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Comments
Odie
Goto www.fordvehicles.com and you will see the Escape is 7.8 inches for all the Escapes except the very few which actually have the 235 tires!
Bess,
If you took the Escapes 3.7 final gear ratio and you upped it to 4.7 like the CRV, the Escape would indeed accelerate faster and would lose some of its towing power.
When I had the luxury of comparing the Escape and the CRV in my driveway the CRV has skid plates lining the underbelly. The Escpae had a much softer belly and did not have any skid plates if I remember correctly. Maybe it had one under the oil pan.
The CRV has a skid plate under the oil pan, under the gas tank, under some of the muffler etc... Go take a look at the CRV's underbelly before you go and make rhetorical untruth comments.
Isn't there a post back a month or three where our data guys talked to Ford's data guys, and their data guys said that their clearance data is wrong on their website/publications and really should be 8.x, depending on the rim, etc.? Why they don't change it if it's wrong is beyond me....
Steve
Host
SUVs, Vans and Aftermarket & Accessories Message Boards
If you took the Escapes 3.7 final gear ratio and you upped it to 4.7 like the CRV, the Escape would indeed accelerate faster and would lose some of its towing power.
Scape,
When I had the luxury of comparing the Escape and the CRV in my driveway the CRV has skid plates lining the underbelly. The Escpae had a much softer belly and did not have any skid plates if I remember correctly. Maybe it had one under the oil pan.
The CRV has a skid plate under the oil pan, under the gas tank, under some of the muffler etc... Go take a look at the CRV belly.
Goto www.fordvehicles.com and you will see the Escape is 7.8 inches for all the Escapes except the very few which actually have the 235 tires!
Skidplates, Escape has them all too.... I don't know what variant you were looking at, maybe a 2WD XLS?? Nope, I am positive all Escapes come with the same skidplates..
Dave, how many times do I have to say this. The 8.1 seconds is with a 5spd CRV AND you have to rev the He.. out of the CRV in order to achieve these numbers.. Also, try it with a full load of people/gear and see how well the CRV does.. Yeah, you keep saying the CRV can carry heavy loads. That may be so.. but it doesn't do it as well as the EScape..
Around here the mast majority of Escapes have the 15 inch rims, that was my point.
Honestly, I am tired of argueing about a fraction of a second difference between the two vehicles. I am tired of hearing you say 200 HP vs 160 HP and never reply to the tire size, gear ratio factors. I know the Escape can tow more so lets not beat this horse to death. I believe the Escape could handle payload better then the CRV, (obviously because it can tow more), although the CRV doesn't bog down like you make it out to do.
I am happy that my 4 cylinder is competitive with your 6 cylinder in the 0 to 60 trials, I am glad I drive a safer vehicle, I am glad the CRV has a FAR BETTER build quality, and as we zoom down the highway together I will enjoy the quieter cabin and I will be happier when I reach the gas station!
If you numerically up the ratio, (from a 3.7 to a 4.7) towing capacities INCREASE.
An example: if you had a manual transmission vehicle. You get more torque to the rear wheels in 3rd gear than you do in 4th.. Thus you can tow more in 3rd (which is numerically a higher gear ratio), than 4th.. (say 1.54 in third, vs 1.00 in fourth)
Another example:
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http://www.woodalls.com/rvs/advice/towtips.cfm
Gear Ratios
When shopping for a vehicle, it's important to know and ask about its gear ratio. So here's a quick and somewhat simplified overview of gear ratios and why they are important when it comes to towing.
Engines turn fast to develop horsepower. But if the truck's rear wheels were connected to the engine, you would find that the engine couldn't develop any power. Therefore, gears are used to turn the wheels more slowly than the engine. Rear end gears reduce speed, and the gear ratio indicates the amount of this reduction. A ratio of 4.10 means the engine turns 4.10 times as fast as the wheels. So when looking for a tow vehicle, remember, a high numerical ratio gives more towing power than a low numerical ratio.
