Edmunds dealer partner, Bayway Leasing, is now offering transparent lease deals via these forums. Click here to see the latest vehicles!
Options
Most popular vehicles
Popular New Cars
- New Acura MDX
- New Acura RDX
- New Audi Q5
- New BMW 3 Series
- New BMW X3
- New Buick Enclave
- New Cadillac Escalade
- New Chevrolet Equinox
- New Chrysler 300
- New Dodge Challenger
- New Ford Edge
- New Ford Escape
- New Ford Expedition
- New Ford Explorer
- New Ford F-150
- New Ford Focus
- New Ford Mustang
- New Honda Accord
- New Honda Civic
- New Honda CR-V
- New Honda Fit
- New Honda Odyssey
- New Honda Pilot
- New Hyundai Elantra
- New Hyundai Santa Fe
- New Hyundai Sonata
- New Hyundai Tucson
- New Jeep Compass
- New Jeep Grand Cherokee
- New Jeep Wrangler
- New Mazda 3
- New Mazda 6
- New Mazda CX-5
- New Nissan Altima
- New Nissan Maxima
- New Nissan Rogue
- New Porsche Cayenne
- New Ram 1500
- New Subaru Crosstrek
- New Subaru Forester
- New Subaru Impreza
- New Subaru Outback
- New Tesla Model S
- New Tesla Model X
- New Toyota 4Runner
- New Toyota Camry
- New Toyota Corolla
- New Toyota Highlander
- New Toyota Prius
- New Toyota RAV4
- New Toyota Sienna
- New Toyota Tacoma
- New Volkswagen Jetta
- New Volvo XC60
- New Volvo XC90
Popular Used Sedans
- Used BMW 5 Series
- Used Chevrolet Impala
- Used Chevrolet Malibu
- Used Chrysler 200
- Used Dodge Charger
- Used Ford Fusion
- Used Ford Taurus
- Used Honda Accord
- Used Honda Civic
- Used Hyundai Elantra
- Used Hyundai Sonata
- Used Tesla Model S
- Used Toyota Camry
- Used Toyota Corolla
- Used Volkswagen Jetta
Popular Used SUVs
- Used Acura MDX
- Used Acura RDX
- Used Ford Edge
- Used Ford Explorer
- Used Honda CR-V
- Used Honda Pilot
- Used Hyundai Santa Fe
- Used Jeep Compass
- Used Lincoln Navigator
- Used Mazda CX-5
- Used Nissan Rogue
- Used Subaru Crosstrek
- Used Subaru Forester
- Used Tesla Model X
- Used Volvo XC90
Popular Used Pickup Trucks
Popular Used Hatchbacks
Popular Used Minivans
Popular Used Coupes
Popular Used Wagons
Comments
But whatever reason people are buying them, I bet less than 5% of the owners actually tow or go off-road with their true American SUVs.
We discussed the 'Toyota in NASCAR' thing a while back. I thought you might find that announcement interesting. It was purely for your enjoyment. Nothing else was meant by it.
I was just reading MT's preview of the upcoming race season last night. It's in their latest issue if you're interested. Ferrari does seem to be the team to look out for again this year. I admit that I'm lost when it comes to the open wheelers. I lost interest several years ago.
"There are many vehicles that out power or out pull the CRV easily and it still sold more than 30000 copies than the Escape last year."
As of the end of December 2002, the CR-V outsold the Escape by 795 units. Here are the links again:
Ford:
http://media.ford.com/article_display.cfm?article_id=13955
Honda:
http://hondanews.com/forms/corp/sales/02dec.html
Where did you get 30,000 from?
What...
...sorry, I had to pick myself up off of the floor after I fell out of my chair laughing.
So you're trying to tell us that people will buy more copies of a vehicle if it is cheaper than it's competitor, but still comparable. Right? It makes sense on paper, but it doesn't always work.
For example, the most popular Explorer is the XLT (I think). The sticker price for a 4WD XLT V6 is $33,880. That's without any options. The price for a Pilot EX (I would assume it to be the most popular) is $29,730. Edmunds' TMV is $30,510 after dealer markup. Factor in the Explorer's rebates and all that other stuff, it's TMV is $30,979.
Here the theory does not work.
Now this does work in the case of the CR-V and Escape because the CR-V is cheaper and did sell more last year. A loaded CR-V is still cheaper than a loaded Escape after incentives. Sticker price for a 4WD Escape XLT (popular 2 package) is $24,615. TMV is $23,186. The CR-V EX auto trans stickers for $22,860. TMV is $21,627.
The Escape trim which really competes with the EX is even more expensive, but probably isn't the most popular.
diploid how do you know Ford reports all these together? please supply a link, or is this once again a rumor..
Hondaman, why is it your personal stories about Honda reliability are ok, yet my stories about all the Fords I have owned and their reliability are not ok?? You are brainwashed my man.. The Explorer vs Pilot?? How can you say these are going to be reliable vehicles? the Pilot has no history?? Once again pure Honda bias at its best..
