Honda Civic vs. Hyundai Elantra

isellhondas · April 2000

That will be less trouble than a Honda?

A Neon?

montequi · April 2000

I leased a Civic hatchback for 2 years before buying an Elantra. First of all, the Civic was by far the slowest car I've ever driven. The 1.6L engine was pitiful. Also, on the 2 occasions when I locked up my brakes, the back-end fishtailed wildly. As for the Elantra, I've been extremely happy with the 2L 140HP engine, and the handling is superb (no fishtailing, and I don't have ABS). The Elantra's handling is actually closer to the Prelude SI, which I also used to own, than the Civic. I own an Elantra 5-speed, and I find it to be more of a sports sedan than a normal economy car like the Civic. To match the horsepower of the Elantra with the Civic you have to upgrade to an SI engine, which makes it much more expensive. Also, the Civic doesn't come in a Wagon. Maybe we should be comparing the Elantra to the Accord!

isell_mitsus1 · April 2000

LOL isellhondas!!! Good point. When people complain about their Hondas I always want to know what car they are going to buy that they THINK will be better than a Honda.

montequi: Whatever. I had a 98 Civic EX with a manual and handily tromped upon a Hyundai Elantra even with the Elantra's Folgers can exhaust and purple racing stripe. Granted the EX has more power than the DX you had.

And comparing the Elantra to an Accord???? WHATEVER!! The 4 cylinder Accord outperforms the V6 Sonata so I don't think the Elantra wants to even think about being compared to the Accord.

And I really don't think the Elantra handles as well as any later model Prelude. What year Prelude are you comparing it to? A 1985????

sjoo · April 2000

Hey Guys, Check the 2001 elantra

See the

http://www.hmc.co.kr/kor/cybermall/product/avantexd/index.htm

'AvanteXD' is Korean domestic name.

Sorry, It's Korean website.

kevinjmoore · May 2000

The Honda Civic is a fine car except for a few things. The hp is way overrated. For 127hp, the car did not move unless you revved the VTEC up to 4-5,000 rpm. 5th gear had no get up at all and it ran out of 4th gear too quick. The car blew around on the highway a bit too much, was very noisy inside at high speeds and the steering was somewhat "loose". I never had a problem with anything mechanically. There was no excess cost above scheduled maintenance. But, for the price Elantra is miles better. Acceleration, handling, noise reduction, etc. is better in the Elantra. The option "overload" is awesome and who can beat the price. Given the warranty, roadside assistance and overall better car except for a few cosmetic items, ELANTRA gets my bid hands down.

dryfus · May 2000

I also own a 1999 Honda Civic EX in Canada. In Canada, EX's come only with 106HP. I have to agree with you, it really lacks punch. It's slow as a slug. Airconditioning is also very weak. I don't like to turn on my A/C in summers because it just drains up even more power in an already sadly underpowered car. Climbing up hills is also a struggle, and with A/C on, forget it. I've also driven Civic SI, and I have to say it's not much better with 127hp engine. And you're right, Civics get blown around in highways when there's a strong crosswind.

I've never driven a Hyundai Elantra before, but hearing from other Hyundai drivers, it certainly should be better than a Civic in terms of power.

I really can't understand why Civics are so much raved. It's really an unremarkable underpowered car with dull looks and dull interior with a terrible stereo system. I guess what it has is good reliability history and good resale value, and a overhyped reputation going for it

isellhondas · May 2000

Speaking as an owner and not a Honda salesperson...

Our 98 civic EX Coupe is as fast as anyone in their right mind would want it to be and it's an automatic! The A/C effects it not one bit.

My 325i BMW will whip it, but so what?

I've had the Civic up to 110 MPH without strain.

The car is what it is. A bulletproof reliable car
That handles and drives very well.

A Hyundai is a Korean car with a bad reputation and horrible resale value.

Improved? Perhaps...time will tell!

dryfus · May 2000

Ex's in Canada come only in 106hp range. It's not even a Vtech. You Americans get the better bargains, as always it seems. Ex's in Canada used to get the V-Tech 127hp, but they were lowered while the prices stayed the same. At least three years ago that is. It's almost like Honda is increasing the price drastically but try to make it look like they're not really, by decreasing all the important options. Very deceptive in my opinion.

