Pontiac Grand Prix - 2000-2005

dindak · June 2003

rich : Nothing is really selling that well these days, even the "hot" Mazda 6 had incentives slapped on it soon after it arrived.

gunit : You have obviously never driven a 3.5L. It was as refined as anything in it's time and just as reliable. Why do you keep insinuating that the 3.5L was somehow not reliable??? I've been on the Intrigue board for 4 years and I have never heard of 1 engine failure. Please give me a source of your misinformation.

And FYI.. The SE came with the 3.8 as an option. Most retail cars had it, the 3.1L was for rentals.

baker20 · June 2003

My girlfriend has a 2000 GTP. She has told me that according to the owner's manual the supercharger oil needs to be checked. The car has 40,000 miles. Is this a big deal to check?

I drive a Camaro, but just to throw in my two cents.... I think the 2004 Grand Prix is much improved. It does still fall short of some of it's competition. I would like to see a more attractive and sporty wheel option for it. A nice 17" to 18" five star pattern of some sort would look great to me. Anyway, if anyone could help out on the supercharger oil, I'd much appreciate it.

midlifecrisis · June 2003

The problem with the 04 backseats is that the passenger seat has a very hard thick plastic backing, which really hurts the leg room in the back. This seat was designed to be flipped horizontal and used as a sort of "desk" for the driver. Plus the back seats both fold flat, so the angle is bad and the seat bottom sits really low. And there are no back seat cupholders, which is a real no-no these days.

I ordered a fusion orange GT2 last week, and it should be delivered around mid-July. Right now there is a $1000 rebate and the program ends July 7th. Should be interesting to see what happens after the 7th. Maybe the incentive will go up!

gunit · June 2003

I know on my 1997 GTP and now 2002 GTP the backseats are very LOW to the ground, probably to increase headroom at 5'11 I have plenty of headroom, but you sit too low and other then that they are ok.

Dindak, I drove the 3.5 in 2001 in the Aurora redesign and was NOT impressed, not enough power...esp for that heavy of a car. The 4.0 was much faster.. and more refined/quieter and got almost the same highway gas mileage. The 3.0L V6 in my Infiniti felt more refined then the 3.5 in the aurora that year, 2001, more smooth at high rpms.. and more power, i30t is lighter car. I never said or meant to convey the 3.5 was unreliable or a bad engine. If I did I apologize. It is a great engine that is more refined then the 3800, I 100% agree with you, I just happen to like the 3800 S/C better, esp the 280 ft lbs torque at 3600rpm, my opinion. Everybody like something different.

gunit · June 2003

Dindak, What year did they finally start putting the GT/GTP nose on the SE? 2000 or 2001? Those 1997-1999 SE's had that ugly nose on them.... my opinion. The GT/GTP just looked better with the dual exhaust rear, and better nose. Everytime I see an SE it just reminds me of a rental car... Although rental car company's rent the GT too... I rented one up in Milwaukee in 2000, a red 4 door GT. I don't think rental company's ever rented the GTP though... Especially not the coupe..

My only complaint is that the GTP looks tdentical to the GT, other then the badging on the lower front of the front doors. They should have had more distinction for the $3k price difference... oh well.

I remember the one 3.1 SE I was given as a loaner back in 1997 or '98 for work on my 1997, I think it only had about 160 horse!! Very weak...

dindak · June 2003

Aurora was a heavier car but it still did 0-60 in a respectable 7.5 seconds. That said, my priority is not 0-60, if it was I may have got a GTP. I prefer midrange power and smoothness.

The SE was nice with the old nose, I obviously liked it or I wouldn't have bought it. We had the 3.8L with alloys. T-boned a car going through a red light so there wasn't much left of the front end of it.

gunit · June 2003

Dindak, The Aurora did around 7.5 seconds with the 4.0L V8 which is good, was in the 8.5-9.0 range with the 3.5L V6 which isn't enough for that kind of car/price range.

