Honda Accord vs Toyota Camry

8u6hfd

You should see the 6-speed manuals which Honda and Toyota makes.

Toyota Celica GT-S: misshift, Toyota covers the repair (despite being a driver mistake)

HOnda S2000 and Acura RSX Type-S: misshift, Honda your damn fault (you can check the various boards)

manamal

Finally saw one on the road. It is probably a great car on the inside, but I suspect there will be a restyling of the exterior on the outside.

BTW, I have an '02 Camry. Only compaint is the location of the panic button on the FOB. It is too easy to hit by accident....Oh...the roof should have armour to protect against acorns!

bodydouble

Now that you mention it, I do observe more than a few Camry owners setting off their alarm when they try to unlock. I always thought, what's up with that? Is that the first time they used the remote? Well, now I know!

anonymousposts

8u6: I just spent about an hour reading 537 posts in the S2000 room and couldn't find one post where an owner had a transmission failure that Honda refused to pay for and I've subscribed to some RSX boards for a couple of months now and haven't seen any reports of tranny problems there either.

Toyota did refuse to pay for sludged engines even with receipts of proper maintenance and I think they had to temporarily discontinue the GT-S 6-speed Celica to address the concerns with the tranny.

8u6hfd

http://forums.clubrsx.com/showthread.php?s=& threadid=13565

http://forums.clubrsx.com/showthread.php?s=& threadid=17110

http://forums.clubrsx.com/showthread.php?s= &threadid=10805

http://forums.clubrsx.com/showthread.php?s= &threadid=6578

etc...

http://www.s2ki.com/forums/showthread.php? threadid=2575

http://www.s2ki.com/forums/showthread.php? threadid=55717

run a search for misshift

the links have an additional space in them. Remove the space to get it to work

(Host, I know as per the rules, I shouldn't do this, I only did this to prove a quick point....and in part is the use the search function in a forum board, so just kill this post after about a day, if there's any problems...thanks)

anonymousposts

Driver error is causing bombed engines in all cars like the S2000's RSX's BMW's etc. because people buy them and don't know how to drive. If it is driver error the manufacturere shoud NOT have to pay for it.

And there is still a difference between the instances in the RSX, S2000, and even the Celica. An engine dying at 15,000 miles due to sludge is obviously not the owner's fault .. when you have high performance cars like the RSX it would be very easy to driver inexperience/error to cause a shift into second instead of 4th.

8u6hfd

On the same boards, there are experienced drivers whom has made the fatal mistake

alpha01

Alloys are standard on all V6 Camrys. Alloys are a common option on both the SE and XLE 4s, with the majority of the Camry SE and XLE 4s having the alloys. Factory alloys (the same as the LE V6) are available on the LE 4, though dealer-ordered ones are much more common. They're attractive, and improve the look of the LE greatly, IMO, and we have them on ours. If you want to see a pic of the dealer-installed ones Im talking about, check the Feb 05 issue of Consumer Reports. Factory alloys are not available on the Camry Std. and I have yet to see one with the dealer installed Split-5 spoke.

Honda puts alloys on all EX 4s and EX V6 models, and they are a dealer installed accessory for the others, though I dont see many with them. For the LX and LX V6, there is a dealer installed 'Convenience Pkg' with 16 inch alloys, wheel locks, splash guards, and cargo tray. Thats a tire upgrade for the 4, so I'd imagine it costs more on that model.

~alpha

anonymousposts

even experienced driver's make errors. If you read the cases you will see that some of the failures blamed on Honda are illogical .. "I was in third gear, shifted to fourth, and the revs went up and kept going up ... common sense tells you that it is impossible for you to shift into 4th gear from 3rd and have the revs INCREASE .. they would decrease as you are going to a higher gear.... and the people were supposedly "cruising" at 70 in 3rd gear? I don't think so.

What more than likely happened in those cases were they were participating in "spirited" driving and grabbed the wrong gear and as they let off the clutch and were accelerating the revs shot up and killed the engine.

alpha01

"Camry has heated seats if you pay extra and the foolish money wasted on wheels to get sunroof."

Can you explain that statement a bit?

~alpha

8u6hfd

which is why I've always felt Honda does the right thing more often...even if it kills some sales and reputation.

The solution is...if the engine were to be replaced, then the transmission needs to be replaced also...with an automatic.

bowke

i drive an s2000 on a regular basis, and yes, you can cruise at 70 mph in 3rd gear rather easily...the driver in question probably caught 2nd gear instead of 4th, and shot it over the rev limiter...it will sputter if you reach it, but will kill the engine completely if you punch through the red line enough.