As for speed, the Civic seems to handle fine at high cruising, except for strong cross wind situations where the car get blown here and there. But the problem is when it's accelerating. My automatic is really a slug. It can't even beat a van at the stop light.

As for the A/C, it takes at least 10 minutes before it blows decent cold air. Then you gotta turn the knob all the way down to 4 level before it's cool. But if you do that, yikes. Turn on the A/C full power, have 4 passengers in the car, and try to climb up a hill or try to merge on the highway.

The car literally pants and gives out this wwwaaaaaaaaaa.. sound. Then you gotta push the gas pedal all the way down.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not complaining. After all, it's just a small sub-compact car. Most sub-compacts lack power. But what I'm saying is with that kind of money needed to buy something like a Civic, why not get something bigger with the same money, is my point.

boltguy · May 2000

Isell says "Our 98 civic EX Coupe is as fast as anyone in
their right mind would want it to be and it's an
automatic! The A/C effects it not one bit."

I have driven a friends 1998 Civic EX sedan quite a few times, and I can tell you (if it's anything like the coupe's) the acceleration is not nearly as good as it's being reported. My 2000 Tiburon with the identical engine as an Elantra, has 140 HP and blows the Civic away in acceleration VTEC or not. The Elantra's 0-60 figures are actually a little better than a Tiburon's too. The only advantage, in my opinion, is the Civic's engine is a little better mileage figures and a little quieter when accelerating rapidly.

I'm sure even Isell will agree with me on this one. Go test drive both vehicles. Don't listen to conservative propaganda. Tell us what you think about engine strength, value and warranty. Consider resale value too. But if your planning on keeping a car 5 years or longer, the resale value is less important.

ygmin · May 2000

Both are equipped with manual transmissions. Car and Driver compared 13 compact cars, and the Elantra was at or near the top in every category that measures performance.

elantra00 · May 2000

First of all, A/C affects all cars. it doesnt matter if its a chevy metro or mercedes S 600. it will affect performance regardless because it puts a power strain on the engine. also, hyundai elantra is a MUCH better deal. first off, for thousands less you get a 10yr warranty, 13 more hp. power windows/locks/mirrors, cruise control, and 14" rims for $12,000. for this price, you can get a base line civic w/ 106 hp, power nothing, and no air conditioning. how can you go wrong. yea, hyundai was [non-permissible content removed] back in the 1980's but like us humans, things can change, such as they did. they exceeded mazda putting them as the #5 asian auto maker. [non-permissible content removed]? i dont think so

isellhondas · May 2000

I didn't do any name calling...O.K. ?

I'm not real sure what a Tiburon is but I think it compares more to an Accord than a Civic doesn't it?

And...of course, air conditioning does affect performance a little bit, but not like in the old days when we used the huge compressors.

Boltguy, I guess we have different perceptions of what is more than enough power.

Out Civic is, in my opinion, more than sufficient. How fast do you want to go? Our Accord is faster, and the BMW faster yet.

I was only arguing against the comment that Civics were underpowered.

boltguy · May 2000

I understand that you sell Hondas, but I would at least hope that you were aware of other makes and models. That statement goes a long way in proving where you are coming from in any discussion about anything other than a Honda.

FYI, a Tiburon is a Hyundai. It's a sports coupe. It's competition is the Civic Si (ever heard of it?), Toyota Celica, Mitsubishi Eclipse, and the Pontiac Sunfire. The Tiburon and the Elantra share platforms and engines.

I find it humorous that you say the Civic's acceleration is "more than sufficient" yet you have opted for 2 other cars with substantially better acceleration.

Whatever our definitions of acceleration may be, the fact remains that the Elantra is quicker than any Civic, except for the 160 hp Si. There's really no use discussing this to someone with tunnel vision. You won't accept Hyundai until their sales figures are right up there with your beloved Honda.

