Pontiac Grand Prix - 2000-2005

dindak · June 2003

"There is NO substantial proof", here are some studies for you..

http://www.ibiblio.org/rdu/DRLs/studies.htm

"You said your SE GP was totalled, obviously DRLS didn't help you avoid that accident did they?"

Come on gunit, you know as well as I do what the answer to that is. DRLs reduce accident rates and make others more visible, they dont prevent accidents!

"it is ILLEGAL to drive with your fog lights"

DRLs are not fog lights. They never are.

"I will not comment on the DRLS anymore, do what you want"

LOL. Ok.

montanafan · June 2003

Turning on the Fog lights in a 2004 Grand Prix will turn on the Parking Lights. This cuts the power to the DRLs and uses them a the front parking lamps. If the residents of Northern New Jersey are all rewiring their cars then thats the answer.

tek3 · June 2003

I just bought a GTP last week. Are there any other new '04 owners on here? Any comments or complaints yet? I've heard about a problem with the headlights being loose and "bouncing" or "dancing". I haven't noticed it on my car yet.

evandro · June 2003

Yes, DRL does use more fuel, but how much more? Let's try to estimate it: both lamps at reduced intensity use about 50W, or 100W rounding up. That's approximately 1/7HP. A car going a 60MPH typically needs 25 to 30HP to maintain that speed. Thus, with DRL, a car would need 0.6% more gas. Assuming that a typical mid-size gets 30MPG at 60MPH, with DRL the consumption would be 29.8MPG. Therefore, DRL reduces the mileage by an amount that's inferior to the variations due to temperature and altitude.

And when GM may be fined if it doesn't comply with CAFE, they fight for each and every yard in their EPA tests...

As for the new GP having the DRL in the fog lights, you're mistaken. The DRL shares the same assembly as the fog lights, but have separate reflectors and bulbs. IOW, they look like fog lights but they aren't. ;-)

evandro · June 2003

The Trailblazer's DRLs are separate, parking lights, not the low or the high beams. If your neighbor's Trailblazer has a headlight burnt, it's not because of DRL.

But I've seen a lot of Silverados with only the right DRL on... Something fishy there...

About HID, I'm a little wary of replacement costs: $500 each! I've seen good headlights designs doing better than some HID-equipped cars around town...

mrrogers · June 2003

I took delivery of a silver 2004 GT1 last week. I have had no problems with headlights bouncing. I have the dark pewter cloth interior. Some people have mentioned that they do not favor the pattern on the cloth seats. My previous car was a 2001 Buick Regal LS, and I admit I like the grey houndstooth pattern used with that cloth interior. I like the Pontiac seats over the Buick seats in terms of support and comfort. Both cars were built in the Oshawa, Canada assembly plant, and I would rate the build quality high for both cars. I drove the Regal 77,000 miles with the maintenance limited to lubricants, filters, and tire rotations.
The Regal had a strut bar under the hood connecting both front struts. The GT1 does not have the strut bar. Does your GTP have one?

dialn24 · June 2003

I bought a silver GTP about a month and a half ago. I have enjoyed the car quite a bit and would definitely recommend it to someone that is considering one. As far as any problems or complaints, I haven't noticed any problems whatsoever. I am still trying to get used to the HUD system in the car though, but that's just because I have never had a car that has one in it. Other then that, the car is a blast to drive and I think looks great with the chrome wheels on it.

Good luck to you with your new GTP.

Take care

orwoody · June 2003

From personal experience the DRL have saved me from a couple of accident; primarily people pulling into traffic - they took a second look with the DRLs and I am sure they would have proceeded pulling out if my vehicle didn't have the DRLs.

