's 25 miles away to buy mine cuz they gave me the best deal. This past weekend the Lakes Region Quattro Club held a gathering at one of those 2 dealers which are 8 miles from me, and I talked to the sales manager.....he said they welcome my business BUT they might not be able to provide loaner cars....and he gave me his card and told me he will work something out.....I hope being the club's member will help me out.....but I guess IF they can give out loaner cars to me, I'll be like in the bottom of the priority list and priority will be given to those who bought from them.
It's funny though, when we were there, there was an A4 coming in on a flat-bed tow truck. Of course it's not a welcoming sight, and the sales manager made us feel good by giving the owner an A6 2.7T loaner....Dang we're like, wow, let's hope our car goes out of commission and tow it here so we can get THAT as a loaner :>
I guess I will bring my car there for my 5k service when it comes up. If the sales manager can really do something by giving me a loaner even I didn't buy from there, I will go there for all my future services.....otherwise I guess I will make the 25 mile trip up to my dealer.....
So, how does this loaner-gig work? Supposedly if you buy the car from a given dealer, they'll give out a loaner for repairs or service appts.? Curious if they'll only give the loaner out to customers living within a given radius? Anybody have any idea on Audi turn-around time for scheduled service? Suppose it depends on the dealer, but even so, the ability to get a loaner when needed, knowing you'll have to take it in regularly over the first 4yr/50k set up, would be worth paying a few extra bucks for upfront. (IMHO)
As far as I understand, they will give you a loaner (first come first served, not a guarantee, and sometimes it might not be an Audi loaner) when you bring your car in for service and repairs. I don't think there is a radius in where you can drive it, alright maybe you shouldn't take it for a cross country drive.
Turnaround time.....I have no clue, as mine has only 2,700 miles on it and man I'd be really pissed if I need to bring it in b4 the 5k service.....but I did notice the passenger's side vent is loose.....1 or 2 of the fins would not move with the rest.....minor things.
However I heard things like a lonnnnnng wait for scheduling appointments. Dunno if the Audi dealers are taking the time to fix/service the cars, or maybe Audi's screw up more than AoA thought (touch wood).
I inquired extensively about loaner cars before I purchased my car and this is what I concluded: Loaner car policy is up the the individual dealership as far as routine maintenance goes. I know the dealer where I bought my car doesn't give out loaners EVEN to those who bought the car from them UNLESS the repairs for warranty work entails them to keep the car overnight. When the car has to be kept more than a day, Audi (the manufacturer) reimburses the dealer for the cost of the loaner. So it's Audi's policy to provide you with a loaner if the car has to be kept more than one day for warranty repairs only but not for just routine maintenance. It's up to the individual dealership whether they want to provide free service loaners to their customers for routine maintenance. Only one dealer out of the four that I shopped at had a free loaner policy. Those that didn't told me that they would RENT a service loaner upon request at a reduced or "corporate" rate ($10-20/day). The dealership that did offer free loaners, believe it or not, will offer anyone a free loaner if you book the appointment far enough in advance even if you didn't buy the car there (this illustrates the example of the sales/service departments being separate entites argument for the service department just wants your business, period). But no matter what, you will be provided a free loaner by Audi (the manufacturer) if warranty work necessitates the car being held by the dealer for more than one day no matter which authorized Audi dealer you choose.
So yes, maybe it has to be taken into consideration when shopping dealers as to how important a free loaner is to you for just the routine stuff. Do you really need a loaner for just an oil change? For me, after contemplating it for awhile, it didn't seem to matter that much especially when I knew I could reserve a rental car, if I really had to have it, for a small fee.
Threre are two dealerships in Cincinnati -- one East Side, one North Side. Both dealers provide "loaner cars" -- even for an oil change. Dealer will also pick up and deliver car, but in this case, you are left without a car to drive until they return.
Loaners are often A6 2.8's, once I got an S4 (although it had an automatic). When they run out of Audis, they use Neons -- the cars always have AC and they do require you to bring them back with at least as much gas in them as when you were "loaned" them.
They do not permit smoking in the Audi loaners -- even the key chains have a "this is a non smoking car" on them. Since I don't smoke this is not a problem for me, my guess is they have a fumigation charge if you smoke in one of them.
In any case, this policy started in 1988 (when the Audi Advantage Started) and continues to this day. The cars are otherwise free of charge and generally free of hassle.
WOW! Thanks guys. I was most worried about loaners for multiple day warranty repairs, which you certainly seemed to answer for me.
Lord knows I don't get anywhere NEAR that kind of consideration when the ol' pick-up goes in. LOL
I've just got my fingers crossed that the "loaner" won't be needed at ALL if I end up with an A4. I'll have to do my "no-lemons for JB" dance before I seal any deals.
OH....one last thing I've REALLY been wondering. When you all went on test drives, did the salesman go with you? The one drive I had in an A4 included the salesman....claimed he had to for insurance reasons. I hate it. My wife and I never felt comfortable talking openly while we were driving. I may plead my case should this happen again. Just wondering what others encountered and if there is any real "policy" on the issue or if it's just dealer to dealer. The one Audi dealer visited was the ONLY dealer of ANY make that did this to us.
Thanks Scirocco and MarkCincinnatti for clearing that up.....so does that mean, let's say the engine won't start (not just an oil change) and I got it towed to ANY Audi dealership, that they'll provide a loaner car?? At least theoretically??
Well bast2, the few times that I went for test driving the A4, yes the dealers came with me, giving reasons like insurance and such. I got a few "wicked" ideas to kick them out:
1. Bring 4 other people along. Now the dealer can't really say, OK, 1 of you can't go cuz I need to go....right? I haven't tried that one cuz people hate me (LOL, just kidding).
2. Test drive a more expensive model, let the dealer come along, drive around for like 45 minutes (the idea here is to put the dealer to sleep and let him see how safe you drive and how troublesome you are cuz you keep him away for so long he might lose some of the other potential customers at the dealership). Then drive back and ask for the model/options you want and then do another test drive. Kindly tell him/her, you are a VERY careful person and a very serious buyer, and you want to spend extra time in your *potential* future car. Tell him because of hte same reason, you will drive it very carefully and in a safe way. I tried that once in a BMW dealership and it worked.
3. Tell them you need to FEEL the car with ONLY you in the car. Tell them it won't be long.
The last time I took an Audi (allroad) for a test drive, the salesperson just flipped me the keys and said "have fun." I had just come from an Acura dealership, having test driven an Acura MDX. The salesman there not only went with me but gave me a specific route to follow, telling me when to make each turn, etc. I realize that policies will vary from dealer to dealer and salesman to salesman, but this was my experience -- Joel
JBaumgart: That's EXACTLY what happened to me!! He had a damn route I had to follow! I didn't feel any sense of freedom to "stretch its legs." In fact, my wife drove the route first, then back to dealership where we switched and I got to drive the same route again! I felt like I was on a carnival ride.