The GTP has more midrange power then then the Intrigue and faster 40-60 mph passing test and should be, more power. When they tested the Buick Park Avenue Ultra 3800 S/C against the Aurora V8, the Buick beat it in every acceleration test, 0-60, 40-60 and 1/4 mile. You are right the Intrigue is more refined then the GTP, we all like dif cars for dif reasons.

BTW, the Intrigue looks alot better then the Accord/Camry/Taurus, stands out more too. I always like the Intrigue looks.. though the best was my 1995 aurora, I thought that was the best looker, better looking then my GTP though some called it OVERSTYLED.. but everybody has an opinion. I really liked the Buick Rivieria, but you couldn't get the 4.0L V8 in it, only the 3800 s/c back in 1995. Came close to buying it but opted for the Aurora. again the Rivieria out accelerated my 1995 aurora in all tests too, 0-60, 40-60 and 1/4 with its old pushrod V6.. go figure... The Aurora had 10 more horse too... But Rivieria had more torque... people forget about torque... sometimes more important then horsepower rating.

Any injuries after the crash? Just curious to know how the GP crashtested.

They gave the GP a poor side crash rating though. Something I do not understand is how the Impala and Monte scored better in crash tests then the GP when they are on the same W body platform? I think the Impala&Monte were 5 star rated and the GP 4 star?

dan165 · June 2003

rich, I called my salesman, he said there was no such offer. It must be a U.S. offer only. I paid cash for the car since I had the money and investing it seems to yield nothing these days anyway. ;-)

gunit, My GT is fast enough, most people want a good car with respectable power. The GTP has lots of power, but most people don't need that much. I know I didn't want to spent the extra $$ for it.

oldsman01 · June 2003

I always liked the first generation Aurora and actually considered looking for a low mileage 98 or 99 model when I bought the Intrigue two years ago. The trouble was finding one in the color I wanted. I like those cars the best in dark colors and most that were on the market were white. With Olds resale being pathetic these days, I sometimes wonder what one could get a nice, low mileage 99 model for. The 01 Aurora was nice and probably dynamically superior to the old model(it was also lighter) but it just lacked something the old model had. I did read a review somewhere on the 01 Aurora 3.5 and it did 0-60 in 7.9 which is about .02 slower than the fastest times I've seen an Intrigue do. The V6 Aurora was only 100 or so pounds heavier than the Intrigue. The V8 model was the one that weighed around 3800 lbs and the first gen model was about 4000 lbs. I've never driven a Nissan with the 3.5 but have read reviews that it is an impressive engine. The 3.5 liter GM V6 was pretty impressive itself. It won't move off the line like a 3800(and especially a S/C 3800) but once above 3000 rpms it comes on like a freight train. As the tach climbs above 3000 it literally feels as if a turbo or something kicks in as the car just picks up and goes. And it will keep going all the way to the 125 mph top speed limiter as I engaged it a couple of times(don't do this at home kids)on a road trip last fall.

dindak · June 2003

gunit : GP held up remarkably well in spite of it's fair crash test rating. Not a scratch on either of us and the front crumpled as designed. As for passing power, the GTP is not much faster if at all than the Intrigue in the 40-60 range.

dan : GT2 is all I would get also. I love cars but I don't need excessive 0-60 speed, I have a family and just want a peppy competent good handling sedan.

Oldsman : Can't wait to see what the new 3.6L will do in the RDV and CTS.

gunit · June 2003

Dan165, I never said that the GT wasn't fast, it does a 8 sec 0-60 run which is fully respectable and is almost as fast as the Intrigue 3.5. For me that isn't fast enough, I paid less for my 2002 GTP then I did for my 1997GTP, both cars purchased new, with help from the $3k GM rebate of course. It's not bad to buy the same car 5 yrs later for less.. that is quite good.