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Now on gear ratios and acceleration. Generally, the higher the numerical ratio, the better the acceleration, (at the expense of top-end speed).
It is this way with Motorcycles, r/c cars, trucks and passenger cars alike.
Folk who put 'large' tires on their trucks (effectivly lowering the numerical gear ratio), suffer worse acceleration unless they compensate by replacing the gears in the front/rear diff to a numerically higher ratio.
See: http://www.superlift.com/gear.htm for an example of this:
==
Whenever larger-than-stock tires are installed on a truck, it will have a direct effect on the truck’s performance. Why? It has to do with effective gear ratio. Your truck comes from the factory with the optimum axle gear ratio to work with the truck’s engine, transmission, and stock tire combination as well as provide a good balance between acceleration and fuel economy. When taller tires are installed on a truck but the axle ratios stay the same; the effective gear ratio is reduced. This means the engine is forced to operate below its power band, and performance and fuel economy suffer as a result. In order to restore the effective gear ratio (and the truck’s performance), you’ll need to have the axle gears swapped to lower (numerically higher) ratios.
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You got me, I guess I was thinking about something else... the lower the gear ratio doesn't increase towing but does allow the vehicle to reach a higher speed. However my first point still holds, the CRV has a higher ratio and therefore some acceleration is compensated as such.
Scape,
I said:
"......skid plates if I remember correctly. Maybe it had one under the oil pan."
So you then said:
"Please quit passing on bad information."
I said if I remember correctly, so I really don't think I passed on bad information because I didn't establish real credibility. I am, however still with intmed99 I also do not remember seeing any skid plates.
On my way to work today I am going to stop at the dealer and take a look under all of the "used" Escapes and I am going to take another look. Scape, you should be right because you own the Escape, but when I looked at both the underbelly of the Escape and the CRV, the CRV did have more substance to it.
I'm not really one who cares much about what comes out of the tail pipe of my new vehicle, or how much fuel it consumes. But, has anyone ever been behind one of those mid to late eighties (ironically it's usually a Toyota, Honda, or Caravan) models that has a "Save the Planet: Plant a Tree" (or something like that) bumper sticker on its rear end? Nine times out of Ten, that car is spewing thick black smoke out of the tail pipe. Those are the vehicles that we should be worried about when we think of emissions.
The Escape isn't as clean as the CR-V, but it certainly is cleaner than all those older vehicles on the road.
Some environmentalist preach but don't live by their words and they make the rest look bad. Those cars shouldn't be on the road and all states should have some clause in the once a year inspection in which vehicles like that are not allowed on the road.
If it is just black smoke it isn't as bad as the white smoke! White smoke is burning oil and is far less friendly then burning gas. The oil has nasty levels of Zinc and so on!
http://www.businessweek.com/investor/content/sep2002/pi2002093_9742.htm
For those of you who are new to this forum, the Daily Scape is a news feature brought to you by Scape2's assertions about Ford bashing. If I'm going to be blamed for Ford bashing, I may as well have the fun of actually doing it.
Now add to that the fact that Ford is not going to invest in any new clean car programs. That is a company being irresponsible.
Why would you find it ironic that Baggs only noticed Toyota and Honda??? I have also found most of the cars he is talking about are Toyota and Honda!
The thing is... you generally don't see Fords, GM, and Dodges that are that old, they die long before the Toyotas and Hondas! Toyota and Hondas keep fighting to work even as the engine is falling apart.
davegh beat me to it, but I was going to say that according to some people around here Ford's won't be on the road long enough to apply. I can't believe you missed that opportunity hondaman!
We do have a required emissions inspection (once a year) here in PA. Since these smoke bellowing vehicles are still allowed to drive around our great Commonwealth, it's safe to say that it has been reduced to nothing more than a money making process.
"Now add to that the fact that Ford is not going to invest in any new clean car programs. That is a company being irresponsible."
You'll note in the article that GM and DC are just as guilty. A lot of people still don't care though.