At the VW dealership the salesman took us for a 2 min. spin to explain Tiptronic, since neither of us had used it before. Then he flipped us the keys and said have a good time. We drove all over the area: country roads, highway, city driving. We switched and did it all over. We stopped got out in a parking lot and gave it a great "once over," checking out the trunk, room in the back seat, engine, did a couple of slow "walk arounds." It was great, I really walked away a fan of the Passat from that test drive (even though the salesman was a complete putz, didn't know ANYTHING specific about the car.)
I'm dying to give the A4 the same attention and get a true feel for it. We'll see what happens this weekend.
You never know what they'll do. When looking at A4's, my salesman went on the first spin to show us what all the stuff on the car was. Then he handed us the keys and told us to take our time. Same thing at the BMW dealer. You never know until you ask.
Once I drove a beater to the dealership and they didn't even want to say hi to me.....and then I drove my souped-up (a little) Accord and left my business casual attire on and went over the the Audi dealerships and BMW ones and they definitely treated me differently.
Of course also depends on the location of the dealership.....suburb dealerships are more accomodating than the city dealerships, which is understandable.
Here in Cincinnati each high line German car dealership will do about the same thing which is:
1. Have you ever driven a BMW? A Stick Shift?
If no -- and you do not look like a dead beat -- they will take you on a short drive to familiarize you with the vehicle. The BMW salesperson actually drove the car on a very twisty road to demonstrate the "goes like it's on rails" claim.
If yes -- and you do not look like a dead beat -- they will give you the keys and generally say "take it on the streets AND freeways."
2. Have you driven an "S" or "E" or "C" Class Mercedes? Well, you know that this model takes 2 and a half hours to deliver -- and I usually spend half that time on the guidance package and safety features alone.
If no -- I'll go with you to familiarize you with the features of the car -- then you can take it out, if you want.
3. Do you know anything about Audis?
If yes, here are the keys -- if you want to drive a specific car, off the lot, I'll go with you to the gas station and put some gas in it, then you can drive it.
If no, let me go over the car very briefly -- here is one on the showroom floor (the discussion always includes the stick versus Tiptronic questions) -- if you do not have any manual tranny experiecne, they will ALWAYS insist that they go with you if you are test driving a stick car.
The Audi and BMW dealers seem most like they want to give you some space, after they are convinced that you know what you are doing -- they even, sometimes, make sure you are "OK" with the audio system, since -- especially on the Bimmers -- there are subwoofer buttons and equalizers that they want you to "appreciate."
The Audi dealers seem to love it when you test drive there cars during the week and on rainy or snowy days (wonder why)?
I drove the BMW AWD car -- very nice, overpriced compared to the Audi. The 330ix costs more than an S4 (optioned out, that is). And, although the BMW actually has a back seat, the difference in the size of the car does not justify, by any stretch, the price.
The 2002 A4 3.0 quattro with sport, appears to be (to me at least) a car that should "concern" BMW salespeople trying to sell a 330ix versus an A4 3.0 quattro (2002) -- but then again, BMW will undoubtedly respond to the competition and up the ante again.
At this point, IMO, I can't figure out the attraction of the Mercedes -- it seems like an Old Persons Car (at least at these price points). Kinda like when I was much younger and looked at Caddys -- that's the way I felt driving a Mercedes (although less so the E and C class than the S class). And, no, I am not comparing an S class Merc to either an A4 or 330 -- more like an A8 or 7 Series -- but the Merc just feels like my memory of my Uncle's Caddy.
But, as usual, I digress.
Here is my motto -- I will NOT buy a car from a dealer who "for insurance reasons" won't let me take the car out alone or with my wife or my friend. If they insist in riding with me, I just don't go back.
Billy: Well, I'll be sure to shower and run a comb through my hair before headn' off to the dealers this weekend. LOL Hell, maybe I'll even wear shoes.
Mark: I'm with ya on the test drive theory. I think I NEED to drive without the salesperson. I'll be making a point to press the issue. And if they refuse....
Okay, starting to get pumped up. Now I've just got to get my wife pumped up enough to get in the car and come along. She hates this crap, but it'll be her car....a motivational factor.
Bast2: Yeah you should wear your shoes when you enter the dealership, but wonder how they do heel-and-toe shifting......mmmm, LOL.
When I took the Audi out for a spin, the salesguy chose the windiest road (a residential road with a 30mph speed limit ONLY) and told me to floor it, hold it at 2nd or 3rd gear, and just go. Heck I was like, are you going to pay for my speeding ticket.....anyhow I can definitely feel the difference between an Audi w/Quattro and a BMW RWD. It's fun to watch cars oversteer on the TV, and it might be fun to do it on the track, but I don't like it on my way to work, no thanks.
Well bast2, I took my girlfriend for one of the test drives, and she won't go with me after the 2nd time. Why? Cuz the first test drive, we visited the BMW dealership and I asked for a 325ci 5-spd. They don't have one in stock, and I thought it's just a nasty excuse not to let me drive it, BUT instead they said they have a 325ci CONVERTIBLE.....my eyes lighted up and they lighted up even more when he handed me the keys and told us to enjoy it. It's January in Chicago and a "heat" wave brought the temp into the 40's and sure enough, we took the top down and everybody thought we're nuts. Then we went to an Audi dealership and I liked the Quattro so much, I tried pretty hard to get it to understeer. Girlfriend then complained about nausea and that pretty much ended it :> Sorry honey, but I want to see if the Quattro option is worth it, and it definitely worths it.
Hehe so don't tell your wife you're gonna do that before the drive :>
As long as you are willing to leave them a copy of your driver's license, the dealer should be willing to let you go out alone. I can definitely understand the exception if the dealer is in a highly populated city. If they don't let you, then just walk out and tell them you'll be doing business with a dealer that trusts you. A follow up phone call to the sales mgr may also help the salesman get the point.
I would like a little feedback on a small problem i have.. i would really like to get myself an A4.. i've read up on it for a long time and compared it to many other cars.. i feel i have a good grasp of the car and find it to be an excellent value.. i've even test driven it and i've pretty much become obsessed with it.. the problem is that the closest dealer is about 100 miles away.. should i be worried about servicing and the possiblity of encountering a lemon in which case i would be hiking up a two hour drive quite often or having to pay for it to be towed.. Hopefully u guys may have some insightful advice.. should i trust audi not to be worried about a lemon?
Any car manufacturer can produce a lemon...that's a car that just didn't come together right, and for whatever reason it just sucks. Think of a famous chef having a cake just come out wrong once in a while. You wouldn't blame the chef, would you? Not unless suddenly all his pastries were worthless lumps of dough. Same thing with a car maker.
