Pontiac Grand Prix - 2000-2005

dindak · June 2003

ab348 : How is On-Star questionable? Other manufacturers like Honda are jumping on board. It's a high margin business.

montanafan : A rear seat change would be good. I'm hoping for better cloth seat patterns soon also. Just a few little things like that can boost sales. The rest of the car is fine. I will try and test a GT2 next week.

evandro · June 2003

I take all of them with an ounce of salt, whether positive or negative, whether at launch or later. Especially magazines, that just must review new cars or others will. I guess that they would be boycotted by the manufacturers if they dissed a new car too soon.

Yet, CR is whole other story, like saying that the then just released Mazda 6 had a good reliability record without any data about it, and in the same issue stated to not have enough data about an American car (which one escapes me now).

The bottom line is that journalists don't buy my cars for me, I do. They don't have to balance cost in their sometimes ridiculous reviews with the excuse of being "enthusiasts". My own review is the ultimate one and the only one I rely on.

evandro · June 2003

I couldn't care less if GM got into the welfare business, it's their own mistake. My problem is when a top-of-the-line 240HP Accord V6 can be had for about the same as a GP GT2. I dread the Accord styling inside and out, but the materials used in it and the craftsmanship are benchmarks in its category.

I bought all the GM cars I've had so far because they seemed to be the best bang for my buck. I'm not sure I can justify to myself a GP stickering at $30g...

evandro · June 2003

Would those who've been lucky enough to get a new GP do me a favor? Whether the engine is normally aspirated or supercharged, can you please remove the engine cover and check out the material of the upper intake manifold: plastic or aluminum?

I'm wondering if the coolant issue has been addressed in this generation once and for all...

TIA

montanafan · June 2003

I peaked under the hood while I had the 24hr car and checked the non-supercharged cars at the dealership. The Series III 3800 uses a metal material upper intake. The Series II (95-03) used the plastic type material, which was subject to degradation and leaks on the 95-98s.

evandro · June 2003

Now all I need to know is whether one can get the Series III upper manifold and put it on a Series II. ;-) Of course, the electronic TB may require a different layout...

johnclineii · June 2003

IF they fixed the rear seat and made better cloth available, I might very well be next in line to buy a GTP.

And that's the truth.

oldsman01 · June 2003

At least Pontiac could put better cloth in the upline GPs and leave the "ugly cloth" in the base models which have the plastic wheel covers. And a rear seat center armrest would be a nice touch also.

dindak · June 2003

You don't like plastic wheel covers???????

;-)

regfootball · June 2003

If pontiac put an interior in it that was at least the equal to an Accord or VW in terms of quality of materials and assembly, and had a interior design that was TASTEFUL (like the new Mazda 6 perhaps?) then we all wouldn't be sitting here critizing them for not doing so.

Mazda 6 interior....simple, nice looking, sporty looking yet not outright cluttered and bizarre or freaky. Yet the car is cheaper than a Grand Prix.....hmmmm........and you folks always said the money they 'saved' FOR YOU (ha) by using the cheap pushrod motor was gonna keep the price of the car down. So maybe they could put that 'saved' money into the interior for once?

oldsman01 · June 2003

Other than the Accord's electroluminescent instrument cluster(rare in this class) there is nothing about the interior that impresses me. As someone posted before, the dash has all the excitment of a Kenmore washing maching control console. And it looks like one too:) The 6 isn't bad, but it does lack a few features that GM typically gives you ALTHOUGH, I have criticized the GP here as it lacks a few of those things as well. Still when the rubber meets the road, a 260 hp supercharged V6 is hard to argue against, pushrod or not:)

ab348 · June 2003

Different strokes, I guess. I don't care for the exterior styling of the Accord, but when I was looking at them the interior immediately struck me as the best part of the car. It appealed to me immediately as well-designed and constructed. Just the opposite of the GP, where the exterior styling is good but the interior immediately turned me off considering the car.

b4z · June 2003

Looks like all the Intrigue and Impala thread
regulars are posting over here.

Pontiac forgot one thing when they designed this car. It is a sedan and it is meant to carry more than 2 people.

That is what the backseat is for. If there is more style than substance and the back seat is unusable than the car will not sell well.

