What Would It Take for YOU to buy a diesel car?

ruking1

carboy21 said:

However, in a letter seen by Reuters to EU officials, the ACEA chairman and Renault chief executive, Carlos Ghosn, said that no significant progress on NOx was possible before 2019. Reuters said that ACEA, which lobbies for Europe’s carmakers in Brussels, told the officials on 1 October that the NOx limit for a new, more realistic test should be 70% higher than today’s limit.

Quoting , Carlos Ghosyn , CEO of Renault-Nissan. So it is not possible to produce Diesel engines meeting current requirements. Will it be the end of car diesels ?

The average late model pick up truck does NOT meet those (2007?) standards! Keep in mind 75% of the US PVF are large cars. (aka, the MAJORITY is out of compliance, including the 25% small car population)

I expect a full court press for the lawmakers, regulators to keep vilification only on US VW diesels. If the total truth, which is out already gains traction, it will show how all this is a total fairy tale. The major polluters are already tracked by air-quality a The major polluters are already tracked by air quality people agencies, like AQMD, that I have cited more than once. So the chicken little side continues to cluck.

Keep in mind that almost nobody got prosecuted during the far more serious banking, financial crisis during 2008 2009. Same held true for GM bankruptcy, and the various criminal cover ups.

stever

ruking1 said:

TOTALLY suspect until they start showing gasser figures or figures from various emissions products they track.Organic farming death figures also need to be shown.

You must not know any epidemiologists - I'm sure they've done studies and papers on all that stuff.

I took Carlos' quotes to mean that Renault just needed three more years to be able to meet emissions regs.

ruking1

That's totally beside the point!

Hey that guy , blamed for the Benghazi fiasco ,who made a bad video in Los Angeles is probably still on probation. Grab him and put him back in jail for the VW fiasco!

carboy21

Epidemiology is a Voodoo science . It is mostly based on assumptions, theories and conjectures. Now if we are talking of epidemiology of infectious diseases , that is more accurate science . But environment ? It is purely conjecture and assumptions.

stever

I still prefer to inhale less NOxious air, thank you.

California gives VW Nov 20 deadline for technical fix in diesel scandal (Reuters)

ruking1

Yes, it isn't like the data wheels have to be reinvented. AQMD studies have already showed that 51% of the LA metropolitan population live within 1 mile of major arterials, freeways, highways, etc. there is easily one & one half (biblical) generations of data!

It would seem that even if US lawmakers were able to get their prosecutorial "pound of flesh" German law prevents the revelation of the identity of the alledged software engineering types.

Let the broadcast of the "world wrestling drama " begin! Who is going to play Cain? Robert Downey Jr. gets my vote for Sergeant Schultz.

stever

I vetoed a lot of potential houses moving here - basically if I could hear the Interstate, we kept looking. Unfortunately lots of people don't have that option.

Are y'all ready for Hallowe'en? A little VW humor....

houdini1

carboy21 said:

However, in a letter seen by Reuters to EU officials, the ACEA chairman and Renault chief executive, Carlos Ghosn, said that no significant progress on NOx was possible before 2019. Reuters said that ACEA, which lobbies for Europe’s carmakers in Brussels, told the officials on 1 October that the NOx limit for a new, more realistic test should be 70% higher than today’s limit.

Quoting , Carlos Ghosyn , CEO of Renault-Nissan. So it is not possible to produce Diesel engines meeting current requirements. Will it be the end of car diesels ?

Easy fix...just loosen the requirements.

stever

That's exactly what they're proposing to do in the EU.

EU set to delay diesel emissions tests by two years (FT.com)

gagrice

stever said:

I don't recall anyone in here talking about using home heating oil or farm diesel in their passenger car, at least not lately. Do many people try to cheat that way? (and no, that wasn't a setup for VW jokes...).

Too early to tell what it means but "Federal and California regulators have begun an investigation into a second computer program in Volkswagen’s diesel cars that also affects the operation of the cars’ emission controls." (NY Times).

We used the same heating oil in our diesel tractors. In the 1970s I do not recall it having any dye in it. I don't think I would run red dye or heating oil in a modern diesel designed for ULSD. I don't buy red dye diesel for my tractor as you have to fill out a lot of paperwork here. Not worth it to save a lousy 10 cents a gallon.

ruking1

You also have report it on your IRS/CA state tax returns.

gagrice

stever said:

There's links above estimating deaths in the US that can be attributed to VW's cheating that range from 8 to around 100. That's deaths from NOx. Epidemiologists live for that kind of stuff.

Very funny, like the lungs can tell the difference between the NOx coming from the millions of diesel semis that are allowed to put out 123 times as much as a diesel car.