8u6hfd

that's how the misshift cases happen. I drove my friend's S2000 and didn't find it to be a problem.

Sometimes people want to be Vin Diesel in the Fast and Furious...and then it happens.

Mu old Camry's rev limited was a fuel cut, which is the sputter you described.

vcheng

2000 Toyota Camry XLE V6

43K summary

Gas consumed: 1828.434 Gallons
Cost of Gas: $2910.56
Average Economy: 23.55 MPG
Best: 34.3 MPG
Worst: 16.8 MPG
Gas Cost per mile: 6.66 cents

Maintenance Cost: $2388.28
Maintenance Cost per mile: 5.5 cents

Miles Covered: 43,670
Running Cost (Gas + Maintenance): $5298.84
Running Cost per mile: 12.13 cents

Bought in November 1999 for $27,538.
Sold in October 2002 for $16,700.

Depreciation: $10,838
Depreciation per mile: 24.8 cents

Direct Cost of Ownership: 36.93 cents per mile

Insurance approx. $600 per year for 3 years = $1800
Insurance per mile: 4.12 cents

Total Cost of Ownership: 41.05 cents per mile

maxhonda99

I currently have a 2000 Accord Coupe V6. Looking to get a new car summer 2003. My & wife are expecting in Feb and the coupe will probably not work out with the baby seat. I'm considering these 2 cars as well as the INfiniti G35, Acura 3.2TL, and possibly a used Lexus ES300.

Anyway, I'm not 100% fond of my Accord. It seems Honda slept when designing the transmission as well as when it came to NVH levels. I have 33K miles and some rattles are starting to come and the transmission is not the smoothest out there. Nor does it shift when I want it to. Plus, the interior materials could be better.

Anyone driven both the 2003 Accord V6 and Camry V6? How do you think Quality compares.

bowke

im a little biased, but the gen07 accord has far better nvh overall, MUCH better materials, and a little better handling. if you are seriously looking at the cars you stated, you will be pleasantly surprised at the competitiveness of the accord with all 3. check it out, and post your opinion (probably changed...lol). we'll all be waiting.

bodydouble

Just "a little biased"?

BTW, I'm not saying you're wrong.

maxhonda99

bowke, When I Drive the Accord again, I am definately going to study it better. I'm happy with my car overall, but not as happy I feel as if I bought a Camry in 2000. Just some things which tick me off. Mainly Honda's handling of the squeaking moonroof problem-I do not find the tape the appropriate fix. the transmission problems on V6 accords. It's very un-acceptable for even 2001 models(4th year) to be having problems. And now it seems like my car is starting to get rattles in the dash at 33K miles.

NVH levels are very important. This time I may drive a used 2003 Accord to with some miles on it to see how it's holding up. Last time I bought the Accord based on Honda's long standing reputation but did not do too much research on the 6th generations problem areas.

But, I'm definately hoping they have made improvements to the 7th generation Accord in many areas.

dfong87

i think, having driven/ridden in camry's and accord's over the years, i would make the following general statements. [we recently bought a 2003 accord]

Camry's in general have a quieter, smoother, more muted ride. the trade off with the Accord, IMHO, is that there is more road feedback that allows better driveability. now, i agree, too much noise and vibration is annoying.

I think Honda made a major leap forward in terms of quietness in this new Accord...it is *much* quieter than the last generation while preserving some road feel. i think the only notable noise on the new accord that still exists is tire noise. i would guess this is both due to the tire they chose and due to noise insulation.

is this accord as quiet as the latest camry? close...but i would still say the camry's is quieter. i think the noise level in this car is comparable to the current VW Passat---ie, very good, but not exceptional like the Camry or its Lexus siblings.

rattles/squeaks: i'm a bit scared to hear about your sunroof woes and what Honda came up with a fix. our 2003 has one minor rattle/murmur. i don't think it's the moonroof, it sounds like a ruffling sound of something rubbing against foam material. i have yet to find the source and fortunately, it's not noticeable if the radio is on. still annoying. that being said, i really have not encountered too many rattle free cars. new cars are better and in being quieter, the rattles/squeaks/extra noises are more noticeable. i've been in my friend's 1999 camry and it has rattles. i don't know if they were there from the start, but there are plenty now after 30k. miles. on the other hand, my 2000 Civic (has 29k miles) which had one major rattle fixed in its first year is still rock solid and rattle free [even its moonroof!]