If you're obsessing about it, you'll probably regret not getting it if you pass up the chance -- unless, of course, you can find another vehicle that you're equally obsessed with at a closer dealership. Like you, I did a lot of reading about the A4 and thought it sounded like a great car. I also had the impression that it was pretty reliable, based on postings here, in AudiWorld and in various auto magazines. I faced a different kind of decision re. practicality, though: I do lots of landscaping and had been looking for a very utilitarian vehicle, something I could haul plants in (like a small SUV). I decided to test-drive an A4 after reading such great reviews of it, though, and was just blown away. The decision came down to head vs. heart -- and heart won. I ordered an A4 1.8T three weeks ago and don't even care that I'll have to borrow a vehicle to haul big plants or pay for their delivery. If you can work out the logistics re. taking the A4 in for maintenance/repairs, I recommend listening to your heart.
Mike-- both Karen (nitpicker) and Louie (schwitzer1) made very good points in their comments!
I too was worried about having to make recurring visits to the dealership from which I bought my car which is also about 100 miles away (but in my case, it was by my own choice that I chose that dealer rather than one that was just down the road from me--see my previous post) to have the infamous "laundry list" of things that have to be adjusted or fixed that is typical of a brand new car. I've had this list for every new car I've purchased except the Toyota 4Runner that I bought new years ago. The 4Runner never had to go back to the dealer for anything--it was perfect at the time of delivery and remained perfect for many years but from my experiences, this is surely not typical of brand new cars. All other new cars I've purchased had to go back and forth from the dealer many times after delivery to have things fixed or adjusted. So I was greatly worried about purchasing the Audi from a dealer 100 miles away (sure, you can have things fixed at any Audi dealer but for initial post-delivery defects, I wanted to return to the dealership from which I bought the car). When I voiced this concern to my sales rep, he laughed and assured me that an Audi will just not have a "laundry list" of problems that would have to be attended to after delivery. He actually scoffed at me for being worried and told me "that just doesn't happen much with new cars anymore, especially with an Audi!" He kept telling me that they have hardly anyone that has to return to have things fixed immediately after delivery and went on to explain the extensive pre-delivery inspection and preparation that the manufacturer require the dealership to perform. He bluntly stated: "there's going to nothing wrong with your car when you leave the dealership!!!" That was a bold statement and obviously I was skeptical for afterall he's a salesman! But I took the chance and purchased the car from him and lo-and-behold, so far he's right! The car was perfect at delivery and so far has stayed that way two months after--no "laundry list" (yet)! Sure, things could go wrong later but so far, I'm pretty impressed. The chances of getting a lemon with an Audi A4 seem to be getting smaller as the years go by (especially with a 2001.5 where they've had six years to work out all the "bugs"). IMO, the best chance of getting a lemon is to buy a domestic brand and the least chance is probably a Japanese brand with the European cars falling somewhere in the middle.
Now to further assuage your apprehension, we've forgot to discuss that Audi has "24-hour Roadside Assistance" for 4yr/50,000 miles which should relieve your concern about the towing issue. If it should have to be towed, it's covered for free to the nearest authorized Audi dealership or service facility. I just received my packet in the mail about a week ago which describes and outlines all services that Roadside Assistance encompasses. It's quite comprehensive and is similar to AAA coverage (well not just similar, it actually IS underwritten by AAA). So if you have any questions, let me know.
So Mike, go for it!!! (but act fast, you don't have too much more time to order a 2001.5!!)
Has anyone had problems with their windshield wipers? My new 2001 1.8T's wipers just seem to spread existing dirt around, plus the driver's side wiper pushes detergent and grime just enough to the side so that it accumulates into a line extending from top to bottom. What's the deal?
crud-- I haven't really noticed that problem (yet ...but now that you're mentioning it, I might pay closer attention) on my car and don't understand why an A4's wipers would be any different than any other car but one technique that I've tried with my other cars with excellent success is to clean the windshield thoroughly and then wipe both the glass and the wiper blade with isopropyl alcohol (rubbing alcohol 70%). As far as the grime accumulating on the left side of the windshield, it could be that it is more noticeable because the wiper's arc is adjusted so it is stopping too far away from the edge of the windshield. This was addressed at one time on the Audiworld forum and the solution was to have the service tech adjust the wiper arm so that it would swipe further left. Since the actual sweep of the arc is pre-set by the factory, the adjustment will result in the wiper arm being in a position that is slightly higher when in the *parked* setting when the wipers are turned off. I've done this on other cars by simply loosening the bolt on the wiper arm and moving it one notch and then tightening it back down.
Hi - This is my first post; thought I'd get some advice from you guys. The past 2 weekends I've test driven the A4 1.8T Quattro, BMW 330xi, Lexus IS300. I'm leaning towards the A4; it seemed to drive just about as well as the 3-series, is cheaper, and looks great. I also considered the Acura 3.2TL-S but it's too big for me. The only thing that's stopping me from going with the A4 is the rear legroom. Edmunds lists the A4's rear legroom as 33.4'', the 3-series' as 34.6'', and the IS300's as 30.2''. However, after I adjusted the driver's seat to my setting and got in the back, the IS300 seemed to have *more* legroom than the A4, even though Edmunds lists it as having much less. I also thought the 3-series had more legroom in the back. But it's the IS300's legroom that I don't understand. In the A4, I couldn't slide my feet under the front seat as easily as I could in the IS300. I raised the front seat and tried again but it still felt smaller than the IS300. Maybe the measurements weren't taken in a standardized way? I'm going to try out the A4 again to make sure, but my questions to you guys are:
(1) Do you think that the A4's rear legroom is significantly less than the competition's? And also overall comfort in the rear seat.
(2) The 2002 A4 is going to have more rear legroom; do you think that's worth waiting for? I want to enjoy the A4 this summer and don't want to wait til end of this year unless it's really worth it!
About rear legroom, numerous people have mentioned the same thing.....it feels smaller than other cars with similar external dimensions. The 2002 A4 should have very slightly more rear legroom (numbers on paper are bigger, but you already figured that out, numbers are useless). If I were you, I would think of styling (you need to see it and think if you like it, personally I like the 2001.5 model a lot more, you can go to www.audiworld.com to see the 2002 model), bug problems (although the drivetrain and engine should be the same for the 1.8T, 2002 V6 is not the same as the 2001 V6 obviously as it's bumped up to 3.0L with 222hp). If you had looked at BMW 330xi, with options it should cost the same as an Audi S4. You might want to test drive the S4 too....powerful biturbo puts out 250hp, yet still has Quattro, and it's standard. I was looking at the BMW 325ci b4 I bought the A4 and I was thinking to myself, with the options I want on both cars, is it worth the extra $5000 because of the name BMW and 50/50 split weight.....at that moment, I don't think so. At this moment, I still don't think so.
Comfort in the rear seat....well short trips will be alright for the rear passengers, but don't try to force them to come on a cross-country trip with you....anyhow the A4 to me is a great sports sedan so I wouldn't carry too many people in the car anyways.
