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While I have your attention, as someone in the biz, do you have any idea what the "wood grain" dealer add on could be?
I thought all XLE's came with wood trim in them?
I hope that helps. Again, market forces play a larger role than anything.
I have friends who would not be able to park in their parents' driveway with a "foreign" car. My dad never says a word, when I visit him, I park my Toyota right in the driveway without a second thought. I'm sure he'd like it better if it were a Ford, but it's nothing to fight over. Freedom of choice is one of the things that makes America great.
I think that the Camry is a fine automobile that often gets unfairly criticized for subjective issues like styling or because it doesn't behave like a race car (which it is not designed to be). I think that critics forget that it is not a sports car, nor is it trying to be one. It's family car, not a Corvette. And as a midsize passenger car, it does just fine.
I agree that for the money, you'd be hard pressed to find a better built car in this class. The Accord is still its main competitor and it will be interesting to see what the new '03 design brings to the table. I think that people buy Hondas and Accords specifically for some of the same reasons that people buy Toyotas and Camrys. But that's another subject .... ;-)
1. I'll buy the thing at $700 over TMV and feel like "they salesguys won again" -->please don't take that in any offensive way as I don't mean it towards all salespeople. I've ran into some real nasties and was burned as a young man, and its left some mental scars. I was pleased with the internet sales manager giving me his best offer up front. That was so much better and nice than an hour of haggling just to get there. I've also noticed how kind you've been, and taking time out of your day and giving free advice to strangers is quite the honorable thing. So please understand I don't mean that as a slight towards you or your profession at all.
2. If I buy it, and then hear later (or read on this board) about someone in this area getting one for "under invoice" or "exactly at TMV" or something, will I be filled with regret again.
3. On the flip side, if I try and wait till October to see if the dealers get desperate, will all of the colors I actually like (the 2 blues and the green) be gone? The green is already real hard to find.
Thanks for letting me rant a bit. I know in the long run this isn't a big deal--I like the car quite a bit, and the reliability/mileage issue along with the comfort I got from the room (I'm six five) is the best I can probably find for $23 anyway. I too, have been burned way to often by Dodge/GM/Ford vehicles, and while not to get into that, I will not buy anything "domestic" again, ever.
I too am a consumer. I buy TVs, houses, shoes, boats, guns (just got a very nice high end double for sporting clays) and a number of other products. I have a few rules about buying. I look at who is doing the selling. If the seller is able to convince me that the value exceeds the price, I buy. If the seller is an idiot, I turn into a megga shopper and focus only on price. Also, I try to not get too wrapped up if there is a lower price after I buy. I chalk it up to altered market conditions. It happens. The value still exceeded my price so I remain happy. I may be odd like this but that is really how I look at things.
To me, it is extremely important that the deal is struck honestly. If the seller dances around the price issue, I assume he is hiding something. If the seller is up-front on price and does a good job of justifying the price, I am more prone to buy.
One final note here. The TMV service is pretty good, but it isn't perfect. When I was on the floor, I saw cases where TMV was actually higher than our typical deal. There were other cases where TMV was below invoice and even below invoice minus hold back. Don't ask me how or why but that was the case. Its a guide, not a rule.
It seems that Honda believes only "rich" people who can afford the most expensive deserve better protection. What a pitty.
I now have a 2000 Taurus SES that I bought new at end of 2000 model year- I have had it two full years and at 18K miles, it has been perfect. Solid as a rock, no squeeks, no rattles, with solid tight handling for a family size car. It has only been back to the dealer for one minor windshield wiper recall. This Taurus has the optional 200Hp DOHC V-6 (I opted to get a spike in performance on this one). Car is well equipped but not loaded-included antilock brakes, 16 inch aluminum wheels, power remote locks, power windows, cruise, etc. What did I pay? $18K+TTL and with 0.9% 36 month financing available at that time.
I am not slamming Camry here. I am sure they are a very good reliable vehicle. But you are paying a premium price for a comparably equipped car, and certainly not all Taurus owners have had reliability issues.
While depreciation may affect some people, it does not me as I keep my vehicles a long time. I also have $3-4K more money in my pocket, comparing my Taurus to a comparably equipped V-6 Camry.