Break those chains that bind you. You really don't have to pay 16,000 for a quality car. Free your mind, Isell, and your wallet will follow!

hello26 · May 2000

Hyundai may be on the level of Neon or Escort but of course you are free to blindly assert that it is on the level of Honda. Hey, why not Toyota.
Hyundai = Corolla. Why not? I suppose Hyundai's midsize car is as good as a Camry. Hyundai has done zip to distinguish itself in engineering or car production unless you count the fact that they are no longer total lemons. Hyundai has gone where no Yugo has gone before (but it owns KIA which is the worst car being sold in America).

We know it is not KIA because KIA is the one with the **** **** of NHTSA complaints, we see no evidence that it does anything as well as Honda, Insight, ULEV, anything, and we're supposed to think it can make an equivalent car and sell it for thousands less? I guess that's it. Hyundai is an honest company and Honda is not. My Hyundai friends, people, no.

isellhondas · May 2000

I'm not the only one in the industry that doesn't have a glowing opinion of Hyundai...sorry!

And...yes, I do know what an SI is, I sell them, and there is one sitting in our garage that belongs to our 21 year old son.

Maybe if I saw more Tiburons on the road, I would know what one is.

And...just because I have two faster cars, I STILL think the EX Civic's power is sufficient for what it is. Again, my opinion.

I'm glad you enjoy your Hyundai. They have come a long way. If resale values improve, and the cars continue to improve, my opinion of them could well change. Until that happens, I still think there are better choices out there. Initial price isn't everything!

dryfus · May 2000

106 HP is not enough power, especially when there are other cars with more power with cheaper prices. Sorry, but that's the way it is. Hopefully, the new 2001 Honda Civics have better horse powers but DO NOT GET MORE EXPENSIVE. Hondas really should price their cars competitively and should offer more standard features for the money.
Oh wait, but as long as there are so many stooges like us who will pay anything to get a Honda name plate, Honda doesn't have to do anything but to jack up the prices to anything they want, any time.

As for Hyundai owning KIA, the worst cars in America, it was only a year since Hyundai took over Kia. It takes time to turn a company around.

dpethick · May 2000

I recently came to the US from Australia. In Australia the Excel was a market leader, and had a good reputation. This is a factor of the different driving conditions in Australia, where cars do not need to accelerate rapidly for on-ramps, and most commuting is done in city driving conditions at 35 mph or less.

Thus, there was no stigma attached to the Hyundia brand to cloud my judgement. In the US Hyundai does have a bad reputation. They are trying to buy back customer confidence with the extended warranty scheme. This is good for me.

The low selling price, excellent warranty and high "bang-for-buck" ratio made the Elantra a simple choice.

I did look at a wide range of competing cars including the Ford Focus and Escort ZX-3, Honda Civic, Dodge Neon and a few others. Nothing else really came close to providing what I wanted. If I could have gotten a '99 Neon (new) I might have considered it, but the '00 Neon is a bit sedate.

Resale is very hard to predict, but I will worry about that in 5 years time. Good luck selling your Honda for the expected price, as car technology will continue to improve over the coming years. I'm more than happy to buy an underpriced car with an improving reputation rather than an overpriced car with a declining reputation.

Dave P.

scape2 · May 2000

Check this out...
http://www.alldata.com/includes/honda_notice.html
Why is Honda refusing access to TSB/Recall information to Alldata?? Other manufactures seem to have no problem... Hmmm......

isellhondas · May 2000

I have no qnswer to your question. I do wonder why this is so important to you. You have put this same posting EVERYWHERE !

dryfus · May 2000

How do you know this, unless you've been everwhere yourself, cutting and pasting your same old
word document?

isellhondas · May 2000

I have yet to cut and paste ANYTHING is these forums.

