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Comments
As pointed out above, the real comparison here should be between comparably equipped IS300s, 325s, and C240s. Of these, the IS and BMW pretty much tie in straightline performance, and the BMW and new C tie in handling and ride quality. Prices on the window are very comparable...drive them all and make your choice...and yes, don't forget the TL/CL, the best value of all.
Comparing the IS with the 330i or C320 is pretty useless - the IS will be $4-8k cheaper, and the 3er and C win in every other category, except long-term reliability: they go, handle, ride better, have nicer interior finish and details, and are probably worth the extra money for anyone who can afford it.
When the new C actually becomes available [about two weeks], then any serious buyer needs to try all three [and the CL/TL] and let your conscience and checkbook be your guide. The best value is clearly the Acura, but FWD prejudice is still out there...I prefer RWD myself, but for me it's not a religion. The way the cars behave on the road is not radically different: I've driven them all multiple times [except the new C, of course...I'm first in line at the local dealer], and while the differences are noticeable, none of these cars are going to be a disappointment on a winding road or a long trip. It comes down to how you personally need to break these ties...
I have to disagree. in terms of handling the C-class(even the 2001) pales compared to the IS300. The C-class will still be more tailored for luxury than sport and performance. And the IS300 handles pretty close to the BMW 3-series. It actually handles a bit better but is more twitchy at its limits.
The IS300 is marked up about $4K(base IS300) while the base 330i is marked up about $3200(base MSRP for 330i).
So no, the Lexus doesn't have a extra $2K built in.
While I must give credit to Lexus for taking some chances in the car's interior/exterior styling, the car still drives like is was "focus-grouped" to death. $31k for 215 HP? Sorry, Lexus. Be sure and let me know when it'll outrun my '98 GS-R.
We're also selling them for $695.
BTW, We just did a gold pkg on an IS for a customer.. Ugh!
Bill
Then by the same token you're better off with a mustang GT or something..
Dollar/hp quotient isnt going to be superhigh on a Lexus, as you're not paying for only that.
Bill
This is getting ridiculous! The IS 300 competes directly with the Audi A4 and BMW 328i, and that is about all!
I'm glad to read that those of you who have purchased or leased the IS are enjoying the car, and I certainly wouldn't refuse one as a gift (or hesitate to puchase one at around $28,000), but the car just doesn't drive like a $31,000 car. The car aspires to offer something special, but doesn't offer anything akin to the A4's AWD or the handling prowess of the 328. Lexus should have put the (dearly departed) SC 300 drivetrain in the IS. Or given the US market the high-revving 2.0L VVT-i and 6-speed manual from the JDM version. THAT would have provided some badly-needed distinction in its class.
How about handling? braking? Acceleration? features? quality/reliability?
Handling, braking, acceleration can be had elsewhere in the class in the form of the BMW 3-series and Audi A4 for similar or more money.
So, tell me, what is a $31K car supposed to drive like?
"but doesn't
offer anything akin to the A4's AWD or the
handling prowess of the 328." Last time I checked, it handles very competitively to the BMW 3-series!
It isn't my intent to be churlish here, but have any of you enthusiasts taken a look at the profit margin per car at the manufacturer's level for these models?
It might be worth your while to explore this area before making claims about the merits of your favourite marque.
It's no secret that all of the offshore auto companies, plus the luxury divisions of the domestic manufacturers make huge profits on the so called high end products.
As an example, BMW and Mercedes North American subsidiaries are far and away the most profitable auto companies in the world. Why, you might ask? Simply because their margins are the highest.
I'm not trying to say that any of the high end models are not good cars--most, if not all are very good in fact. My point is simply that the price/value relationship is way out of line. But the marketing strategies the automakers use is hugely effective in convincing the public otherwise.The sales and earnings figures consistently reinforce this every quarterly report.By the way, I have to admit that I'm as gullible as any---and would love to own an overpriced Porsche!
Any discussion?
I would say not really, since all luxury cars provide high profits for their respective companies. Its basically the way the luxury car market has always been. And profits are basically proportionally higher across the board.
Also, if you want to complain about high profit margins, it would be more worthwhile to argue about the much higher profit margins of SUVs.
Its probably also noteworthy to point out that the price/value relationship is always heading downwards as price increases. Ultimately, a Hyundai Elantra has a better price/value relationship than a Toyota Corolla, while a Accord has a better price/value relationship than a Acura TL, while a Camry has a better price/value relationship than a ES300, and the same for a S500 Benz vs. a Bentley, and so on.
