Edmunds dealer partner, Bayway Leasing, is now offering transparent lease deals via these forums. Click here to see the latest vehicles!
Toyota Prius (First Generation)
This discussion has been closed.
Popular New Cars
Popular Used Sedans
Popular Used SUVs
Popular Used Pickup Trucks
Popular Used Hatchbacks
Popular Used Minivans
Popular Used Coupes
Popular Used Wagons
Comments
AUGUST 14, 2000 ISSUE
SPECIAL REPORT
Commentary: The Japanese Are Making the Right Bet on Hybrids
When the subject of greener cars comes up, Detroit always has the same answer: Americans won't buy them. U.S. motorists, the industry says, want the broad-shouldered, gas-hungry hulks that are usually shown screaming across the landscapes environmentalists fight to protect. Besides, carmakers say, we can't get the mileage up to where environmentalists want it--the technology isn't there.
Uh-oh. Here come a couple of cool, high-tech cars that customers want to buy. These gas-electric hybrids not only deliver snappy performance but also get up to 65 miles per gallon. When Detroit was formulating its denunciation of green cars, it apparently forgot to send the memo to Japan. Toyota Motor Corp. (TM) and Honda Motor Co. (HMC) accomplished what Detroit said was impossible. And environmentalists are giddy.
''It's everything we can do to bite our tongues and not say, 'We told you so,''' says Daniel F. Becker, director of the Sierra Club's global warming and energy program. ''We're very enthused about hybrid cars and think that they are the wave of the present.'' The Sierra Club, which had never in its 108-year history honored a product, created an award for excellence in environmental engineering and gave it to both Honda's Insight and Toyota's Prius.
COSTLY REBATES. The critical issue for environmentalists is whether hybrids can help reduce the threat of global warming. All gas-burning cars emit carbon dioxide, one of the principal culprits. Better mileage means fewer emissions. American cars and trucks burn 120 billion gallons of gasoline a year, producing more than 1 billion tons of carbon dioxide, according to the Sierra Club. Part of the problem is the cars Americans drive. The Sierra Club calculated that the colossal Ford Motor Corp. (F). Excursion sport-utility vehicle is responsible for 134 tons of carbon dioxide during a 124,000-mile lifetime. A Honda Insight driven the same distance generates only 25 tons.
Hybrid cars offer a painless way to cut carbon dioxide emissions. But they can't do it fast enough. Nations will be meeting at The Hague in November to consider further progress toward reducing carbon dioxide emissions. And the U.S. will be under pressure to take action. But hybrid vehicles are not likely to grab a big share of the U.S. market for at least another decade.
The reason is that Honda and Toyota are giving consumers a hidden, costly rebate with each hybrid car they sell. Analysts estimate that Honda is losing $8,000 on each Insight. Toyota is also believed to be subsidizing each Prius. The auto makers won't make a bigger push to sell hybrids until those costs come down. ''I think with luck we can get to a million or so vehicles over a decade,'' says John M. DeCicco, a mechanical engineer and auto-policy specialist at the American Council for an Energy Efficient Economy in Washington. ''I don't see the costs coming down fast enough'' to sell any more than that.
In the meantime, if the U.S. wants to cut its emissions, it must boost the fuel efficiency of conventional cars, minivans, and light trucks. A gas tax is one way to do that. It would cut gasoline use--thereby reducing carbon dioxide emissions. It would encourage moves to alternative fuels, reduce dependence on foreign oil, and make hybrid cars far more attractive. The tax could be offset with a reduction in income taxes, say, so that it would end up costing the public nothing. It's a rational solution--the kind that economists like. But it has no chance of adoption in Washington's antitax climate.
An alternative is to raise fuel-economy standards. This strategy has been proven to work. The standards were tightened in the early 1980s, and the actual fuel economy of cars and light trucks rose to an average 26 miles per gallon. But the auto industry blocked any further attempt to change the standards. And now the average fuel economy of U.S. cars and light trucks has fallen back to where it was in 1980, shortly after the system was established (chart).