I will keep my Impala a little while longer and probably step up to the Cadillac CTS.
I have had to take the Grand Prix off my list.

johnclineii · June 2003

It's off my list, too, for the same reason.

Well, that and the Uglycloth seats.

The Ford Motor Company will probably get my business for the first time in about 15 years, and the interior of the new GP is the reason. GM lost a $30k or so sale from me, and no doubt many others.

I do wonder what they were thinking.

I just hope my 2000 Impala LS with 123,000 miles can hold out til the hatchback and wagon Mazda6 are available! I want to compare those to the sedan before deciding which model I want (and I want a factory SIRIUS radio...had I bought the GP I would have gotten a model without XM and then installed SIRIUS).

And dindak, before you even get started, I owned a 98 GTP, I have driven a new GTP over 200 miles, and no, the performance and exterior were NOT enough to get me past that horrid interior and nearly unusable rear seat. Have you even driven the GP yet?

Why am I still here, you might ask? I can't help but believe the problems on the GP as I see them are easily fixable, and that GM might well fix them if they realize the sales they are losing due to them. I LOVE idea of the versatility of the GP, I just don't see why they had to make the back seat so uncomfortable to do it. I also don't understand why they have to use that particular cloth. There are those of us who do not want leather, for many reasons that have been explained here and elsewhere again and again, from heat/cold to maintenance to animal rights issues (not ours in my case, but my colleagues and clients whose feelings I do NOT want to unnecessarily hurt).

b4z · June 2003

The Impala is plenty versatile with it's fold down rear seat. I can get a 32" screen door all the way in and close the trunk. A 36" screen door does however stick out past the trunk.
I can also get a 12' long piece of vinyl or board in and close the trunk.
Why would I need to put a kayack in, and where would the passenger sit if I did?
Kayacks can ride on the roof where they belong.
Also Pontiac has sloped the roof so much that even if they did raise the rear seat cushion there would be no headroom.
The whole greenhouse needs to be redesigned.

b4z · June 2003

Whatever my next car is it will have a OHC motor.
They are so much more refined and quiet and the passing power is much better.
This is where the Intrigue really excelled.
The IMpala would be a much bettercar if it offered a OHC motor.

carguy58 · June 2003

in 15 years. I don't think thats a good thing for Ford that they get a sale from a company they own one third of. I think Ford would rather you go to a Ford Dealership and buy a Tarus to get their business. I guess its just of sign of the times though.

I have seen clips of the GP interior I think its better than the model its replacing in terms of quality of interior materials.

b4z · June 2003

At least the Taurus offers a DOHC. Something that is unavailable in ANY GM mid size sedan.
Cadillac excluded, but that is a higher price point.

evandro · June 2003

The Taurus' DOHC is a very interesting engine, in the same class as the Intrigue's. Too bad its tranny is not as smooth and "telepathic". Then again, if one thinks low of the GP's interior, the Taurus' is below the ground.

My brother drove a CTS with the new 3.6 DOHC for 300mls and, in his opinion, both the 3.5 and the 3.8 gained an honorable successor. According to him, the variable valve phasing brought it the best of both worlds: high RPM capabilities and great low-end torque. Not to mention the excellent tranny that would allow up-shifts up to 6700RPM.

Yet, that CTS, even though a pre-production unit, left to desire in workmanship. Is there ever going to be a day when UAW will go out of existence and the domestic manufacturers will be able to get real professionals to put the cars together?

evandro · June 2003

Am I the only one feeling out of choices? Right now, these are the ones I might consider if no new release happens in the next couple of years:

- Pontiac GP: provided the interior isn't too cheap and its price falls.

- Mazda 6: provided the interior isn't too cramped and its reliability is better than typical Mazda.

New models that might be possibilities:

- Buick Regal: provided it's more Olds-like than Buick-like.

- Pontiac G6: provided the interior isn't too cheap and not too cramped.

- Ford 500: provided the interior is an improvement over the Taurus'.

Current models out of my list:

- Saab 9-3, Infinity G35, Caddy CTS: too pricey.

- VW Passat: unimpressive hype.

- Honda Accord: can't get over the ugly styling inside and outside.