PS
Piriform CCleaner, did in fact find 151k cookies in Chrome and now all the sites wanting money are reset.
I got the free version, may opt for Pro.
Thanks Keith

ruking1

stever said:

That's exactly what they're proposing to do in the EU.

EU set to delay diesel emissions tests by two years (FT.com)

AQMD statistics (all other areas also) also indicate that major passes (get out of jail free) are given by Fed, State, Local ANYWAY, to major N0x emitters!

Again, the major nexus here is AQMD is the local agency responsible for the smoggiest area in the United States ( areas in LA LA land). The "get out of jail free/exemptions" are defacto Fed,State,local guarantees that the area will not even come close to meeting OLD targets (2007?), let alone a 65% decrease into future targets ( easily 15 to 20 years of sanctioned (NON) compliance!

I don't want anybody to get the idea that I'm picking on them. They just happen to be the smoggiest place in the nation. The truth is the same for every other local agency in the nation.

stever

gagrice said:

Very funny, like the lungs can tell the difference between the NOx coming from the millions of diesel semis that are allowed to put out 123 times as much as a diesel car.

This thread somehow reminds me of parents asking if you would jump off a cliff just because all your friends were. But Mom, everybody is doing it!

gagrice

stever said:

gagrice said:

Very funny, like the lungs can tell the difference between the NOx coming from the millions of diesel semis that are allowed to put out 123 times as much as a diesel car.

This thread somehow reminds me of parents asking if you would jump off a cliff just because all your friends were. But Mom, everybody is doing it!

I remember driving to Albany Oregon as a youth to visit my grandparents and uncle. Right along the 5 was the smelliest pulp mill you can imagine. I asked my uncle that worked there how he could stand the smell? I will never forget his answer, "Smells like bread and butter to me". We sometimes forget that along with pollution comes many jobs. CA has managed to eliminate a lot of the dirty factories. Some moved to TX, others to China and Mexico. If we block all the things that cause pollution, will their be any jobs left?

This site says Bakersfield is the dirtiest air in the USA. LA is third. Some fertilizer is a source of NOx, which could be the cause of dirty air. California with all the regulations on diesel cars still manages to have 6 of the dirtiest cities in America. Leads me to believe cars are not or have not been the problem.

http://www.health.com/health/gallery/0,,20490855,00.html

ruking1

Let's see what the Senate does and then the White House ,

http://www.wsj.com/articles/house-votes-to-lift-oil-export-ban-1444411778

ruking1

gagrice said:

stever said:

gagrice said:

Very funny, like the lungs can tell the difference between the NOx coming from the millions of diesel semis that are allowed to put out 123 times as much as a diesel car.

This thread somehow reminds me of parents asking if you would jump off a cliff just because all your friends were. But Mom, everybody is doing it!

I remember driving to Albany Oregon as a youth to visit my grandparents and uncle. Right along the 5 was the smelliest pulp mill you can imagine. I asked my uncle that worked there how he could stand the smell? I will never forget his answer, "Smells like bread and butter to me". We sometimes forget that along with pollution comes many jobs. CA has managed to eliminate a lot of the dirty factories. Some moved to TX, others to China and Mexico. If we block all the things that cause pollution, will their be any jobs left?

This site says Bakersfield is the dirtiest air in the USA. LA is third. Some fertilizer is a source of NOx, which could be the cause of dirty air. California with all the regulations on diesel cars still manages to have 6 of the dirtiest cities in America. Leads me to believe cars are not or have not been the problem.

http://www.health.com/health/gallery/0,,20490855,00.html

You know it's really hard to characterize the utter & complete disingenuousness of the eco weenies. N0x emissions from the 3% diesel car vehicle fleet is absolutely miniscule!

Agricultural waste and pollution is really just part of life. Yet at the same time, they try to utterly destroy agriculture, as they seek to put agriculture in their backyards & roof tops. It is as if because they do it, and in your backyard, it is somehow cleaner than the driven snow? "Sustainable" How sustainable would a food kitchen or free food line be if they actually had to charge the people getting the food, money ?

California has always prided itself on being the breadbasket to the figurative and literal world.

Fine, don't like that? Just stop feeding the world. So for example, leave North Korea to their own devices.

It should then become graphically apparent all those food stuffs we donate to various relief organizations are no longer as cheap or as free as they once were. Or make it for much more expensive @ market sales.

ruking1

Interesting buy?

http://news.yahoo.com/vw-shares-jump-sparking-questions-over-mystery-buyer-154222788.html

I'm still fishing for the long positions. It was a great ride on the way down.

ruking1

ruking1 said:

Interesting buy?

http://news.yahoo.com/vw-shares-jump-sparking-questions-over-mystery-buyer-154222788.html

I'm still fishing for the long positions. It was a great ride on the way down.