Oldsman01, My 1995 Aurora was BLACK with the Beige Leather interior, nice combo, fully loaded with the Autobahn package which was just a higher final drive ratio and higher spd rated tires and I think 130mph governed spd? The only NEGATIVE on the 1995-1999 Aurora was the HANDLING.. which was a bit boaty/floaty. It was more suited to highway driving, and was also very NOSE HEAVY.. it weighed 3967 lbs, more then a crown vic. Also I felt the brakes were so-so, 0-60 was about 8 seconds. Resale value is HORRENDOUS on the Aurora, esp the 1995-1999 generation, I have experience with that. On the good side it makes for a very good used car purchase. The new Aurora of 2001 and on handles MUCH BETTER, but doesn't have as much as that stand out look. GM themselves admitted to down styling the car, citing that alot of people thought it was too overstyled and perhaps they lost sales because of that. It never sold well... only 20,000 - 25,000 per year. The new 2001 doubled the sales, but that is also because they put the 3.5 in as base which lowered the price. Sorry, but the 3.5 Aurora is underpowered... the best rating I ever saw for the Aurora was 7.6 seconds for the V8. I have seen as high as 8.5+ on the 3.5. The Aurora is about 200 pounds heavier then the intrigue.

That is a charachteristic of all DOHC engines, they are avg to weak until they hit 3000rpm. My 4.0L '95 aurora was the same way.. actually once you hit 4000rpm it really got moving. Same thing with my I30t DOHC.. once you hit 3000 it will keep going till it redlines. I like the 3800 s/c feel better, because there is power at any rpm. From a dead stop you can lay rubber like an old muscle car with the TCS turned off, of course don't try that at home either. Or at 100mph if I nail it, its still has great power.. It's hard to compare my car beause its been moddified with extra power. The GTP is easier/cheaper to modify then the Intrigue, there are more parts to modify the 3800 then there are the 3.5.

dindak · June 2003

I'd buy a 3.5 Aurora before a GTP. As you said, different strokes for different folks. I prefer the luxury and refinement over the raw horses.

That said, I would go for a GT2 today if I was buying as I can't likely afford a GTP anyway.

gunit · June 2003

Personally for me, After 1999 the Aurora lost its OVERSTYLISH as some have called it, stand out appearance.. though the new one does handle much better. and the 3.5 Aurora didn't do anything for me, not enough power.. the 4.0L on the other hand was quite nice, but needed more horse. 250 horse from 4.0L was acceptable back in 1995, same as the LS400 then, but not by today's stanards... their are V6's making more then the aurora V8 today...

Besides they don't make the 3.5 Aurora anymore, only the 4.0L and I think 2003 was the last yr of the aurora? Not sure.

oldsman01 · June 2003

Actually, the 95 MY Aurora sold around 47K copies. The 3K+ price hike that followed in 96 slowed things down to the 25K range. At $32K the 95 Aurora was quite a deal with a 32 valve mini-Northstar V8. I'm hoping Cadillac will keep prices in line with the CTS and not think that a successful first year means you can hike prices the way they did with the second year Aurora. Speaking of prices, my fully loaded Intrigue GLS listed for about a grand more than a fully loaded GTP did back in 01. Yet with the discounts(as I bought after the Olds phase-out annoucement) I got the car for less than I would have been able to have gotten the GTP for. And the Olds had a better warranty(which my particular example has needed). I knew resale would be hurt and had I not gotten the car as cheap as I did, I might have gone with the GP. Speaking of the GP, back in 97 when I first started eye balling the then new GP, a fully loaded GTP listed for around $25K. And this was with features that were no longer available in 01 and are still missing on the new model. If GM would price the car at those more realistic levels and not fool with rebates and discounts, the car would probably sell even better.

oldsman01 · June 2003

Yep, 03 was the last year for the Aurora 4.0. My guess is production has already stopped. It is a nice car and can probably be had for a steal, but unless I get tempted by a cheap, low mileage 99 in a color I like, the Intrigue is the last Olds for me. My problem is the service department network. I've had mine to two different dealers for service and neither one can fix all the problems. And they are slow as hell when it comes to getting parts. You would think the parts were coming from Germany or better yet Iraq, it takes them so long. My car was out of commission for 16 days several months ago and all it needed was a power steering hose. Thats my big beef with Olds right now.

gunit · June 2003

Oldsman01, That is why I bought the 1995 Aurora new in early 1995, because of the deal and What I got for $33k, esp the DOHC 250horse 4.0L V8. It was a great deal, too pad the resale was next to nothing 6 yrs later. The relability of my Aurora went down hill in 1999 and 2000.