The last 5/6/7 vehicles we have owned; with the exception of a Volvo V70 XC, have exceeded the EPA highway estimates. Can't really say about city since we rarely have a tank with only city miles on it. My 2000 GTP consistently got 30 mpg on the highway doing 65-75 mph. I haven't gotten a full tank on the highway with my 2003 GT, but mixed driving (70/30 hwy/city) I'm consistently getting 25 mpg, which make me think it exceeds EPA estimates....
And I ain't no old Sunday type driver....

orwoody · June 2003

I just returned from business trip to Boston area. I had a rental 2004 GT for the week. Although I didn't get a chance to really go out and "drive" it the way I would have liked, it was a pretty good experience for the several hundred miles I did put on it running around.
What I found was some of my earlier impressions from the auto show and a short test drive have changed a bit.
What I liked:
- The seats - very comfy, I forgot how well cloth "grips" you and gives you a bit more confidence pushing hard into the corners...
- The ride and handling are improved over the previous gen. It had the same Goodyear Eagle LS tires as my 2003 GT so the comparison was quite equal.
- Much reduced road and wind noise.
- Trunk is much more accessible and functional.

I found that the "questionable" cloth pattern sort of grew on me. It didn't bother me as much after a day or so...funny though it did remind me of the pattern is some office furniture or industrial carpets I've seen...

What bothers me:
- I hate to admit it, the longer I had the car, the more the hard plastic on the dash, console... looked worse. It was too shiny, had some parting flash still on areas and the grain pattern was offensive compared to some of the other parts. It really does this car injustice.
- NO GLOVE BOX - not sure what they call that drop down - a shelf?
- The bright RED DIC. It was distracting and you can't adjust the brightness. Overall I found the DIC on the GP pretty worthless.
- The radio and climate control worked fine but the faces and printing on them looked real cheap. Again a real injustice.

I didn't ride in the back seat, but it isn't the greatest. I have sat in worse.
And yes, I have sent my comments to Pontiac.

tek3 · June 2003

mrrogers: The GTP does not have any bar between the two strut towers. However, I believe all GP levels have various sized anti-roll bars on the front and rear. I chose the parchment color leather interior and would highly recommend that anyone looking at the GP.

dialn24: I've never had HUD before either. It does take some getting used to but I like the feature alot.

orwoody: The hard plastic was my biggest complaint after seeing the car at the auto show. But since I bought the car it isn't as offensive as I first thought. Still could be better. I agree the glove box is pretty silly. It's still twice as big as the one in my Cutlass Supreme. I have to disagree on the DIC, however. It has some useful features and I love all the information it provides.

ab348 · June 2003

Thanks for the honest review. You seem to have hit many of the same points I noted about the car. It just could have been so much better with relatively little effort by GM if they had used some decent materials and got less gimmicky with the interior.

gunit · June 2003

<<But I've seen a lot of Silverados with only the right DRL on... Something fishy there...>>

There is alot of them in my area with that one light on, is that GM Design feature? Hope not...

<<About HID, I'm a little wary of replacement costs: $500 each! I've seen good headlights designs doing better than some HID-equipped cars around town...>>

HID bulbs are NOT $500 to replace and they last longer then Halogen. Which non HID cars have better headlight designs then HID equipped cars? The '97-'03 GP has the most useless hi-beams I have ever used, the regular lamps aren't that great. By comparson the HID on my '01 I30t are the best headlights I have ever used. The '04 GTP should have had HID as an option just like the altima/max have had for years now.

gunit · June 2003

Montanafan, All the new 2004 GP's my area have the foglights on during the day, so is somebody rewiring these cars? It against the law in NJ to drive with your foglights on UNLESS its inclement weather. Strange

gunit · June 2003

Dindak, We can argue this over and over, I have seen studies that PRAISE DRLS and those that Shame it. So who do you believe then? 1/2 the studies are PRO DRLS and 1/2 are ANTI-DRLS, and when GM EPA rates it's cars the DRLS is shut down that is a fact. For every site that praises DRLS there is an anti DRLS site.