And, I don't think my comment was directed to you anyway!

pks1 · June 2000

When buying our car we tested the civic lx and the elantra . The civic with a 1.6L 106hp was a very good car. It handeled well , accelerated very well (for its class) and it was a good buy for the price . The huyndai had the same features as the civic but it had a 2.0L 123? hp ( I cant recall the hp but its in the 120-130) . If you ever driven a elantra I think you noticed the NOICE IT MAKES WHEN CHANGING GEARS (manual). It makes a noice like there is no grease someware in the gerbox . And the car also felt heavy and to little hp for the car . Lets face it a Honda can make outstanding car , why do people drive their civics accords from the 88-9x with over 120k and the cars run like new ? Also a honda can make a 1.6L 106 hp engine hyundai can make a 2.0L (120-130hp dont remember) But I guess if a civic was a 2.0L like the elantra it would be well over 170hp for the base model and if they made an Si 2.0L it would have about 190hp . When was the last time you saw a hyundai have a 1.6L engine with such good hp?
Oh I am also plannig on buyina a 1991 Honda CRX then we can compare it to a Sonata. Also the reason Hyundai has a long warranty and cheap prices is because they know people don't like hyundais and they are trying to attract costumers because it hyundai would sell the elantra in the price of a civic many people would buy the civic because for the same price they would get a car that has a history of good costumer feedback.
happy driving

wsprintzer · June 2000

This is my second Sonata, the latest being a 1999 V6. I love it. My first Sonata was a 1993 with a 4 cylinder and it was fine, i just wanted a newer car. My daughter just bought her first car, an Elantra. I must admit, i was reluctant. I wanted to buy a Civic because of its reliable reputation but she test drove one and didn't like it as much as the Elantra. I hope it serves her well. As for Hyundai's problems with consumer confidence, Honda was in the same boat when they first entered the American market. They were awful. Maybe Hyundai will eventually have the same consumer loyalty someday as the Honda has now.

isellhondas · June 2000

Does a longer warranty mean it's a better car?

Isn't the best warranty the one that you don't have to use?

Just curious...

isellhondas · June 2000

Or, wasn't it Genes555 awhile back?

Get real. The ONLY reason Hyundai went to the longer warranty was to try to establish some consumer confidence in a company that had a reputation for building lackluster cars with poor reliability stats.

They HAD to do something! VW did the same thing for the same reason.

And, you PAY for that longer warranty in the price of the car, my friend.

It's marketing, pure and simple, and I think it was very smart of them to do this.

And, some people will probably buy a car on the basis of a longer warranty.

Again, the BEST warranty is the one that you don't have to use!

isellhondas · June 2000

Before I get jumped on...It's quite possible that Hyundai has greatly improved. Time will tell.

They have a LOT to overcome and I do applaud them for surviving when the last rites had already been said.

Let's just not confuse warranty with quality.

wsprintzer · June 2000

is not knowing what lies ahead for the number of times we have to use the warranty. When I bought the '93 Sonata, it only had a 3 yr. warranty. With my '99, I have the 5 yr. Yes, warranty does not mean quality, but I'd rather not be paying for expensive Honda parts and the increased insurance Hondas require in Massachusetts. Accords are one of the most stolen cars, thus raising insurance rates higher than others. In general, Japanese cars are more expensive to insure. Rates are high enough.

elantra00 · June 2000

for some reason, my msg never got posted. i d take an elantra over a civic anyday. I am not your typically moron that buys a car just for its name. I compared the civic to the elantra and the elantra was much nicer. For about 2,000 less, you can get an elantra with power everything, (not to mention thats standard equipment), rims, CD player, more horsepower (except for SI, which is double the price of elantra), cruise control, and best of all, a 10 year/100,000 mile warranty. I got all this for $11,000! Lets see what the civic has: power nothing, hubcaps, no a/c. less horsepower, and a 3 yr warranty....no where near elantras features hell, you can buy 3 civics, sell them at 3 yrs when the warranty is up, and that one elantra will still be covered. People buy the civic just for the "H" emblem on the hood. The only civic that can compete with the elantra is the EX, which is 6 grand more, and still has 13 less hp and hubcaps. So its obvious the elantra is a much better deal.