Bill, Thanks for the info on the gold package. I had (briefly) considered it and decided that it just wouldn't look right on the IS.
As for the car comparisons....
Who really cares if the 0-60 differs by .3 between the BMW and the IS300. If you plan on racing then maybe it makes a difference. To the person that says the TL/CL is a better deal. You should see the customer reviews of the TL. About 90% of the 40 reviews that I read all talk about rattles and minor probs with the car (that the dealer is not resolving). They attribute this to the car being made in Ohio. This doesn't even take into consideration that the exterior of car is very bland. I seriously considered the TL. Also, I personally don't like the look of the CL and wouldn't even consider the car. The CL has around 265 hp if that is all that you are interested in... As a side note, I saw THREE used CL's on the BMW dealers lot. That seems like a lot given that it is a 2001 model and has been out for just a short while.
My thoughts on comparing BMW And IS300... A comparable 325 BMW would cost around $36,700 MSRP. A comparable 330 BMW would cost over $41,000. The IS300 that I am considering will cost $34,200 (includes ltd slip, moonroof, luxury pkg, heated seats, cargo mat, wheel locks - the tinting, spoiler, and destination charges are not included in the prices to make the comparison). The 325 is the only BMW that comes close to this price ($2500 more than the IS) and it has a good bit less hp. I also see way to many BMW's on the road and like the fact that the IS300 is somewhat "rare".
Any comment from the Lexus salesperson that was on the site earlier. Why such a difference - $695 as compared to $444?
The IS300 does have a firmer/stiffer ride than the BMW 3-series with sport package. But not by much. Although it is firmer riding than the BMW 3-series, it still rides smoothly on all but the roughest roads.
automophile,
of course. They market the hell out of SUVs because they are making all those $$$$$$$ on SUVs. They charge alot for SUVs plus R&D costs are less for SUVs because most SUVs are based off of pickup/truck platforms. And generally pickups sell in huge numbers which decreases R&D costs per vehicle.
RE: handling- IS vs. 3-series
Thanks for making my argument. The IS doesn't handle as well as the 3-series, and it needs to be BETTER than the 3-series in order to stand out from the crowd. Otherwise, what's the point?
And for $31,000 plus, the damn thing had better be able to out-drive any one of a number of FWD sports coupes that can be had for a price in the low $20's.
I would suggest a course in Econ. 101 to refresh memory!
himiler,
You are providing some mighty good laughs! Why does the IS300 need to be better than the 3-series to stand out from the crowd?? Its already standing out with edgy styling inside and out! Not to mention a pretty good price as opposed to the BMW 3-series. BTW, read some magazine articles before you speak about handling. The IS300 is running better slalom times, braking times, and basically equal skidpad numbers.
alucard2,
I think by law, in every state, a dealer cannot keep your deposit unless they stated it when you put your deposit down. That usually means it would have to be in writing on your purchase agreement. Otherwise a deposit is just that, a "deposit" to hold a vehicle.
Are you sure yours are graphite wheels and not chrome wheels?
BMW is quite profitable, but almost everyone within the auto industry regards its Rover investment as a terrible mistake, & some observers think that the Quandts have lost confidence in the current management team & would cash in their shares at the right price.
Let me keep this on topic with the following question: if the IS300 were available today with a 5-speed manual, would you folks choose it over a similarly equipped 3-series BMW? I'm in the market for a sport sedan, which to my way of thinking means a stick shift. I have tentative plans to buy a 3-series BMW early next year, but I can certainly hold off for another 6 months for a 5-speed manual IS300 if someone can convince me that it's worth the wait. What do you good people think?
5-speed manual, would you folks choose it over a
similarly equipped 3-series BMW?"
Hellz yesss!!! Personally, a manual transmisssion is the only real feature that is holding the IS300 back!!!
I heard the same things about the Quandts (those shares are worth something like $6 billion!). I guess they aren't too happy taking a $2 billion hit in the shorts, huh? I wouldn't be, either.
In California, the markups are atrocious. Above all, the BMWs here provide little or no room for bargaining power and the dealers are not afraid to tell buyers to take a hike. Plain and simple.
The Lexus in summary, will a cost considerably less than a loaded BMW. Plus TRD makes some good stuff that is on the way to put the horsepower right at the level of the 330i. BMW is started become played a bit as the same crowd will be looking to move into something fresh and a better value.
In California, the markups are atrocious. Above all, the BMWs here provide little or no room for bargaining power and the dealers are not afraid to tell buyers to take a hike. Plain and simple.