- Nissan Altima: cheap interior and exterior with sub-par handling.

- Nissan Maxima: can't get over the front-end styling and its price tag.

- Toyota Camry: Maytag would have done better.

- Ford Taurus: cheap interior and lack of overall refinement.

- Any Korean: can't get over the styling and the quality, or lack thereof.

Did I left any car out?

vcjumper · June 2003

How about the 05 Legacy redesign.

b4z · June 2003

Legacy is a beautiful car. I have always had a soft spot for wagons, especially good looking ones.
I was hoping they would stretch the wheelbase since it remains at 105.9 inches.
A test drive will tell me if there is enough room.

oldsman01 · June 2003

I pretty much agree with your list although I will try and squeeze a base model CTS in there as it is alreay an impressive car and the new engine should make it even more so.

b4z, yes the Taurus has an OHC engine but Ford also cut some corners on the car in some areas. I sat in a loaded Sable LS at an autoshow last year and for an MSRP of about $23K(and this is before the heavy discounts) it was not a bad car as it was fully loaded. However, through the sharp alloy wheels I could see drum brakes on the rear and then there was the fixed mast antenna which marred an otherwise sharp exterior. Now if that OHC engine was the same one used in the pre-96 SHOs, I'd be the first in line to buy one. I'm with you on the CTS, it will likely be my next car as the new 3.6 liter V6 looks to be sweet.

carguy58 · June 2003

First of all on the 6 Mazda's are pretty reliable cars. When Ford has alot of input on Mazda cars Mazda cars are usually really bad when they have extensive Ford Parts in them. Most Mazda's have above average reliability. The 6 should be one of them that has above average realiability because Mazda had most of the input on the 6 not Ford.

Honda Accord: The interior is nice I'll agree the exterior styling has got to go on the 4dr Accord.

Korean Mid-size: The Sonata is a great value except I don't like the exterior styling.

evandro · June 2003

Yes, I forgot it.

I don't know... I sat in a current one in an auto show and thought it was a bit cramped and its styling was very... Japanese: as bland as it gets. Blander only to German, you know, "one sausage, three sizes".

Its 2.5 H4 never inspired me, but I don't know about the H6.

But the bottom line is that the car begs more questions than I cared to answer.

regfootball · June 2003

The Mazda6 is quite roomy on the interior, check it out.

johnclineii · June 2003

And the Mazda6 hatch and wagon go into North American production in February and March, respectively. I will probably be buying one or the other. Judging from the sedan, yes, there's less power than in the GTP, especially at lower speeds, but the handling and braking are both, in my opinion, superior. I suspect the hatch and wagon will handle similarly. In these two versions, the cargo versatility of the GP should come along with a usable rear seat!

Were it not for the Uglycloth and the unusable (by adults) rear seats, my next car would have no doubt been an 04 Grand Prix GTP with Comp Group.

The decontenting that has gone on on the Impala since I bought mine is also a factor. If all these things I can see are gone, what, if anything, has GM done to the engineering?

oldsman01 · June 2003

Over 100K on your 2000 already? Thats a bit of driving. BTW, does yours have the 3800? If so, then I wouldn't be too concerned with the car not making it much further as those powertrains are very reliable. I do agree that the decontenting has got to stop. I can remember several years ago when a vehicle's design was beginning to age(i.e. 3rd or 4th year of current style) GM and others would make more features standard and even add new options to keep interest. Now it seems they are taking features away. The worst part is, they are not lowering the price any when features are deleted. Don't get me wrong, I like the new GP but for 30K it is overpriced. Now if it had dual zone automatic climate control, a power passenger seat, auto dimming rearview mirror, heated exterior mirrors, and maybe a little wood or even brushed aluminum to spruce the dash up a bit, 30K wouldn't be such a bad price. Heck, if one is going to spend 30K on a poncho, wait for the GTO.

carguy58 · June 2003

its a Japanese Car so its supposed to look Japanese. I think Honda and Toyota forgot they were Japanese Car Companies on the latest Accord and Camry. At least Subaru still knows its a Japanese company.

drwilsc · June 2003

The Saturn L300 is a non-Cadillac GM car that features a DOHC V6 engine.