I don't think the stock is done being volatile just yet. One example might be when they announce they might not have set aside enough monies for the " diesel fix options".

For the Porsche & Piech families with 52.2% plus control, (unspecified "better voting" majority?) one of the goals is probably accomplished. The above paragraph might be a nit for them.

stever

See my BP reference to @gagrice above. Going to be some fun charts for a while.

Not much to do with diesel, other than burning carbon, but Dan Neil has a fun (to me anyway) column in the WSJ today about how US engineering is humbling the Germans.

How Tesla Leaves its Rivals Playing Catch Up

ruking1

stever said:

See my BP reference to @gagrice above. Going to be some fun charts for a while.

Not much to do with diesel, other than burning carbon, but Dan Neil has a fun (to me anyway) column in the WSJ today about how US engineering is humbling the Germans.

How Tesla Leaves its Rivals Playing Catch Up

Yes, actually you're posting is what triggered the discussion between Gagrice and I.

Got to LOVE Berkeley engineering! Go Bears ! Ok, Stanford is here also.

Outside of the hoorah!, You as an edmunds.com person probably know that the major German car companies and starting to catch on domestic car companies have some sort of R&D/think tank facilities in the "Silicon Valley" area. Honda & Toyota have for years been a fixture in the LA area. Unceremoniously, they got driven out, not too long ago.

Google & Apple are rumored to be interested in "software" cars, in addition to Tesla up the literal street.

stever

Well, I'm biased since my wife is a Berkeley grad, athough not in engineering.

We won't mention that Tesla's stock dropped 11% this week.

ruking1

You guys are a bad influence. I was watching the (German VW) diesel stocks too closely to be too concerned about Tesla, my bad.

I'm not entirely sure why this is true, but I get into the farm far more often than my old haunts @ CAL.

I think the last time I was on campus was going to an alumni night where a couple of professors were honored in receiving the Nobel Peace Prize. (Berkeley is @ # 4 in # of Nobel prizes) After the normal dinner, pleasantries and ceremonies, a bunch of us went down to Top Dog and promptly ordered Polish dogs. It's pretty amazing that even after 43 years, (that I know of) Yelp.com still rates that place 4/5 stars!?

This article should help folks match up their energy fantasies with reality.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cost_of_electricity_by_source

fintail

Just saw a TV ad for an ambulance chaser/lawyer wanting to get in on the action. Hilarious.

re: electrics, if only they weren't painfully awkward/dorky or unaffordable, even with the undeserved tax breaks. And don't ask where the juice comes from, nor the batteries.

ruking1

There is curious lack of specificity from any number of those that I've seen, other than to meet a strict, but again unspecified filing date.

There's really no suitable explanation/s from the environmental conservatives, why solar and wind sources makes electrical grid operations unstable. They act as though ignoring it makes it not so. More practically, there is no suitable problem-solving to make it less unstable. Indeed, many to most city projects can not support its own energy needs, from solar.

carboy21

fintail said:

Just saw a TV ad for an ambulance chaser/lawyer wanting to get in on the action. Hilarious.

re: electrics, if only they weren't painfully awkward/dorky or unaffordable, even with the undeserved tax breaks. And don't ask where the juice comes from, nor the batteries.

westernlithium.com/products/lithium/where-is-it-found-and-produced/

Lithium is corrosive and requires special handling to avoid skin contact. Breathing lithium dust or lithium compounds (which are often alkaline) initially irritate the nose and throat, while higher exposure can cause a buildup of fluid in the lungs, leading to pulmonary edema. The metal itself is a handling hazard because of the caustic hydroxide produced when it is in contact with moisture. Lithium is safely stored in non-reactive compounds such as naphtha.[133]

That Lithium used in Electric cars comes from the worst polluting mining operations, worse then Oil wells.

ruking1

Imagine that? Another group of (extremely dirty ) factoids left off the "CLEAN" EV narrative? Tsk, tsk! Oh & coming from area's hostile to the US? The commodity is almost as rare As rare earth minerals? So are the Chicken Littles when you need them?

Can't even make this stuff up!

stever

fintail said:

Just saw a TV ad for an ambulance chaser/lawyer wanting to get in on the action. Hilarious.

Slow moving lawyer - the pros had filed suits the same day the news broke.

Here's a rebuttal to my Guardian link the other day, from no less a reputable source than NBC.