I agree the 3.2TL-S is too big and too mature for me. I owned a Honda and I know the Acura is going to be more reliable, but it's time to experience a German masterpiece :>
Tired after driving for 5 hours in my A4....but satisfied :> It's 3am so I better go to sleep now.
Hi Raju-- first of all, I'll repost what I said in post #880:
"Yes, the A4's rear seat is notoriously cramped. It's the main issue why a lot of people pass on the A4. But since I'm fairly short (and if the front passenger is also short), the rear seat leg room isn't that bad. I've had people over 6' in the back and they were realatively comfortable but if the driver and front passenger are over 6', the rear seat leg room becomes non-existent. I can't comment on the child seat issue but there have been several discussions on it on this forum in the past...."
So with that said, yes, I believe that the leg room in the A4 is significantly less than it's competition but personally, I really don't have too much need for the rear seat so it wasn't that much of a consideration.
And no, the 2002 won't have significantly more leg room--somewhat more but not enough to base waiting for it solely for the purpose of leg room alone. If I can re-find a reference to the 2002's interior dimensions, I'll post it later.
Yes, if cost weren't a factor, I'd have probably purchased a 330xi but you've got to remember that it will be at least $10,000 more than for a similarly equipped A4 1.8t and about $5,000 more than an A4 2.8. Even the 325xi will be about $5,000 more than an A4 1.8t (see my post #847).
Now if you're thinking about an A4 2.8 then the price comparison gets to be a little less significant but all-in-all, I believe that the Audi is still a slightly better value than the BMW. You may be able to get a pretty good deal right now on a 2.8 because they are not as popular as the 1.8t and dealers could possibly have more of them sitting on their lots.
says that rear knee room will increase by 1.6 inches in the 2002 A4, as you said probably not enough of an increase to wait for, if we can trust the numbers. Definitely the 330xi and A4 1.8T isn't an apples to apples comparison. I told the guy I wanted to try an AWD 3-series and the guy said how about a 330xi and I said 'sure' . One more look at the A4 and I should be ready to decide.. thanks.
thanks for the tip. i don't know why the A4's wipers would be any different/worse than other sedans, but so far, they have been. the streak of accumulated grime and detergent on the far driver's side is very annoying, and i haven't seen it on other sedans that i've driven. moreover, the wipers just don't pick up a lot of dirt. not a big thing, but very annoying.
the other problem i've noticed is my standard stereo's bass output rattles the interior panels in my car to no end, even at fairly low volumes. now this i have experienced in lots of cars, but i thought audi would have been more careful in interior construction. Anybody else have this experience?
Hehe no prob Scirocco, the stuff that we posted really complemented each other's opinion :> Well the 5 hours were spent pretty much driving around in Chicagoland, from suburbs to downtown to suburbs to suburbs. Gas companies are going to like me.....especially they found out they can screw us Chicagoeans the most in gas prices.....dang it's $2.29/gal for 93 Octane in the suburbs now.
Crud_meridian: About the speakers, mmm so far the Bose bass hasn't been rattling the interior panels in mine.....and I thought the Bose should have a stronger bass.....yeah that can be annoying I can imagine. However, I noticed a slight rattling for no reason for about 5 seconds from time to time from an area that's left of the steering wheel. Who knows, it might be the speakers.....but it goes away by itself. I guess check with your service department and see if there're other people complaining about the same problem, and if so, what did they do to fix it.....however I know these things are really hard to troubleshoot.
rj123: Well I'm not surprised to see the dealer pulled out a 330xi for you to test drive. He wants you to think it's more powerful than the comparison. Sure enough it's more powerful than an A4 1.8T, but as we mentioned before, the price tag is ridiculously high and I'm sure you are aware of that. For better price comparison, go back to your BMW dealership, ask the guy for a 325ci or 325i if he doesn't have a 325xi, and try it out. I would expect the 325xi to be slightly slower than the 325i or 325ci since it needs to drive 4 wheels instead of 2. I test drove the 325ci before buying the A4 1.8T.....on paper the 325ci has 184hp, vs 170hp on the A4 1.8T, but man I found the turbo on the A4 much more fun to drive. The full torque on the 1.8T comes on all the way from 1850rpm to 5000rpm, where in the BMW, it might have more torque at high rpms at like 5000rpm, but you don't get all that before 5000rpm. The BMW will eventually go faster on straight roads, but on windy roads.....watch out for the Quattro equipped A4 1.8T's. Plus, there were rumors and I have heard enough proof to believe that the A4 1.8T engine actually has 180hp instead of 170hp. Reasons:
1. Audi does not want to get those TT 180hp owners think they have the same power as an A4. 2. Taxes that car manufacturers pay to the government depends on engine displacement and power output. Lower numbers mean lower taxes.
It's interesting though, since the Model Year 2001.5 VW Passat has the same engine and actually the same rumored 180hp engine. Of course the VW bumper-to-bumper warranty is the worst you can get in the automobile industry nowadays, only 2yr-24k, although the 2yr-24k of free maintenance kinda complements it, but not enough.
Oh by the way, BMW has one LESS year of free maintenance included. Audi has 4yr-50k miles of that, and BMW only has 3yr-36k miles of that, although both manufacturers offer the same 4yr-50k miles of bumper-to-bumper warranty.
One weird thing that happened this past weekend: one night I started my car and the Bose stereo unit won't come on.....even the reddish orange lights on the head unit won't come on, and those lights should be on even the stereo is off. No stereo display on the computer system under the temperature gauge either. It was at night so I didn't bother to fix it, and next morning I diagnosed it and it got to be the stupid fuse (blown fuse at 2,900 miles??!!). I pulled open the fuse box cover on the left side of the panel, found the fuse for the stereo, and damn, it's NOT blown. However, the number of Amps specified on the fuse was upside down.....but it shouldn't be a problem. I was like, heck, I will pull it out, wipe the legs of the fuse, turn it back to the normal position, and plug it back in. Wah-lah, the stereo came back to life and no problems since then. Weird problem and diagnosis, but that's my solution. Hope that helps if it happens to you.
Comments
Here is the article I used...can't speak to accuracy though...
http://www.audiworld.com/forum/m/a4/msgs/154153.phtml
Now go back to what "mbnut1" mentioned about the ring groove. Piston rings, do in fact, develop a groove inside the cylinder. This groove is actually the step down from the original cylinder wall diameter to the "etched out" new cylinder wall diameter. Cars that are never pushed hard will be more prone to damage, once the groove is formed and the car is pushed really hard. This is because the inertia is forcing the rings against these high points at very high speeds.
So, you see...in order to give your car a "well rounded" break-in, you need to have that ring groove as high as you can get it. Therefore, you need to push the engine...just don't overdue it. Take it to redline and then immediately back off. Oh yeah...make sure your engine is at operating temperature, BEFORE you follow the above instructions
p.s. I got confirmation that my A4 order is filled, and that it should be about 2-3 months before I get it!!!!!