johnclineii · June 2003

...and Subaru is partly owned by General Motors.

dindak · June 2003

oldsman : I agree, the Accord interior is over rated, but still good.

johnclineii : I can't see how you have an Impala and think the GP has a cheap dash?? I agree with you on the seats but I don't get the animal rights thing??

vcjumper : Too bad Subaru doesn't have any V6 sedans. Even better if they start taking the GM card down the road like Saab.

b4z : Like was said L300 has a DOHC and next year's G6 (Grand Am replacement) will also.

johnclineii · June 2003

You haven't heard me say one word about the GP having a cheap dash. You HAVE seen me complain about the seats and the back seat.

That being said, I don't see any major improvement in the dash from my 98 GTP.

The Impala was/is a large car at a low midsize price. That being said, even it has better seat material and better seating than the 04 GP.

Sad, really.

The animal rights thing is a very big thing with some of my friends. They have a problem that cows died so that they can sit. I don't, but I do have a problem with cold in the winter, hot in the summer, noisy, etc.

oldsman01 · June 2003

I'm not sure a Japanese looking car is a good thing or not as Japanese cars(espeically sedans) are typically boring looking. But your right about the Camry forgetting it is a Japanese car. To me, it's a Japanese Buick. And the buyers seem to be aging just like Buick buyers as well. I parked next to a current generation Camry the other day and was surprised at how big it appeared. particularly from the rear, the Camry looks like a big sedan. I can remember when American cars were criticized for being overly large and cumbersome when compared to more compact Japanese cars. That doesn't seem to be the case much anymore. At least they have gotten away from the billboard style rear ends, you know the ones with "CAMRY" or "MAXIMA" written in big letters right in the center of the rear deck lid.

carguy58 · June 2003

The Japanese Cars always got criticized for being too small. I am a Japanese Car Fan and older people would always tell me Japanese Cars are too small. So there another way of looking at it. As for the Camry it looks like a Tarus. Toyota has the oldest age buyer of any Japanese Car Company: I understand why. I'm 23 and I did like the Honda Accord's of the 90's. The new Accord Sedan is not my style personally. I'm not really into Mustang's or souped up Civic's like the rest of my generation is. As for Japanese Sedans being boring the Altima is not boring looking it just has a cheap interior. I like the Mazda 6 and VW Passat myself.

dindak · June 2003

oldsman : The Camry is brutal. May as well drive a Buick as they are just as old looking and pretty much as reliable with much better deals. Camry sells on it's reputation alone, there is nothing attractive about it otherwise.

johnclineii : Maybe I'm confusing you with someone else, but I agree with you on the seats for the most part though I think the front buckets are VERY comfortable. People with animal rights issues are usually big hypocrites. I know one who wears leather shoes but somehow thinks eating meat and the seal hunt are bad things. What a joke.

gunit · June 2003

y johnclineii Jun 08, 2003 (10:58 pm)

>>>The Impala was/is a large car at a low midsize price. That being said, even it has better seat material and better seating than the 04 GP. <<<

A fully loaded 2003 Impala is $28k+ MSRP and doesn't even come with a supercharger. You can get a 2003 GTP for the same price with a supercharger, big diff,

The Impala is getting old, looks the same since it's 2000 introduction, and it was never a good looking car, esp that big ugly rear, just like the Monte.

gunit · June 2003

I have owned a 1997 GTP coupe, 1 and now a 2002 GTP coupe, 02 the last yr of the coupe, and I will never be buying another GTP unless they bring back the coupe. The coupe was just as roomy as the 4 door, in fact it's the same car, just harder to get in and out of the backseat, it looked alot more stylish/sporty as 2 door. Every GP of 1962-1989 was a coupe. Now all that is left for the future is the ugly monte. Pontiac still makes a 2 door Grand Am and Sunfire, why not the GTP? Apparently many people at the NY Auto show were asking the same question, about why no 2 door? They didn't have any answers. Remember the 2 door was almost 15-20% of GP sales...

