Lexus LS 400/LS 430

wwest · August 2001

I wear bifocals all the time and it was a dissapointment to discover that the GUI icons for radio and A/c on the 2001 nav screen were so much smaller and of lower contrast than the 2000 LCD that I must lean forward in order to discern most of the readings.

I can't say about the LS but on the RX I can turn off the moving map display but I can't find a way to have the ancillary icons remain in place, so I must "hit" some function to have these icons displayed to check the condition/status of these functions.... DAMN NUISANCE!

Oh, if my computer fails I have numerous resources I can call on to fix it. Lexus, at customer_satisfaction_inquiries@lexus.com, doesn't seem to know its "behind" from a hole in the ground, for every inquiry their answer is the positional inaccurracy of the GPS signal.

And yes, I have had it simply wonder off and get completely lost even with it indicating a strong GPS signal. Thankfully I almost immediately recognized that it was leading me astray and used my own sense of direction to get us back on the right route. THEN it figured out where it was supposed to be going.

lenscap · August 2001

Thanks for all the nav responses, I appreciate it. I'll make a decision as the time gets closer to purchase.

One more question: how does the nav work when you are using both the nav and the CD player? If the screen is showing a map, do you then have to switch to a different screen to change a song, etc.?

jeffmust2 · August 2001

Lenscap -

Yup, you get to switch to a different screen for CD sounds. All such functions need the one display unit.

It's not perfect, I agree. But as far as the Lexus Nav system in my wife's 2001 RX goes, she'll never buy another vehicle without it or a similar unit.

Of course, if you and/or a Significant Other NEVER drive somewhere where the route is unfamiliar, or you have to take alternative routes because of traffic problems...then you'd have no NAV requirement.

For example, I KNOW where I'm going when I visit my regular clients - but I use the NAV anyway so I be on the cell phone all the time and not have to even look at the road ahead of me (:()!

bitkahuna · August 2001

Jeff, that's not true on my GS400 (and presumably LS as well).

lens - there's physical rocker buttons for next/prev track (does tuning too), next/prev CD (does seek too), which operate whether you've got audio, nav, or climate displayed. If you've got the map going and press the 'next track' (which on the 2001 GS and LS is also on the steering wheel), a 'pop-up' box shows up briefly over the map showing the new track # and cd #. It works great.

Same goes for changing climate for example, while the map or audio is on. Pressing temp up/down (real rocker) button shows a pop up briefly with the new setting.

It's cake.

seadog7 · August 2001

I almost did not get a "custom" because it forced me to get NAV, I feature I did not want at all. I have a good sense of direction and seldom get lost. I looked at NAV as just another complicated gizmo for people who can't read maps that will lower the car's MTBF. Wow was I wrong. It is intuitive and accurate. Within 75 yards of leaving the planned route to avoid a traffic jam the system comes up with a new route. Also, numbered steet addresses, which are hard to find on most paper maps, are a piece of cake for NAV. The system did require me to get bifocal sunglsses. I just worry that the update DVD's will cost an arm and a leg.

drcomputer · August 2001

Haven't you all read the screen that you must hit "I agree" to every time you start the car??? It says, in not so few words, USE YOUR BRAIN. Yes, the NAV system can be imperfect, but it is FAR SUPERIOR to using a paper Thomas Guide (for west coast people). With the updated DVD (which Lexus says will be delivered sometime this fall), it should be more accurate with new street additions. Here in Los Angeles, it is almost always correct, except for brand new streets that don't exist on the DVD yet. The Lexus NAV system is far easier to use that that of MB, Infiniti, or Acura. The problem that Lexus has is that most luxury car buyers tend to be older and not as technology savvy. (I am the exception to that rule as I am a young LS430 owner). The people that could most use a NAV system are younger buyers in more cost conscious cars. But most people who buy a Honda Civic aren't going to spend an extra $3000 for a NAV option (if it even existed). So for now, I will be the "gen X'r" who loves his NAV system in his Ultra Lux LS430.

lateralg · August 2001

A slick feature is the ability to locate yourself to within a second of latitude and longitude.

