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Ed
One big surprise: Despite having the 29U package, it came through with no power seat for the passenger. I complained to the dealer "loudly," pointing out that not only had this feature driven my choice of models but I had specifically confirmed with the saleman at the time I placed the order that the passenger seat would be powered just as the driver's seat. My salesman, a second salesman, the business manager, and the sales manager all looked through all of their ordering info. Everything they found reinforced my expectation. The sales manager said "We owe you a powered passenger seat and will get you one." We'll see. (The side air bags are in the front seats. They had better get it right!)
One medium surprise: The radio, despite being described in unusual terms in the brochure as having CD changer controls, does not in fact have a CD player. It has a cassette player. The CD changer controls verbiage means only that it can control an external CD changer supplied by the customer. The salesman said that I was not the first person to make that mistake. That's a bit of a low blow, but I won't make a fuss.
The interior color is "navy blue." It is in fact a medium blue combined with a gray/bluish seat fabric--perfectly pleasant, and nothing that I would have called "navy blue."
The vehicle is wonderfully plush, smooth, and quiet. So far, I love it.
-Larry
Naples, NY
Question - Early generations of the AWD system offered in the minivans sent a maximum of only
10% of the torque to the rear wheels if slippage was detected in the front wheels. Is this still the case on the 2002 models or has Chrysler updated the system? They offer *very* little technical information on their website.
-- BKS
Our 2001 model works wonderfully.
I live in SE Pennsylvania, we have occasional snow storms of considerable amounts but not sure if its enough to warrant the cost. But its tempting.
-- BKS
We do find the AWD functionality worth it. We are essentially replacing a SUV, so we use it on snowy mountain roads and dirt/gravel back roads. The only problem is the lower ground clearance for ruts and potholes; higher snow hasn't stopped us--yet.
Here in western Washington, the additional control on our frequently wet roads is appreciated. (I think they sell more Subarus here than anywhere.)
Have you looked at the 2002 Sedona? If so, how do you compare it with your 2001 Voyager?
I agree with you that if one spends $22K, it is better to get T&C to get the rear Air/rear heater. With the new eL model, you also get the nice overhead console with outside temp/compass/ trip computer, Triple Zone Temp control.
The base Voyager is an excellent minivan and you got the REALLY important options. I am very pleased with the 3.3L V6 that has more than sufficient power with excellent fuel economy. You are wise to not try to "2nd Guess" and be happy with the vehicle you got.
I feel the Sedona is also very nice vehicle at an excellent price.
Yesterday I drove a 2002 AWD (Dodge Caravan ES). I could NOT get it to exhibit resonance at 2100 rpm or any other rpm in normal driving. My own 2001, which I had driven to the dealership for this test, under the same conditions DID exhibit the resonance. On my vehicle, there has been no change (improvement or degradation) in 20,000 miles. However, it IS temperature sensitive -- mostly ambient temperature, not engine temperature. Now that the weather is cooling, the problem goes from being 'noticeable' to being quite annoying.
Because there don't seem to be reports about resonance problems in the 2002's and my own test (of only one vehicle) showed a difference to my 2001, this should be good news for those contemplating purchase of a 2002 AWD.
It may also prove to be good news for us 2001 AWD owners since it might indicate that DC does have a solution to the problem.
Does anyone know of ANY design changes to the driveline for AWD between 2001 and 2002?
--rolfe.
It's really annoying when driving uphill at a steady rpm of 2100. It takes a bit of a load on the engine (either accelerating or climbing) to get it to resonate. At 2000 rpm or below, no problem; at 2300 rpm or above, no problem. As stated earlier, my test drive of a 2002 AWD did NOT exhibit the problem. I'm in the process of asking my dealership to find out how come.
--rolfe.
Ed
Ride -- I don't think AWD has any effect. However, my ES has the trailer towing option, and I think that probably makes it ride a bit stiffer. I like it and wouldn't trade that feature. Suggest you test drive with and without trailer tow option.
Handling -- same answer. I think the handling is great -- tracks well, corners predictably, no sway. I expect the FWD would be the same.
Fuel economy -- I suspect, from reading other posts here and comparing to my experience, that AWD 'costs' in the neighborhood of 2mpg. The best I can do over the long haul, mostly driving 70mph is about 22mpg. Around town is 16-17mpg.
Now to answer a question you didn't ask: how effective is AWD?
My answer is IF you add a good snow tire, it is fantastic. (I use Michelin Artic Alpins.) On packed snow acceleration is amazing (thanks to tires + AWD) and so is braking (thanks to tires + ABS). Last summer I 'tested' my vehicle on a gravel road, accelerating uphill and decelerating downhill. Again, amazing -- takes right off, stops in a straight line.