Yes, hyundai was bad when the first came out, but they have changed for the better, just like human beings can change. And last but not least, to prove my point fully, just see what edmunds.com thought of the elantra. top 10 economy cars. The elantra recieved 3rd place, 1/2% shy of second against the focus. The civic got 9th place. There is the proof that the elantra is a better deal. Question reliability?....10 yr warranty to back it up. I dont have anything against honda, they have nice cars, especially the accord and S2000, just the civic is too damn expensive, and they are that way because people buy them by name.

elantra00 · June 2000

i meant 1/2 point, not percent. this is based on points the car recieved in tests

daytripper3 · June 2000

quit re-hashing the same posts that you posted, re-posted, and then posted again...if you don't like hyundai...fine...if you do...fine. diff'rent strokes for diff'rent folks!!! whatchu talkin' 'bout willis!?! i highly doubt that the 10 year/100,000 mile warranty is a JUST a marketing gimmick...and i think that you are a little naive and narrow-minded when you say this. why would a company, who knows they manufacture/sell crap, back it up with such an extensive warranty??? do you know how many millions of dollars this would cost them? they would lose more money than they would make!!! or maybe, just maybe...they believe that they have created a quality product, and aren't afraid to back it up??? you always seem so cynical towards anybody's views that differ from yours...i have just one question for you...were you the kid that was always picked on in school, and is now getting back at the world by lashing out, making other people feel inferior, just so, for once in your life, you can feel superior?

daytripper3 · June 2000

cookie???

isellhondas · June 2000

I simply responded to elantra's post. there are two sides to every story and, since he/she slammed Honda, I felt a rebuttal was in order.

And, actually, as a kid in school, I was usually the one that helped protect the weaker ones that the bullies picked on.

and, I agree...Different strokes. Let's just get the facts straight!

wsprintzer · June 2000

or are you guys just having a (private) argument (conversation)between you?

bri70 · June 2000

Did you read Edmunds comparison of nine economy cars? The Elantra was third. Where did the Civic placed?

Ahem...

2nd to last. And notice how much the Civic LX cost compared to the Elantra.

nikecar · June 2000

Oh give me a break. And they rated the Protege 4th. Rather have a protege than the Elantra.

And the Car and Driver test gave the Hyundai 6th place and the Civic 4th. And I'm sure Consumer Reports, Automobile, etc each will swap around the places themselves.

As the C&D report on the hyundai says...It's a great deal if you think it is.

elantra00 · June 2000

first of all, you sell hondas, so id expect you to side with honda. Secondly, admit it that people buy the car just for the name. To get a decently loaded civic, with power packages, your looking to spend $17,000. I got my car, with the same features as the ex, (except i have rims as well, but no roof) for $10,800. The facts are that the elantra is a far better deal then the civic. more power, (13 hp), rims, and 10 yr warranty for about $6,200 less. Those are the facts. and reliability....i have 2000 miles so far, broke in beautifully. no problems yet. my friend has 8000 trouble free miles. so, the poor past of hyundai may be gone. this is a great car. you cant argue you this

drimple · June 2000

C'mon guys, there is no need to bash the Civic. And before you come after me, you should know that I bought a 2000 Hyundai Sonata GLS three months ago.

Yes, Hyundai is less expensive than other car manufacturers, but the reason that other manufacturers cost more is because they have a reputation that allows them to have higher prices. Hyundai has not earned that reputation yet, so low prices are one of the ways they are getting people to buy their cars. Same with the warranty. Honda and Toyota did the same thing when they came into the U.S. car industry many years ago.

I have to be honest, even though I prefered the interior of the Sonata, I would have bought a Camry LE V6 instead if I had the money to do it. Why? Because I know the reliable reputation of the Camry and everyone I know that has a Camry hasn't had any problems with it.

I am pretty sure that Hyundai will slowly raise their prices as their sales figures rise and they build a name for themselves.

As to the Edmunds comparison, I wouldn't put much faith in it, as the major reason the Elantra was 3rd instead of 5th is the fact that they put a big emphasis on value. The Car and Driver test is much closer to the mark in my opinion.

Don't get me wrong, I love my Sonata and I am very happy with my purchasing decision, but I also realize that if I had more money, I would have probably bought something else. I think this view is what a lot of people share, and people are willing to pay more for a reliable product. Hyundai hasn't earned the reliable "title" yet, but they may sometime in the near future.

bri70 · June 2000

Regarding Car and Drivers "It's a
great deal if you think it is." What a stupid statement. That goes for any car. They still have a prejudice against the make that they just can't let go. They did not like the interior plastics moldings (give me a break) or the engine noise (understandable). Even so, C&D lauded the Elantra's performance. One thing I don't get- in the article C&D mentioned more than once how many features the Elantra has. Yet in the features and amenities column it was given a 6 out of ten.