Go to 'Destination' > 'Emergency' and the data are displayed.

FYI: One second of latitude ~ 100ft.
One degree of longitude ~ 69 miles @ equator, and 0 at the poles.

I checked out the north-south dimension of my yard, which according to survey is 300'. I got a three second difference. Cool.

wwest · August 2001

Thomas guide nor mapquest has NEVER mislead me to believe they could "route" me to my destination and then dropped me off in never never land somewhere in between.

The only safe way to use the Lexus Nav outside of the 50 major urban areas is to first double check it against a Thomas Guide or Mapquest. I might get lost in a major city but there will always be someone to ask directions of, not so out there in the toolies.

bitkahuna · August 2001

we all know you hate the nav system, but it won't leave you LOST. It may given bad directions once in a while, but you're not lost. You can always zoom out and see a state road, or some town, or even lake or something. No way you can be lost with it.

wwest · August 2001

You are right of course, regardless of how lost I might think I am I will always likely still be on planet Earth (or is it planet Huston?).

I have neevr said I hated the Lexus Nav, I simply do not understand why Lexus gives no response to my inquiries about what are clearly serious software BUGS other than blame it on GPS inaccurracies.

I think I have said before there have been times that I have used the system quite successfully, but the times it has failed me are basically inexcuseable and thus I have learned to never trust it.

I have had people in New England, Boston, intentionally give me bad directions, I really don't need help of that kind from a machine!

garyct · August 2001

I've heard that the price will be going up $200 and there will be a new color it is called "Platinum Blue Metallic". Sounds like it would be a nice color for this car, I hope there are some other interior options availble too.

Gary

bitkahuna · August 2001

"I have learned to never trust it."

Right, but you're also the guy who doesn't trust the climate control because it might fog your windshield or (in your view) reduce your on-ramp acceleration capability.

Gotta say it man - you seem somewhat of a control freak.

jgwaltney · August 2001

Black on Black, Certified LS w/ 32,000 miles with Nav package
Dealer asking $36,900 (possibly buy for around $35-35,500
Thoughts on this price for a 98?

wwest · August 2001

I'll gladly accept the charge about windshield fogging... that was definitely me. Now, about on-ramp acceleration...

I remember someone else asking if the A/C compressor could be disabled in some fashion and I responded that I thought it was already on WOT.

And yes, you're likely right, when a car company advertises themselves as "relentlessly pursuring perfection" I expect them to at least pay some minimal attention to their own customer's complaints.

Also, in the industry in which I work every day customer feedback is the absolute best way I know to facilitate product improvement.

So, you can certainly (continue to) ignore my rantings and ravings, but I still have some hope that someone, somewhere out there, is listening.

stevestein · August 2001

Some more input on the Nav - two ways where I have found it really pays...
There are many places that I go to infrequently, e.g. a cousins house I visit once or twice a year. I really only know how to get there from my house. On the last visit I entered it as a destination, and now if I wanted to I could get there from a completely different direction without getting lost.

last week traffic was bumper-to-bumper and barely moving on a main road not in my normal driving area. The Nav showed which local streets could be used as a bypass to snake around the problem area and get to where i was going. Probably saved over 1/2 an hour getting about 1 mi down the road.

It's easy to think of the Nav as a toy, and it's not perfect. After you've had it a while it justifies itself.

I got my LS after having 2 MB's and seriously considering an S-430. This is a pretty common decision that the first time Lexus buyers go through. In the end it boiled down to my perception of a better overall car at a significant savings. Others to whom the $'s weren't much of a factor went with the LS on their assessment it was a better car than the S (and S500 at that). If you want to invest the time you can go back through this discussion and follow the thoughts of others facing the same decision.

re: the audio controls. There are controls for the audio system built into the audio head unit and the steering wheel. I haven't hit a situation yet where I had no option other than to use the video display controls.

flint350 · August 2001

While admitting, as before, that no system like this is perfect, what are these software "bugs" you keep referring to? Certainly, slight-occasional inaccuracies in position while in the boonies is annoying, but it's not a bug. The system never claims to be 100% perfect and states clearly that it is most functional and detailed and accurate in the urban areas in which it is most often used. And these are many. I travel with it a lot and very, very seldom find it lacking.