U.S. auto makers are betting they can continue to block tougher fuel-economy standards and delay the arrival of greener cars and trucks. With the Insight and the Prius, Honda and Toyota are making a different bet. They are positioning themselves as the carmakers of the future. They are getting valuable experience in the production of sleek, affordable, environmentally friendly cars. That makes it easy for environmentalists to take sides.
By Paul Raeburn
Senior Writer Raeburn covers science and the environment.
AUGUST 14, 2000 ISSUE
SPECIAL REPORT
Q&A with Thomas Elliott
A talk with North American Honda's Thomas Elliott
Detroit's latest buzz is the jockeying between truck kingpins Ford Motor Co. and General Motors Corp. for bragging rights as America's most eco-friendly car company. Sure, both are scrambling to bring out gas-electric hybrid-powered cars and trucks, while racing to boost fuel economy of their thirstiest pickups and sport utilities. But so far, they're just playing catch-up to Japanese rivals, Toyota Motor Corp. and Honda Motor Co.
Honda has spearheaded the U.S. move to cleaner, more efficient cars, first by making its bread-and-butter Civics and Accords ultra-clean, then by being first to market with the next generation of eco-cars, the gas-electric hybrids. In January, Honda launched the Insight two-seater, whose 65-mile-per-gallon fuel economy beats any other vehicle on the road. Already, consumers have snapped up some 2,000 of the stylish Insights, prompting the company to double this year's sales goal to 8,000 cars. So far, its only rival for fuel-economy prowess is the just-introduced Toyota Prius, a five-seat compact.
Ultimately, hydrogen-powered engines are a good bet to take over American highways. But until that technology is perfected, cleaning up internal-combustion engines is the industry's goal. Hybrids, which use electric motors to enhance the power of small, fuel-efficient, gas-driven engines to match the performance of conventional cars, appear to be the best way to do that.
Thomas G. Elliott, executive vice-president of North American Honda, spoke with Business Week's David Welch about why hybrids will become more commonplace and what the future of cleaner, more efficient cars will look like. Edited excerpts of their conversation follow:
Q: Why hybrids and why now?
A: We see the gas-electric hybrid in the near and medium term as the technology that could address environmental and fuel-economy concerns. Hybrids are the kind of car that most consumers can live with. The technology is almost transparent to them.
Q: Looking at your plans for future hybrids and those of Toyota, Ford, and GM, it seems hybrids could hit volumes of at least 100,000 a year by 2004. Is it realistic to think that the technology will catch on to sell such numbers?
A: It sounds reasonable to me. Selling 100,000 as an industry is easily attained by 2004 and maybe exceeded.
Q: So does that mean we're in the age of the hybrid?
A: I think we're right on the tip of it. You're going to see more versions coming.
Q: The Insight has been pretty successful, but critics call it an underpowered two-seater with limited market appeal. What's next?
A: The Insight is a first step for Honda. It was done to look at all aspects. The new hybrid will come off the Civic platform in Japan next year and in the U.S. some time after that.
Q: Toyota plans to sell 12,000 units of the Prius in the first year. What kind of volume can you do with a more mainstream hybrid vehicle?
A: Our next step will be significantly higher than that in terms of volume. Based on the acceptance of the Insight, there's greater growth potential. 20,000 is not an unreasonable number.
Q: You are losing money on this car. Can hybrid technology be sold profitably?
A: If we do enough volume, it can be done at a profit.
Q: Do consumers care enough about fuel economy and the environment to really make hybrids mainstream?
A: I don't think you can sell cars solely on environmental technology. If you're talking about mass-volume cars, you have to address the primary issues. We do feel that fuel economy and clean air will become more important.
Q: What kind of marketing buzz are you getting from these cars?
