Volvo S60

qbrozen · December 2004

yeah, lexusguy and I kind of got sidetracked.

You are right about the XC90 and its acceleration (almost same discussion as above regarding the S60 models). Its marginally better than the 2.5T in the lower end and suffers a couple miles per gallon penalty in the process (not to mention the price difference). Although I am typically all about more power, I had decided back when they came out that, if we were to buy an XC90, it would be the 2.5 and not the T6.

lexusguy · December 2004

If you're looking for the space of a luxury soft roader, I would have to recommend an RX330 over an XC90. The RX is very quick, it can keep up with an ML500 no problem, and yet can get around 20-22mpg. The RX owns the segment for a reason, its a plain fabulous car. Being freshly redesigned, the RX also has a bunch of features not available on XC90 (back up camera, active headlights, etc.)

volvomax · December 2004

The only way an RX330 could keep up w/ an ML500 would be if you stuck one of the Space Shuttles solid rocket boosters on the back end.
Otherwise the RX is a fine car. XC90 is more spacious and has a better cargo capacity.

guyf · December 2004

We drove ours with the headrests up all the time, no problem but there is a switch in the dash to lower them if you prefer.

aeg · December 2004

Funny man volvomax. I can see you guys are serious about your cars. Appreciate your input.
Considering the 8cyl.XC90 or 60R on a OSD. Although in looking at the infiniti G35 became interested in the soon to arrive M35. Although if I am not mistaken that will be in the $45-50,000 far too much for me to consider.In addition is it reasonable to assume the new S80 will not arrive before summer of 2006.

grantchstr · December 2004

One problemo old son - the ML 500 LOOKS like an English Post Office Van (when I was a student I bought a well used one for £25). All those ML 300/400/500 vans are the biggest rip-off IMHO. I find it frankly amazing so may folks are willing to pay a lot of dough for essentially a panel VAN with a Mercedes emblem. Thats one expensive emblem!

http://hometown.aol.co.uk/garykirby9/images/new%20post%20office%2- - - - - 0van.jpg

lexusguy · December 2004

"The only way an RX330 could keep up w/ an ML500 would be if you stuck one of the Space Shuttles solid rocket boosters on the back end."

Afraid that is incorrect. I just read 7.6 seconds for RX330, and 7.4 seconds for ML500. The RX330 weighs less than some midsize luxury sedans, and the german tanks weigh as much as well, Panzer tanks. The ML500 has almost 1,000lbs over the RX330, and only 58 more ponies to move them. Maybe the ML should get the booster rocket eh? Thanks to a curb weight of only 4,065lbs, the RX has no trouble with the German V8s (most likely the XC90 V8 as well), and it can get 24mpg on the highway, something those leviathans can only dream of.

RX400h comes in April, with 270hp, 7 seconds flat to 60, and 35mpg+ in the city. No wonder Porsche is all over it for Cayenne.

lev_berkovich · December 2004

Guys,
Am I on a correct board? I thought for a moment that I went to the SUV discussion.

But, if I am on an SUV board, why are we so concerned about 0.2 seconds from 0 to 60. Reading some messages, I think that quite a few people just can not make their minds about what type of vehicle they want, and therefore, we constantly talk about trucks with a performance of Formula 1.

qbrozen · December 2004

the v8 xc90 starts at over $46k, so if the $45-$50K price of the M35 (is that right? you mean the M45? Cause that starts at $43k), then the v8 xc90 would be out of your range, too.

The S60R at least has some discounting going on now. Not sure when that will happen with the v8 xc90.

qbrozen · December 2004

normally I'd agree with you, lev, but, you gotta admit, with vehicles like the FX45 and Porsche Cayenne, to name a couple, the line gets more and more blurry everyday. As a matter of fact, I was just observing an FX45 parked next to a lincoln towncar today. the Infinity is not much taller at all.

lev_berkovich · December 2004

I know, and that what bothers me. Surely, the automakers will cave into any consumer's whim...