So what are these "clearly serious bugs" you mention? Especially since they cause you to "never trust it". That is serious, indeed, and I would like to see if my system exhibits such erratic behavior. Bitkahuna's suggestion of zooming out is certainly a good one and useful. I do it myself, often, if in doubt. It is no different than looking at a paper map with detail inserts. And the paper map is no more accurate than its most recent printing either. Just like the nav. database.

If these serious problems exist and Lexus is ignoring you, that is wrong and should be addressed. But if your complaint is nothing more than the database being less detailed in very remote areas, then the Lexus answer sounds correct.

I agree with the majority here, that this system is very useful, intuitive and mostly accurate. It is subject to limitations which should diminish with each passing upgrade. But serious bugs, not in my experience. It is far and away better than the Command system of MBenz. Please feel free to continue to "rant and rave" as you say, we all do - but be prepared to explain your complaint of serious software bugs.

bitkahuna · August 2001

You are definitely right to expect Lexus to respect your opinions as their customer, and they shouldn't 'blow you off'.

I think we should just agree that the nav system isn't perfect, but we disagree as to how 'imperfect' it is.

stripedcat · August 2001

What is the going rate for the Lexus Extended Warranty ? I have a LS 430 Ultra and am thinking of getting one. Any Sugestion is appreciated. Thanks.

wwest · August 2001

I would never expect any mapping system to be "complete".

Software BUG #1

I enter an address north of Monroe WA, 23 miles away, and the system "seems" to successfully compute a route and we head off relying on the system to guide us. 3 miles from our destination, along the "computed" route, the system pops up and tells me to use the compass to find my final destination. Later I find that the system has NO map resolution at all in that specific area.

Then how and why did the software "think" it had successfully computed a route when it should have "known" no road existed (as far as it was concerned) to the final destination.

Software BUG #2

I am using the system for guidance to a destination and we begin travelling on a roadbed which parallels I5 for a mile or so. Suddenly the system starts giving me instructions as if I am actually on I5. Now, the system software guided me to the very roadbed I was travelling on, why would it "jump" me to I5 unless there is a flaw in the system software?

Software BUG #3

This one is somewhat undefineable since my experience has been that on a few rare occassions the system just plain becomes lost. Once on the way to Bellingham I had it guide me to I5 and then just as I joined that roadbed it decided I should do a "legal U turn", and the map indicated that it now wanted me to head back east again.

Some design flaws IMO:

When the Nav system is not being used the ancillary function's (audio, A/C, OAT) status should be continously displayed, and at a contrast level and icon/charactor size compariable to the non-nav LCD. Displaying the moving map itself is somewhat of a distraction, which I can easily ignore. But forcing me in this way to needlessly take an action to discover the status of one of the ancillary functions is just plain poor design and clearly an unnecessary distraction.

My actual preference would be to only bring up the moving map display if the Nav system is active and I am approaching a decision point. OR if I touch MAP have it come up about the length of time the audio display does now.

fxashun · August 2001

wwest · August 2001

Actually in both cases I was going "UP" I5.

lateralg · August 2001

"My actual preference would be to only bring up the moving map display if the Nav system is active and I am approaching a decision point. OR if I touch MAP have it come up about the length of time the audio display does now."

Have you tried:
1)DISPLAY > SCREEN OFF
2)INFO > SCREEN TRANSITION > AUTO FROM AUDIO AND A/C?

With the screen off, hitting any function's hard button (Climate, Audio ,Map) will bring up that screen for several seconds, then return to screen off. If you don't want to wait the several seconds, hit the hard button again & the screen goes off.