Actually the 2002 GTP has the BOSE Stereo and Onstar, which the 1997 GTP didn't. The radio was garbage back in 1997. There are also alot more standard features on the 2002 GTP that were optional back in 1997.

My 1997 GTP cost me more then my 2002 GTP did, go figure... again the $3k rebate... I just get a laugh out of that. Also the 1997GTP had alot of problems, I can attest to them... but the drivetrain never had a problem, everything else... In 1997 I paid $24k for my GTP. In 2002 I paid $22k in change.... total.. so I put the differenfec/rebate back into mods....

The 5yr 60k warranty is nice on the olds... tood bad my GTP doesn't have it. I bought the ext warranty being as though I will have the car for the next 5-6 yrs.

gunit · June 2003

Welcome to the problems I had with my 1995 Aurora. It was pretty much trouble free until about 1999, all 3 olds dealers I went to, could never properly fix the problem or find it.. only finally on a 2nd or 3rd trip/complain to the dealer did they finally find/fix the thing. They treated me like crap... despite buying their flagship car... And the whole oil burning issue on my 1995, which they would NOT or ever find a fix for , put a sour taste in my mouth, another reason I bought the Infiniti in 2001 instead of another aurora...

ruski · June 2003

hey I used to have a '96 supercharged Riviera - it was a great car.

stubborn1 · June 2003

When I bought my 2k GP GT, I test drove the Intrigue also. That 3.5 was a pretty sweet motor above 3000rpm. It was a pretty tough decision on what to purchase - I test drove each car 3 times. I finally decided on the GP because the pricing was about $1,000 better and the car had more interior room up front. I still don't regret my choice.

That being said, I hope the people at GM take a hard look at giving the option of a manual transmission on a mid sized car. And none of that auto-stick crap, I want the third pedal and a real shifter. Its a small market, but real sports cars have manual transmissions.

richm4 · June 2003

I saw a Fusion Orange GP on the street today. It's not exactly a color I would ever get, but it did look pretty cool.

orwoody · June 2003

I also saw the Fusion orange today while having an oil change on my Yukon. It looked pretty good. Like richm4 it's not the color I would choose first, but I think Pontiac will sell a few. I saw an 04 Maxima in their orange and I think the GP looks better in orange.
I also re-sat in the back seat again. I think its not great but a bit better than previous generation(I've owned a 2000 GTP and currently have a 2003 GT) Its definitely not a seat for long distance travel unless you're a kid.
I think the 2004 is quite a step up from the 1997-2003, but there are still a few things that don't appeal to my tastes. Not to say Pontiac won't make some updates/changes over the next few years.

04gtpws6 · June 2003

I've been lurking around these forums for years because I've been to lazy to register, and I hate an assigned password that I can never remember.

I thought maybe I'd better say something because it looks like I'm the only one with a 2004 grand prix (GTP-WS6 in sport red metallic. I bought the very first one that came in to my dealer, and I've had the car for almost two months now. There was a day when I'd wait for a couple of years after a model change before I'd buy a new GM car. I've had such good luck with the last several GM cars that got brazen enough to buy one built in the second week of production.

The lows: 1) Hard low back seat bottom 2) amazingly firm ride, not harsh, but very very firm 3) Faux coupe styling makes it hard to see out the rear quarter

The highs: 1) As the magazines all say, virtually zero torque steer 2) Vibrationless engine at idle 3) Good firm supportive front seats 4) Less wind noise than any car I've owned 5) strong low end torque 6) can't hear the supercharger at all 7) excellent fit and finish 8) pretty decent interior quality for a GM car 9) No niggling little GM new car problems.