But this creates a huge waist of resources on a global scale, when you try to "teach a hyppo run like a rabbit". In your example, FX45 has very little extra U and S over the Lincoln. And I need an SUV with a lot of U and some decent S. That's why I bought XC90 2.5T AWD

And, as usually, this is just my opinion.

volvomax · December 2004

Yes, it is reasonable to assume that the next S80 won't be here before summer 2006.
Also will be @ $50,000 as well.

If you want an XC90 V8 via OSD, better get your order in now.

lev_berkovich · December 2004

To continue my thoughts:

If I need a V i will buy a sport coupe or performance sedan. If my preference is an S, I will go with Rover, Jeep or Toyota Landcruser, there is more decent contenders in the U area.

Modern crossovers try to come-up with the compromises, but none, in my opinion, has completely succeeded.

BMW, for instance, even dropped U all together and replaced it with A. Infinity still has U, but their "a lot of room" constitutes four golf bags and a cooler.

Same with Volkswagen/Porsche. These vehicles are relatively large from outside, but pretty limited with a cargo. Though some Porsche have sooo much V.

Volvo XC90 was one of the best compromises for us, with emphasis on U, and decent S and V, + unmatched second S(afety).

lev_berkovich · December 2004

It is a steep jump from base $35K now. I believe you can easily get a nicely loaded S80 AWD at or under $40K through OSD.

aeg · December 2004

My search for the right car has created some related and tangential discussion. I have real ambivalent feelings about buying any SUV type vehicle, car or truck frame. My main concerns are safety,sufficient leg room and having enough power for ordinary maneuvers. As previously discussed I thought the 2.5 was underpowered in the low and higher ranges. I have an XC70 and find the car has more than sufficient power to merge on a highway as well as make quick passes. I am curious Lev you have not found the 2.5 lacking in this area. This is as much a safety issues as air bags. The S80 is tired and depreciates quickly. I am reluctant to buy a car for $40,000 that depreciates so quickly. depreciation will only accelerate with the release of the new S80. Finally having had Volvos for over 25 years it is hard to consider other cars. AS you all might know the OSD program offers an 8% discount making the vehicle close to 42,000. If the 2.5T had a bit more power that would be enough for me. Would not consider altering the chip. will test drive the 60R, small back seat and all just to see if I could make it work. Does the S60-AWD(not r) handle differently than S80? Thanks again.

lexusguy · December 2004

Though they share the same P2 platform bits, the S60 handles very differently than the S80. I've driven the S80 T6. Its quick, but has torque steer problems, and is no sports sedan. It drives about as sporty as a Toyota Camry. Lots of body roll, and the brake pedal is rediculously grabby. Its almost like an on\off switch, which makes smooth stops next to impossible. Also, as you said, being such an old model ('99) depreciation is very bad. I would recommend picking up an '01 for like 1\2 the cost of the new car. '99s and '00s had some issues. The S60 is 1000x more fun to drive.

lev_berkovich · December 2004

We are going on tangent, but I think our readers will survive couple more postings. I understand your concerns, and I can not speak for you, but all the drivers in our family 16, 20, 46 and 47 years old found XC90 2.5T AWD very adequate, when power is concerned. I drive S80 2.9 and I feel that XC90 is more responsive at the lower RPM, and most definetily, it's performance does not post any safety threads as far as traffic merging or highway passing are concerned.

Even my "ambitious BMW stick driver" friend found our new car very smooth and accommodating. It is not a "hot rod" by any stretch, but it was never designed as one.

Can you wait for 2 - 3 more years till a new S80 will be released. That what I am planning to do. My next OSD trip is already planned for the summer 2008 - to replace my current 2000 S80 2.9.

And depreciation does not concern me - one of the reasons for us to buy Volvos - is to drive them for life (of a car of cause) - i.e. for 8 to 10 years, 200K miles, till they either die or pass them on kids and grand kids as their first car.