A better feature is the automatic sensor on certain cars that turns the headlights on when it gets dark enough out. Driving without headlights is more of a safety problem. I have seen many people, especially in parking garages or at dusk driving with no lights on.

richm4 · June 2003

Have had an 04 GTP since April and am happy but would have bought a CTS if I had to do it over again.

Highs:
Great engine and transmission
Great radio
Nice leather
Roomy interior and trunk

Lows:
Expensive compared to what you get with some other cars
Cheap cheap cheap plasticy interior
Low back seat
Harsh ride
Wiper stalk gets turned on accidentally very easily
Fit of moldings around carpeting was not installed very well

gunit · June 2003

The GTP engine is very loud and unrefined sounding above 3500rpm when compared to the Accord or maxima. But can't beat that 280 ft lbs torque at 3600rpm.

Notice Honda never mentions its torque rating of 212 at 5000rpm, but always mentions the 240 hp.

gunit · June 2003

The only knock on the '04 is the regualr 3800, still rated at only 200 horse since the Series 2 came out in 1995? In 8 yrs everybody else has increased their power? What is up with that?

Maxima, accord, altima have increased power 25-40% since 1997.

GP is still stuck on 200hp!! In 1997 it was fine, not in 2004.

Why did GM increase the GTP by 20 hp and not do anything with the regular one?

The GT does NOT have enough highway acceleration.

Do about 60 in the GT and put it to the floor, not much. The extra pwr of the GTP is much better.

vcjumper · June 2003

What was the price differential between the GTP and CTS at the time? About the harsh ride, do you have a Comp-G?

Interesting that more people who have driven the vehicle are saying how cheap the plastic interior is.

ruski · June 2003

once you get hooked on HUD, it is hard to drive other cars that don't have it.

tek3 · June 2003

To get a CTS with the same equipment as a loaded GTP one would have to pay mid $30's or better. Hard to say the CTS is a better choice at that price.

johnclineii · June 2003

I'll say it. The CTS at such a price is a much better deal than a loaded GTP. I bet it depreciates less as well, percentage-wise. Not to mention that Cadillac levels of service are much better than Pontiac ones.

carguy58 · June 2003

a black 04 GP yesterday(3rd one I have seen.) The overall shape of the car looks good. The front of it looks very nice. The back end is sort of a mystery. I appreciate the clean look of it w/o any cladding at all. I think it looks best in black. I do like it better than last generation in terms of looks.

dindak · June 2003

gunit : Having LIVED with DRLs for 10+ years I totally believe the studies for them. I think my experience and the many studies I have provided links to are much better than the arguments you have put forth (saving $5 gas / year ect). Like I said, I was against them when they came out but after living with them I will tell you that not having them mandatory in the U.S. is shame. I hope the U.S. mandates soon. Auto head lights are a good feature also, they should be incorporated into the DRL systems.

gunit : "The GT does NOT have enough highway acceleration". LOL, those poor people with only 200 HP, how do they live eh?

johnclineii : Probably right on the CTS / GTP issue. Only down side is Cadillac service and insurance is likely to be higher.

Just noticed in the paper this weekend that GM Canada added $1000 cash back to all 03s for the final clearance.

evandro · June 2003

You're right, HID bulbs cost between $160 and $185 (see http://www.xenon-hid.com/hid-lights.htm). I was basing my comments on their cost in Europe. Yet, 10x more expensive than halogen ones...

But I like the illumination quality of my Bonneville's headlights.

And, boy, do some HID headlights cause glare!

evandro · June 2003

As I said, what you think as the fog-lights on are just low-intensity lamps behind the same lenses as the actual fog-lights...

evandro · June 2003

I wonder if what's been holding back the output of the 3.8 is the tranny... The GTP gets a soupped up version that, so goes the word, doesn't last as long as the stock one with the NA engine...

oldsman01 · June 2003

Actually, 97 GPs with the n/a 3800 only made 195 hp so hp has increased by 5, but I get your point:) I like the 3800 V6 and for an OHV engine, it is pretty refined, economical, and performs well. But I think GM is nearing the end of the road on the engine's performance potential. The new 3.6 liter DOHC V6 looks very promising as it seems to have both the HP and torque numbers to provide a pretty good punch. Anyone want to imagine what one of those with a supercharger would be like.

midlifecrisis · June 2003

I've been driving in NJ for the past 4 years with my fog lights on all the time.