Oh by the way, when I meant "melt together", I meant wearing of the parts so they work coherently with each other.....I didn't mean the metals will actually bond together :> Sorry for the confusion.
Uh oh ebnk, it'll be the longest 2-3 months in your life :>
Drive on!!
It's going to be a very happy relationship, I think.
Louie
Of course, it doesn't help too much that where I work is less than a mile from the Indianapolis Motor Speedway, where time trials are under way. There's nothing like the whine of a racecar to take my mind off of teaching math...
Louie
Darn, I need to pick up groceries?
Darn, I need to go OUT for lunch?
Say YES to those questions from now on :>
Have fun, Louie!
Billy
I did both. Tried Autobytel (still waiting actually) and the nearest dealer that works with them is down in IL (I'm in Milwaukee). I went to AudiUSA and took a look to confirm local dealers within 90 miles of home and found about 6. I e-mailed directly to 3 of the 6 to inquire about availability and pricing of the A4 set up I'm hunting for. Still waiting on all of the above.
Any thoughts?
JB
Billy-- I made a mistake when I said that my salesman told me do disregard what the owners manual stated. I meant to say he "intimated" that fact. I agree, he'd be pretty stupid to come right out and say that although I'd be pretty surprised if the manufacturer could actually prove, after many miles have been "racked-up" that some defect was due to disregard of the proper break-in rules.
Louie-- congratulations! 14 miles! yay! Mine had 24 miles with 14 miles on the trip odometer. What's up with that??? It was just like a factory order for I had locked up the purchase before it had arrived in dealer stock. Were the ten miles put on before arrival at the dealership?--or were they put on at the dealership; possibly by someone taking the car out for a test drive (and possibly revving it over 3,000 rpm ...lol!). I'd have to imagine that the trip odometer was reset to zero by the prep guy and he put on the additional 14 miles from the factory 10 but 14 miles seems like too many for prep purposes. The sales rep assured me at the time I put my deposit down that nobody would be taking it out on a test drive. I really didn't question it at the time of delivery because there were just to many things to go over during the orientation/delivery process. Oh well, I guess I'll just have to live with it now. Did I remember you saying that you opted out of Quattro? I thought I remember you saying that you ordered it with fwd and sport. and hey, are you looking forward to that NSX someday as much as I am? ;-) lol.
Derek-- Thanx for the article on break-in. Interesting reading... I missed that one over at AW.
Jeff-- I too started out by emailing. I found that dealers really don't like to quote prices on email because it just gives ammunition to the prospective buyer to go to another dealer and negotiate. Go to the forums in the "Smart Shopper" section of TownHall--there's some pretty interesting forums over there. I ended up doing all my information gathering and negotiating over the phone but by still pitting one dealer against the other. They know the game so I didn't really gain too much other than frustration. A friend of mine used Priceline.com where they get bids from the dealers for you after you give them a price that you are willing to pay for the car configured the way you want it. I would have tried that service had I known about it. http://auto.priceline.com/autos/infoctr/help/FastNEasy.asp?session_key=230011AC240011AC200105082003289a7a70421634
http://auto.priceline.com/autos/spec/newcars.asp
I hope it's alright to site outside sources like this. If not, I guess this post will be deleted anyway. My intent is not to advertise this service but only to use it as another method for I have never used priceline. Pat??
Mine had 16 miles when I took delivery, so I assumed that no one took the car out for a test drive except me (hopefully) :>
Just came back from a close call.....stupid car slowed down suddenly and turned right into a parking lot.....I immediately downshifted into 3rd gear and gun it to 50mph and changed lane to the left in front of the GrandAm and cut right back to the right lane into my lane.....some sweat but actually proved how awesome Quattro is again.....I'm sensing these stock Goodyears are going to wear out pretty soon.....hehe I actually want them to wear soon so I can have an excuse to buy some performance tires, some 17" rims, and winter tires for the stock 15" rims.
Billy
P.S. Hey Scirocco, what's your first name? Is that your screen name or first name?
You mean you couldn't have done the same maneuver without Quattro??? lol. Maybe the guy in the GrandAm was wondering "why is that stupid Audi following me so closely?" No, just kidding. ;-)
Scirocco is my nickname. My buddies started calling me that years ago when they realized how much I was enamored with my VW--dang, I loved that car! Now days they usually just call me "rocco" although it's nowhere near what my real name first name is. Perhaps I'll reveal that at a later time when I'm sure that my identity with the car salesmen I've delt with while negotiating the purchase of my A4 have possibly forgotten whom I might be... lol. I know that one in particular and possibly others read these boards and if they haven't already figured out who I am, I might as well keep them in the dark for awhile.
Ok, I think I'm going to go over the "Maintenance and Repair" board and read the "self oil change" thread ...um, no, maybe not--maybe I just better get to bed.
p.s.-- on a previous post, after re-reading what I wrote, I noticed that I made the mistake of using "to" instead of "too." I don't know if that was the result of the spell-checker or what, but I also don't want to appear to be totally uneducated on top of being an idiot. lol
I still look forward to getting into it every morning on my ride to work, and can't wait to leave work to drive it home. I also find all kinds of excuses to drive everywhere. I owned a Prelude for 11 years before the Audi, and thought nothing can replace that car in the fun factor category, but boy was I wrong.
In fact, I had many more problems with my Prelude from day 1, including having to replace the entire air conditioning system, which never worked right, and lots of other stuff. I have owned a few Toyotas as well, and have had more problems with them than I have had with the Audi. The Audi has never left my stranded, nor has it ever not started. I find it extremely reliable, and am grappling about whether to get an extended warranty or not.
I am also grappling about possibly selling this model for the new A4 coming out in the fall. I would give it a year to get out any glitches it may have before I decide what to do.
I am totally sold on the A4. I think it's the perfect sports sedan, without having the stigma that the BMW has in my eyes. Except for the BMW, there is no other car (except maybe the Volvo S60 with AWD), that would get my money or attention.
You guys made a great choice. My husband and I also own an Acura TL and love that as well, but both agree that the A4 is head and shoulders above the TL, except for the acceleration, which should be corrected with the new model.
Good luck with your car. You will love it more every day. It still amazes me how intuitive everything in the car is, and how comfortable the ride is. Have fun driving!
It's interesting to hear that your Prelude gave you more problems. I had a 96 Accord before the A4 and it's problem free for 120,000 miles except a defective driver's window motor and an over-reactive power door lock. I actually had extended warranty on the Accord till 100,000 miles and I think the $$ I paid for that was actually MORE than the $$ it took to fix those 2 glitches..... :<
I'm thinking maybe not that many car manufacturers had perfected the "art" of car making about 12.5 years ago.....I guess the same can say for American cars nowadays but still.....my girlfriend's Civic had been running great for the last 4 years and really qualifies as problem-free. I just *hope* the A4 can do the same thing cuz fixing German cars without warranty is EXPENSIVE.....I might do the same thing eventually, to purchase an extended warranty.....is there a deadline, like I need to buy it within a certain amount of time within the purchase of the car?