Are Other Automakers Cheating on Diesel? Not So Fast

carboy21

As long as mining for Lithium pollutes others country's environment and puts them at health risk, it is all okey dokey. NOX should not pollute the elite California air

As long as windmills and solar farms are in someone else's backyard its fine. Not in my backyard

carboy21

So where is all the Lithium going to come from when you have majority of cars running on Electricity and uses "imported" Lithium for the batteries ?

Never seen a worse hypocracy. It is a Lithium vs Oil industry "battle"

ruking1

I think by now, it should be fairly apparent that EV and hybrid and battery interests are shrills for clean coal & nuclear. Natural gas, as the third leg & 2nd largest has some logistical issues.

http://news.yahoo.com/house-oks-lifting-40-old-us-ban-oil-192442381.html

The above article indicates that the Sierra Club is a HUGE proponent of continued importation of oil. Even the environmental types are against their own narrative!

stever

Nevada wins the Tesla battery factory giga-race (High Country News)

"Nevada was chosen in part because of the location; it’s a direct shot to the Tesla car factory in California, there’s a lithium mine nearby (for the lithium-ion batteries), and it’s got no corporate income tax."

And from Fortune:

"Much of the world’s lithium comes from Argentina, Chile, Bolivia, Australia and eastern China, and is shipped long distances to battery makers in Asia.

Construction has already started on the battery factory, where the assembly lines are to churn out enough lithium-ion batteries for 500,000 electric cars. Pure Energy Minerals said its lithium “will cover a portion of Tesla’s needs with the remainder to come from other sources."

The lithium that Pure Energy Minerals plans to mine in Nevada is in underground salty aquifers across an 8,000-acre area. To extract the lithium, Pure Energy Minerals plans to drill holes in the ground, pump the water to the surface, and extract the lithium from the brine.”

ruking1

I could not help it be impressed by Tesla's new SUV at $130,000 MSRP.! Depending upon how a diesel CUV is configured, one could buy 3 to 4 units.

On topic with the VW diesel fiasco, I was reading that CARB wants VW to come up with many more "fix " options. This back & forth process could easily stretch "fixes" into 2018, or three years. For us, 2009'VW Jetta TDI, that would add 45,000 miles or 145,000 miles. A Fed,CA state, local, emissions warranty @ that point could be good for app 100,000 miles,or app 250,000 miles. This is sounding better & better as it unfolds. So even if it's worth nothing/zero, it would've cost eight cents a mile to own. Any residual value would drop cost per mile to own. (depreciation)

stever

I suppose it's a tour-de-force, but there's only 5 or 6 of them out there. Be more impressed if they had come out with the Model 3 for ~$35k first.

carboy21

stever said:

Nevada wins the Tesla battery factory giga-race (High Country News)



The lithium that Pure Energy Minerals plans to mine in Nevada is in underground salty aquifers across an 8,000-acre area. To extract the lithium, Pure Energy Minerals plans to drill holes in the ground, pump the water to the surface, and extract the lithium from the brine.”

Polluting Nevada is fine as long as the LA LA Land remains clean and unpolluted

benjaminh

from the LA Times:

"Ozone goals give California trucks a tough road ahead
Tony Barboza
Technology being pioneered in cars -- to produce electric, plug-in hybrid and fuel-cell autos -- must eventually be scaled up to trucks and other heavy-duty vehicles.

....The changes will fall heavily on vehicles because they are the dominant source of air pollution in California. The largest reductions must come from the heavy-duty sector that transports goods through ports, freeways, rail yards and warehouses. The diesel-powered freight system emits 45% of the smog-forming pollution in the state and lags behind passenger vehicles, which have reduced tailpipe emissions dramatically over 50 years of smog-fighting regulations...."

http://www.latimes.com/science/la-me-adv-ozone-transportation-20151011-story.html

gagrice

stever said:

Well, I'm biased since my wife is a Berkeley grad, athough not in engineering.

We won't mention that Tesla's stock dropped 11% this week.

Tesla will have to be on their own someday, I would hope. I am tired of the corporate welfare for the wealthy coming out of my pocket. I don't think Tesla would be riding very high if not for countries like Norway that buy them by the dozens for their fat cats. Sad part is they are not even an export as the Tesla S for the EU is built in the Netherlands. Elon Musk has to go down in history as one of the Premier Con Artists.

imidazol97

gagrice said:

stever said:

Well, I'm biased since my wife is a Berkeley grad, athough not in engineering.

We won't mention that Tesla's stock dropped 11% this week.

Tesla will have to be on their own someday, I would hope. I am tired of the corporate welfare for the wealthy coming out of my pocket. I don't think Tesla would be riding very high if not for countries like Norway that buy them by the dozens for their fat cats. Sad part is they are not even an export as the Tesla S for the EU is built in the Netherlands. Elon Musk has to go down in history as one of the Premier Con Artists.

