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If you are the type of person who trades in their car after 2-3 years, then I'd go with a Toyota Corolla, Honda Civic, Mazday Protege, etc. Here, resale value is very important since you are always trading up for a new car. If you went with Hyundai, you will be nailed every time you traded in with lower resale. Eventhough resale value is going up, it still isn't the greatest. Depreciation is still quite a bit on Hyundai...but it's improving
Now, if you are like me, who plans on keeping the car till the end; then resale isn't important whatsover. If you are the type of person who keeps a car for 5+ years, the Elantra is the better choice. Resale value is non-existent, so lets put that aside. Upfront costs is most important. Being that both cars are pretty equal in quality, the elantra is 7,000 cheaper then the civic Ex comparitively equipped. Not only that, you have a 10 year warranty on the engine, so since you plan on keeping the car for a long time, you dont have to worry about expensive work on it other then normal maintance. So in this case, the elantra is the wiser choice.
Then, in 3 years, I will have enough to buy a real sports car, a brand new Volkswagen GTI VR6...
I really like that I am driving a car made by the "greenest" car company on earth too. I find that getting gas is something I don't do often. So much that when I get gas now, I don't remember the last time I did. Very unlike my VR6 Jet....every other day getting petrol....:(
Elantra00 - you better get that GTI VR6 soon. If VW is smart, they will update that engine. It is low-tech and getting old. I think it has character though....I loved it most of the time.
Anyway, I'm off to the Mazda dealer tonight to finally start negotiating a deal. I finally got the exact job I wanted, and so now its off to buy the car while I still have some time to enjoy it (I have a week's holiday before I start). I would probably have bought the Hyundai if I could get it equipped the way I want (manual w/power acc. and sunroof). Hyundai Canada just doesn't give you too many options.
I didn't think it was nearly that much.
Well...if you really LIKE the Elantra better than the Civic and really plan to keep it ten years, the depreciation factor would be minimal.
But, most people don't do that and that's how they get killed on resale.
Have they fixed their dismal reliability problems?
Only time will determine that. As I've stated before, the BEST warranty is the one you never have to use. To me, the ten year warranty was an attempt to regain confidence in what was a pretty lackluster product. VW had to do the same thing.
And, I think the 10 year warranty only applies to the powertrain, am I right?
Please bear in mind, folks, again, due to the title of this forum, I think opposing viewpoints need to be presented.
Do I think Hyundais are crappy cars...No!
Do I think there are better alternatives..Yes!
and those alternatives aren't restricted to Hondas either.
But...this is only my opinion.
Car and driver June 2000
Elantra/Civic/Protege(Standard Trans.)
0-60: 8.3/9.5/8.9
Top gear, 50-70mph: 12.0/19.5/13.2
Motor Trend January 2001
Elantra/Civic EX/Nissan Sentra SE
0-60: 8.4/9.0/7.9
AJAC
Automobile Journalist Association of Canada
Had the "Best in the economy class acceleration"
80-120 km/h
Elantra/Civic/Sentra
6.8/7.9/7.5
Top gear acceleration is more "Real World" applicable...going up hills with a full load passing that SEMI on the highway thats where you'll see 140 hp makes a difference.
Still prejudging Hyundai...seems they are getting better...
Honda and Mazda(FORD) more reliable...I guess I shouldn't read all the posts on the other boards if I want to continue to believe in "Santa Claus".
Hunday's are cheaper b/c they are built cheaper. It will take many years of building Honda like quality into their cars to ever get me to consider one.
2) Also why did Honda do away with the civic's independent wishbone suspension system that gave the gave a nice sporty ride? To increase interior room? But Civic's already had good interior room.
3) Why did Honda stop producition of their civic hatchbacks?
Leo
The reason they got rid of the wishbone up front was for crash test and room reasons. Not for cost. Cost did not matter since the factory was already tooled for the double wishbone for years. It cost more to develop the race track inspired new front suspension.
The Hyundai is not even a full second faster than the EX Civic according to most tests. It sounds faster, because it is so much louder, but really not much faster. Buying a car in the 12-16k range I don't expect blistering acceleration.
But for all of the critics, yes, the Hyundai is a little faster I guess. And everyone complains about the Honda Civic new suspension... it is still more refined and higher tech than the Hyundai. Newer design...
Better alternatives? Sure, there are better alternatives. I rather have a VW GTI or Jeep Grand Cherokee, etc. Those are MUCH better alternatives if you ask me. But wait....this thing they call "money" comes into play. Thats why I drive an Elantra and not those sweet rides I just mentioned. So when you have 12,000 to spend, your options are limited. Lets drop resale because Honda wins that one, but everything else is debatable.