Yeah Scirocco, why don't you let us know what you found in the Self Oil Change section.....I read on audiworld that Audi charges $80 for an oil change.....OMG. Even if they put synthetic oil into the car, there's NO way it costs $80 for an oil change. It's time to crawl under the car and do it myself :>
Billy
As for maintaining, heck I'd be paying $90/hr at the dodge dealership the way it is and they rake you over the coals for parts, it's unbelievable. I may just be guessing, but I doubt Audi dealership charges much more per hour for labor, though parts may still be considerably more.
By the way, now going on 36 hrs. and still no response from any dealers on quotes. Looks like no avoiding the "leg work."
Last thing, will Audi be delivering one last shipment of 2001.5 A4's to dealerships, or are we down to "what you see is what you get." I'm guessing it may depend on the dealership, but curious if there's a hard and fast answer.
JB
For all those people who can't imagine getting an Audi without Quattro? I guess I'm just comfortable with liking what I like...
Well I think you need to do what scirocco did....calling the dealers and let them fight over the phone rather than just fax or email. I dunno how many of those they got each day but faxes and emails might not be taken as serious as phone calls.
Audi is not letting dealers to put in fresh order, as far as I heard. Dealers can still change options on existing orders, so if you do it fast they might be able to change one or dealer trade the cars.
Good luck!
It's disappointing, really. They "talk-up" the internet as a great way to open up lines of communication with multiple dealers...saves time....cut to the chase...etc, etc. Looks like I was just dreaming that it would actually be true.
JB (cryin' in his beer)
I didn't try email or fax or even the phone.....here in Chicagoland we have about 8 dealers within 30 miles so I just went to a few of them, got a deal of a little less than 3% over invoice, and stopped visiting other dealers cuz the A4 was calling my name :> You better act fast.....someone over in audiworld said some dealers have actually stopped taking orders for 2001.5 A4's and you can only change options on dealer stock orders.
And, stop sitting on the couch sipping beer....go out and drive to your Audi dealerships!!
Billy
God, I'm waffling aren't I??? LOL
JB
I used MSN's Carpoint both when I tried to buy a Jetta and when I started shopping for my A4. Carpoint assures yout that the specified dealer will contact you by e-mail within 24 hours which I found to be the case but they didn't quote a price but rather just requested that you call them for a quote. I also found that you can negotiate a price quite a bit below the Carpoint quote so using the service to your advantage would seem to be moot.
Did you look at the Priceline.com site? If you did, what were your opinions of their technique?
Anyway, before buying this car, I made a promise to myself not to go into a dealership in person and go through the negotiating process on their territory. That's what I find so stressful and most frustrating... when they get you into that little room and do the running back-and-forth to the manager routine. So this time I vowed to do all my fact gathering and negotiating by e-mail and phone. It wasn't a really thought out plan but essentially all I did was get a quote from one dealer and then call the other dealer to see if they could beat it. This went back and forth several times until neither dealer would respond back in which case I had to assume that it was the lowest price point either could go. At that point, I then had to make a choice. Obviously my timing was a bit off (as well as the dealer's) because the dealer from whom I really wanted to buy the car was one day late in their counter-offer for I had already bought the car one day earlier. At-any-rate, the process was much better than being in that pressure cooker little room in the dealer's showroom--believe me, I'll NEVER buy a car that way again!
My feeling is I would pay a little more for no hassles. It's worth it in the long run.
It's funny though, when we were there, there was an A4 coming in on a flat-bed tow truck. Of course it's not a welcoming sight, and the sales manager made us feel good by giving the owner an A6 2.7T loaner....Dang we're like, wow, let's hope our car goes out of commission and tow it here so we can get THAT as a loaner :>
I guess I will bring my car there for my 5k service when it comes up. If the sales manager can really do something by giving me a loaner even I didn't buy from there, I will go there for all my future services.....otherwise I guess I will make the 25 mile trip up to my dealer.....
Billy
JB
Turnaround time.....I have no clue, as mine has only 2,700 miles on it and man I'd be really pissed if I need to bring it in b4 the 5k service.....but I did notice the passenger's side vent is loose.....1 or 2 of the fins would not move with the rest.....minor things.
However I heard things like a lonnnnnng wait for scheduling appointments. Dunno if the Audi dealers are taking the time to fix/service the cars, or maybe Audi's screw up more than AoA thought (touch wood).
Billy
So yes, maybe it has to be taken into consideration when shopping dealers as to how important a free loaner is to you for just the routine stuff. Do you really need a loaner for just an oil change? For me, after contemplating it for awhile, it didn't seem to matter that much especially when I knew I could reserve a rental car, if I really had to have it, for a small fee.
Loaners are often A6 2.8's, once I got an S4 (although it had an automatic). When they run out of Audis, they use Neons -- the cars always have AC and they do require you to bring them back with at least as much gas in them as when you were "loaned" them.
They do not permit smoking in the Audi loaners -- even the key chains have a "this is a non smoking car" on them. Since I don't smoke this is not a problem for me, my guess is they have a fumigation charge if you smoke in one of them.
In any case, this policy started in 1988 (when the Audi Advantage Started) and continues to this day. The cars are otherwise free of charge and generally free of hassle.
Good luck.
Lord knows I don't get anywhere NEAR that kind of consideration when the ol' pick-up goes in. LOL
I've just got my fingers crossed that the "loaner" won't be needed at ALL if I end up with an A4. I'll have to do my "no-lemons for JB" dance before I seal any deals.
OH....one last thing I've REALLY been wondering. When you all went on test drives, did the salesman go with you? The one drive I had in an A4 included the salesman....claimed he had to for insurance reasons. I hate it. My wife and I never felt comfortable talking openly while we were driving. I may plead my case should this happen again. Just wondering what others encountered and if there is any real "policy" on the issue or if it's just dealer to dealer. The one Audi dealer visited was the ONLY dealer of ANY make that did this to us.
JB
Well bast2, the few times that I went for test driving the A4, yes the dealers came with me, giving reasons like insurance and such. I got a few "wicked" ideas to kick them out:
1. Bring 4 other people along. Now the dealer can't really say, OK, 1 of you can't go cuz I need to go....right? I haven't tried that one cuz people hate me (LOL, just kidding).
2. Test drive a more expensive model, let the dealer come along, drive around for like 45 minutes (the idea here is to put the dealer to sleep and let him see how safe you drive and how troublesome you are cuz you keep him away for so long he might lose some of the other potential customers at the dealership). Then drive back and ask for the model/options you want and then do another test drive. Kindly tell him/her, you are a VERY careful person and a very serious buyer, and you want to spend extra time in your *potential* future car. Tell him because of hte same reason, you will drive it very carefully and in a safe way. I tried that once in a BMW dealership and it worked.