as far as transmission goes, i urge to test drive the new Accord. IMHO, the new transmission is fabulous. and this is coming from a 5 spd manual trans fan. [this is primarily my wife's car] i rented the last generation Accord and totally hated the transmission. the new one is ten times better in smoothness and quietness and ability to figure out what to do on a change in slope. it is as close as i've seen a "discrete" auto get to a CVT (ie, very smooth) . that being said, i think the Camry's have, in the past, always been better shifters than the Honda (automatics)...i'd need to do a careful test drive (i've only ridden in the latest generation camry, not driven) to determine if the Camry is better or worse. but i doubt it can get much better than the new Accord's.

hope these experiences and comments help

aming

I've test driven both the EX v6 Accord and the new Camry SE and both are wonderful cars. The Accord is the smoothest shifting car I've driven and the Camry is close or as smooth. The only difference I found came down to preference. As you mentioned, in the accord you get more road feel and the Camry ... total seclusion. The power of course goes to the Accord. The Camry isn't bad at all though...very decent.

Two very wonderful cars ... just a slightly different approach by the manufacturers.

bodydouble

I haven't driven the Camry but I think its power will be adequate around town because it does have 209 lb/ft of torque. But I suspect at highway speeds, highway passing or climbing hills the lower hp will come into play.

aming

I've driven my brothers camry V6(1998), and it does really well on the highways. Especially against vans, trucks and the usual slow moving vehicles. It also holds it's own against most cars. On hills...even steep ones, with 5 passengers and a full trunk load of suitcases (3) and bags, I didn't find it strugling at all (Drove for 1000 Km). I definetly wouldn't say it's a slouch in any way. As I said earlier, very decent...

maxhonda99

dfong87: Thanks for your opinion on the Accord vs. Camry. Good post.

dfong87

you're welcome. let me know if you have any more questions. of course, you should test drive both of the 2003 models (accord, camry) firsthand and decide for yourself. [then again, long term enjoyment/reliability cannot necessarily be evaluated in a test drive as you originally suggested]

one follow-up (in case you don't read the other Accord forum): i spoke too soon when i said the moonroof didn't rattle in my 2000 Civic. i was driving it last night and i realized that it does rattle: it isn't audible with the shade closed, but if the shade is open, there is a slight rattle. i'm going to have to try the silicon lube trick to see if i can get rid of it. then again, i only keep the shade open when i actually have the moonroof open or tilted. [in those cases, the outside noise masks any rattling sound]

i drove with our shade open this morning in the 2003 Accord no rattles. whew...hopefully, it will continue to be quiet.

maxhonda99

dfong87: I'm definately going to drive both. But since I'm looking to change cars in summer 2003, I still have a while to go.

The moonroof: My 00 Accord roof didn't rattle for like the 1st year either. The lube does work, but it only lasts for a few months and the squeaks/rattles come back.

bodydouble

Even the tape treatment doesn't eliminate the rattle permanently. I had mine done about 1 year ago and for the past couple of months I can hear a little bit of the rattle/squeak. Not as much as before but definitely some.

maxhonda99

bodydouble: Don't forget, that tape is eventually going to peel off. Actually, a few months ago, I had the dealer put the tape on to cut down on the rattling. The next day part of the tape peeled off, so I had to go back a few days later and have them reapply new tape. Eventually that tape is going to peel off again then what?

bowke

it will be awhile before a used 2003 is available, as they have only been out a month and a half. honda doesnt market "program cars" like the rest of the manufacturers. the only way you'll see a used one is when leases start coming due (3 years), or someone is selling their own. very rarely do we get a 1 year old accord trade-in. the new ones are pretty much all your going to have to work with for quite awhile.

maxhonda99

bowke, Demo's with miles will become available. And there are always people who will trade in after a bit of driving their car. Also, I would bet that some lemon buybacks will be sitting on dealer lots waiting for someone to buy them.

Besides, all I need is one car to drive with about 10K miles on it. Otherwise, I'll probably go with Toyota.

bowke

you actually think honda lets dealers sell lemon buybacks?? do a little more research...not even FORD is stupid enough to do that. demos will not be around anytime soon. we are one of the largest honda dealers in the midwest, and we wont have access to accords till the first of the year. by the time you get a couple thousand miles on it, you're looking at summertime. dont hold your breath. honda doesnt allow demos to go over 5999 miles. after that, it becomes a used car, and dealers park them before the 6000 mile plateau.

for all of the 2002 model year we had a total of 3 2001/2002 accords traded in. (out of 4000 deals)

maxhonda99

Honda doesn't have any control over what the dealer's do. If a dealer wants to use a car as a Demo for 10K miles and then sell it, that's the dealer's right.

Reality is, lemon buybacks do get sold thru the dealers after the manufacturer tries to fix the problems. What else are they going to do? Junk the car? I doubt it. Other manufacturer's sell their lemon buybacks thru dealers, Honda isn't any different.