A: If you want to differentiate yourself, one way to do it is with emissions and fuel economy. What Honda does in North America can be carried globally.
Q: I've heard that Honda's push to cast an image as the industry's technology leader is part of a larger plan to contest for top market share in the U.S. many decades from now. That sounds nice, but is it realistic?
A: I've been here for 30 years. Back then, we were selling 3,000 cars. Now, we're selling 1.1 million. I do think Honda has the potential of becoming one of the top three sellers in the U.S.
Everything Toyota did for us was what we had expected but never got from Saturn. Some of the cult-like members over on the Saturn chat group didn't like us complaining, others were supportive because we weren't at fault. Even when a Saturn employee listening in on one of my conversations with another Saturn employee said "the little prick" after he thought we were disconnected but was caught on my tape recording. She deserves to be fired and we shall see what happens.
Enough of that saga, we love our Prius. First ones to take possession at the Burlington Toyota Dealership in Ontario, Canada. Dealer gave us their showroom car because we had to return the Saturn quickly. Excellent sales service, even gave us an expensive gift basket of Laura Secord Chocolates and took a photo.
I just found this board and know it is mostly U.S. owners but the cars are very similar. I am finding some of the differences like we don't have 'traction control' as mentioned on the U.S. Toyota site, or side air bags mentioned in the manual.
ONLY thing I would add to the car is a remote key fob that can open the trunk. Having to use the key when arms are full of groceries is difficult for me.
If you want to learn more about our Saturn story come visit http://people.becon.org/~djenning
I plan on making the Canadian Saturn Lemon Car webpage a submenu and changing the main page to the story about our Prius.
P.S. Anybody know how to reprogram the door locks to automatically lock when you start to drive? The model we test drove did that, but our car doesn't. On our Saturn it was an option we could program ourselves but the Prius ManualS don't cover it.
Looking for many happy years as a Toyota owner.
U.S. site talks about "Traction Control", Toyota Canada said not on mine.
Side air bags listed in owners manual but not on my car, not even an option.
Lastly, Single Cd was standard on mine but the 6 cd is a 550.00 CAD option.
Just tried out the U.S. prius chat on the Toyota site, asking about the automatically locking doors when you start driving. They told me to talk to the dealer. Seems to be a little bit of confusion over what this car is about, and what its features are but then it is so new.
but no mention in Canada. In fact this is the response I got from Toyota Canada "Thank you for your most recent correspondence.
Further to your inquiry, we wish to confirm that traction control is NOT an
option or a feature on the Prius. We would like to explain that market
trends are closely studied to give us a better idea of what vehicle
features are in demand. Then based on our findings, our Product Planning
Division is able to choose the vehicle options that best suit the needs of
the buying public.
Thank you again for writing.
Sincerely,
Tony Iafolla
Toyota Canada later did acknowledge the car had some electronics to prevent wheel spin, suppose that is the same thing in the end.
Wednesday, August 9, 2000
Detroit Free Press Doron Levin Column
Doron Levin
TRAVERSE CITY, Mich.--HONDA LEADS IN DEVELOPING CLEAN ENGINE:
Honda Motor Co.'s penchant for inventing cleaner engines fueled by ever smaller amounts of energy hasn't faded a bit.
While General Motors Corp. and the Ford Motor Co. quibble over which builds the most efficient pickups and sport-utility vehicles, Honda is
preparing to introduce its hybrid engine technology into mass-market cars next year.
GM and Ford have, to be sure, markedly improved engine performance in terms of cleanliness and efficiency. Yet both Detroit automakers still
lag far behind the two top competitors from Japan, Honda and Toyota.
Honda's aluminum-body Insight, powered by a gasoline engine and battery-driven electric motor, went on sale in January, boasting 61
miles per gallon in the city and 70 m.p.g. on the highway. I've driven the car, which was impressive.
The same technology goes into Honda's Civic next year, though the mile-per-gallon figure hasn't been announced.