With screen off, audible route directions continue if you're in guidance mode.

wwest · August 2001

My final answer was to eject the DVD from the player and then it doesn't even ask me to be sure and ignore it when it tries to get my attention.

If I want to, or have need to use the Nav I simply re-insert the DVD.

Again, if I'm not using the Nav, which for me (maybe all of us?) is the majority of the time, why not leave all of the ancillary displays up continuously just like is done in the non-nav LCD?

Just think for a moment how an RX300 user/owner would feel if the non-Nav LCD panel went blank after a few seconds. For what reason? Wouldn't you charactorize that as a definite design flaw?

lateralg · August 2001

We clearly have different views. I very much like and value the Lexus Navigation system. It seems that you have valid reasons to dislike it. I'll make no attempt to have the last word, so go for it.

bitkahuna · August 2001

I think your only experience with the nav is on the RX300, is that right?

It sounds like it operates differently than the one in the GS and LS.

Specifically, there's absolutely NO need to remove the DVD from the drive on the LS and GS as far as I know. On my older GS system, if I leave the display in audio (radio or CD) control mode or climate mode, I will NEVER see anything to do with the nav at all.

wwest · August 2001

Yes, my only real experience, other than test drives of the GS and LS430, is with the RX.

But I thought that I remembered, at least in the LS, having to "hit" the "I agree" (to ignore you and not let you distract me regardless of how hard you try) button each time I started the car.

That's why I eject the DVD, if I'm not planning to use the Nav, and using it does take planning, this way it never even asks me the stupid question.

flint350 · August 2001

I don't believe your 1st problem to be a "software bug" at all, but rather a system limitation of detail. When you travel to an area that exceeds the detail limits for "turn by turn" direction, the system reverts to the compass arrow to keep you pointed in the correct general direction while unable to give specific turn by turn guidance. This is not a bug, just a limit of how much detail can be provided. The green arrow will help you in choosing the correct road to continue in the correct direction. After all, if it's that rural, how many road choices can there be? (Also, I assume you zoomed in to the full 1/16 mile range to see all possible roads - those displayed in the gold color are the ones that can't be used for turn by turn).

Your 2nd problem (remember, I don't know this area at all and am just guessing from your provided info) seems to be a GPS overlay issue. Your 2 roads might be sufficiently close and parallel to fool the system slightly. GPS resolution has its limits, especially when overlayed on a map with closely parallel running streets, etc. This same thing has happened to me when a road crew creates a temp. detour slightly parallel to the original road for a short stretch - the system (not knowing the road change) can be fooled by the proximity into thinking I'm on a close-by parallel freeway briefly.

I'm unclear on how #3 differs from #2 and think it is a similar issue. None of these are faults or bugs, IMO. They are limits inherent in any such system. As the book says, you have to temper all guidance with common sense (as you apparently recognized the incorrect info quickly). Any road map might not provide any better info, given changes and updates and the detail in such areas would most assuredly be less than in more populated areas.

As for the "I agree" - you must understand that this is strictly a legal issue for Lexus. They have to protect themselves from the obvious and expected law suits when some idiot crashes and blames it on the car and its systems. Benz reportedly was sued by some old lady who said the radar cruise didn't prevent her from hitting the car in front of her.

Maybe the design could be different for your preferences, but I like it fine. It would be nice if Lexus could design these things to make us all happy, but that just isn't in our lifetime. You can turn off the nav screen as several others have suggested and can adjust the transition screens as well. Actually, I'm not sure why you would want the screen to continuously display climate info - it's really set and forget type stuff. But,I respect your differing views on much of this, while I agree with bitkahuna, who said, "we just disagree on how imperfect it is." I think it's far closer than you do. It rarely, if ever, steers me wrong and generally provides a wealth of info, but maybe one day they'll improve it along the lines you suggest. More voice interaction would help as well as allowing any passenger to directly input new information.

feverhart · August 2001

Looks like wwest is in control and I don't know why. An amusing dialog.

bitkahuna · August 2001

My nav system only asks for the 'I agree' if I left my car in nav mode when I previously stopped the car, or if I select nav after startup or while driving. If I leave it on the CD audio screen (or just 'off') then I don't see the legalese unless I press destination or map buttons.