My 2004 is replacing a 2000 Deville DTS and will be used primary as a work car. I'll also do some drag racing with like I do all my cars. I got this car because my lease was up on my DTS and I couldn't wait until the CTSv was available or even the 04 CTS with the new 3.6L. I wasn't about to get another Deville because I could get DTS exactly like the one I have now, and that's no fun. I will not, under any circumstances, buy Japanese and I've heard plenty from everyone I know that has/had a VW Passat. In fact a neighbor bought a 2003 Passat the same weekend I bought the GP, and hers has been back at the dealer for problems 4 times now and mine has never been back. I didn't really see all that much else in the $30,000 range I'd buy. I still don't have the interior material quality that one would have with the Passat, but the 2004 is a big improvement over the old GPs. The 2004 is obviously built to a price point as everything is, but the compromises are acceptable to me. Pontiac got a lot of details right with this car. So far so good.

johnclineii · June 2003

Congratulations on your GP! And thanks for that very informative post!

From a Deville DTS to a GP! Wow.

ruski · June 2003

what good is a great interior if the car spends a lot of time at the shop?

04gtpws6 · June 2003

I've had a 93 STS, 95 STS, 97 Cooncours and the 2000 DTS so that's enough for right now. I currently have the 04 grand prix, 63 grand prix, and a C5 vert so I do have a decent variety. I decided, first, that I don't want a new one just like the one I'm getting rid of, and secondly, I want to put my money into collectables such as a 61 Pontiac Ventura 389 tri-power bubble top and maybe a 65 Riviera GS. GM made so much junk in the late 70s and 80s that we forget just how nice the early and mid 60s GM full size cars were. I want to own a few again. However, it is my completely restored 63 grand prix http://hometown.aol.com/scotth3886/myhomepage/personal.html and http://hometown.aol.com/scotth3886/index.html that made me think of a new one. GM's support of the old car hobby paid dividends.

dindak · June 2003

I would consider it but I know my conservative wife would veto that choice so we would have to go with a "normal" color.

04gtpws6 : Congrats on the new GP. Great pictures!!

04gtpws6 · June 2003

Thanks! I need to get a digital camera so I can post some decent pics. The second link's photos were done by the same photographer that did the 350Z ad and we are in the same location down in the LA harbor. So forgive the artsy fartsy appearance.

Had the fusion orange been the first color that came in I would have done it. I've seen one that color and it works quite well on this car

gunit · June 2003

04GTPWS6, what kind of drag racing? A pulley will add 30-40 horse alone on the '97-03 geneartion GTP. Not sure on the mods for the Series 3 3800 yet, though probably similar. My 2002 is tuned to around 300 horse and the 1/4 in the low 14's. Yeah, my modded 2002 GTP has LESS Torque steer then the STOCK Maxima/I35/V6 Altima, which if you ever drove them, have HORRENDOUS torque steer almost to the point of being dangerous in certain driving situations... IE wet pavement.

Thanks to FWD I can still drive in the snow and pay 20% less insurance then Mustang/Transam owners. Yes, the '04 is more refined, with better seats, but NO COUPE? that kills it on my list. The 2 door GTP looked more stylish then the 4 door, my opinion . The coupe was 20% of the Grand Prix sales, doesn't make sense..

I've heard that the 2004 GP and Max aren't selling that well, mabye the resession? The Max is too much $$, $32k loaded for a Nissan, when one can buy a Infiniti for the same price range with a longer warranty and free loaner cars. To each their own.

I am also leary of first year GM cars, I had a 1995 aurora and 1997 GTP... they were problematic. My 2002 has been the first GM in a while that has been TROUBLE FREE, knock on wood in my 9 month now.

Historically, especially on the 1997-2003 GP, the 2nd or 3rd year GM corrects problems, IE condensation in the headlights, water on the passenger front, windshield wiper motors, NO Traction control, noisy Delco ABS system that was loud in 1997 etc.. stuff that plagued the 1997 GTP, including mine. For 1998 GM utiilzed BOSCH for the ABS/Traction and it became quieter more refined, that was a big improvement.. the ABS in my 1997 sounded like a system from the early '90's loud and intrusive. The Best radio in the 1997 was garbage as well. Thats why I will never buy a 1st year GM car again.