(By the way I had 2 OSD trips 2000 - for S80 and 2004 for XC90)

lev_berkovich · December 2004

OK, let's be reasonable. S60 and S80 do drive different. S80 is much longer and wider and that shows. But to say that S80 has a lot of body roll and similar to Camry - is a big -big stretch. S80 is always praised for a tight, well controlled ride with a minimal body roll, despite it's pretty large size. It's not as precise as BMW 5 for instance, but what appealed to me right away, when I have switched from mid-size Japanese cars (Camry and Altima) to S80 was a feel of driving a "tank" - very sure-footed and well controlled at high speeds.

When it comes to brakes - you maybe considering taking driving lessons from my 16 years old daughter - she has learned very quickly how to modulate the brakes. Yeas, they a grabby, but it also contributes to relatively short stopping distance for a car with over 4500 lbs of gross weight.

qbrozen · December 2004

Funny this should come up now. Just yesterday I was looking at ads for 2000 S80 T6s with about 46K miles for $16K and couldn't help but find myself pondering trading in my 98 T5 with 95K miles. Thing is, I've never actually driven the 80. Have you ever driven the s70? How would you say the 80 handles compared to that? I've been in the 60 and didn't find that it changed very much from the 70. A bit slower and heavier, but not a substantial difference.

lexusguy · December 2004

I have to say I disagree there. Unless Volvo has changed the steering and suspension tuning since the '01 T6, or added a sport package or something, I didnt get the impression of a tight, well controlled ride. The day I took an S80 T6 out, I drove 5 other cars as well, as I was helping a friend pick out a new car to replace her 300M. Of those cars, an Audi A6 2.7T, Passat 2.8, Nissan Maxima, Acura TL, and Toyota Avalon, the S80 T6 drove the most like the Toyota Avalon, just with more power and some torque steer.

The Passat was the one with the most taught, buttoned down handling, with A6 and TL a close second.

Just read CR's report of the '04 S80 vs, Jag, MB, and BMW: "Handling is sound but the Volvo lacks agility; it feels like a larger car than it is. Despite the firm suspension, the S80 has more body lean in corners than the other cars here. The steering is neither quick nor communicative, and the wide 42-foot turning circle hampers maneuverability in tight situations."

So Im going to take that as no, they didnt change the suspension or steering, as thats the exact same impressions I got from an '01 car. Also a 42 foot turning circle is just plain terrible. Limosines can cut shorter circles than that.

qbrozen · December 2004

CR? As in Consumer Reports? Consumer Reports commenting on performance of vehicles? Yeah, well, I won't say I disagree because, as I just posted, I have no drive the 80, but there is no way on earth I'd take CR's performance evaluation as gospel.

michael10 · December 2004

I am looking for a used 01 or 02 for my mother-in-law. Can anyone out there give me there advise on the reliability of either year and about what type of price I would be looking at for one with under 30k? Any other thoughts would be helpful.

qbrozen · December 2004

base? 2.4T? T5? auto? stick? leather? moonroof?

Well, since its the mother-in-law, I'm going to assume a few things. the 2.4 nonturbo, automatic, leather, bun warmers, sunroof, traction and stability control. An '01 should run you about $18K (based on Edmunds private party number). Maybe up to $18,500 if you want a certified pre-owned (which I strongly urge - that way the reliability one way or the other isn't a huge concern).

lexusguy · December 2004

Might I suggest a 2.4T? If you check the used listings, you really dont save much of anything by getting an older model 2.4 non turbo, and the 2.4T has A LOT more features as standard. If you want more than just the winter package, you're pretty much going to have to get a T5 though. I really havent come across any 2.4Ts that have the HU-803 Dolby stereo with CD changer, the extra cup holder and autodim mirror, or DSTC stability control system. Used T5s seem to add about $2000 to a used car price, but 2.4 and 2.4Ts go for almost the same price, which makes a 2.4T pretty much a no brainer.