Choice for $12,000: Brand new fully loaded Elantra OR (in this case) a used honda civic at least 3 years old with 35k+ not similarly equipped? Hell, I would take the new car anyday. Not at all saying the civic is bad, but I rather have the peace of mind that the car has not been beaten, being brand new and where its been not to mention having a great warranty to back it up.
Now, if you have 15,000+ to spend, then by all means get the civic. If I had that much to spend, then that would have been on my list. Cant go wrong with a car like that. (Better get the coupe though, the sedan is ugly...:P) If Honda would lower their prices, then there would be some real competion between the two and who knows...maybe I would have gotten a civic because I like the styling of the coupe. But as far as price goes, the elantra is the much better deal
Now
I do wonder what the MSRP difference is.
Myself, I would probably buy something used, but that's me.
And, A Jeep Grand Cherokee would NOT be a good alternative. I own one and can attest to the fact they are maintenance intensive.
But then, it's a Jeep and that has to be expected!
I think Justin answered the double wishbone question. Again, they improved handling while improving safety and interior room at the same time.
Hatchbacks were discontinued because of lagging sales.
Civic EX 4dr 5spd: $17,350 US
Elantra GLS 5spd: $12,934 US
Both prices include destination. For the Elantra, you can knock off another $500 for the ever-present rebate. Hondas never offer rebates, right? So that's closer to a $5K difference, and does not take into account extra equipment on the EX. After you add the extras to an Elantra, it's closer to a $3500-4K difference, before negotiating. I've seen new base '01 Elantras advertised as low as $10,700 (San Diego), so it's possible to get quite a discount on them... at least for now, until more people discover them and sales heat up!
Re 50% increase in sales not being a big deal: it will be a big deal pretty soon, just compound it over a couple of years. For example, Honda sold about 300,000 Civics in the U.S. last year and Hyundai sold about 100,000 Elantras. At 10% and 50% growth rates, respectively, here's what it looks like for the next few years:
2001: Civic 330,000, Elantra 150,000
2002: Civic 363,000, Elantra 225,000
2003: Civic 400,000, Elantra 337,000
2004: Civic 440,000, Elantra 455,000
Not to say that these rates will hold steady for four years, but you get the idea. And in 2004 I'll still have a year left on my full warranty and six years left on the powertrain warranty--time to turn it over to my son and get my Bimmer!
I have never really considered an Elantra as competition so I've felt no need to know I guess.
In my neck of the woods,my customers tell me they are cross shopping Toyotas mainly. Sometimes it's VW or Mazda. I honestly can't recall anyone EVER telling me they were going to look at Hyundai.
I guess this could change, but around here Hyundais are seldom seen. San Diego may well be different I guess.
Your projections are interesting. somehow I don't see that happening though.
As far as your warranty. If a person is THAT sold on long warranties, it's possible to pay extra and buy Hondacare which go's seven years, 100,000 miles. Again, the best warranty is the one you don't have to constantly use.
The deep discounts and rebates are needed to spur sales. I think you would agree with that.
Should sales perk up as you predict, these will stop.
You made a very valid point. Unless a company continues to evolve and improve they will lose market share. " Yesterday's hits don't win today's ballgames" someone wise once said.
Although I don't happen to consider Hyundai competition, I hope that Honda does.
I also know that people tend to have a short memory somtimes. I remember well, the early offerings from Hyundai. Others won't remember or care.
If we didn't discuss the merits of cars like the Civic vs. Elantra ad infinitum like this, then we'd all have to go out and do something else, like play with our kids or talk to our spouses or go shovel our driveways or... and Edmunds would have all these servers and disk drives just sitting there idling. I think that as adults we are capable of expressing our opinions without hurting each others' feelings--and we usually manage to do that. It is a free country, and a free forum. Those who wish to use it may do so, and those who have other ways to spend their free time can do something else. But those who don't think these forums are a good thing... please don't spoil our fun.