So in 2007 I will be looking elsewhere

I

gunit · June 2003

I think the 1997-2003 looked better then the new 2004, especially the rear. Maybe it's just me. The leather/seats are better quality in the 2004, more padding now. The interior is still on the cheap side though, better, but still could be better. Yes the GTP at $28k+ is expensive... a loaded V6 Altima is nearly $28k too.... and the new 2004 Maxima is in the $30-32k range... guess what, that is Infiniti territory. For that price I would be buying an Infiniti, not a Nissan.

The best deal now if you can find it, is a leftover 2003 GTP with the $4k GM rebate. You are getting a $28k MSRP car for $24k, before even negotiating.

A 2003 GTP for $24k is a lot better then a 2004 GTP for $28k. I don't see $4k worth of improvements... I'd rather have the 03 for $24k then the '04 for $28k. My opinion I guess.

I bought my 2002 GTP coupe in September 2002 when the 2003's were already out, #1 I wanted a coupe and '02 was the last year and I got a great deal. My car was $28k, loaded, sunroof, leather, Bose, etc. I got the $3k GM rebate which brings us to $25k and I got $3k more off via negotiating as it was a leftover.

I paid $22k for my fully loaded 2002 GTP coupe... can't beat that for the price.

I remember paying that much in 1997 for myGTP..

oldsman01 · June 2003

I'm only a few years older than you and it is refreshing to hear from someone in the low 20s that doesn't think Japanese cars mean all that crap you see in Civics and others. The Mazda 6 is an exception as I find it to be a pretty good looking sedan. The Altima is not bad from the front, but those foil taillights ruin the car for me. That and the interior. As I said before, the 89-94 generation Maxima was probably the "purest" Japanese sedan. It was conservative looking, but not dull. It performed well(for it's day at least) but didn't scream for attention and it was about the right size. The 6 kind of fits in that spot now.

evandro · June 2003

I have mixed feelings about this car. At the Detroit auto show, the plastics had so many barbs that one pulled a thread from my brother's shirt. The units I've checked out at dealerships had apparently solved that.

However, it's kind of too narrow, even if longitudinally it has decent space. The price is about right, but the availability of the V6 seems to be close to nil, at least when considering the number of choices...

But I think it looks pretty sharp, even if the tail lights are on the goofy side, like the Altima's.

carguy58 · June 2003

I felt like Honda with the 96-97 Accord was pretty good looking. It was conservative looking but I thought the styling was very nicely done.

dindak · June 2003

gunit : They are advertising 03 GTs with sunroofs for C$24K (about U$17,300) up here. You can definitely negotiate more off that also. Deals galore on the 03s for sure.

oldsman : The Altima rear is awful. Those clear tail lights are major formage (cheeze). Mazda 6 has to be one of the best looking sedans out right now. I saw in the June Popular Mechanics a 2 door Regal may be on the way again. It's funny Buick would have a 2-door and not Pontiac? Picture they had looked good if it's anything close to what the final product will be.

gunit · June 2003

Dindak, good price on the GT. I like the extra 40 horse of the GTP better, esp when passing at highway spds. Very good.

Pontiac still has all of it's 2 doors, EXCEPT the Grand Prix line which is redundant. Though sales on the 2 door Grand Prix did drop every year from 1997-2002, 2002 was the worst year for 2door sales. Sales on 2 door cars are not what they once were anyway. There is less and less of them today. I thought the new GTO would have more style then it does. At least it's got the power.

I have heard that if Monte Carlo sales don't pick up, it might be out the door in a few yrs too.

With regards to the 2002 and on Altima, you either LOVE or HATE the rear tail lights. My wife and I happen to love them.. it's all opinion. I think the altima looks alot better then the new Overpriced Maxima.

I almost bought a 2002 Altima over the GTP... problem was no rebate on the Altima, they wanted near MSRP on it when it came out. A Altima is NOT worth $28k MSRP loaded price.

dindak · June 2003

I don't see a lot of Monte Carlos around. It needs a better motor which it's getting next year. That said, coupe sales are all kind of small in the mid-size range. Don't see many Solaras or Accord coupes either. MC has a better interior than the Impala though.

03's are a screaming deals all around, GT or GTP.

gunit · June 2003

I've seen alot of Monte's around, more so then the Solara and Accord coupe.