Sorry to intrude and get this slightly off topic. Maybe someone needs to start a Camry vs Taurus board!
It seems that Honda believes only "rich" people who can afford the most expensive deserve better protection. What a pitty.
1) new 3.3 V6 bet. 225 & 240HP, 4 stays the same
2) more audio options including MP3 player
3) more standard features in both LE & XLE
4) slight change to front & rear , perhaps like the Camry sold in some Asian countries, take a look at Toyota's Thailand website http://www.toyota.co.th/thai/showroom/camry/360_ext.asp exterior
http://www.toyota.co.th/thai/showroom/camry/360_int.asp interior
it looks like these designs are "tested" in those countries before coming here
5) HID lights optional on XLE
6) LED instruments ( opitron lighting like on most Lexus vehicles ) on the XLE
the new engine is confirmed, everything else is questionable but a strong possibility.
It seems that Honda believes only "rich" people who can afford the most expensive deserve better protection. What a pitty.
I drive anywhere from 45-60 miles each day, all city driving. If the paint is going to look bad that quickly, I'll avoid a new model.
More Audio options including MP3 & satellite radio - strong possibility based on the fact that the new Accord offers these options now ( speculation from industry source )
minor changes to front/rear - based on Camrys available in Asia , normal response from Toyota to keep the Camry "fresh" / LED lighting also available now on Asian Camrys
HID lights - pure speculation but Nissan already offers them on the Altima 3.5 ( for 1 year )
Right now this "list" is partly a wish list created by industry sources & other people so Toyota may decide that there is no need to respond to the Accord ( with the exception of the new engine ), very unlikely as it may be
God Bless the Victims & their families on this day of great sorrow & reflection from this native New Yorker who witnessed that horrible day in person.
Anyone know if they have done tests to demonstrate that they can get the same result after crashing two identical vehciles?
My concern is that since Camry and ES300 have very similar structure, is it possible that the poor result for Camry side impact is just one time deviation? Could it be a much better result if they crash test another one?
Anyone in the science field knows that every experiement has its limitation and experiment results have a normal distribution profile, which means there will be outliers.
Anyone can comment on this?
Crash test results usually are reproducible, from what I understand. At worse you might see a one-star difference but that's debatable. E.g. the European offset frontal crash test results usually are quite similar in overall scores to the IIHS offset frontal crash test. I haven't sat down and compared the European (www.euroncap.com) side impact tests with the NHTSA's (and they have not tested a new-generation Camry yet, either).
Eventually NHTSA will test a Camry with a side airbag, but we don't know when.
Honda, like other Mfg's could care less about the safety of its buyer's, otherwise they would make side air bags standard across the line. It is absurd that a safety item is optional. Until they are forced to add these by the government or more people complain, they will not change. It is only from a sales viewpoint they decide not to add them as standard equipment. If they could remove front airbags, headrests, and crumple zones to lower the sticker price they would.
As for the American Camry...everything you say is true but an overlooked important fact is that it likely was DESIGNED over seas....where quality of components obviously demands a higher priority than American designs. Was it not Iococa once said something like 'Americans could care less if the door handle falls off...they want cheap cars'. I have no doubt we can construct anything here. We can design just as well as anywhere else too. Quite simply the American designs (IMO) are designed with a lower cost up front and higher maint. costs in the end. My guess is you likely spend the same amount on a 2002 Camry as you would a 2002 Taurus after 5 years. It's just that you pay more up front for your Camry and have less trips to the dealer for service. May be I'm wrong....
Head [side curtain] bags are only available on the EX V6, but I would look for that to change in subsequent model years. There is the perception on the part of the corporate marketing types [just ask anyone at GM] that the American public is loath to pay extra for safety items on cars under $25k. You may disagree, and I do, but that perception is what drives these kinds of product decisions.
I see no significant difference in the dedication of Honda and Toyota to safety issues. All '03 Accords are now ABS equipped, for example, while side curtain bags are more available on the Camry...tomato, tomahto...
Except EX-V6, one do NOT even get the choice to pick a curtain airbag. (Yes, side bag is stanard, I believe).