Besides with NO more GTP coupe that means I will never be buying another one. I will have to look at other 2 door Powerfull/Roomy FWD coupes for 2006. if any exist. None that I know of, except the UGLY Monte SS. Rumor has it GM may cancel that if sales don't pick up as well. Besides the Monte is too ugly for me.. GTP coupe looked way better.

dindak · June 2003

The 97 had very few issues and that was 5-6 years ago. The new GP is built in the best plant in NA so I personally would have no problem buying one out of the gate.

ab348 · June 2003

Don't confuse the GM that built cars like the '63 GP with today's GM. They share only one thing - the name. GM no longer cares about making cars, just about making money. The soul and passion for style and performance is long dead. Instead we have atrocities like the Aztek and interiors like the '04 GP with uglycloth (TM Regd.). GM used to know how to build great cars, but no one there now remembers that.

dindak · June 2003

If you knew anyone who worked at a car plant (any maker) you would understand how incredibly passionate they are about the cars they build. Living out east, I'm sure you haven't got a clue though.

carguy58 · June 2003

I think GM is passionate about reviving itself. They made alot of mistakes in the 90's with Pontiac(especaially), Cadillac, and Buick. i mean the 60's were a different time. How can you compare 2003 to 1963 in the car market? There's alot more saturation now. I'm no big fan of GM but I graduated High School in 1998 and GM's cars had no personality to them at that time. Finally, GM is doing something with Cadillac and looks like something with Pontiac too now. Buick needs to go. I remember when I was growing up in the 80's there was still alot of GM cars on the road. Somewhere around 1992-1993 is when things to started to change. Gm made alot bad product decisions in the early 90's and drove people away. The 80's were decent for GM. The 90's were not good at all for GM.

ab348 · June 2003

I'm not talking about the guys on the line that assemble them. I've been to GM plants and know what they're all about, the good and the bad. I'm talking about the management, the designers, the engineers, and especially the bean counters. The ones who have destroyed GM.

johnclineii · June 2003

http://www.dominionpost.com/a/autos/2003/06/15/ae/

ruski · June 2003

this one too complains about the [non-existing] cladding in the previous version of Grand Prix. These journalists are so stupid.

regfootball · June 2003

although the cladding on the 97-03 GP was minimal, it was still cladding. You can say it was cladding because it wasn't just ground efx panel below the door, it was actual plastic cladding applied to the door as well.

oldsman01 · June 2003

That's a pretty neat sampling of cars you have(or have had). Must be interesting going from a DTS to a GTP, but if I guess that also says something about the new GP. I'm still leaning toward an 04 CTS with the 3.6 liter engine, but haven't ruled the GP out completely. Did you lease your GP? If so, when your lease is up in a few years and if your ready to move back up to a Cadillac, the next generation STS should be out. I'm looking forward to seeing what it will offer.

carguy58, from a quality standpoint the 80s were worse than the 90s for GM. The problem in the early 90s was very bland and outdated product offering. I remember in the 91-92 time frame when alot of GM's big sellers were redesigned(i.e. Park Avenue, LeSabre, Ninety-Eight, Eighty-Eight, Bonneville, Caprice, Achieva, etc.) thinking that if I were buying one of those type of cars, I'd rather own the previous generation because the new ones just weren't very appealing.

dindak · June 2003

ruski/reg : There was no cladding on the GP that isn't on almost any other midsize car. Thin plastic strips are not cladding.

ab348 : So Bob Lutz isn't passionate about cars? The guys who designed the Corvette or the CTS aren't passionate about cars? Give me a break! Using a blanket statement like that is just plain wrong! You may not like a the GP but it performs and you can't deny that.

oldsman : I think GM definitely lost it's way in the past but the last 5 years have changed my mind about the company. I just hope it stays that way.

midlifecrisis · June 2003

I too believe the 80's were the worst for GM. It actually started in the late 1970's. My wife had a 1977 Buick Century, which was a full-size car, powered by a down-sized 6 cylinder engine. It was a terrible car. Various family members also had 1980's Chevy Citation and the Pontiac version also. These were just plain bad cars.