Again, that's how it is on my 2K GS400 (hard drive) system.

So on the DVD system it prompts with the legalese EVERY time the car is started regardless of whether the nav was being used before?

lateralg · August 2001

2001 Lexus GS 430:

If screen "Off" at shut down, no legaleese "I Agree" on next start up.

It starts with big "LEXUS", tells status of Audio for a brief period, then goes blank.

wwest · August 2001

Sorry, I'va been in the computer business since about 69. I can accept, but not gladly, a gap in the Nav map coverage, what I cannot accept is a software system that "successfully" computes a route where, as for as it is concerned, no road, route, actually exists. I have no doubt at all that this is a software bug, the least it should do is caution me that there is a gap in the coverage and thus give me the choice, before I start out, of making other guidance arrangements.

GPS overlay issue?

Look, the Lexus Nav system actually guided me, about 15 miles or more from guidance starting point, to the point on the parallel roadbed. Now, if I had "started up", initialized, the system at that point then I could understand that it would have to rely on the GPS (in-)accurracy to locate itself, but it plotted, computed, the route from the getgo, and I never deviated from its guidance until it suddenly "jumped" me to I5.

Common sense...I couldn't agree more.

But if the system can get this lost, wanting to turn me around 180 degrees from my destination, what would I/you do if you were in a completely unfamiliar area and the system lost track of itself in this manner. How long would any of us wonder around under false guidance before we realized the system itself was lost.

Climate control status.... I'm married.

When we're in the LS my wife can set the temperature on side and forget it. In the RX she is constantly "suspecious" that the reason she is cold is becuase the A/C is set too low.

But that is really not the point, how would you like it if, in order to read the speedometer you had to needlessly "call it up". That's why I feel as I do about "blanking" the screen and not showing the anceillary functions continuously.

Think about it, if you were the designer of this system would you default (when Nav is not being used) as Lexus has, to having the moving map displayed continously, or would you default to displaying the ancillary functions continuously. Which of these is the operator most likely to want to refer to in these circumstances?

I am of course prejudiced by having owned a non-nav 2000 RX wherein the LCD always shows these conditions.

flint350 · August 2001

As I said, I was/am unfamiliar with your experience level with this equipment and with your particular location. I was trying to be helpful by suggesting possible reasons for the bugs you saw. Others I have talked with were unaware of the zoomed-in gold colored roads that were unavailable for turn by turn and they innocently assumed major errors in the system.
My system has sent me to rural areas of little detail, but fully zoomed always showed the majority of the roads despite losing turn guidance. So I guess I just haven't had the problems you are experiencing - and which should be addressed, if at all possible, by Lexus.

As for the prefs, sorry, but I actually would prefer the map (former pilot, need constant re-assurance of situational awareness). Having a constant display of the climate seems useless to me. I would refer to the map more often (which I can control by voice) and less so the climate settings. But that's just me. Sorry for the confusion though, I was just trying to be helpful.

greasykid1 · August 2001

Looking for info on extended warranty from Lexus. Has anyone bought one & if so what did you get for what price. Know that most factory warranties have approx 50% discount to the selling dealer.

Appreciate any and all help. Plan to keep this car well beyond the end of the 50000 factory warranty.

agent0986 · August 2001

what are the actual functions of the Ect Pwr/snow button in the LS430? acceleration doesnt seem to be affected that much when the power mode is selected.

robh3 · August 2001

Saw a beautiful dark blue LS Ultra Lux today at a local dealer with aftermarket 18" wheels and tires. I haven't seen one on the road yet with aftermarket wheels and have been wondering what the '01 would look like with such a set-up. (Very good).

Also, hadn't seen this beautiful dark blue until this one.