On Camry, side and curtain airbag together cost only about $430, that is about the same price as alloy wheels. IMHO, that will be mony well spend.
I am guessing/hoping that is just an experiment deviation. Since ES300 which is structually similar to Camry received very good results.
I maybe wrong. But yes, I agree with you that it is concerning.
Not sure if Toyota will come out to comment on the issue. Sometime ago, on this board, someone posted a conversation with Toyota customer service regarding the side impact results. Maybe you can search for it.
I was also perturbed with the Camry 2 star rating, but the rating system is a little misleading. Since the rating systems provides on single rating for a range of TTI (thoracic trauma index) values, a car can be on the edge of a rating like the Camry. With an index of 92, this correlates to a side injury % of about 21%. If another vehicle were to garner a TTI of 89, it would have a 3 star rating instead of the Camry's 2 star rating. I'm not sure how the tests are performed and whether or not they average the results, but there can be some statistical deviation. Pretty confusing if you ask me. There is also another metric called the pelvis deceleration (measured in g's) that is recorded, but it does not seem to affect the ratings. For instance, the Altima recorded 114g's while the Camry recorded only 69g's. Does anyone know if there are details for the NCAP testing procedures?
Well, this was just some of the research I performed regarding this matter. I am also thinking of purchasing a Camry, but I am going to ensure that I get the optional side airbags. Hope this helps.
BMW was once criticized for making its cars too stiff in a crash, thus putting more stress on the occupants, but this is because they were designing for the offset crash which puts much more stress on a vehicle than the frontal crash, and requires a stiffer structrure.
All crash tests are usefull, consider all of them together as well as real world crash test results to see if the car is indeed safe. I would not feel unsafe driving the Camry with the side airbags as it would probably score the same as the Lexus.
For your info, Honda has an engineering safety facility where they not only extensively test the safety of their cars, but also the safety of pedestrians who might end up on the hood of one of their cars in an unfortunate accident. They go as far as focusing on how you would land on the hood of an Accord should one ever run into you. I think that shows how much they do care.
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I hate to be the one to break the news to everyone, but you don't get hurt in an accident that doesn't happen.
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I'm amazed at how many people say things like " I won't buy that car because of the 2 star crash test rating". That might give the impression that safety is important to people. Well where are they? I don't see any of them on the road. But I do see lots of people driving reclessly and dangerously. It's wose that ever.
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It's like the desire for a 3rd row in a SUV. Everybody seems to want that now, but I've never seen anyone in a 3rd row and rarely ever see anyone in a 2nd row. Everybody wants 4 wheel drive but only 5 percent use it.
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I think people want the car to be safer so they don't have to.
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I ride a bicycle on the road over 10,000 miles a year ( that's much more than I drive my car ) with no airbags,ABS,crush zones,absolute no protection for my body (except a helmet with a "Third Eye Mirror" attached) and yet I feel very safe.
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I feel safe because I ride smartly and safely, even though there are vehichles doing 80mph just 2 feet from my shoulder. I'm only the second person I've seen on a bike that has a mirror on the helmet. That mirror is the single most important safety feature when I'm riding because the helmet "MAY" protect (many people die who were wearing a helmet) me, but the mirror on my helmet will prevent accidents.(and it has for me many times).
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If I don't have an accident, I can't get hurt.
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I've been driving for 30 years now and not one of all these safety features would have made a difference in any accident I was involved in (not implying that they can't, but they haven't), but my relentless pursuit of safety on the road has saved my life many times.
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Auto safety is more complicated that a 2star or 5star rating.
IIHS offset: Pest pick
Japan (for a car called wisdom, which looks like a camry): 5 stars...
I do not know what to make of this...
(I am concerned, because 3 months ago I was hit broadside by a 4200 lb caddy...hit the pass. door in a SAAB 9-5).
The Grand AM does poorly in crash tests and you could see that. The front wheel almost came completely off, the roof was buckling, and it shattered the glass out of the rear passenger window and the front window.