The Lexus in summary, will a cost considerably less than a loaded BMW. Plus TRD makes some good stuff that is on the way to put the horsepower right at the level of the 330i. BMW is started become played a bit as the same crowd will be looking to move into something fresh and a better value.
I see why the statement was made that the IS300 has to be better than the 330i. No matter how good the competitors are the auto magazines still compare them to the bench mark (330i). I am not saying that the 330i are the best cars in this class, but every article that I have read still gave the edge to the BMW. The A4 has been close as well as the IS300, but no cigar. When you factor in the performance-vs-value the IS300 is a better value, but I am still having a problem with paying a $4000 mark up on the IS300. If anyone has the specs options, and prices of the IS300, the IS200 or Altezz, please forward it on to me I just feel like Toyota's marketing group is laughing all the way to the bank. "Those brand conscious Americans will pay extra to have someone's name on their buts." I am sorry for this long posting I just venting a little.
I have yet to physically see one with a factory rear wing. Im not even sure we can technically order them that way.
Ever tried getting an ES300 with Nakamichi???
Also, it's not uncommon for some acessories to cost us more than the MSRP on them would be from the factory. However, I doubt that we'd order many ISs with rear spoilers simply because not everyone wants them. Of all of the ISs that we've delivered I think I know of two that have spoilers on them. Besides, this car seems to attract a buyer that wants to specifically personalize their own car. So perhaps each buyer wants a different wing?
Bill
>BTW, read some magazine articles before
>you speak about handling. The IS300 is running
>better slalom times, braking times, and basically
>equal skidpad numbers.
All of those magazine comparisons were done with the 328i, the older, slower model that BMW no longer produces! The 330i is what the IS300 is up against now so all bets are off.
First, the handling of the 330i is not going to be better than the 328i since the suspension remains the same and so do the sport packages and tire choices. Second, it is expected the 330i is only faster by about a 1/4 second. So all bets are not off. And I would expect the 328i/330i to be faster considering it starts at where the IS300 ends and tops off at about $43K.
I am the artist formally known as Enigmaone.
Could have picked one up here in Las Vegas w/no problem, but would have had to take leather & sun roof. Some stats: According to the internet folks that tracked down our car, the first shipment to the western region of silver IS-300s totalled 190, of that # only 8 came w/o leather, and this one in Fremont was the only one not yet sold.
Our situation is a little different, we don't fit the marketing profile. My wife will be using the car for Real Estate and because of the heat (ever climb into and out of a car with leather, in 120 degree temperatures, and wearing shorts) and her asthma, can't take any more than a minimal amount of leather in a car. The fumes just kill her. Do you know how hard it is to get a car now without this pressed and formed crap that people call leather? Most up line cars don't even have a cloth or full vinyl option.
Ride: have driven Beemer 3's for years. Far prefer the ride over bumps here in LV that the Lexis provides. We've taken the IS on two 900 mile+ trips during the past month and not at all tiring.
Have no problem with the auto shift, except the computer shift from 1st to 2nd sucks unless you really accelerate away from the stop. I won't be trying to turn a corner, starting up normally from a red light anymore as I always used to, because the pause at the shift point almost got us tail ended by the guy turning right behind us.
Other than that, had a 67 MB250sl for years with automatic stick in the console and drove every type of road in europe and the states and never missed having a stick shift even back then when I was young (having moved up from a 67 MGB & a 67 Healy 3000.)
Besides, since this car is primarily my wife's, she's not as macho as most of the folks who'll be reading this. Sorry for carrying on so long.
Chuck
does anyone have any tips for break-in?
tips for soap, wax, interior cleansers and other care products?
break-in: You were supposed to drive it gently for 300 or so miles.
soap: Only use car was detergent. Usually the liquid kind is better vs. the power kind. I like Mothers brand car wash detergent.
Wax: Carnauba Wax. Don't wax the car for about 3 months. Interior cleaners: Lexol is good for leather & vinyl.
Other car: Paint cleaner, swirl remover, wheel cleaner then wax wheels with Carnauba Wax. Bathroom cleaner(scrubbing bubbles) works great to get rid of bug splatter and other debris stuck to car.
And always apply 2 more layers of wax to front hood and bumper.
chuck
Carnuba waxes are excellent, - I have used them for 30 years, but I now feel that the Zaino polymer products are far superior in looks, protection and ease of application. You can find out more at www.zainobros.com and at the Zaino forum here. There is nothing else like it trust the word of a car fanatic.
And - don't wait. The car's fast-drying paints are thoroughly baked at the factory, plus the delivery times - there is no longer any reason to wait to protect the paint, in fact it invites disaster in the form of stains, scratches and water spots.