I like DRL's and I like automatic headlights.

And I suspect that the GT2 will have enough highway acceleration to suit my needs. My Grand Am has plenty in that category, with a smaller enginer.

johnclineii · June 2003

Power is a relative thing. What is acceptable to some is too much for others and nowhere near enough for still others.

Drive, then decide.

dindak · June 2003

Absolutely. That said, the GT / GT2 200hp is plenty for me and 95%^ of people out there. I don't drag people (usually) at lights and have nothing to prove with my car.

Even our second car (an Alero) has only a 140hp 2.2L Ecotec in it and I think it's plenty peppy even on the highway.

gunit · June 2003

Oldsman01, you were right the GP made 195hp in 1997 at the last minute because of cooling issues, they couldn't safely rate it at 200hp until 1998. The bonny had a 205hp version of the 3800.

Something doesn't sound right when GM bumped the SE 3100 engine from 160 hp in 1997 to 175hp, yet they couldn't do the same with the 3800? Come on !!

Same thing, for '04 they bump the S/C 3800 to 260, up from 240, yet they keep the regular 3800 at 200 still? same as 1998 !!

The competition has made such leap and bounds and GM is stuck on the same GT power ratings from 1998....

gunit · June 2003

Dindak, Sepak for yourself, 200hp may be good for you, but not for me..... Based on sales, 95% of buyers were NOT happy with 200hp GT because nearly 30% of buyers opted for the GTP's 240 hp each year, that is the only reason I bought the GP was because of that engine, if it only had the 200hp engine, I would have gone with something else... 6.8 vs 8.0 0-60mph is a big difference, especially in safely pulling out onto a highway. The 200hp engine is great off the line and up to 40mph... after 40mph the 3800 runs out of steam. I have had many experiences in GT 200hp Grand Prix as renta cars, that is what I usually rent on business trips all the time. I could never find a GTP rentacar. Again, at 60mph, put the 3800 to the floor, not much, only so-so, where there was a huge dif with the 240 horse engine if you nailed it at 60mph.

Every try pulling out from a dead stop with 4 people in the car directly on too a highway with no merge lane? You would then appreciate the extra 40 horse!!

gunit · June 2003

When I traded my MODDED 1997 GTP Coupe with around 58k miles in 2002, never had a tranny problem, shifted like it was new. I used synthetic tranny fluid wit h an external cooler/shift kit and changed it at 30k miles. I like it better then the 4spd one in my '01 I30t. Shifts crisper before the kits.

Like you said the GTP gets a more heavy duty version of the 4T65-E Transaxle to handle the extra power. It can take up to 280ft-lbs torque. It can probably take up to 280/300 hp mark, I don't know of the facts on what the rebuild rate of GTP vs GT trannies are. People are probably harder on the GTP. It's a good tranny regardless.

johnclineii · June 2003

And yet, I traded my 98 GTP for an 00 Impala LS with the 200 hp engine. Huge difference? No. As satisfying to drive as the GTP? Steering and handling? Yes, it is different but still satisfying. Power? No.

dan165 · June 2003

I think you completely speak for your self when you say 200hp is not sufficient for a midsize sedan. For the vast majority of car buyers (myself included) the standard 3800 is more than enough power and certainly much more than the hundreds of thousands of 4 cylinder sedan buyers out there. Your power obsession is not shared by most people.

RE: The DRLs issue you were arguing, your points are very weak to put it mildly. Saving gas? Give me a break!! DRLs have been shown to save lives and cut accident rates. Open you mind to other people's comments, your opinion is yours and not the holly grail.

montanafan · June 2003

Gunit, I can't beleive that everyone in New Jersey is rewiring their cars.