Benzene is a known carcinogen and when fuel is combusted it is released into the air. Benzene is ONE of the FEW known CARCINOGENS out there! Cancer rates are up and asthma rates in children are up from pollution!
If we reduced air pollution we could essentially reduce the cost for health care! Not a bad idea, is it???
However, I still see a lot of Hyundai Pony's doing the same. What does that tell you about Ford then?
I think if you have children, polution should matter for their future and even ours!
What is a Hyundai Pony? I don't believe I've ever seen one before.
"What does that tell you about Ford then?"
It tells you that all of their older cars that are on the road don't spew black smoke! Probably because most of them are trucks with larger engines that weren't wound into next week just to get moving at a reasonable rate of speed.
I assume you are stating this based on personal experience and not Scape's rhetoric? I can say based on my experience that my 4cyl has more than enough speed without getting anywhere near the red line. Its just that my 4cyl is a much better design than your 6cyl.
It was directed at Honda engines in general. Your I4 is pretty much the only Honda engine that does not need to be "wound up" to take off. Our Civic EX (1.6L VTEC) barely moves at all unless you take the tach to 3000+ rpms before letting the clutch out.
Are Honda's engines designed better? Maybe.
Are they more efficient and refined? I think so.
An engine can be very well designed but if the follow through isn't done well, the quality of that design is rendered moot. Honda seems to have followed through pretty well on the 2.4. Ford followed through on the 3.0's design very well with the Jaguar version. The version in the Escape and Taurus could be better power and refinement wise. Overall it is a pretty darn good engine though.
Also, keep in mind that Honda did increase the displacement of their CR-V engine in order to get that power at a lower rpm. They can definitely squeeze more power out of it (look at the 2.0's in the S2000 or RSX) but you would again be "winding" it up to get moving.
http://www.afreserve.com/racing/offroad_home.asp
More on this in the Oct. 2002 issue of MT.
Odie
My uncle owed a garage and retired after he found out how much he would have had to pay for all the new equipment. That is also why the price on the test went up..it was so the people who had to purchase the equipment got reimbursed.
Odie
http://beta.vtec.net/news/news-item?news_item_id=35298
OK maybe worthless was going a little too far. I just hate having to pay for the stupid test on brand new cars.
I was mostly referring to the garages that just basically hand out "passed" stickers to friends and family no matter what condition their car is in. It happens more than you might think. Could be less than I think too though.
- Base Price MSRP is $2,330 less.
- Destination Charge is $105 less.
- ALG Residual Value after 36 months is 12% greater.
- ALG Residual Value after 60 months is 12% greater.
- CR-V 4WD EX gets 3 more mpg than Escape XLT 4X4 Choice in City Driving.
- CR-V 4WD EX gets 2 more mpg than Escape XLT 4X4 Choice in Highway Driving.
- CR-V 4WD EX features Rear Disc Brakes.
- Stereo Anti-Theft is Standard on CR-V 4WD EX but Not Available on Escape XLT 4X4 Choice.
- Air Filtration is Standard on CR-V 4WD EX but Optional on Escape XLT 4X4 Choice.
- Power Sunroof/Moonroof is Standard on CR-V 4WD EX but Optional on Escape XLT 4X4 Choice.
- Remote Trunk/Tailgate Release is Standard on CR-V 4WD EX but Not Available on Escape XLT 4X4 Choice.
- Remote Fuel Filler Door Release is Standard on CR-V 4WD EX but Not Available on Escape XLT 4X4 Choice.
- Maintenance Interval Indicator is Standard on CR-V 4WD EX but Not Available on Escape XLT 4X4 Choice.
- Cassette Player is Standard on CR-V 4WD EX but Optional on Escape XLT 4X4 Choice.
- Splash Guards are Standard on CR-V 4WD EX but Optional on Escape XLT 4X4 Choice.
- CR-V 4WD EX has 164 less pounds of Curb Weight for Automatic Transmission.