This particular car was in the showroom and the rep let me sit in it because I asked to listen to the ML stereo. With the Nav system (not in operational mode) the only controls I could find for the stereo was the volume knob. I didn't have a CD with me and so I could only listen to the radio. Knowing from this forum that the car "leaks" sound pretty badly from the stereo (even with all doors and windows shut) I was reluctant to turn up to volume much. One realy needs a CD to truly get the value from such a system, so frankly I didn't find it to be any more impressive than the Bose 425 watt system in my car. I'll have to test it again sometime under different circumstances.

bitkahuna · August 2001

Power mode doesn't kick in more power (why would the engine deliver LESS power in normal mode?) - it's simply a transmission programming setting.

In PWR mode the car will shift down a gear with less additional pressure on the gas pedal (I drive my GS in PWR mode all the time - I don't like how reluctant the trans is to shift from 5th to 4th for example).

In Snow mode the car will always pull away in 2nd. Don't know what else it does.

lateralg · August 2001

I SUSPECT that, in addition to what is said in previous posts, the different modes change the input/output curve of the accelerator pedal/throttle opening.

I believe the system is drive-by-wire. This would allow electronic tailoring of the curve. i.e. in power mode, a lot of throttle opening for a little pedal movement; in snow mode, very gradual throttle opening.

When riding as a passenger in a GS 430, I changed the modes. Although I believe the driver was pretty consistent, I sensed a more aggressive acceleration in power mode, a very conservative acceleration in snow mode, and in-between in std. mode.

wwest · August 2001

More "power" because the ECT shift pattern (vs non-ECT) tends to keep the engine RPM closer to the peak torque area of the full range torque band.

And for all we know, as owners/users, Lexus does change the engine dynamics (valve, intake, mixture ratio) "patterns" in ECT mode.

wwest · August 2001

and Situational Awareness....

Unless I am really seriously out-of-date the only mode of travel allowed in a ground based vehicle is strictly VFR. Certainly, on the ground, ALL of the IMPORTANT situational awareness cues are outside the "cockpit".

For VFR I was taught to spent MOST of my time with my eyes OUTSIDE the cockpit, not re-awakening intruments that had gone to sleep while I was not watching.

I applaud Lexus, sincerely, for their design decision to allow me to suppress the moving map display in favor of voice only guidance. That's really the way I have driven for almost 38 years now, with my wife acting as the navigator. I mean NO humor in that statement, she handles the maps and I handle the driving.

We sold our 210 over ten years ago now so I have had no opportunity to fly IFR with today's GPS moving map technology, I can fully imagine it is a wonderful tool and a tremendous stress reliever.

But I still remember my instructors VFR statement, "see and be seen, keep your eyes outside, ahead of the airplane, spend an absolute minimum of time scanning the instruments"

If you are in a ground based vehicle and using the NAV for any substantial level of situational awareness cues then you should turn in your driving license immediately. If you're married have your wife "read the map" while you pay full attention to your VFR Situational Awareness cues.

By the way, as a former pilot, how do you feel about all of these people who want to play DVD's on their NAV screen. Scary, isn't it?

flint350 · August 2001

I certainly agree with that last statement about the use of DVD's in the nav. I can't really imagine a useful (or safe) method of doing that in any meaningful way. As for the situational awareness part - I disagree, simple as that. Of course, I'm not talking about staring at it ("using the nav for any substantial level"), but it can be safely referenced while driving under the proper conditions ("here comes that road/exit I was looking for", etc.) That's what scanning the instruments does in flight or scanning the chart for reference. Driving is certainly more intense and hands-on, but there are appropriate ways to do the same thing. Certainly a good copilot/navigator/spouse is preferred, but not essential, IMO. It's all in how you accomplish it.