The reason I say tires are important is that I also drove on snow with the stock tires, and noticed a significant difference.
I'd say what it boils down to is: what conditions you need it to perform in, and cost (in terms of loss of efficiency and purchase price). I do a lot of winter driving and would make the same decision again.
Finally, if the AWD you are considering is a 2001, I strongly suggest that you research the 2100 rpm issue in this Topic and do a careful test drive to see if you can live with it.
Hope this helps.
--rolfe.
--rolfe.
Thanks much for the info. We do not get that much snow in NY and I have found that my cars with traction control always get me through the snow. However, my main issue is trying to merge into traffic when you are sitting on some sand or gravel. Even traction control does not help that much. I thought that AWD woudl give me the margin of safety. Any thoughts.
Thanks
Ed
I tried accelerating hard from a stop, going uphill, and did not spin a tire -- the vehicle just took off. I knew that my old Caravan (FWD) would have easily spun the front wheels, especially because of the incline and load. I was impressed.
I have no experience with traction control, but my understanding is that it is generally implemented by impeding acceleration, either by selective wheel braking or timing retardation. Thus, I would guess AWD would be better suited to your need (accelerating with poor traction).
--rolfe.
a) There was a fix made in the 2002 model. My source doesn't know what the fix entailed. (I test drove one 2002 ES AWD and could not make it resonate at any rpm I tried -- it sounded just like a FWD);
b) There will be a TSB "shortly" for 2001's. However, this likely won't be the full engineering change that was developed for the 2002's. Instead, it may be some kind of mitigation (in other words, a cheaper and perhaps less effective solution).
My guess is that the EC for 2002 involved preventing the resonance. The TSB may just try to dampen it.
My hunch is that "shortly" doesn't mean days, it probably means weeks.
FWIW, my source is usually pretty cautious when speculating on what DC may do about this problem; this time he seemed pretty certain about a future TSB. Naturally, I'll continue to track this.
And you're welcome. It's nice to have my efforts to inform appreciated.
--rolfe.
General Comments - We really like our 2001 GC AWD. What most impresses me about the vehicle are the driving dynamics (other than the 2100 issue) - really amazing for a minivan, or even for a "regular" vehicle. It is actually fun to drive, and I am an enthusiastic driver. Frankly I am less impressed by some of the day-in and day-out features. For instance, the cup holders attached to the rear captain's chairs are always falling down and getting in the way. The moveable center console seems cheap and flimsy and is generally in the way (although that phone holder/plug is nice, but the cap of the plug outlet has bitten the dust). The climate controls are not very intuitive and hard to use at night (poor or nonexistent back lighting where you need it). And the three knobs (fan, temp and direction are identical). The controls for the power windows and the power locks are the same button and positioned so that I am always confusing them - and again I do not think they are lit at night like most cars these days. Same for the headlight controls - our '95 Ford Contour we used to have had the controls always lit. With the minivan, they are only lit once you already have the headlights on - what good is that? the controls generally seem out of place for what is a $35k vehicle (however I guess if you bought a base GC for 19k or so they might not be? - a drawback of trying to please the whole spectrum of buyers w/basically one vehicle).
I hope someone who knows what the design change for AWD was for 2002 will post a description. That will help us evaluate how closely any TSB matches the real 'fix.'
--rolfe.
Thanx
Thanx
Caution! The '02 brochure clearly says that the LXi with 29U package includes a power passenger seat. IT IS NOT TRUE. There may be an unsaid requirement for leather, I'm not sure, but with cloth seats, it's not true. My dealer says that he will remedy this deficiency, but so far, only promises.
-Larry
Naples, NY
I ordered an AWD also. How do you like it so far?
Thanx
I went to Fullerton Chrysler (Southern California) after they told me to bring the car in. Once I got there, the first thing the Asst. Mgr. Of Service asked me is if I know the difference between a recall and a TSB (technical service bulletin). Basically, his point was that I have to pay for a TSB. I told him, not if the car is under warranty. He then said, "What year is your car?" He should know the answer, the model just came out (2001 model). He then asked, "Is it still under warranty? How many miles is your car?" How many people drives 36,000 miles in less than a year? The rest of the conversation does not matter. I knew then and there I do not want them touching my car.
I then went to Huntington Beach Chrysler. Upon arrival, the first thing I was asked is if I have an appointment. I told them, No, when I called Chrysler Corporation, I was just told to bring the car down. (This is a lie, I did not call Chrysler Corp. I just read from these postings and by calling other dealers that I was to bring the car down). Nonetheless, his answer surprised me. He said, "We do not work for Chrysler Corporation. Chrysler Corporation does not pay us. We are an independently owned dealer." When he saw the look on my face, he retorted, You don't want to pay for this, do you? . Basically, he is upset that I do not have an appointment. Point taken, but on the other hand, I was not asking him to fix the car right then and there.