Yes, value was a consideration in the Edmunds comparison. In fact it would have placed 2nd if the spoiler was taken off. Still Edmunds noted the Elantra's strong performance (for an eco car)

Edmunds:

"Thankfully, price isn't the only thing this Hyundai has going for it. All the key ingredients are here: performance, feature content, ergonomics, a top-notch warranty...with some minor improvements this could be the best economy sedan in America. As it stands, it's just a damn good one."

nikecar · June 2000

the statement isn't stupid. If you think its a great car, then bravo for you. Edmunds test can't be considered a "statistically significant" comparison? BS you say? well take into account, some cars have Auto and some cars and manual in the test. there is no way you can accurately guage the performance of a manual to an auto and report on which is better. If you tested all with manual, then all with auto, then yes. but not some yes some no. Also, the options on these cars were inconsistent. for example. The Elantra and the Protege both list that ABS were options, yet in the reviews, they mention performance with the ABS on the Protege, but wish they had ABS with the Elantra. You'd think for such a cheap car, they could have gotten an elantra with ABS. Again, this goes back that they are handicapping cars to begin with. Get all cars as similar as you can, then do a comparison.

isellhondas · June 2000

This forum is called Civic vs. Elantra. As such, the Elantra lovers should expect opposing viewpoints. I'm not the one who started this forum either.

Elantra, I'm glad you like your Hyundai and I hope this passion continues. I'm also glad that you have a whopping 2000 tropuble free miles on it. Your friend has 8000 trouble free miles! Great, but hardly a long term test.

I'm sorry, but I still have a bad taste in my mouth over the earlier offerings. have they improved? Probably. Time will tell.

And, yes, I do believe that some people buy Honda because of the name. It's a well earned good name that is held in high esteem by many.

They also buy Civics because they hold their value like few other cars. I know you don't want to talk about Hyundai resale values!

There is much more to value than a low initial price!

elantra00 · June 2000

just the civic, which i feel is a very overpriced car that stupid people buy at sky high prices.

i love the honda accord. i think that is a very reasonably priced car. for your money, you get a very reliable, quality automobile. my friend has a 99 ex and it is beautiful.

now if honda would drop the price of the civic to around the elantra price, it would be worth considering, but when you go up to around $17,000 for an economy car, you can get a vw jetta for that price, or even an accord, which both are much nicer and solider. but when you have an "economy" car, it should be cheap, like under 14,000.

nikecar · June 2000

well the Civic LX autos are in the ads at under $14K. and once i saw them a shade under $13K. Brother in law got one out the door with extended warranty for $15K even. If anyone pays $17K for any of those cars, they haven't done their homework. Got my Altima loaded for $17K. The price is dependent on negotiation skills. those that don't have it, get stuck with the $17K. Even a little bit of homework can trim it down. i remember a lady in the Honda dealership 4 years ago when i was shopping. She wanted the Accord (don't know which) and the dealer told her $19K. All she kept saying was "no" or "i'm not paying that" and little by little he was down to $16K in less than 5 minutes after conversations with the manager. don't know if she got it or not, but That lady was slick. all she said were those comments. that's good. wish i got her number to get my next car.

isellhondas · June 2000

Well, there must be a whole lot of "stupid" people out there given the number of Civic sales!

And these same people are happy when they trade it in later and find out how much it's still worth!

Try that with a Korean car!

elantra00 · June 2000

i plan to keep my elantra till its dead. its got a great warranty on it, so its worth keeping for at least 10 years. and it was cheap enough, so when i am through with college, i can go out and finance a BMW 323ci. a civic is nice too, but an elantra has so much more to offer at a much cheaper value faster too. (Exception of SI trim)

isellhondas · June 2000

Sounds like it works for you and that's what's important. Remember, your 10 year warranty does not cover everything!

Myself, I would have taken those same dollars and bought something with a proven reputation.

isellhondas · June 2000

A used car, that is. Not necessarily a Honda either. I just think there are better choices, but that's only my opinion!

isellhondas · June 2000

Since you changed your username.