"Our goal is to beat Prius" from Toyota, Honda spokesman Koji Watanabe said, implying that the new Civic will average at least 50 m.p.g. A
four-door Civic with manual transmission and traditional gasoline engine now gets about 35 m.p.g., on average.
Toyota is Honda's only serious technological competitor in the fuel efficiency race these days. Prius, Toyota's first hybrid car in the
United States, averages 53 m.p.g. in the city and 48 on the highway, and it has four seats instead of two.
Honda's Insight, which beat Toyota by a couple of months, has turned out to be a bigger hit with U.S. drivers than Honda had hoped, Kazuhiko
Tsunoda, chief engineer for Honda research and development, told the University of Michigan's annual conference of carmakers and suppliers
near Traverse City on Tuesday.
Tsunoda, whose expertise in aluminum fabrication has roots in Honda's motorcycle racing program, knows that some counterparts in the industry
speculate that the Insight and what it represents are overblown.
"I have heard it said that Insight is just a rolling laboratory," he said. But Tsunoda insisted it is not just an experiment.
Honda originally said it hoped to sell 4,000 Insights this year. Based on initial sales and reactions from customers, Honda is raising
its projection to 6,500, fulfilling the company's goal to sell affordable, environmentally friendly vehicles that also are fun to drive. "We must make cleaner cars that people actually want to buy," Tsunoda said.
I'm sure Tsunoda's comment wasn't meant as a dig at GM's battery-powered EV1, an environmentally friendly, all-electric vehicle that, sadly, went on sale in California and has been a humiliating flop.
Nevertheless, it's hard not to contrast the technological pace of Honda with Ford and GM's much-publicized hair-pulling match. Ford grabbed headlines by announcing it will improve light-truck fuel efficiency 25 percent in a couple of years. GM rebutted Ford by, among other things, announcing its first hybrid power train in a full-size pickup, which is to appear four years from now. Ford will offer its first commercial hybrid in 2003, a year earlier than GM, in a small
sport-utility vehicle.
Honda, meanwhile, already is closing in on the next bold technological step for cutting engine pollutants to zero: fuel cells. Watanabe
confirmed that Honda's first fuel-cell vehicle will go on sale in 2003.
Honda hasn't decided whether the fuel cell will be powered by hydrogen or methanol, he said.
Last week's dust-up might have suggested that GM and Ford are engaged in a public relations battle for the high ground in the fuel efficiency
wars.
Nothing could be further from the truth. There's a battle alright. But it's not about public relations. It's about engineering and technology.
---- INDEX REFERENCES ----
COMPANY (TICKER): Honda Motor Co. Ltd. (Ads); Honda Motor Co. Ltd.; General Motors Corp.; Ford Motor Co. (HMC J.HMC GM F)
I'm still quizzical about the CD player. We opted for the $335 version, and the dealer thinks it could be a 5 disc player (he's not sure). I've read here it would be a single disc player. Rather expensive, but I'm wondering if it will be operable by the touch screen.
I also want to have a door molding put on to protect from inevitable dents. Would I do better to take it someplace other than Toyota for this?
I've truly enjoyed this townhall discussion. 'Hope I'll soon be able to bring in some positive experiences myself.
When the car arrives at the port, you will get a phone call asking whether you want these 2 items.
When I order mine last week, the dealer told me that the first prius is coming in this week for the first person in line and he ordered like 2 months ago. I am number five in the queue according to the dealer but I have been told to wait until Nov before I can see mine
http://www.egroups.com/files/toyota-prius/Scott%27s+Prius/ScottPrius1%2EJPG
http://www.egroups.com/files/toyota-prius/Scott%27s+Prius/ScottPrius2%2EJPG
http://www.egroups.com/files/toyota-prius/Scott%27s+Prius/ScottPrius3%2EJPG
We tried to follow it with our hulky van, but that Prius was going 85 mph passing other cars, during rush hour. We couldn't keep up with it. Within minutes it was out of sight. It was exciting to spot it, and we would have been envious except that we'll be in our own soon. Well, hopefully soon.