A few exchanges later (and I want to point out, I still kept my cool because I just want them to change the roof rack) he calmed down, took the part number down and told me he would call me when the part came in. When it did, the work was performed and I was off on my way.
When the survey came, I told Chrysler Corporation the work was performed as expected, but that I was surprised at how rude the Service Manager was and how I felt my business was not appreciated. I was happy with the work, but I was not happy with the way I was initially treated. I did write that after the initial unpleasantries, I was treated as expected.
A few days ago, my ABS warning light went on. I called this same dealer to make an appointment (they were closest to my work) and was assigned to the same service manager. I did not want to deal with him again, but I had no choice. He said he can't see me until next Tuesday. I made the appointment anyway. I then called a different dealer and they were able to see me the next morning. I brought the car in and got better than expected service. The problem (rear wheel sensor) was fixed right away.
A few hours later, the same Service Manager @ Huntington Beach Chrysler called me and said, :Don't bring your car in. We don't want you to bring your car in. Your comments on the Chrysler Corporation Survey cost me $300. What kind of response did you think you were going to get?" I was taken by surprise, I just said, "Okay" and hung up. I couldn't believe it. Do I have to go through this verbal abuse every time I want to have them fix my car?
So I called their General Manager and told him what happened. His response was, "If you were not happy with us the first time, why would you want to come back?" Wow! This is new for me. I have never heard of a dealer refusing service to someone for writing a negative survey. After all, aren't surveys designed to find out why customers aren't happy? Apparently this dealer did not believe or want second chances.
So, I called Chrysler Corporation again and reported what happened. Even though the person on the other end eagerly took down the report (he couldn't believe it either). I expect nothing to come out of this (and by the way things are going, I HOPE nothing comes out of this).
I am not asking anyone to boycott the dealership. They seem to do good work and I am sure most people have no problems with them. I am still convinced I just caught this particular Service Manager at a bad time. I was thankful this happened. I now know for sure where not to take my car. And BOY, do I have a story to tell
Does anyone know anyone else who has been blacklisted from a dealership? For writing a bad survey?
Last but not least, I know none of you read my actual survey, but do you think I am fair in my survey, saying that I am happy with the work done but not the way I was initially treated?
I know the dealer is upset because of the bad remark, but, do you think they are justified in asking me not to bring my car to them? (even though I no longer want to?)
You indicate that you kept your cool but that several people you spoke with didn't. In my experience, that is very unusual. It would be most interesting to hear the other partys' versions of these conversations.
I am also struck by the blacklisting. I've never heard of that before in this context but I have certainly heard of that in other contexts. For example, a restaurant might reasonably refuse service to a patron who has a reputation for causing trouble.
Without hearing both sides, I don't think that there is any way to pass judgement here.
-Larry
Naples, NY
I believe the five star thing is working in my area.
Ed
1. The sales and service portions of a dealership may be run as two separate organizations under one roof. In that case, a quality experience in sales says very little about the longer-term and more important experiences you'll have in service. A less-than-good experience in sales augers for a nightmare in service.
2. When you find a service organization that is both honest and competent, consider yourself blessed and stick with them! You might well consider that subsequent auto purchase decisions should be strongly influenced by the availability of such a service organization.
The worst service experiences I've had would curl your hair. One was with Citroen, now mercifully gone from the US market. The other was with Subaru in 1980, a remarkably poorly made vehicle made into an unmitigated disaster by Subaru's local servide organization that had one foot in jail and the other on a banana peel. That was well before Subaru achieved its now excellent reputation, but I still can't rid myself of ill will toward the brand.
-Larry
Naples, NY
I like the van so far (1700 miles). The gas mileage is not very good. I have seen a few posts in reference to the 3.8.
I am also wondering if there is some place for after market stuff for the 2002 DGC. I am not sure what I would want, but would like to browse.
A while back someone posted how to disable the thing. It was either in this discussion or a related one.
I followed the procedure, and it worked fine. The beeper is in the lift gate handle -- you have to use a torx driver to access it. It was simple -- you have to clip a wire.
As I recall, there are several (maybe 3) wires running to what was obviously the beeper on the left. Unfortunately, I don't recall the color of the one to clip.
If you can figure out how to search the content of posts for keywords, search on "torx" and I'll bet you can find it (I don't know how to do this).
When I pull into a crowded campground after 10pm and start unloading, the other residents are really grateful I disabled the dang thing.
--rolfe.