Again, I'm looking for a Accord next summer, I think that is plenty of time for someone to trade in a 2003 Accord if no demo's are available.

And I don't live in the midwest, I'm in the northeast and when my car was in for warranty repair they already had a used Pilot for sale(or a demo) with a few thousand miles on it. Of course, the dealer's still trying to sell it for MSRP.

bodydouble

ARE resold thru dealers. I had a Prelude that was bought back by Honda. And what actually happened was a dealer agreed to do the buyback (with significant inducement from Honda Canada of course). They told me they will repair the car and resell it.

I imagine some lemons may be kept by the manufacturer for research, but certainly not all.

elcarion

Consumer Reports just dropped the Camry to average reliability in their latest ratings. I don't know where they rated the new Accord. The new Camry needs a tune up every 30,000 miles versus 110,000 for the new Accord. Be sure to include that in your estimated maintenance costs.
My choice between the two came down to which dealer would give me the better deal; they are right accross the street from each other. Conclusion: My new 2003 Accord just arrived this morning at the dealer!

maxhonda99

edcarion, What makes it a 110,000 mile tune-up? Spark plugs. My 2000 Accord V6 30,000 mile service cost about $250, and I'm sure a Camry doesn't run much more.

ddfdrive

I would like some advice. I am looking to purchase a new vehicle and currently have a 16 year old 5 speed Toyota Celica & love it... Peppy & Sporty!! Have had good luck with the Toyota service dept too - fair guys! Have not had experiences with Honda's or maintenance.

Problem is trying to find something sporty & peppy with decent fuel efficiency, larger than a 2 seater seems hard to do.

Have narrowed decision between 2003 Honda Accord 4 cylinder 5 speed, 2003 Toyota Camry SE 4 cylinder 5 speed and V6 Auto.

Test drove the SE Camry 5 speed and after 65 mph in 5th on a flat road, pressing accelerator to floor had no resulting increase in speed. Anyone have this problem?

Looks like to compare Accord 5 speed to Camry I have to bump the Camry to a V6 and loose the 5 speed.... but this bumps price and drops fuel ecomomy.

Anyone have advice / suggestions here?

diploid

Under those parameters, the Accord seems to be the better choice for you.

I have to caution you on the Honda maintenance/service dept, though...if you like Toyota's, you'll be in for a rude awakening when it comes to the Honda guys. My experiences with them have been pretty bad. I wouldn't call them rude, but it's as if Honda doesn't train them to be people-friendly.

talon95

On the other hand, my experience with the service department at my Honda dealership has been excellent. I'm sure you'd find good ones and bad ones in both camps.

aming

Yup! I agree. I've had enough of Toyota dealerships period. I will never buy a toyota EVER. The car itself is very nice but the service I've recieved from 3 toyota dealerships and lexus dealerships sucks and they treated me like crap. Honda has been reasonable and so my next car will be an Accord.

So, it just depends on your luck with dealerships.

vixter

I own a Camry SE-V6, from what my maintenance manual says, it doesn't require new plugs until 192,000kms(115,000miles) and from what I've gathered about the Accord w/platinum plugs, it's required at 96,000km(60,000miles). Timing belt for the Accord $480 CDN, V6 Camry $280. Non-interfering engine design from Toyota, interfering design w/ Honda. I'm not sure if Hondas still require a valve adjustment at 30,000km. Maintenance costs seem to be lower w/ Toyota plus I like the Toyota transmission alot better, it seems less quirky. Just my .02 cents.

bowke28

accord has a timing chain...no replacement of belt anymore. the accord 4-cyl. replaces plugs at 110k miles, tranny fluid and coolant are done at 120k. the big one though, is the oil change interval...12 months or 10k miles. valve adjustment comes with the plugs at 110k.

what do you mean by non-interfering???

daytona01

I have not owned a Japanese car before. Sadly to say, but Japanese cars are more reliable than our domestic ones, but I've heard that they are more expensive for maintenance.

I'm planning to buy a new car and plan to get the new 2003 Accord or a Camry.

To Accord and Camry Owners, with your best knowledge and experience, Would you please fill out the following maintenance comparison charts.

Thank you very much for your help and best wish to your driving
-Howard

			 Miles/Months($ Est. Cost)

		          Accord(LX-4) Camry (LE-4)
                          -----------  -----------
Oil and filter (Example)  10K/6($20)   3.5K/6($20)
Transmission fluid        ...	       ...
Cooling fluid	  	  ...          ...
Spark plugs  		  ...          ...
Timming Chain/Belt        ...          ...
Tires rotation		  ...          ...	
New tires                 ...          ...
New transmission ??       ...          ...