3. Tell them you need to FEEL the car with ONLY you in the car. Tell them it won't be long.
Dang I hope my dealer won't be reading this, LOL.
Billy
'98.5 A4Q w/sport
'01 allroad
At the VW dealership the salesman took us for a 2 min. spin to explain Tiptronic, since neither of us had used it before. Then he flipped us the keys and said have a good time. We drove all over the area: country roads, highway, city driving. We switched and did it all over. We stopped got out in a parking lot and gave it a great "once over," checking out the trunk, room in the back seat, engine, did a couple of slow "walk arounds." It was great, I really walked away a fan of the Passat from that test drive (even though the salesman was a complete putz, didn't know ANYTHING specific about the car.)
I'm dying to give the A4 the same attention and get a true feel for it. We'll see what happens this weekend.
JB
Of course also depends on the location of the dealership.....suburb dealerships are more accomodating than the city dealerships, which is understandable.
Billy
1. Have you ever driven a BMW? A Stick Shift?
If no -- and you do not look like a dead beat -- they will take you on a short drive to familiarize you with the vehicle. The BMW salesperson actually drove the car on a very twisty road to demonstrate the "goes like it's on rails" claim.
If yes -- and you do not look like a dead beat -- they will give you the keys and generally say "take it on the streets AND freeways."
2. Have you driven an "S" or "E" or "C" Class Mercedes? Well, you know that this model takes 2 and a half hours to deliver -- and I usually spend half that time on the guidance package and safety features alone.
If no -- I'll go with you to familiarize you with the features of the car -- then you can take it out, if you want.
3. Do you know anything about Audis?
If yes, here are the keys -- if you want to drive a specific car, off the lot, I'll go with you to the gas station and put some gas in it, then you can drive it.
If no, let me go over the car very briefly -- here is one on the showroom floor (the discussion always includes the stick versus Tiptronic questions) -- if you do not have any manual tranny experiecne, they will ALWAYS insist that they go with you if you are test driving a stick car.
The Audi and BMW dealers seem most like they want to give you some space, after they are convinced that you know what you are doing -- they even, sometimes, make sure you are "OK" with the audio system, since -- especially on the Bimmers -- there are subwoofer buttons and equalizers that they want you to "appreciate."
The Audi dealers seem to love it when you test drive there cars during the week and on rainy or snowy days (wonder why)?
I drove the BMW AWD car -- very nice, overpriced compared to the Audi. The 330ix costs more than an S4 (optioned out, that is). And, although the BMW actually has a back seat, the difference in the size of the car does not justify, by any stretch, the price.
The 2002 A4 3.0 quattro with sport, appears to be (to me at least) a car that should "concern" BMW salespeople trying to sell a 330ix versus an A4 3.0 quattro (2002) -- but then again, BMW will undoubtedly respond to the competition and up the ante again.
At this point, IMO, I can't figure out the attraction of the Mercedes -- it seems like an Old Persons Car (at least at these price points). Kinda like when I was much younger and looked at Caddys -- that's the way I felt driving a Mercedes (although less so the E and C class than the S class). And, no, I am not comparing an S class Merc to either an A4 or 330 -- more like an A8 or 7 Series -- but the Merc just feels like my memory of my Uncle's Caddy.
But, as usual, I digress.
Here is my motto -- I will NOT buy a car from a dealer who "for insurance reasons" won't let me take the car out alone or with my wife or my friend. If they insist in riding with me, I just don't go back.
Mark: I'm with ya on the test drive theory. I think I NEED to drive without the salesperson. I'll be making a point to press the issue. And if they refuse....
Okay, starting to get pumped up. Now I've just got to get my wife pumped up enough to get in the car and come along. She hates this crap, but it'll be her car....a motivational factor.
JB
When I took the Audi out for a spin, the salesguy chose the windiest road (a residential road with a 30mph speed limit ONLY) and told me to floor it, hold it at 2nd or 3rd gear, and just go. Heck I was like, are you going to pay for my speeding ticket.....anyhow I can definitely feel the difference between an Audi w/Quattro and a BMW RWD. It's fun to watch cars oversteer on the TV, and it might be fun to do it on the track, but I don't like it on my way to work, no thanks.
Well bast2, I took my girlfriend for one of the test drives, and she won't go with me after the 2nd time. Why? Cuz the first test drive, we visited the BMW dealership and I asked for a 325ci 5-spd. They don't have one in stock, and I thought it's just a nasty excuse not to let me drive it, BUT instead they said they have a 325ci CONVERTIBLE.....my eyes lighted up and they lighted up even more when he handed me the keys and told us to enjoy it. It's January in Chicago and a "heat" wave brought the temp into the 40's and sure enough, we took the top down and everybody thought we're nuts. Then we went to an Audi dealership and I liked the Quattro so much, I tried pretty hard to get it to understeer. Girlfriend then complained about nausea and that pretty much ended it :> Sorry honey, but I want to see if the Quattro option is worth it, and it definitely worths it.
Hehe so don't tell your wife you're gonna do that before the drive :>
Billy
Hopefully u guys may have some insightful advice..
should i trust audi not to be worried about a lemon?
The distance is your call.
I too was worried about having to make recurring visits to the dealership from which I bought my car which is also about 100 miles away (but in my case, it was by my own choice that I chose that dealer rather than one that was just down the road from me--see my previous post) to have the infamous "laundry list" of things that have to be adjusted or fixed that is typical of a brand new car. I've had this list for every new car I've purchased except the Toyota 4Runner that I bought new years ago. The 4Runner never had to go back to the dealer for anything--it was perfect at the time of delivery and remained perfect for many years but from my experiences, this is surely not typical of brand new cars. All other new cars I've purchased had to go back and forth from the dealer many times after delivery to have things fixed or adjusted. So I was greatly worried about purchasing the Audi from a dealer 100 miles away (sure, you can have things fixed at any Audi dealer but for initial post-delivery defects, I wanted to return to the dealership from which I bought the car). When I voiced this concern to my sales rep, he laughed and assured me that an Audi will just not have a "laundry list" of problems that would have to be attended to after delivery. He actually scoffed at me for being worried and told me "that just doesn't happen much with new cars anymore, especially with an Audi!" He kept telling me that they have hardly anyone that has to return to have things fixed immediately after delivery and went on to explain the extensive pre-delivery inspection and preparation that the manufacturer require the dealership to perform. He bluntly stated: "there's going to nothing wrong with your car when you leave the dealership!!!" That was a bold statement and obviously I was skeptical for afterall he's a salesman! But I took the chance and purchased the car from him and lo-and-behold, so far he's right! The car was perfect at delivery and so far has stayed that way two months after--no "laundry list" (yet)! Sure, things could go wrong later but so far, I'm pretty impressed. The chances of getting a lemon with an Audi A4 seem to be getting smaller as the years go by (especially with a 2001.5 where they've had six years to work out all the "bugs"). IMO, the best chance of getting a lemon is to buy a domestic brand and the least chance is probably a Japanese brand with the European cars falling somewhere in the middle.