You continue to spew your nonsense under a different name.

Newsflash: Race car engines are routinely rebuilt after every race! No big deal.

You'll have a tough time convincing anybody that Honda builds bad engines. Even the Hyundai lovers here will agree to that.

And, I never said they were crap so please don't put words in my mouth.

A typical posting from Afficando or Genes or whatever you are calling yourself these days...

nikecar · June 2000

my 92 Chevy Cavalier had a distributorless ignition too. No big deal.

Considering the lack of all around resources Korea has, they better be top at 1 or 2 items. Look at Saudi Arabia...#1 in oil production but nothing else. If your good at something, stick to it. The US has more resources all around to make up for not being #1 at something.

And when I lived in Germany, I NEVER saw a Hyundai or a Kia or a Daewoo on the streets. They are popular in Africa an Latin America because smaller cars are needed more there due to smaller roads and more congestion. A smaller car can go where a Lincoln can't. Doesn't mean they are better. Just more needed.

hello26 · June 2000

Honda engines are at the top of the entire automobile industry for technology, efficiency, and cleanliness.

1. Honda Accord is the one with problems (see
Accord topic.
2. Civics start at $10,000.
3. People who buy Civics are not stupid.

Finally, people were lining up around the block to buy Civics in 1973 during the oil crisis. They only imported one other car before this. It was bought by approximately 10 people. Honda has never been known as junk.

You're making yourself and your car look stupid by your criticisms of Honda and your insults of Civic buyers. The post that said I would have bought something else if I had the money was intelligent, honest, and to the point.

aficionado1 · June 2000

distributorless ignition is not a technical feat and nor are hydraulic lifters...

then why isn't honda doin' it??? do they want to suck more money out of the owner's pockets???

those things are one less item that one has to pay their hard earned money to the dealer for maintenance...

valve adjustments every 30,000 miles??? c'mon... for some people that drive a lot that's less than a year... and they start ticking when a valve adjustment is not done in a timely manner... and that's extra one has to pay the dealer for maintenance... and do the civic need periodic valve adjustments???? yes they do!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

ditto for the distributor... new distribuotr wires and with di. cap and rotor and distributor itself is needed periodally.. more money one has to shell out for maintenance...

people buy hondas thinking it is economical to ownnn... the service costs are way way up there.... really call some honda dealerships and ask how much it is for a 30k service on a civic!!!

you might be surprised...

there still are numerous instances of honda distributors that fail around 75k miles or earlier!!! read the posts in the maintenance froum 720 and 903!!! posted above in post #159!!!!!!!!!

it's the owners of accords that are complaining, not me!!!!!

and isellhondars, often times those honda indy(champ) race car engines don't last a few hundred miles...

and they get rebuilt after every race...

yes honda does build high rev engines to get horsepower due to the motorcycle company they are...

to get power out of limited engine size the engine has to be rev to very high stress levels...

that's the way it goes ... you either increase the displacement or rev. the thing into redline territory... to get more power...

of course there's forced induction but that a whole new story...

the horsepowerband of the usual honda engines are very similar if not lower than its counterparts up to the redline of the competitors...

but the honda engines is revved beyond other engines redlines to get that horsepower the the redline level... the problem is, most people drive 75% in stop 'n go driving and 15 freeway so the high revs necessary for power aren't well utilized...

if you look at the honda line of cars their torque figures especially for the perf. oriented vtec engines have less torque than counterparts engines of the same size!!!!! it's just that the honda engines rev very high to get horsepwoer but with no torque...

the high revs are torture to an engine!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

a leading car magazine tested the honda s2000 and shifted the car at 5500 rpm's and the s2000 took over 11 seconds to get to 60 mph!!!!!!!!!

as the magazine put it so well... you have to drive the s2000 like you stole it.

yep the honda indy(champ)engines get rebuilt after every race.... why????????????????????????

because the internals are already out of spec. and tolerances!!!!!!!! and worn beyond usefulness....

and the honda indy(champ)car engines still often times fail in a few hundred miles or less!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! midway thru a race...why????????????????????????????????