michael10 · December 2004

Thanks, I think I would be leaning towards the 2.4T, auto, leather, traction and stability. when did they add awd to the s60? how has the reliabilty been for these models? I would probably have her buy a certified but still would not want it in the shop or having problems with it. $18.5 was that for an 01? would $20 - $23k get her into an 02 or 03?

lexusguy · December 2004

I believe the AWD system was added as an option for '02 cars. Reliability for S60 has generally been pretty good. The initial run of '01s had some minor electrical issues, but those seem to have been worked out, and the car is listed as "recommended" by CR. The price will largely depend on the amount of miles. I've seen '01 T5s range from $15.9 to $23K, depending on just miles. As always, autotrader.com is a fantastic places to gauge real world prices.

pat · December 2004

Another "fantastic" place to gauge real world prices is right here in the discussion at this link: Real-World Trade-In Values.

volvogirl · December 2004

Hello. A week ago I bought a brand new 2005 Volvo S60. It orginally had pin striping which I did not want and the dealer agreed to remove. I knew a little paint was involved, but they did not tell me that my paint would be damaged from the removal. I picked up my car this past Friday and it has small circular scratches all over it! At first I thought that it was a bad wax job, you know that wax was left on my car. Then I realized that they were actually minor scratches from a buffer all over my car!!! I took it back to the dealership on Saturday and they are supposed to try and correct it this week. My question is this, can it be corrected? I feel that the only thing they are going to do is more buffing on the car. To me it seems that the clear coat would be thinned down and I could end up with paint that starts peeling in a few years. The other alternative is to paint it...I know it will never get the same paint job that it got from the manufacturer. I am so upset over this. I own a brand new $30K car, with 600 miles and a bad paint job. Any help or advice anyone could give me would be greatly appreciated.

lev_berkovich · December 2004

I had a similar situation with my dealer who was a bit overzealous with pre-delivery prep and left the same kind of circular scratches all over the major flat surfaces of my S80. I did not do anything, being afraid of further damaging a clear coat. These scratches finally faded away in a year or so, after some number of washes.

Just be patient.

qbrozen · December 2004

sorry, lexusguy, but I definitely gotta disagree with using autotrader as a place to gauge real world prices. My obvious reason being that asking prices are in no way indicative of buying prices. And I think Volvo prices are even moreso difficult to judge this way. Good example is when I bought mine. The closest asking price to what I actually paid was 15% ($3K) over, and the average was $5K over! Luckily, I asked the folks on the board mentioned by the host a couple of messages up and found out that auction prices were WAAYY low. If it wasn't for that, I would have either wound up paying quite a bit more or getting one with several more miles.

michael, i would definitely run the specifics by Terry on the real-world trade-in values board, as the host mentioned.

my $18,5 quote guess was for an '01. I would think you could easily get into an '02 for under $23k. So if that's the price range, just post the details of the '02 you'd be looking for (and miles) on that RWTIV board, and you'll get a much better idea. Just make sure you specify that you are looking to buy it, not trade it in, and you'd be looking for certified.

lexusguy · December 2004

You can find as much as a $10,000 spread for a single model year car on autotrader, depending on the area. You said $18.5K for an '01, and yet you say AT's prices are too high? I've seen '01s on Autotrader for as low as $13K.

qbrozen · December 2004

what kind of miles and options? maybe his mother-in-law could jump on it.