- CR-V 4WD EX has 5.6 more inches in Length.
- CR-V 4WD EX has 0.1 more inches in Width.
- CR-V 4WD EX has 5.9 more cubic feet of Manufacturer's Passenger Volume.
- CR-V 4WD EX has 0.5 more cubic feet of Manufacturer's Cargo Volume.
- CR-V 4WD EX has 3.0 inches more of Second-Row Legroom.
- CR-V 4WD EX has 0.6 inches more of Front Shoulder Room.
- CR-V 4WD EX has 0.6 inches more of Second-Row Shoulder Room.
- CR-V 4WD EX has 1.1 inches more of Front Hiproom.
- CR-V 4WD EX has 4.5 inches more of Second-Row Hiproom.
I see a better value here...except if you want want towing.
As to the CR-V vs. Escape V-6 comparison, I don't think the CR-V has a clear advantage over the Escape. I think the CR-V is somewhat more refined (smooth engine, quiet ride) but less responsive (lethargic acceleration, soft ride).
Both are excellent choices with different strengths and weaknesses.
The 2002 CR-V EX sells for MSRP in the real world, and that's $22,700.
The 2002 Escape XLT Choice with moonroof will sell for $200 over invoice, or $23,400. Add a $1,000 rebate, and the Escape costs $300 less than the CR-V.
And the Escape includes a V-6 engine (40 more HP!), 16" alloys, power driver seat, and a more robust AWD/4X4 system.
Those are good points and I am sure that the Escape has other advantages as well.
They are both good vehicles, but given my needs and expectations I think the CRV is better for me.
My reason for pointing out the benefits of the Escape is simply to discount the "Honda is the best, forget the rest" crowd.
I had never even looked at an Escape until three days ago, when my next door neighbor came home with a brand new Escape XLT Sport. It's red with tow package, MACH audio, and modular roof rack (very cool!).
I drove it two days ago and all I can say is WOW! It's fast, handles like a sport sedan, and is handsome, comfortable, and well built. I simply wasn't expecting it to be as good as it is!
He paid $23,000 after the rebate.
Different strokes for different folks...
Looks like Honda finally got sick of all the bad exhaust and did something to help all auto manufacturers out.
Comparing the same 2 vehicles you did:
-Escape has automatic tranny, CRV has manual tranny (if you get the automatic tranny CRV the price difference is only 1300, not what you state).
-Escape has Driver Multi-Adjustable Power Seat, CRV does not.
-Ford has power retention system, CRV does not (I can explain what this is if you like)
-Ford extra console storage
-Larger wheels
-The am/fm+CD+Cassette (rather than just am/fm+CD), is available from the factory at no extra charge..
According to the Ford site:
==
Ford Escape XLT 4X4 Choice has 41.0 more units of Horsepower.
Ford Escape XLT 4X4 Choice has 34.0 more units of Torque.
Ford Escape XLT 4X4 Choice has 566.0 more ccs of Displacement.
Ford Escape XLT 4X4 Choice has a greater Bore X Stroke value than Honda CR-V 4WD EX.
Ford Escape XLT 4X4 Choice has Compression Ratio of 10 while Honda CR-V 4WD EX has Compression Ratio of 9.6.
Battery Saver/Rune Down Protection is standard on Ford Escape XLT 4X4 Choice but not available on Honda CR-V 4WD EX.
Ford Escape XLT 4X4 Choice has 2000.0 more pounds of Maximum Tow Capacity.
Ford Escape XLT 4X4 Choice has 200.0 more pounds of Standard GVWR.
Ford Escape XLT 4X4 Choice has 200.0 more pounds of Maximum GVWR.
Ford Escape XLT 4X4 Choice has 0.8 more inches of Front Track.
Ford Escape XLT 4X4 Choice has 0.4 more inches of Rear Track.
Ford Escape XLT 4X4 Choice has 1.0 more gallons of Fuel Capacity.