So it looks like they'll start appearing, sort of like harbingers of a new age of vehicle transportation. Yes!
We had ordered the key and wheel locks when we took delivery of the car August 4th.
(The salesman kind of scared us with a story about an owner whos angry wife threw the keys in the lake and then they had to order an new 1000.00 computer with the new set of keys since there was no other way around the immobilizer.)
When we order the key I asked how long it would take to program the new key and was told 20 minutes.
Anyway, back to the service visit. The dealer installed the wheel locks, no problem. But then it seem to be taking longer than expected for the other things and after the car being in service for ~1.5hours they came out and told us they were having a 2 problems.
They said they needed to check with Toyota, but they didn't think the door locks could be programmed to autolock when put in drive. I would have bet money the other car had but after test driving sooo many cars it is all a blur needed to be cleared up with a Corona!
Oh, and the extra key, apparently they think there is a limit of 3 keys MAXIMUM. Oooops, guess this was a good day, because we both learned something.
I think you're better off without it. I certainly hope our Prius doesn't come with it. Best wishes...
It unlocks automatically upon removal of the key.
EXCELLENT 'deterrent against carjacking etc.
They also unlock in case of an accident automatically.
Also, the cost of a new engine computer is more like $2500, not $1000. Again, this is for the Camry but I suspect the Prius would be even more. Be very careful with those keys.
Wouldn't want to be paying an hourly rate while they 'learn' about the vehicle while having to do service.
Toyota Canada confirmed THREE keys max, and the door lock cannot be set to autoengage. Too bad. That and the REMOTE trunk release would make the car 100% complete, but then I have cruise.
Wonder what is and isn't covered? The "repair insurance" policys I have seen exclude batterys. Wonder if that means the battery pack on the Prius is covered or not.
Best of luck with your car! Please keep the group in the loop!
Bill Powell
I find this unacceptable. I've been told to wait until the 2002 model. Frustrating!
Toyota engineers built the car with the map and display buttons for a reason. It is reasonable to assume that the reason is because they intend to make the GPS available. If your purchase of the car depends on this, don't buy the 2001. If it is just a want or hope, sign up now while you still can.
The other thing to consider is the cost. DVD based systems run between $1800 and $2700 right now. Simple marine grade systems with mapping cost around $400. It is reasonable to assume the factory system would come in near the $2000 mark. That is not chump change.
2. Tucson, where I live, isn't digitized yet onto GPS maps, so the absence of the GPS option isn't so significant to me. With all the other cool things going on in this car, there will still be lots of tech-stuff to play with and show off.
3. I'm still wondering whether after-market GPS, DVD/TV and internet screens can be added to the Prius display. Time will tell.
The website states primarily powered by the battery only during acceleration. All other times, the motor is used or the gas engine and battery work in tandem. It will be hard to prove that the Prius is "primarily powered by current from rechargable batteries."
My dealer ( he is the same dealer who serves the most prolific correspondent on this page)adamantly refused to accept my Edmund's certificate. When I called the seller of the certificate, they connected me with the lawyer who handled the case. He told me what to tell the dealer but said that he could not get involved. When I called the dealer, nobody in upper management was available and I was told to leave a message on the voice mail. That evening, after getting no response, I sent them an email saying the same thing. Up to now no response. Today I called the CCC, who again connected me to the lawyer's office, but he wasn't in. As of now, I think that I will be lucky to get my $50 back. I do not intend to either waste a lot of time calling the dealer and lawyers or get involved in a lawsuit over $100.
Frustrating to say the least!!!
most prolific correspondent on this page". I assume you meant me as I have not seen any other dealers post here with any regularity. Alexandria Toyota has always accepted these coupons and would never jeopardize our legal standing on the class action settlement over $150. I checked our delivery log and didn't see your name so must assume that you are having this problem with somebody other than us. A little clarification would be appreciated on this issue.