Now to further assuage your apprehension, we've forgot to discuss that Audi has "24-hour Roadside Assistance" for 4yr/50,000 miles which should relieve your concern about the towing issue. If it should have to be towed, it's covered for free to the nearest authorized Audi dealership or service facility. I just received my packet in the mail about a week ago which describes and outlines all services that Roadside Assistance encompasses. It's quite comprehensive and is similar to AAA coverage (well not just similar, it actually IS underwritten by AAA). So if you have any questions, let me know.
So Mike, go for it!!! (but act fast, you don't have too much more time to order a 2001.5!!)
(1) Do you think that the A4's rear legroom is significantly less than the competition's? And also overall comfort in the rear seat.
(2) The 2002 A4 is going to have more rear legroom; do you think that's worth waiting for? I want to enjoy the A4 this summer and don't want to wait til end of this year unless it's really worth it!
Thanks.
Comfort in the rear seat....well short trips will be alright for the rear passengers, but don't try to force them to come on a cross-country trip with you....anyhow the A4 to me is a great sports sedan so I wouldn't carry too many people in the car anyways.
I agree the 3.2TL-S is too big and too mature for me. I owned a Honda and I know the Acura is going to be more reliable, but it's time to experience a German masterpiece :>
Tired after driving for 5 hours in my A4....but satisfied :> It's 3am so I better go to sleep now.
Billy
"Yes, the A4's rear seat is notoriously cramped. It's the main issue why a lot of people pass on the A4. But since I'm fairly short (and if the front passenger is also short), the rear seat leg room isn't that bad. I've had people over 6' in the back and they were realatively comfortable but if the driver and front passenger are over 6', the rear seat leg room becomes non-existent. I can't comment on the child seat issue but there have been several discussions on it on this forum in the past...."
So with that said, yes, I believe that the leg room in the A4 is significantly less than it's competition but personally, I really don't have too much need for the rear seat so it wasn't that much of a consideration.
And no, the 2002 won't have significantly more leg room--somewhat more but not enough to base waiting for it solely for the purpose of leg room alone. If I can re-find a reference to the 2002's interior dimensions, I'll post it later.
Yes, if cost weren't a factor, I'd have probably purchased a 330xi but you've got to remember that it will be at least $10,000 more than for a similarly equipped A4 1.8t and about $5,000 more than an A4 2.8. Even the 325xi will be about $5,000 more than an A4 1.8t (see my post #847).
Now if you're thinking about an A4 2.8 then the price comparison gets to be a little less significant but all-in-all, I believe that the Audi is still a slightly better value than the BMW. You may be able to get a pretty good deal right now on a 2.8 because they are not as popular as the 1.8t and dealers could possibly have more of them sitting on their lots.
Good luck and let us know what you decide.
http://www.audiworld.com/news/00/newa4/
says that rear knee room will increase by 1.6 inches in the 2002 A4, as you said probably not enough of an increase to wait for, if we can trust the numbers. Definitely the 330xi and A4 1.8T isn't an apples to apples comparison. I told the guy I wanted to try an AWD 3-series and the guy said how about a 330xi and I said 'sure'
the other problem i've noticed is my standard stereo's bass output rattles the interior panels in my car to no end, even at fairly low volumes. now this i have experienced in lots of cars, but i thought audi would have been more careful in interior construction. Anybody else have this experience?
that said, i still LOVE my new audi!!!!!!!
Crud_meridian: About the speakers, mmm so far the Bose bass hasn't been rattling the interior panels in mine.....and I thought the Bose should have a stronger bass.....yeah that can be annoying I can imagine. However, I noticed a slight rattling for no reason for about 5 seconds from time to time from an area that's left of the steering wheel. Who knows, it might be the speakers.....but it goes away by itself. I guess check with your service department and see if there're other people complaining about the same problem, and if so, what did they do to fix it.....however I know these things are really hard to troubleshoot.
rj123: Well I'm not surprised to see the dealer pulled out a 330xi for you to test drive. He wants you to think it's more powerful than the comparison. Sure enough it's more powerful than an A4 1.8T, but as we mentioned before, the price tag is ridiculously high and I'm sure you are aware of that. For better price comparison, go back to your BMW dealership, ask the guy for a 325ci or 325i if he doesn't have a 325xi, and try it out. I would expect the 325xi to be slightly slower than the 325i or 325ci since it needs to drive 4 wheels instead of 2. I test drove the 325ci before buying the A4 1.8T.....on paper the 325ci has 184hp, vs 170hp on the A4 1.8T, but man I found the turbo on the A4 much more fun to drive. The full torque on the 1.8T comes on all the way from 1850rpm to 5000rpm, where in the BMW, it might have more torque at high rpms at like 5000rpm, but you don't get all that before 5000rpm. The BMW will eventually go faster on straight roads, but on windy roads.....watch out for the Quattro equipped A4 1.8T's. Plus, there were rumors and I have heard enough proof to believe that the A4 1.8T engine actually has 180hp instead of 170hp. Reasons:
1. Audi does not want to get those TT 180hp owners think they have the same power as an A4.
2. Taxes that car manufacturers pay to the government depends on engine displacement and power output. Lower numbers mean lower taxes.
It's interesting though, since the Model Year 2001.5 VW Passat has the same engine and actually the same rumored 180hp engine. Of course the VW bumper-to-bumper warranty is the worst you can get in the automobile industry nowadays, only 2yr-24k, although the 2yr-24k of free maintenance kinda complements it, but not enough.
Oh by the way, BMW has one LESS year of free maintenance included. Audi has 4yr-50k miles of that, and BMW only has 3yr-36k miles of that, although both manufacturers offer the same 4yr-50k miles of bumper-to-bumper warranty.
One weird thing that happened this past weekend: one night I started my car and the Bose stereo unit won't come on.....even the reddish orange lights on the head unit won't come on, and those lights should be on even the stereo is off. No stereo display on the computer system under the temperature gauge either. It was at night so I didn't bother to fix it, and next morning I diagnosed it and it got to be the stupid fuse (blown fuse at 2,900 miles??!!). I pulled open the fuse box cover on the left side of the panel, found the fuse for the stereo, and damn, it's NOT blown. However, the number of Amps specified on the fuse was upside down.....but it shouldn't be a problem. I was like, heck, I will pull it out, wipe the legs of the fuse, turn it back to the normal position, and plug it back in. Wah-lah, the stereo came back to life and no problems since then. Weird problem and diagnosis, but that's my solution. Hope that helps if it happens to you.
Billy