It's possible that Hyundai is taking sales from Honda dealers without the dealers knowing about it. Case in point: when I was shopping for a car last fall, I stopped in at a Honda dealer to check out the new Civic EX 4dr. I had determined up front, based on research and previous Civic ownership, that the EX was the most comparable car to the El antra I was considering. I first scoured the lot to compare the '01s to the '00s that were still there. My impression was that the '01s were an improvement over the '00s styling-wise, but I still preferred the El antra's styling. Then I went into the showroom and looked around. It was 3 pm on a Friday, dead, one other customer in the whole place. Most of the salespeople were standing around talking with each other; a few were on phones. No one approached me. So I proceeded to pour over the Civic EX 4dr on the showfloor. It was of typical Honda quality, a little roomier in back than the '00 but less so than the Elantra. Interior bits were also of high quality, but the seats seemed less comfortable than the Elantra's. I was about to ask for a test drive when I saw the window sticker. After the usual Honda dealer add-ons, the price was almost $20,000 + TTL. I smiled, since I had just been offered a '01 Elantra down the road for $11,300 + TTL(which I stupidly chose to sleep on, as it was gone later that day). I knew even if I could negotiate a "good deal", the Civic would cost me thousands more than the Elantra. I walked out of the showroom, deciding that I would not be buying my third Civic. I bought an Elantra a couple of weeks later. Since no one at the Honda dealership talked with me, they had no idea that I passed on the Civic to buy an Elantra.
Honda has been hugely successful in the U.S. marketplace. Sometimes, long-term success breeds complacency and arrogance. I hope that does not happen to Honda.
"Better value!"
"Better resale!"
"More power!"
"Higher mpg!"
and so on.
I think, for now, the overriding reason people buy Hyundai's is price. I know people will argue, but I really believe that. That was the reason I bought my Hyundai - because it was DIRT CHEAP. After driving it for a bit, I realized it had ZERO sound insulation from the engine and road. To me, the more I drive my Honda, I feel that the Civic might as well be an Accord when compared to my 2000 Elantra. I suppose the 2001 Elantra is nicer than the 2000, but not sure how much nicer and refined.
That has really nothing to do with really liking the car...
More like "World tell me what is the RIGTH, or SMART thing to buy..so I don't look stupid in front of my friends"
I bought the a 2001 Elantra going from a 2000 Concorde and it was not as dramatic a change as I thought it would be. In fact it's as smooth even more solid (no rattles) and fun to drive even in the base model that I have.
VALUE=yes...PRICE= No way am I going to pay that for an economy car!
The biggest problem I have had with Honda and the others is styling...They are totally uninspired (like a toaster) it's useful reliable. What you see other people trying to do to make them different (wings, wheels, etc) is totally overdone, visually loud...your typical "Rice Burner". Because they realize what they have needs it. But it ends up looking like Mimi from Drew Carey.
The Elantra has progressed, improved, to the point that it is an viable alternative to the mainstream mentality.
2001 Elantra to me= European STYLE, Solid VALUE
Reliable to date, no recalls but isn't that possible with any car?
Even I was suckered into believing the hype when I bought my 1999 Honda Odyssey.
Check out the Honda board something about a PCM among other things...I guess nobody perfect?
Leo
Actually, this discussion has shown people who can afford Civics are considering now worthy options such as the Koreans. As I said, I came very,very close to buying the Elantra. If only I got have gotten a manual eqipped the way I like. Alas, I spent $4000 more for the Mazda (fully, fully loaded. The only thing I could add is a 6 CD changer).
Justin: Don't compare a 2000 Elantra to a 2001 Civic. It's not a fair comparison. The 2001 is a completely different car than the 2000. It wouldn't be fair either to compare a 2001 Elantra with a 2000 Civic. This latest generation of cars from just about all manufactures is a good leap from the previous.
--Kyle
Somebody had too much coffee this morning.
As far as history it was an American (can't remember his name) who taught Japanese how to build cars the way they do today. He went to Japan after being rejected by Detroit. Another visionary rejected by the mainstream. Of course we ae paying for it now.
Toyotas and yes Hondas were not considered reliable (bodywork falling off etc.) for a good 10 years when they entered the North American market. It wasn't until the late '80s early '90s that they overcame the stygma of building "sh...boxes".
Hyundai is accomplishing that in less time...
LONG LIVE CHRYSLER...oops wrong board.
I say it was more like the late '70s or early '80s, even mid-'70s that the Japanese small cars were considered better and way more reliable than their American counterparts- Chevette, Vega, Pinto and Gremlin.
as you can tell from my parents having a Pinto, our family is all class!