I have some time in 210's, great a/c, but talk about design flaws. There were a few in the earlier models, I recall (vacuum pumps, gear problems, alternator and fuel system). But fast for a single. Still, I miss my LongRanger.

wwest · August 2001

Years ago I was given a speeding ticket via a WSP operating VFR in marginal conditions. He was a no-show in court. I think primarily becuase I made it very plain my questions to him in court would be centered around his primary responsibility under the FAA VFR rules, see and be seen.

I can't imagine that he had time to properly fly that airplane, watch me down on the roadbed, and at the same time have his stopwatch at the ready when I crossed the "marker".

In case there is a question bout this, I had been on cruise control for some 50 miles, just 2 or 3 miles over the limit, and yet my ticket was written for 15 over. I absolutely KNOW he didn't have enough time to truly pay attention to all of his responsibilities that day.

And now I would like you to think, really, about the amount of time your eyes are off the outside view, even if you are lucky enough to have 20/20 vision, while you "reference" the moving map display for that exit coming up. I assume your statement is made about this factor using the moving map display in inactive mode, as in active mode the "voice" gives you lots of warning about an upcoming "event".

flint350 · August 2001

Since this is so off topic, I will just say this briefly and be done with it. I know something about flying law enforcement missions and I strongly doubt you would have had a case on the pilot's duties under the FAR's. (You didn't mention (know?) if he had an observer with him.) You surely might have been mistreated by the inaccurate ticket, but that is a separate issue from the FAR's. You really don't KNOW whether the cop was able to pay attention to his duties (though not a cop, I have flown similar multi-tasking missions - and when giving ck. rides it is standard to introduce distractions to determine the pilot's ability to deal with them safely). And this is further evidence of our "agree to disagree" stance on the nav usage in the car.

BTW, yes, of course I use the voice mode, but I also reference the map when not under active nav and I don't do it in a way I believe to be unsafe. We differ on that. Now, cell phones, that's a different animal!!!

Anyway, way off topic, so I'm done, but you're free to have the last word if you wish.

bitkahuna · August 2001

wwest - sounds like you're saying no one should ever look at the moving map display while driving - give me a break. We look at stereo and climate settings and controls, and when your wife's not in the car, since you consider the nav so 'buggy', I assume you occasionally look at a paper map or directions while driving, or do you actually get off the road to look?

Anyway, when I use the nav, I listen to the voice cues, but sure I look at the map just to see how far I am from my destination and to see graphically what the turn/intersection looks like.

And driving a car is NOT the same as flying a plane.

ljflx · August 2001

Back from Longboat Key today but my heart is still there. Fell in love with the place and am seriously considering buying some land there. But the prices are sky high. The place is the 5th wealthiest zipcode in the U.S. and surprise surprise it's loaded with LS430's and S-430/500's but I hardly saw any 7's. Guess that's Florida.

I see we have had a lot of action here and another LS430 vs. S-class potential buyer. Many of us have been that route and went with the LS and are real glad we did. Hope you make the right choice.

Bitkahuna - seems like the host on the S-class board got very defensive of the S in response to what I thought was another one of your great posts.

bitkahuna · August 2001

Thanks... I think you're referring to Drew's 'defense' as to why S-Classes cost $10K or more MORE than an LS. And did you read that post he gave a link to?! That was ludicrous. The guy said that the extra cost is basically related to safety (which he said you don't get with Japanese cars because they're designed to be cheap), that Japanese cars just copy German features, and that German quality glitches are justified because they innovate.

And I've got some prime beach real estate in Longboat Key for sale for $500 an acre...

seadog7 · August 2001

I love the NAV, limitations and all. For those who don't, turn off the screen and select the option to not have the transient screens automatically revert to the map display after a delay. That way the AUDIO display stays on all the time and you will not get the "legal" screen.

Does anyone know how much the update DVD's are?

sfmartin · August 2001

As I understand it, the first two are free. :<}

wwest · August 2001

I actually don't know if the WSP was alone, or now don't remember, I asked the court to issue supenas to both parties, ground and flying, the ground officer showed up but not the pilot.

And by the way I am well aware that I would have had no case at all if he had a partner, and thus there would have been no "post".