The anti-DRL sites all link to a "how does it work" article that says DRLs would cost the owners a couple of gallons of gas per year.

I had a chance to drive the CTS during a recent GM Auto Show in Motion. The center stack in the CTS is the same material and "gain" pattern as the GP,to my eye. (Drove a GP a few minutes latter) The only difference is on the CTS it only forms the Top and Sides of the radio/HVAC box. There was a softer material on the front.

dan165 · June 2003

Congrats on the new GPs. The 04 family is growing which is nice to see. I have a GT2 which I just love driving. No issues to report aside from a keyed door.

:-(

midlifecrisis · June 2003

"Based on sales, 95% of buyers were NOT happy with 200hp GT because nearly 30% of buyers opted for the GTP's 240 hp each year"

Put me in the category that are happy with 200 HP. I would say that most people are most concerned about their acceleration at low to mid speed range. And I still don't understand how a car's accleration can just peter out once you hit 40 mph. Granted it doesn't have the supercharged push of the GTP, but still it has 230 ft lbs of torque! The 3.5 Altima has 45 more HP but only 16 ft lbs torque. The Accord has 40 more HP, but 18 LESS ft lbs torque. The Camry has 10 more HP, but 10 less ft lbs torque.

And furthermore, I don't care that the 3800 engine has had 200 HP for the past 8 years or whatever. It gets the job done as far as I'm concerned. I drove a 240 HP Intrepid SXT and the thing couldn't get out of its own way. I test drove a 200 HP Monte Carlo and the car could spin the wheels at will.

midlifecrisis · June 2003

I love this Edmunds customer review of the GT2 model. Is this person from this planet? Who orders a car without knowing what they're getting??

"Review: I ordered not knowing the design...bad mistake...this is one ugly Grand Prix. As Vanilla looking as you can get...what were they thinking? Is there anyone home at Pontiac??? And we thought the Aztech was a joke?

Favorite Features: Rear doors open wide...that about it.

Suggested Improvements: Fire the design team...put them on the island with the Azteck team!!! Start over!!!"

evandro · June 2003

I'm not unhappy with the 3.8's 205HP on my Bonneville SLE (5 extra HP from freer exhaust), but I'd take 240 or 260HP of the SC anytime. I just couldn't afford an SSEi.

That been said, HP figures can be misleading, as midlifecrisis suggests. As someone has already said here, the torque figures and the shape of its curve is much more important.

A good illustration of these statements was a mid-size test by C&D a few years ago, when a GP GT beat every contender under any performance aspect, even if the others had DOHC and valve timing, such as Accord, Maxima, etc. Yet, one wouldn't read more than one line about that in the article...

dindak · June 2003

"30% of buyers opted for the GTP's 240 hp"

So what? That hardly means that people are crying for more power. Most sedans sold are 4 cyl motors with an average of 150hp or less. A 200hp GP is still a very nice and peppy sport sedan, not underpowered in any way. Your obsession with more power is fine, but definitely part of a minority view.

midlifecrisis · June 2003

"Your obsession with more power is fine, but definitely part of a minority view."

Very well put....

gunit · June 2003

<< I test drove a 200 HP Monte Carlo and the car could spin the wheels at will.>> Offl the line, Because of the crappy Good Year Eagle RSA tires spd rated to 130mph they use which have poor traction and limited handling capability, that is why I replaced them the 1st week I got my '02 GTP. Any semi spirited handling and they squeal like no tomorrow. They have to among the worst tires i have ever had. The Monte Carlo SS is the biggest joke out there, esp when a Honda Accord V6 will blow it's doors off, 7 seconds vs 8 seconds 0-60. Finally GM in 2004 get's it right and drops the supercharged 240hp engine in.