One of the reasons that I bought the certificate is because the "most prolific correspondent" recommended it here. The reference was to let him know that he will have a problem when he gets his car.
Now, allow me to fill you in on the details of the certificate. If the dealer in question is listed on the certificate, they must honor it. The only exception is on cars that are advertised by stock number or VIN at a price under MSRP. This is to prevent people from using it on cars that we are selling in the paper as a loss leader.
The money from the certificate is NOT paid by Toyota. It comes directly from the dealer's profit. This is why there is resistance to take it. We looked for loopholes bout found none. Fortunately (for us), there are none left for the region I sell in.
It may be that it is possible to get a court order that requires the dealer to honor the certificate. I do not think that it is reasonable to employ a lawyer to file motions in a San Francisco fedral court in order to recover $150.
Frankly, I am disappointed in Edmunds for selling these certificates without being ready to enforce their validity.
-Dianne
Where do you live?
Trying to get a feel for when I will see my Prius... ...Prius envy?!?
---
Michael
The problem appears to be a strange court decision that is a lot like musical chairs. Any Toyota dealer who is presented a certificate is supposed to take $150 out of his profit. There seems to be a ruling of collective guilt but punishment for the unlucky or less devious. To paraphrase an old saying, it is a hell of a way to run a legal system.
It does not seem that anyone has completely clean hands in this matter; Edmunds, the lawyers, the dealers, Toyota, or the judge. As a customer, who bought the certificate with innocent expectations, I do not appreciate being plunged into the middle of a mess.
Even at this late date I'm second guessing my decision to buy one of these (partly because my wife thinks it's a "weenie" car, partly because I'm concerned about occasional highway travel that I must do) but the test drive went a long way to convincing me. The acceleration was fine (it helps that I'm not used to monster engines), and it drove just fine at 70mph.
Maybe you can dispute the credit card charge and return the certificate.
It is unfortunate but it seems that car dealers themselves reinforce their poor reputation.
I would suspect they'd be plenty irritated if they made the time to come right in to get their cars and I "decided" to throw another $150 on the top at the last minute just because I thought I could. In my own humble opinion, it's the very same thing.
I have been in this biz for 21 years now, (nearly half my life) and it's never ceased to amaze me that when someone comes in and is prepared to pick up a car and they start to re-negotiate a bottom line fleet deal with me, they are simply being "prudent" and thriftier. If I were to start to renegotiate an already accepted deal, I become a "cheat or liar"... or worse.
The behavior is the same, really, but the integrity of the dealership's employee would be lowered. Customers behave the same, they are not lacking integrity - just being "thrifty".
Uh huh.
--Dianne
1) Place a deposit (refundable) with dealer. They place an order through WWW to Toyota. I now have my place in line.
2) When I'm at the head of the line and a car comes in, I've got right of first refusal on that car.
3) Dealer won't quote a price, just says that he won't go above MSRP. Says this is because they don't know what the price of the car is going to be three or four months down the line, which is where I'll be when the car arrives.
Also, he says that DRL's and side airbags are optional, but of course he can't promise me anything because they get what Toyota ships him.
Last question, will there or won't there be cruise control on these? I know it's a city car, but I do head out of town occasionaly...
--Chris
What you've described is exactly like my experience, except that your dealer should quote you a price if they're going to take an order from you. Should be pretty close to 20,500 with no haggling.
My understanding is cruise control is not an option at this time --- they make a big deal that this is not a highway car. Like you, this was a big concern of mine, but I drove one at 70-75 mph and it was great.
On the options, CD player and floor mats are it. No cruise, no GPS, no DRLs.
Visit the Prius club on Yahoo for more info direct from Toyota. Priusman is the program manager for the Prius, and ee of ee is an engineer.
MJS
--Chris