I think GM started getting its act together in the mid 90's and has continued to gather steam. I bought a Chevy Avalanche 15 months ago and it hasn't had a single problem except for a little bit of moisture in a fog light. The truck is just amazing.

I have a 99 Grand Am GT. This car has had a few minor problems (mostly interior), fixed under warranty. I'm hoping my new Grand Prix GT2 has fewer problems.

Believe it or not, it was my wife who insisted I get the fusion orange color. She was not happy with the sport red - too burgundy for her. So I had to order my car because there were none around on dealer's lots with the options I wanted.

3 weeks and counting.....

gunit · June 2003

<<<The 97 had very few issues and that was 5-6 years ago.>>>

Dindak, Says who? My 1997 had many problems, but I still loved it anyway and thankgod they were mostly covered under warranty !! not to mention that the 1997 GP is on consumer reports used car list to avoid, the only model listed. Go to www.grandprix.net and click Grand Prix problems. These are problems reported on by owners of 1997-1999 Grand Prixs and many of those problems were FIXED for later year Grand Prixs... This is a pretty large list of problems. I can attest to them, I had alot. But GM did fix them for later year models.

On my 1997 GTP Coupe....Tire Rods went bad at 25k miles, never happened again, alternator and water pump replaced before 30k miles, one of the tire/abs sensors fell off, had to argue to get it covered under warranty. Vibration when the car was in reverse os sometimes idling. the brake line was too close to the firewall? Both headlights replaced due to moisture in them, heat shield on the catalytic converter loose, rattling, pistons that hold up the trunk went bad at only 1 yr old, automatic twinight headlights on/off sensor replaced 3x before they got it right, they would come on and off in bright daylight. Loose clips on interior door panels, rattling sounds.. apparently this is a problem of all '97'03 GP's, Oil leak at 50k miles, valve cover gaskets went bad, covered by ext. warranty, A/C Drain had to be unclogged once a year, otherwise leaked into the car, various times repairing rattles.. the W body of 1997-2003 is a RATTLE BOX compared to comparable import cars, AC Delco battery only lasted 2 yrs...

Otherwise I like the car and bought another in 2002. So far, knock on wood, troublefree.

gunit · June 2003

The most reliable GM car I ever owned was my 1986 Olds 442. Bought new in 1986, I sold it in 2000 with 106k miles. It only had 3 problems in 14 yrs.. A/C leak, new exhaust and oil leaks from the valve cover gaskets which was a 307 V8 issue, when I sold it in 2000 every option including A/C worked. The original paint was still in great shape, not bad for a 1986. You either a get a good car or bad one.. it's like rolling dice with GM.

The worst one I ever bought was a 1985 Olds Ciera with the optional 3.8L V6 that yr, many problems.. engine would accelerate/rev by itself in gear sometimes with the A/C on, talke about dangerous.. the notorious bad/peeling paint. unloaded it in 1992.

dan165 · June 2003

Midlfe, Congratulations on the coming 04 GP. Let us know when you get it. 80's were bad, we had 2 Accords in that time and I wouldn't consider GM back then.

ab348, How the seats in the 04 GP equate to a lack of soul, performance and passion I will never understand??