As I have said many times before the 240hp Dodge Intrepid has an inefficient auto tranny which robs alot of hp and is also a heavier/larger car then the W body's. Read previous post

The std 3800 runs out of steam around 40mph, 40-60 is pathetic..

gunit · June 2003

Dan165

No actually I speak for about 30% of the GP buyers which are GTP buyers. The reason the other 70% don't buy the GTP is because of the money factor, not power factor, both me and you know that. The GTP is about $3k more then a GT. Where else can you get a factory installed supercharger with a 3yr 36k warranty for $3k extra? It would cost you that much more aftermarket. There are many 4 cylinder cars that will blow the doors off a 200 hp 3800 or at least keep right up with it, Civic/Focus etc.

My pwr obsession is shared by 30% of GP buyers who buy GTPs..... If 200hp is good for you then fine, it isn't for me. whatever.

gunit · June 2003

Dindak,

Sorry to brake the news to you but The GP in SE or GT form is NOT a sport sedan. HARDLY.... Only in GTP form do I consider it close to a sport sedan. Sport sedans have 240 or more horsepower by today's standards. A GT with a 0-60 time of 8 to 8.5 seconds is hardly sporty. There are many 4 cylinder cars that run in that time slot today.

In fact the new 2004 GT actualy is slower then the old one..

back in 1997 the GTP was a headturner and powerfull car, today the competition has narrowed the gap big time, while gm rested on its laurels.

dindak · June 2003

I think Dan is saying what I am. 30% of GP buyer is only a small percentage of sedan buyers. Most people do not buy or need 240-260 hp even if it was only $1000 more. You are power obsessed, most people are not. Who cares if a few Civics can beat you at a stop light. I know you do, but most don't. It certainly doesn't mean the car is "underpowered". Is that so hard to understand?

gunit · June 2003

dindak

Yes I am powered obsessed and have and always will buy the biggest most powerfull engines... also all Maxima and I35 buyers get the 255/265 hp engine standard,

The fact of the matter is that the 240-260hp is NOT $1k more, it is $3k more... most people I know will NOT pay $3k more, it comes down to price, not power. Also when you buy a GTP you get alot more standard features that are options in the GT, like the HUD and std Abs/traction control. You are getting much more then just PWR for that $3k. Also a GTP is worth more resale value then a SE or GT.

I modify my cars... I do race them, so for me more is better, for you 200hp is ok, to each their own.

dindak · June 2003

FYI.. "sport" has to do with handling and speed, not just 0-60 time.

gunit · June 2003

Dindak, the last time I checked 0-60 is part of the speed equation, and FYI.. the GTP does out handle the GT and SE, has a larger anti-roll bar on the suspension and better/bigger wheels.

The GT and SE are not sports sedans in fact the GTP comes close, but front wheel drive limits it.

I do NOT consider my GTP coupe a sports coupe or car. Even with all my mods.

gunit · June 2003

<<<I'm not unhappy with the 3.8's 205HP on my Bonneville SLE (5 extra HP from freer exhaust), but I'd take 240 or 260HP of the SC anytime. I just couldn't afford an SSEi.>>>

My point made, the majority of people who DO NOT buy the supecharged engine, didn't beacuse they couldnt' afford it, the extra $3k not because they didn't need 240-260 hp.
I havea few friends that would have bought the GTP and wanted it but couldn't do to financial reasons.. so they stuck with the GT and later kicked themselves for it.

>>>That been said, HP figures can be misleading, as midlifecrisis suggests. As someone has already said here, the torque figures and the shape of its curve is much more important.<<<

You are right, you have to compare 0-60 and 1/4 times more then HP or Torque figures... a 215hp INtrigue takes nearly 8 seconds 0-60 while a GTP with only 25 more hp does it in 6.8.

<<>>

yes back then in 1997 or 1998 the GT did break even or beat the competion, but fast forward to NOW, 2004, the GT is still the same car it was back in 1997, same engine, while that same competition has make their cars peform much better, with GM resting on its laurels.

Pontiac Grand Prix - 2000-2005

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