Ford Escape XLT 4X4 Choice has 1.5 more inches of Front Head Room.
Ford Escape XLT 4X4 Choice has 0.3 more inches of Second Row Head Room.
Ford Escape XLT 4X4 Choice has 2.9 more inches in Width.
========
I see a better value here. Plus I have better performance and handling with better towing ability if I want.
Also, Ford has additional factory options that are available, whereas Honda does not have factory options.
-Leather seats
-in dash 6cd changer, with 7speaker system
-Tow hitch
-side step bars
-heated seats
Bess - One correction. The "am/fm CD" in the CR-V is a six disk CD unit. It is standard with the EX and is likely to be of greater appeal than the Ford's cassette. It also comes tweeters mounted in the dash (standard).
True, 160hp from a 2.4L is nothing to write home about. Cars like the 220hp RSX-R generate plenty more hp, but not as much torque and not in the same rpm band. Others make use of turbos to help cure the torque issues, but then you get into a host of other drawbacks.
But with 160hp and 162 ft-lbs, LEVII emissions, a flat torque curve, and decent mpg on regular gas is a little more impressive. Compare the Honda 2.4L to anything else in the same displacement range and put to similar use. Then it starts to look pretty good.
Honda says the CRV is wider by 0.1 inches
Ford says they are wider by 2.9 inches
Huh???
The extra displacement AND variable valve timing both contribute to the CR-V's excellent torque rating. VVT also helps keep emissions down.
When will the domestics jump on the VVT train?
Also, what comes standard in the Escape is a singleCD + am/fm (no cassette). Honda indicated that the lack of cassette in the Escape was an advantage to Honda. But Ford also has a CD+Cassette as well for no charge.. BUT, I dont think Ford has a 6cd changer with cassette.. oh well. Guess Honda does have a slight edge there. (I threw all my casettes out years ago).
One admission: I'm not all that impressed by the 7speaker system in the Escape. yeah, it has all of these cool surround, jazz hall, stadium, and other modes, but I seem to just like the plain old normal mode. I feel the sound is not that much better than the simple 4speaker arrangement in my SuperDuty. Obviously not an audio freak by any means, I listen to a few CD's and mostly NPR for news.
One cool thing I did add in myself was an overhead (drop down lcd) video system for the rear seats. Comes with wireless IR headphones for the kids so I can listen to what I want while they watch movies. The kids love it.
I also agree that given equal displacement engines, Honda really does well! Not only are they strong from the factory, but there are alot of folks who have tweaked them (superchargers, turbos etc) to really make them fly.
Bess,
I think the Honda radio sounds good for a stock radio, but it does lack depth compared to my after market system in my previous vehicle. If you add the sub woofer option to the CRV I guess it doesn't sound that good and isn't worth the $$$. I also listen to NPR most of the time and I will occaisonally listen to Rush because I like to sit there and disagree with almost every other word that comes out of his mouth.
2.4-liter double overhead cam (DOHC)
16-valve VVT-i 4-cylinder
155 hp @ 5,600 rpm,
163 lb.-ft. @ 4,000 rpm
It doesn't seem as robust as the CRV's engine at mid-rpms.
This engine is used in the new Camry and Highlander. I wonder if this will also go on the next RAV4...'03 RAV4 still has the 2.0L (148HP) engine.
Actually, Ford's Zetec engine (Focus, ZX2, Escape) has what they call VCT. It's not quite as nice as VVT because, as I understand it, it only controls the timing and lift on the exhaust valves. Close but no cigar I guess.
bess and varmint,
All Escape XLT's (2002 and on I believe) come with a 6 disc in dash CD changer standard. The single disc with cassette is optional at no extra charge through the dealer. The Midnight XLT edition comes with the MACH. I know this because it is on Ford's web site, and because some of the Escape's on the lot actually had the single CD/Cassette listed as a dealer installed no-charge option on the sticker. I believe they might have been using 2001's to compare in those previous posts.
All XLS' come standard with the single CD and cassette.