Gunit, Our 02 Bravada has been very good although it had 2 recall visits which I did with oil changes. Otherwise trouble free. GP is trouble free now for it's first couple of months. So far so good.

oldsman01 · June 2003

My father had an 84 Pontiac 6000 which was an ABSOLUTE piece of junk. After that car, he swore GM off. Or at least until I convinced him to test drive a 96 Aurora nearly a decade later. Heck, after the 6000 he started buying Chryslers so you know it had to be a bad car. Anything and everything went wrong on that car. I've had a little better luck with older GM cars. Prior to the Intrigue, I had an 89 Olds Touring Sedan(sporty version of the Ninety-Eight) which I bought used from someone my father worked with. Despite being a product of the 80s and having nearly every electronic feature possible then, it was a pretty trouble free car. Drove it through the latter part of my college years and put it had well over 100K on it when I got the Intrigue. The series I 3800 V6 never used a drop of oil, never leaked a drop of coolant, and never failed to start(except when the battery lost a cell). The car had some squeaks and rattles by the time I traded it, but then again it was 12 years old. Mechanically it was old shcool(rear drum brakes, OHV engine, 4 speed non-electronically controlled transmission) but was not a bad car. My feeling has been that prior to the 97 W-bodies and 99 Alero and Grand Am, the only thing GM had that was any good were their large and thus higher end offerings. Simply put, prior to the Intrigue(or the 97 and up GP) I would not have considered a GM car in this class.

carguy58 · June 2003

Probably 1996-1997. I thought 1991-1995 were really bad years for GM. GM had did score hits in the 80's with the 88 Grand Prix, 6000, and mid 80's Grand AM. The 92 Grand AM and 92 Boneville were not styled very well and turned off buyers. Mid 80's-early 90's Boneville looked very compact on the exterior.

ab348 · June 2003

Gunit, you have to remember that according to some here GM has never made a car that was less than perfect.

Dan, nobody who worked for GM in the 60s would let uglycloth (TM Regd) *near* any of their cars. Now according to Lutz it is "richer" fabric than what went before. Excuse me if I question whether the man's much-vaunted image actually has any substance after a comment like that.

gunit · June 2003

Dan165, My 2002 GTP coupe has been PERFECT & Troublefree, knock on wood since buying it NEW in September '02. Not even a squeak or rattle, YET. I just hit the 7k mile mark. I'm hoping for the best.

AB348, Although GM has improved... Squeaks and rattles still plague the W body of 1997 and on, more so then the import competition. I'm sure it's only a matter of time before they surface in my 2002 GTP. I will hope for the best though.

The best GM rattle and squeak free car I even owned was my 1995 aurora which even in 2001 was squeak/rattle free... i think it used the same platform of the caddilacs? Right now the best rattle/squeak free car I have had is my 2001 Infiniti I30t

The oil burning issue really burned me on that car. 2 quarts a month. someone has told me that the early Aurora and Caddy Northstar V8's burned oil at higher mileage? something to do with the limp home feature if you ran out of coolant? But supposedly the oil burnign was fixed by 1998? I wonder if any one can shed any light on that topic?

b4z · June 2003

Your Cutlass was RWD which makes a difference in
durability. Plus that car had a larger rearend than even the camaros of that era.
I have a friend who put 380,000 miles on their RWD cutlass.

gunit · June 2003

b4z, I have heard that before, but, How does RWD make a difference in durability? I have friends with Honda Accord & Toyota Camry & Honda Civic FWD cars that have gone 200K plus trouble free miles too. In fact my neighbor has a 1993 camry with 140k miles , never seen a repair shop for other then maintenance. Still sounds/looks good. No smoke.

That said, today's FWD cars probably last just as long as the RWD cars in regular driving..

dindak · June 2003

You said "GM no longer cares about making cars, just about making money. The soul and passion for style and performance is long dead".

I think Dan is right on. Performance and styling are right on with the 04 even if the seats don't suit you. Your statement is off base. There is so much raw performance that one could argue they didn't spend enough time on the details, but GP performance on it's own is better than ever and much of it's competition for that matter.

dindak · June 2003

We have a 3 1/2 yr old Intrigue (also a W) and it's completely rattle free. Very well screwed together though the fit and finish is not quite up to Honda/Toyota over all. I suspect the 04 GP would be similar and from what I've seen the fit and finish is definitely better on the 04 GP than any previous W.

Pontiac Grand Prix - 2000-2005

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