The 01+ Civics get 5 stars. The engine in my car was pushed back several inches to the point where it was touching the firewall, the passenger side fender was pushed back into the passenger side door, and alot of the electrical components in the engine were damaged but I walked out without a scratch and both doors still opened. They ended up taking the 2 occupants of the Grand Am to the hospital but I was able to walk out and go home.
So is a crash test result the only factor to consider when buying a car? No but it is an indicator of how a car will perform. I personally wouldn't want my family in a car that only gets 2 stars in side impact protection. I could only imagine what would've happened to the 8 year old in the Grand Am I hit if she were sitting in the front seat on the side where I hit them or if I had hit them closer to the back seat.
I was surfing through this board because my mother drives an '01 Camry (from my user name you should be able to guess what my preference is...) Anyway I was intrigued by vmaturo's comments on crash tests. Safety equipment and crash test results should be important criteria when purchasing a new or used car. Before I purchased my car I thoroughly checked the iihs and nhtsa websites for data. Unfortunately over the summer I had the opportunity to see the reliability of the data for myself. I was involved in an offset, frontal crash with an SUV. And I have to agree that accidents are called accidents for a reason--no one plans them. Even the best drivers make mistakes, and it is feasable that you could be in an accident where the other driver is 100% at fault. Thankfully my Sable held up just as iihs indicated it would and I was not injured. EMS workers and firefighters on the scene were amazed at how well my car absorbed the impact and that I was not injured. I think if I had been driving a different vehicle I would be telling a different story. Thats why I was very concerned when I saw that the '02 Camry received only 2 stars in the side impact crash test. I find this odd since the 2001 model received four stars. Now looking @ the graphs on the nhtsa website it is clear that the Camry is right on the line between 2 and 3 stars. However I just find it strange that Toyota would redesign a model that winds up being less crashworthy than its predecesor. I am sure that Toyota conducted its own side impact tests before releasing the vehicle. Also, the Camry nhtsa used in the test was already equipped with the side air bags (I think someone who posted on here was confused about that). Personally I think the Camry is a great car and if money weren't such a large factor in my decision I probably would have purchased one. However, I hope that Toyota adresses this important issue because consumers should not have to settle for less when it comes to safety. Well thats my $.02--happy posting.
I do not believe that is true. Perhaps I am missing something?
NHTSA's notation has "w/SAB" with the model name when the vehicle is equipped with side airbags. If you look at the list of 2002 medium sized sedans tested, you will note that it just says:
"2002 Toyota Camry 4- DR."
Meanwhile, the Avalon tested says:
"2002 Toyota Avalon 4- DR. w/SAB"
http://www.nhtsa.gov/NCAP/Cars/2002MidS.html
If you go back to the 2001 list:
http://www.nhtsa.gov/NCAP/Cars/2001MidS.html
You will note that there are two Camry's listed:
"2001 Toyota Camry 4-DR."
"2001 Toyota Camry 4-DR. w/SAB"
And, finally, if you go to the NHTSA's glossary:
http://www.nhtsa.gov/NCAP/Info.html#iq2
"w/SAB - The vehicle tested was equipped with a side air bag."
Thus, I'm pretty sure that the 2002 Camry tested was NOT equipped with side air bags.
I would expect (speculate) that the result would be improved with a Camry with a side airbag, and would highly recommend them.
http://www.hwysafety.org/vehicle_ratings/low_speed_midinexp.htm
"1 The pole test of the Toyota Camry was conducted off-center because of reinforcement in the middle of the rear bumper system that's effective in only a narrow range of impacts."
http://www.aiada.org/pubs/fup/2002/fu062602.htm
I'm sure some Camrys are DOA, but all the ones I rent and the 3 I own have been very good. Some minor problems, but nothing like you state above.
As to Toyota taking care of the problems, I really can't state an opinion since I've never had too many experiences. I do know that when we bought our 2000 Solara SLE V6 with no Alloy Spare, Toyota addressed the issue more than fairly with us. We are in the midst of buying a new '03 XLE and I certainly wouldn't do that if our '94, '97 and '00 Camrys weren't quite good.
Certainly no one should feel obligated to take a vehicle from any manufacturer with low trans fluid, bad shocks, and a poor paint job. Caveat emptor!