Remember, the Solara and Accord coupe are NOT as roomy or big as the MC. The Accord coupe is smaller then the sedan. Where as with the old GTP, the coupe was the same car as the sedan. The Accord V6 coupe only has 12.5 cu gt trunk... ever sit in the backseat of one? ALot more cramped then a MC or GTP coupe.

It is about time GM puts the L67 Supercharged 3800 in the Monte and Impala, only 4 yrs later, but I guess better then never. Right about the time the Monte and Impala get the L67 as an option, GM has already introduced the Series 3 with 260 horse for the GTP. Why don't they put the 260 horse series 3 in the Monte and impala too?

So again the Monte and Impala Lose out. Only the old 240 horse Series 2 supercharged that came out for 1996.

The Monte SS is a real joke with only a 200 horse engine these past few years... the Monte Carlo Super Slow. The other joke being that a fully loaded 2003 Monte SS with only 200 horse goes for the same MSRP as a 2003 Loaded GTP with the 240 horse engine... So the Chevy buyers are really getting shafted.. no supercharger for the same price.. nice?

Not to mention the 2 door GTP looked so much better then ugly monte...my opinion of course.

Rumor has it that the Monte Carlo may be killed off if sales don't pickup in the next few yrs too..

I love 2 door cars, my opinion. I love these car commercials, where they advertise.. "Coupe Like styling" Well it is either a coupe or it isn't.. the coupe always looked better.

oldsman01 · June 2003

The Monte Carlo is a roomy coupe, but I'm just not hot on the styling. The 97-02 GP coupe was MUCH better lookimg. When they came out in 97, I wanted a GTP coupe badly. Two years ago when I was new car shopping, I almost bought a GTP coupe, but was a bit put off my the deletion of a few features the car had only a couple of years earlier and the cheap looking interior. I'd like to have seen a couple of the new model, but with the GTO coming, I can see no need for it. Especially with coupe sales slipping the way they do.

dindak · June 2003

Apparently (according to the June Popular Mechanics) there will likely be a 2 door Regal when the next generation appears in 2005. If they have a supped up version I'm sure it will sell very well.

I like the current MC styling but I can't have one with a little one.

gunit · June 2003

oldsman01 Why didn't you buy the GTP coupe back in 1997? Just curious. What did you buy instead?

Starting in 2001 is when GM took away the performance shift button and the automatic/digital dual zone climate control. Doesn't make sense to me, esp. the automatic climate control... Starting in 2003 GM made the H.U.D. an option on the GTP which was std in 2002 and they made ABS and Traction control options on the rest of the GP Line... where as they were std on all from 1997-2002...

Yes the interior is cheap looking on the 1997-2003 GTP. I have owned a 1997 and now a 2002, But the performance/handling and good looks and decent room more then make up for that, not to mention the H.U.D. one of my favorite featurs, too bad I can't get it on other cars. I laugh that my GTP has more features then my 2001 Infiniti I30t does... like steering wheel controls that light up at night, HUD, and dual climate control. Oh well. I only paid around $22k for my 2002 GTP fully loaded. For the $$ I can't see anything better.

Remember, the new GTO is more $$ then a GTP and replaces the Firebird/Transam as another 5.7L V8 rear drive car and Pontiac still makes coupes of the Sunfire & Grand Am...

It would have been nice to see a coupe of the new GTP, for me that negates ever buying one again.

gunit · June 2003

Dindak, The last good looking/cool Regal they made was the GNX/Grand national in 1987. I'm sure the new Regal will probably have the series 3 260 horse 3800.

In my opinion I thought the GTP coupe had much nicer styling then the MC. Also the MC SS was the same price of my GTP in 2002, MINUS the supercharger. Why pay the same for a MC SS with no supercharger? When the GTP was available? To me the Monte should never have had the SS on it, unless it had the motor to back it up. At least Chevy waited to put the SS on the impala until it had the supercharger.

You can have a MC with a little one... I had just had my first, little WILL on 3/5/03, he is now 3 months old, and I have no problem at all putting him in the 2002 GTP coupe. Esp with the right front seat sliding forward.

I refuse to ever drive a minivan/suv/station wagon, not for me.. I'll take my coupes thanx.

Pontiac Grand Prix - 2000-2005

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