...
[Please add anything else that I'm missing ]

toyotaken

To clear up a couple of missed points here...

To compare apples and apples, the longer oil change interval on the Camry is 7,500 miles. A non-interference engine design means that if the timing belt breaks, the engine just stops running, you tow it in and have it repaced. An interference engine design means that if the timing belt breaks (new accords use a chain), the engine is toast.

As for spark plugs, radiator fluid, trans. fluid, etc. most of that on most new cars now are long-life and don't need changing until 60,000 to 120,000 miles (I still think that doing it more often would be better for the vehicle, but we'll not get into that discussion). Tire rotation at most dealers and corner shops all run about the same at about $20. New tires depend on the quality of the tires you want to buy and the size of the wheels you have. They can run anywhere from $70 to $300 each, and depends on what you prefer. As for transmissions, both Honda and Toyota are pretty much known for as "bulletproof" a transmission as there is in the industry with a couple of exceptions by both manufacturers, but don't include the accord or camry for the most part.

The Camry will give you a bit more room to spread out in with the drawback of a bit less horsepower and road feel. They tune the suspension of the camry to isolate the occupants as much as possible, which to many means that it is a bit softly sprung. The powertrain warranty is a bit longer on the Toyota, but that is arguably not a huge issue with the quality of both of these automobiles.

Styling is a personal issue and I don't want to get into a flame war here about something that is in the eye of the beholder.

As for the post earlier about flooring a camry in 5th gear with a manual trans., the 5th gear is an overdrive gear, meant for optimal gas milage, reduced engine speed, and reduced noise. If you're passing, use the manual trans. the way it's designed and downshift to pass.

If you're looking for a sportier feeling toyota with a bit more room than your celica, look at either a Camry SE (either manual or automatic) or a Solara. They're both tuned both in their transmissions and suspensions to be a bit sportier feeling.

Hope this helps.

daytona01

Toyotaken .. thanks a lot for your info (which is very helpful)

Any "pro-honda" for maintenance comparison ??

qgu

From what I have heard, Accord I4 has a chain but V6 still uses a belt which needs a replacement at some point.

accord7

qgu has it correct. Chain on I4, belt on V6. Belt on V6 is to be replaced at 60,000-90,000 miles depending on use of vehicle.

ddfdrive

Thanks for the input. qgu ... I hear what you are saying abouth 5th gear being for overdrive.. but should you have to downshift from 5th to push past 65 mph for passing? I did try downshifting to 4th but all that seemed to do was increase engine noise - still no faster. Do you think it was a maintenance problem with this one vehhicle?

Does anyone have ideas?

tblazer503

IMHO, it depends on what you are looking for in a car, my biggest hitters are resale, reliability, and safety.

The resale is a wash, I think the accord may edge out the camry, but since I wanted a 5MT, it didn't really matter...

Reliability... wash

Safety... Accord wins, hands down... I compared an Accord EX I4 5MT to a Camry SE. On the Camry I got a appearance package. I don't think it comes with SAB, ABS, or EBT. The accord had all these features standard on the EX.

What it boiled down to was that while I disliked the rear styling of the Accord, the interior styling, safety features, and value won me out. I would have been about 22,6 for an MSRP on a SE loaded to a EX Accord(security system, ABS, SAB, alloys. Not including a in-dash 6 disc changer, but the SAB addon comes w/ curtains which is only on the V6 Accord) While the EX Accord was an MSRP of 21,960. I'm spending about 700 for factory foglights and spoiler later(maybe) so it pretty much breaks even. The biggest problem in my area, was that no one had an SE in 5MT much less "fully loaded" w/ all the features I wanted.

So I got an Accord. I say test drive both. then buy the one you like, both great vehicles. I like the "sportiness" of the Accord, and the interior, but the Camry looks a little cleaner IMHO. they are pretty well matched for HP and TQ, and both have enough power for normal driving. Wish you luck.

clacker1

Up here in Canada, our next order of Camry's in January with the V6 will give us the motor currently used in the Avalon, Highlander, Sienna...and a new 5 sp. auto. These cars will arrive from Japan in Mar./Apr.

bodydouble

Where did you hear this?

8u6hfd

HOnda uses an interference engine design, where both the valves and pistons occupy the same space, at different points in time. If the luck wasn't with you, if the timing belt or chain (less likely to happen) snaps, the kiss, the engine goodbye, as the valves will make contact with the pistons.

Toyota typical uses non-inteference (some engines are interference), but for the Camry, non-interference. This means the opposite. In the chance of the belt or chain breaking, there's a slight remote change you get damage. Most of the time, put a new belt or chain, and you're ready to go.

interference design has the inherent ability to produce more power.