On the day in question the officer was operating "special VFR" below the cloud cover and had actually been warned, twice, out of the area for other VFR traffic following I90. He was in a hilly area of rising terain just east of the Cascades.

FARs... If he were in an collision accident, of any kind, given the knowledge of his WSP duties, would there be any question at all of fault?

Checking the map....

Other than this map, there is no interior intrument or indicator that takes more than a glance to read or determine its "status". Whereas actually reading the map takes some fairly intense effort to find and focus on the specific area of interest within the map display.

And to answer someone's question, no, I cannot remember a time when I tried to read anything while driving the car. However, I do use a non-hands-free cell phone on a regular basis but I must admit that sometimes it takes me several miles to complete dialing a number.

Oh, I never rose to the level of instructor but I would bet strong odds that any intructor introducting a "distraction" inside the cockpit would then have his eyes wide OPEN otherwise, knowing he had just distracted the PIC/student from his primary duties.

And yes, driving a car is not the same as flying a plane. I used the analogy to point out that when flying IFR conditions one would be expected to refer to a GPS moving map display as a primary cue for situational awareness.

But flying VFR is very much like driving in that ALL of your situational awareness cues are out there in front of the windshield. I would even agree that in many cases they can be more time in VFR flying, the aircraft "stabilized", to scan intruments, than while driving a car, which can never be "stabilized".

Off-topic...

I don't think so. While I think Lexus, along with many other manufacturers, are clearly mistaken in providing such a serious distraction source with the moving map display, there is nothing any of us can do to correct this at the moment. I think it is very contructive to use these posts to caution Lexus owners and drivers about the possible hazards of using them in an improper manner.

I am reminded of an intructor's statement in a motorcycle defensive driver's course. Automobile drivers are constantly scanning, sometimes somewhat subconsiously, the roadbed and areas ahead for "threats", in doing this there is a tremendous level of visual cues and information coming at them constantly, all this information must be analized and filtered by the brain before any "corrective" action can be taken.

Automobile drivers feel somewhat protected by the metal surrounding them and thus an on-rushing motorcycle doesn't always rise to the level of "threat" to them, as would another car, as it ALWAYS is to that motorcycle rider.

So... be careful out there.

lenscap · August 2001

Thanks for all of your nav feedback. It is a great help, and I'm leaning toward getting the system on the 2002 ES 300. Here are a few more questions:

1. When playing a CD, what's on the screen?
2. During normal driving with the radio/CD off what's on the screen?
3. If I program a trip from, say, Dallas to St. Louis and then stop for gas (and turn the car off), will I have to reprogram the trip when I restart the car? Or will the map pick up where it left off?

Thanks in advance for all responses.

ljflx · August 2001

Yes that was the post and the article was ridiculous. Given his defensiveness which I've seen a number of times Drew must have an S somewhere in his family. As for the article the author must think people have no brains. The car is more expensive for two simple reasons - it cost quite a bit more to build because European labor and social costs are more expensive than Japanese employee costs and Mercedes is a symbol of status and can charge more. In addition Toyota has always had a lot of robotic automation in the LS line which helps keep its build costs down. I'm not sure if that's the case with other Lexus models. Mercedes cut the profit margins of dealers a few years ago because they were afraid any discounting would hurt that brand image/status. As well they had to make back some of the money that they lost when they were generous enough to cut S prices(I'd say forced but some people can't handle it). Those profit margins are pretty thin for dealers and it would get pretty interesting to see what would happen if sales start to slow.

By the way I also think Lexus is putting its money into things that people appreciate all the time. Note the better radios (the ML blows away MB's Bose), the better nav system (is it even discussable) whereas MB is putting money into things like ABC which are fine for bragging rights but hardly important in everyday driving. I've said it before and I'll say it again - I'd rather spend my money on things you can enjoy 100% of the time rather than 1% of the time.

As for the land - you left off 3 or 4 zeros depending on location but the 5 is accurate.

Lexus LS 400/LS 430

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