high revs takes its toll on the metal no matter what the metallury and construction. it is metal fatigue... and it affects all engines especially revving engines ...

look at the ferrari for example...

in july's issue of road and track, there is a tech session where readers send in letters to the editor...

there is a guy who is scouring the market for a used ferrari f355.

he says several of the f355 he's look at failed leakdown tests with two separate vehicles showing a 18 percent loss in the cylinders and other cylinders mostly exhibiting a 10-12% loss.

he went on to say the compression was a meager 135-145 psi!!!!!!

that's is lower than many other family sedan engines!!!!!

the conclusion is that for the engines to rev high, there has to be tradeoff.. like the engine being loose... especially when cold... the rings and pistons have to expand...

otherwise there could be piston knock until the engine is warmed up...

i could see some buying a car for its brand for a company like mercedes( a flagship model)... they've been building car for a very long time... even then those cars are not known to be without it share of problems....

but a honda??? that's stated out as a motorcycle company and still is....( i'll take the heat for this statement)

they build high rev. engines with little torque and have a variable valve timing system called vtec....

btw, a lot of people don't have a clue as to what it is....

let me explain in layman's terms...

the traditional valve setup usually can be geared towards a low rpm situation or a high rpm situation... meaning the cams can actuate the valve so that the valve open shallow( not even gas or air allowed in)

or very wide... thus allowing for more gas and air to enter, but that wouldn't make for a very smmooth running engine, especially at idle...

so honda devised a way to alter the valve actuation from a shallow to wider opening mode via hydraulically controlled cams and timing...

however, the modern car has both intake and exhaust valves and both have to be actuated for maximum effect...

the reality is on most hondas only the exhaust valves are actuated for better fuel economy... like the civic ex vtec... very very few people would be able to feel the vtec kicking in because only the exhaust valves are being altered and over 4500 rpm!!! one magazine called that the econmy oriented vtec...

then there's the vtec where both the intake and exhaust valves are actuated... even still the kick-in of the vtec would be very very difficult to detect...

and that occurs only after like 5800 rpms or so like on the civic si or over 7000 rpm's or so on the s2000. and the differnece in millimters of actuation difference is just that millimeters!!!!!!

at those rpm's the engine is being tortured!!!!!!

and the engines will fail as some people have experienced in the honda problem forum in maintenance topic #720 and #903.

and there's not much torque due to the fact that torque is horsepower divided by the engine rpm's...

i forgot the formula for converting hp to torque and vice versa but the are the inverse of the other with the engine rpm's......

and the higher rpm's the horsepower is developed, the less torque there is....

and we amereicans, as i reiterate, do most of our driving in stop 'n' go situations.... even on the freeways!!! we need torque not horsepower... (although we'd like to have both)

for racing, hp is good... but for the real everyday driving environment???? torque is the more preferred...

many other manufacturers have similar systems that are infinitely variable and not just a limited stage( one currently) like honda's...

in germany there are a new crop of diesel cars that are coming out...

bmw has just introduced a 740 diesel model...the diesel engine s inherently have hiogh torque because the power is produced at lower rpm's..

and even merc benz an vw are coming out with diesels in their biggest bodied cars... of course the diesels get good fuel economy but they have lot of torque!!! they are popular in germany.
i can see why the the germans haven't given up on the diesel...

and nikecar i don't know when you were in germany but have you been there recently??? one of my friend's family in germany just bought a hyundai sonata there!!! they like it a lot!!!!

have you been to england or greece?? hyundais and daewoo are all over the streets there too...

and korea does have on prized resourse that is priceless....

human resourses!!!!!!!!!!!!

koreans are one of the hardest working people in the world and they still have a six day( well 5 1/2) workweek. even china doesn't have that!!!

the highly skilled and trained people of korea no doubt helped rebuild that country from ashes...to one of the world's economic industrial powers today...

I respect that...

remember we fought a war on their side...

korea is the no.5 car producing nation in the world.

the biggest shipbuilding yard in the world is in okpo, korea.

the single biggest steel company is in korea and is called posco (pohang steel) and is listed on the nyse.

electronics is another strength of korea...

KOREA IS IN.

end.

Honda Civic vs. Hyundai Elantra

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