My price was a guess based on using Edmunds private party number as the price for a CPO (cause I have always found Edmunds to be a bit high - so I took a guess that private party price for CPO would be more realistic). And I didn't say autotrader was necessarily too high. Just not a good thing to use to base numbers on. Just like you said, the prices can range drastically.

dmarcus48 · December 2004

those marks are called swirl marks, they have nothing to do with the pin strips, and everything to do with a guy at the dealer who doesn't know how to detail a car. A good reference for detailing is www.autopia.org , any good detailer should be able to minimize the marks.

lexusguy · December 2004

the lowest price I was able to find on AT today in my PA area is $11,400 for a base '01 2.4 with 60K miles at National Motors in Baltimore. Highest is $21,941 for an '01 T5 with 40K miles at Don Beyer Volvo.

qbrozen · December 2004

Yeah, I found some within 50 miles of me in Jersey/Philly/NYC area for down in the $13Ks... but, as you found, that's higher miles. The ones I found also didn't specify any options. I did find more than a few up around $20K optioned just as I mentioned in my original response, with miles in the mid 40s. So its quite possible that $18,5 is still a bit high to pay, but probably not by much. I would think some people would pay more and still be happy with their purchase. Depreciation on these is brutal.

volvogirl · December 2004

Thanks. I looked at the site - some helpful advice. You hit the nail on the head! That is exactly my point - the guy detailing brand new cars does a very poor and sloppy job! I just hope that he hasn't destroyed my clear coat. He did not need to use the harsh abrasives that he did when he removed the pin stipes from my car. He buffed the entire car with something very harsh. My car is currently at the dealership being detailed again. The dealership - who is well known in the area, states that they have been using the guy for a long time and that he does a great job. I told the manager that my car is evidence that he does not. He does not take pride in this work and he did not clean up his mess - there is still wax and polish left on my car! I also noticed some of the cars on the showroom floor have the same swirl marks. They really need to find a new detail man and I have suggested many times that they do just that! It should be a crime to destroy a beautiful paint job on a BRAND NEW CAR!!

dmarcus48 · December 2004

good, I'm glad you spoke up! that detail guy shouldn't be allowed anywhere near a car. A new car doesn't need to be detailed with a buffer.

lexusguy · December 2004

A friend of mine is looking at '01 T5s. Any major service issues he would have to worry about if the car he buys is in the 50-70K range?

qbrozen · December 2004

well, here is the service schedule from Volvo's website:

http://apps.volvocars.us/ownersdocs/2001/2001_maintenance/2001_s6- 0_maintenance.html

I think maybe you are asking about reliability problems, but, just in case you really meant service, there it is.

lexusguy · December 2004

I really did mean service, as when you see a car with say 61,320 miles on it, you want to know what the 60K service was, and wether it was performed.

How is reliability for '01s?

grantchstr · December 2004

I have an early 2001 S60 with 43,000 and its been excellent, just headlights going out (one after the other within a couple of days - hint when one goes repace 'em BOTH at the same time!).

I have the same reliability question about cars with a bunch more miles on 'em. But I will buy the extended warranty I suppose. I had a 7 year warranty on my Landcruiser, why can't Volvo do likewise?

s6025t1 · December 2004

From the moment anything touches your paint you have swirl marks. The best cure for swirl marks is to buy a white car. Other than that, the darker the color the worse it is, especially on bright sunny days. That being said... for me, I wouldn't try for yet another buff job, all that does is attempt to take down your clear coat to the level of the scratches. I prefer to fill in the scratches with wax.. and as another said here, it takes time. I would use a quality finish clear coat wax such as Meguiars and wax it every few weeks. After about 3 times it will be as good as it gets. If you have a black car, forget about it... and just live with it. Also, don't use anything with polyester to dry your car after washing. Polyester fibers scratch the heck out of the finish. Good luck.

jay_e · December 2004

I am interested in buying a 2001 S60 Certified Pre Owned from Volvo. I researched a bit and nothing seems to be under $21000. Is this normal?

If I do make an offer? How much you think it's reasonable if it's $21000 (the dealer price)?

With the tax and etc, it will probably over $23000. I am willing to pay up to $21000-21500 with everything included.