The american you refer to is Arthur Demming. He introduced the idea of TQM (Total Quality Management) to the japanese in or about the 60's I believe. It was and still is an utter shame that he was shooed out of detroit. They sure could have used his help at that time (and still now in many cases). as for japanese cars having a bad rep in the 80's, on the contrary that is when america really saw those cars shine. Aside from rust issues, these cars outlasted their american counterparts by leaps and bounds. I speak from experience. When i was younger my family owned 2 subaru wagons. one was a 1981 model and the other was a 1984 model. Almost no problems with either of them. They started every mornig and drove us around for a long time. When I graduated high school in 1992 I was given the 1984 model with about 90k miles. I drove the crap out of that car for years until i sold in it 1997. It left me with 170k miles on it and 500 dollars in my pocket. It was the best car have ever owned. Given the chance I would trade my civic in a second to have it back. Anyway I'm straying from my point. That being in the 80's other than bad music japanese cars really came into their own and were much more reliable than their competition (excels definately included)
Justin-
As to the civic having a real engine jsut wait until they reintroduce the civic Si. Then we'll see. it will outdrag, outcorner, and generally out drive the elenatra 140hp or not.
To All-
I apologize for my comment about socioeconomic status. It was not meant to offend and if it does then you have my sincerest apologies
I returned to Korea after spend two years in US, to find that the 'new 2001 Elantra' actually is 'Avantee'.
Hyundai started to build Avantee in early 90's, and it was originally aimed to the sporty compact market.
The car has been built more solidly than Elantra and usually has been equipted with more powerful engine.
Among Koreans, it's usually been regarded as a substitute of Sonata.
2001 Elantra in US is still sold in Korea as an Avantee. And the price of 2000cc Avantee exceeds the price of a base Sonata in Korea.
Overall, it's better car.
I will return to US soon, and have to spend 5 to 6years there. I need a reliable economy car for the period. I drove a used Buick and found that it is not very reliable(I had a bundle of problems with that).
Reliability and easy re-sail are the priorities.
I am considering to buy a Collora CE.
Please let me know your opinion.
The Elantra is like the Protege's old 1.8 liter engine. Old technology. Poor MPG's. About as old as the 2.0 liter VW engine...
Both the Hyundai, and my new 2.0 Litre Protege ES, seem to average 33 mpg. Oh shucks, darn, Justin, whatever will I do with such "poor" MPG. There is no doubt that the Civic is pretty much the greenest car out there (hybrids aside), and Honda has done wonders to get so much power out of such a small engine.
How fast your engine turns at 80 mph?
I have a few quotes which I've worked down a bit and was wondering whether or not these seem like good deals.
The best quote I have so far is $12843 (includes dest charge and CA emissions fees).
Edmunds lists the invoice of these items to be $12236 for the base, $438 for pkg2 + CA emissions and $435 for the destination charge, adding up to $13109 invoice. However there's currently a $500 rebate from Hyundai, bringing down the effective dealer cost from $13109 to $12609.
So is $12843 a good price then? I believe that's approx 1.8% above the dealer's invoice (with rebate). How much are others paying for theirs?
Thanks,
Picked up a 2001 Elantra pkg 2 for $12800 (includes dest and CA emissions), which I think is pretty good in the bay area. I actually had to drive 78 miles to the dealership, there's only one other dealership in the area. Dealership was excellent.
Oh yeah, got them to throw in the usual mud flaps and floor mats for free.
Very nice so far.
Did they give you two remotes?
I am surprised at the number of dealerships here in the SF bay area. There used to be two at the local super-mall-city place, which is about 15 minutes from the city. But both those closed.
Now the closest is across the bay, which is only about 16 miles away but is about 1 hour (because you have to cross the bridge, multiple hours during rush hour). The next closest is also across the bay but 46 miles away. The one I went to was 78 miles away. You'd think the SF bay area would have enough interest in affordable cars to warrant at least one dealership on the penninsula.
When I test-drove the '91 Civic new, I also drove a new Excel hatch -- $2,000 cheaper. Difference was, the Honda was fun to drive; I was bored with the Excel 5 minutes into the test drive. The shifter was balky and the lower quality was evident.
It was a wise choice. The '91 Civic's still in the family (away at college) at 150,000 miles, and has left us stranded exactly once (igniter board replaced the same day under recall -- Honda even took me to and from work that day).
My '97 hatch, at 90,000 miles, is super-reliable and more powerful (106 hp vs. 70 in the '91), but much less fun to drive (higher seating position may have an impact here).
I'd buy another Honda in a minute, but their marketing folks have deemed that PRACTICAL IS BAD! The hatch is dead, and the CR-V has no real appeal. I love being able to throw whatever in the back, but there's no FWD Honda now that will work for me.
Hyundai seems to have matured and improved a LOT since '91. To succeed the '97 Civic, I will consider a new Elantra 5-door hatch, or wait a year til the wagon comes back (even better) if the rumors are true.
The combination of acceptable build quality (better than Chrysler's at least, in my opinion) and practicality make the Elantra a strong contender for my next car. And that's something even 5 years ago I NEVER expected to say.