Exactly right. How many millions have we given his 3 companies that exist on government money?

gagrice

fintail said:

Just saw a TV ad for an ambulance chaser/lawyer wanting to get in on the action. Hilarious.

re: electrics, if only they weren't painfully awkward/dorky or unaffordable, even with the undeserved tax breaks. And don't ask where the juice comes from, nor the batteries.

Oh, we will be paying for Tesla and the battery factory for decades. Not to mention the Freebie charging stations. Wonder who is paying the electric bills on those stations?

I can see it now, 2am Bill Gates pulls into a Tesla charging station in the middle of Kansas. Wind blowing 40 mph, sub zero temperature. Sign on charging station "out of order". Calls Elon, hey man this charging station is broken, the cafe is closed till 6am and I am using the last of my battery to keep this sucker warm. Send help!!!
When he gets a recording that says Please call back during business hours, thank you....

stever

Let me know when you find an industry that's not subsidized.

(And don't say the internet forum industry - thank you DARPA).

ruking1

stever said:

Let me know when you find an industry that's not subsidized.

(And don't say the internet forum industry - thank you DARPA).

Sometimes you say things you really mean ! ?

http://news.yahoo.com/falling-gas-prices-means-no-social-security-cola-120530721.html

So just a quick & dirty calculation for the 15k commute is app $1 per gal or $375 saved per year ULSD@40 mpg. Cola for social security was 1.7% last year. I am swagging the fuel savings is better per $1000 ss per mo.

stever

I was thinking more in terms of subsidies to industry.

"A 2011 study by the consulting firm Management Information Services, Inc. estimated the total historical federal subsidies for various energy sources over the years 1950–2010. The study found that oil, natural gas, and coal received $369 billion, $121 billion, and $104 billion (2010 dollars), respectively, or 70% of total energy subsidies over that period. Oil, natural gas, and coal benefited most from percentage depletion allowances and other tax-based subsidies, but oil also benefited heavily from regulatory subsidies such as exemptions from price controls and higher-than-average rates of return allowed on oil pipelines."

Wikipedia

ruking1

So is that a way of saying, one doesnt like where it's coming from ? Or is it that hard to say, ... thank you? Does anyone really think the spenders in Congress are going to SAVE the withheld COLA monies?

stever

Well, the thread was @gagrice commenting on Tesla's subsidies and I just pointed out that there weren't anything new about that. Not sure where you're trying to go with pension benefits.

How about some diesel news? Not sure that we've talked about the second VW "potential" cheat in this discussion yet.

EPA’s new VW probe may reveal failure to disclose (Detroit News)

texases

How are 'exemptions from price controls' a subsidy? NOT applying a nutso government edict is a negative?

stever

Hm, how about this - if the feds decided to control the price of passenger cars but exempted diesels, that would be a form of a subsidy.

texases

Nah, that's a bad idea with some exceptions.

stever

lol.

I'm a bit contrarian on home solar subsidies - I think the current system props up higher prices for consumers and if we did away with the tax credits, the overall prices would drop. There'd be a lot of casualties from the solar installer companies but the ones who can figure out how to compete will act fast to get the payback back down to the 8 or 10 year timeframe that's claimed using the federal tax subsidy. I'd rather pay $13,000 now and be done with it than pay $21,000 and get the money difference back through a tax subsidy.

Interesting reading - Long History Of U.S. Energy Subsidies. (Chemical & Engineering News)

ruking1

stever said:

Well, the thread was @gagrice commenting on Tesla's subsidies and I just pointed out that there weren't anything new about that. Not sure where you're trying to go with pension benefits.

How about some diesel news? Not sure that we've talked about the second VW "potential" cheat in this discussion yet.

EPA’s new VW probe may reveal failure to disclose (Detroit News)

The article speaks for itself!

ruking1

texases said:

Nah, that's a bad idea with some exceptions.

If anything, those have been some of the major complaints, on this board. Diesel costs more in acquisition and fuel (due to taxation).

Further investigation shows significantly higher costs per mile driven fuel: RUG/PUG. If one factors in 15,000 miles per year avg , multiplied by 11.5 to 12 years avg age of the PVF (180,000 miles) the math +$$'s REMAINS compelling (like model).

@ current prices for 14 MB GLK 350/250BT, 22 mpg/35 mpg, PUG $2.65/ULSD $2.49=682 gal/429 gal per yr= $ 1,807-$1,068=$ 739 per yr. saved * 12 yrs=$8,868. When you put in the -$500 MSRP for the 250 BT =$9,368.