Also, S60 2.4 base model- does it come up with the CD System? If it's not, it's out of the question for me..

grantchstr · December 2004

That price seems high on a car which had an MSRP of $29,000 (non-turbo) four years ago - although the "Certification" value is equivalent to an extended warranty which costs around $2,500. The 4 yr depreciation figure in my lease agreement is around $13,000 but in retrospect this amount should have been $15,000 given that the thing is down $7,500 the moment you drive it off the lot!

PS. There is a CD player of course.

qbrozen · December 2004

Those prices are very high. Its pretty normal that Volvos are priced way above true value, so beware.

For example, I've been looking at used S80 T6s. An '01 with miles in the mid-30k range has a trade-in value of about $15k. Of course, most I've seen are priced in the $24k range. I wouldn't pay more than $18k.

Even dealer retail for that '01 S60 base model you are looking for, according to edmunds numbers (which i typically find are higher than you should really pay) is a bit over $16k. Figure trade-in is ... i dunno ... $11-$12k? So I certainly wouldn't be looking to buy an '01 S60 base for more than about $15k.

BUT, if you really want more accurate numbers, I suggest you pay a visit to the Real World Trade-in Values board in the Smart Shopper section of Edmunds and post the details of a car similar to what you are looking for.

volvodan1 · December 2004

is relative. Do your homework and offer what you think is fair. qbrozen is right go and see Terry over in RWTIV. He is generally dead on.

I'll say this, I wish we could take em in for $11k and sell em for $21k!!!!!!

Remember, the 60's have held their value a ton better than the 80's.

pat · December 2004

Link: Real-World Trade-In Values

Let us know how it goes.

jay_e · December 2004

It's very helpful info for me,all of your replies.Thanks!

I agreed that Volvo sets the price bit higher,even considering CPO deal. I am also considering to get an Acura 2001 TL,the price is quite lower but they have only one year warranty,so I have to compare the comprehensive deal bwn these two.

My choices are kinda narrowed down to this;

Acura TL

Volvo S60

Jetta or Passat

Whatever happens, I will keep you posted!!

lexusguy · December 2004

Some thoughts about the above cars. First, the previous generation TL was nice, but it had some flaws. The interior was VERY cost cut, it had a lot of cheesy materials (awful fake wood that looked like one of those mail order trim kits) and a bland center stack with cheesy knobs and switches. TLs around that year also have documented transmission problems, so you'll definitely want to check that out, as a new tranny can be kind of pricey. Another thing, as with all Honda products, poor braking performance.

The S60 is a great car. The 2.4T is a little stronger off the line, but the T5 once it hits the midrange pulls very strong. The interior, sound system (well the HU-803 Dolby system) and the seats blow the doors off the TL. The regular stereo is pretty weak, and you only get a single disc. The S60 has great styling and the 17" multi-spoke rims are quite sexy. The TL is about as yawn inducing as it gets, with pretty pedestrian wheels.

Honestly, I definitely would not recommend a VW product. Poor reliability, and poor standard features means finding a used car with much of anything on it can be tough. Half of the used Passats Ive seen dont even have CD players. The 1.8T VW engine has gone through recall after recall, and the 2.8 in the Passat isnt much better. The Jetta is a CR "risk" and the Passats ratings are spotty at best. On the other hand, TL and S60 are both "recommended" cars.

iumbastu · December 2004

All, Has anyone else encountered problems with their S60R struts bending with regularity? I've had my "R" for 10 months and 11K miles and have encountered three bent struts and two misaligned springs (all issues are in the front suspension components.) Granted I drive in and around Boston where the roads aren't ideal, but as a previous Audi S4 owner who didn't have any issues at all, I'm sorely dissapointed in the reliability of my Volvo.

I've gone into my local dealer and pleaded my case, but they gave me the cold shoulder saying I must have hit a pot hole. Currently considering going the lemon law route....

I appreciate any other experiences anyone has to share.

Volvo S60

Comments

Helpful Tools

Most popular vehicles

Your Privacy