Your $21,800 price is fantastic! Congrats on that! Here in Austin when I was shopping the Cr-V and Escape (Nov 02) no dealer came even close to that price even with rebates. The difference was between 1-2K.
I am a first time honda owner so I have no previous "honda brainwashing" in my background. Truthfully we are a Toyota family but the RAV4 didn't cut it when compared to the Cr-V or Escape. Many back to back test drives is what ultimately swayed us in the Cr-V but as all of do we ask our friends, family, and people we work with for their experiences with their vehicles. In this case Honda and Ford. As I went through this process I found many happy Honda owners ended up being former big 3 owners. Their primary complaint......Reliability!! I know, many of your stories are just the opposite and that's fine. It's what many of base our decisions on because it's valid ownership experiences from people we trust.
Reed
02 CR-V EX Auto
I am only using my personal experiences because that is what everyone else does as well as you. If your vehicle is going well..........than great for you! I will repeat that I have been renting vehicles for 20 years with our company and let me tell you I have ran into some weird problems with domestics and none with imports except Suzuki and Nissan. I know I am only one person but I find it very strange that you try to down play proven facts.
It is not that I don't like domestics, it is just that I am not sure I could trust owning them for 4 or 5 years. I wish I could because you can get some great deals these days! Don't get me wrong scape, I respect your fight because that is what you should do if you enjoy your car but don't be so one-sided by calling me brainwashed after I have driven more miles in a Ford than you have! Reading reviews is one thing but having hands on experience is another!
Baggs.....I did not mean to sound ungreatful for your post about Toyota and NASCAR. I just was surprised that after what you mentioned a while back concerning this issue that they actually went ahead and made a move. Also, for the 30000 units for the CRV, I read this not long ago and I will try to find the link for you BUT is it really accurate?? Who knows.
Scape one last thing.........you say how do we know that the Pilot will be reliable? Well, that is easy..........it is a MDX in disguise and lower trim.......this vehicle has been very reliable but not perfect and has won many reviews in long-term reliability compared to the Explorer BUT once again I liked the Explorer and that is as well a reliable car so don't misquote me here!
"Frankly, we didn't do ourselves any favor by pushing Taurus into rental fleets the way we did to get the volumes," Padilla said. "That kind of commoditized the product."
CNN Money
Steve, Host
I guess it would be silly to think they do / have done that with other models.
Incentives.
Fleet sales.
How long can you ignore the man behind the curtain?
Fleet sales.
Here's why:
http://www.detnews.com/2003/autosinsider/0302/14/a01-84198.htm
It's not because of Honda.
It was in response to
Popularity contests are better judged by sales anyway. Yes the CR-V was more popular than the Escape (but not the Escape and Tribute twins) last year. It was pretty close though.
and
The Explorer is still ontop of the sales charts even after all the bad publicity.. Face it the Ford Explorer is a great vehicle, if it was so terrible why is it still ontop????
and countless other posts where incentives and fleet sales are played down.
Since when is the Pacific NW representative of the entire nation? Your market could be the high, mine could be the low. What's happening in your backyard can hardly be deemed representative of everywhere. I think Edmunds bases their numbers on feedback from all areas. And just because the paper lists a price doesn't mean they are going for that price.
EVERYTHING I have seen where Honda has 0% has excluded the CRV & Pilot. Those dipped as low as 1.9.
And going WAY back to your comment on your dealer friend saying its hard to get a 5 speed, I'd say its about as hard as getting a photo with Santa at Christmas. Its not hard at all, you just have to wait your turn for a product in demand.
Hey, what's a few percentage points among friend anyhow? :-)
tidester, host
They're played down because they're not as major as they are sometimes made out to be.
"Frankly, we didn't do ourselves any favor by pushing Taurus into rental fleets the way we did to get the volumes," Padilla said. "That kind of commoditized the product. The product is better than its image, that's my view of it," he said.
So, they sold the car to rental agencies just to inflate numbers and they screwed their product's image in the process.
But, they probably only did that with the Taurus...rightttttt.
Incentives.
Fleet sales.
The main reason the big3 remain at the top of sales charts.
Total American Honda vehicle sales of 1,247,834, up 3.3 percent
American Honda light truck sales of 409,231, up 33.0 percent
Total Honda division vehicle sales of 1,082,282, up 4.3 percent and an increase for the ninth consecutive year
Honda division total light truck sales of 356,276, up from an all-time record in 2000 of 266,857
Honda Odyssey sales of 153,467, up 17.1 percent
Honda CR-V sales of 146,266, up 23.6 percent
Honda S2000 sales of 9,684, up slightly
Acura MDX sales of 52,955, up 29.3 percent
Without 0%. Without cash-back. Without major fleet sales.
"A replacement for the aging Windstar..."
"...less expensive than the aging Cavalier"
Those were combined with promises about new models being added to the lines. It's like they've got to reinvent the wheel with each redesign. Meanwhile, the older models from other makes are still selling strong. The Accord, Camry, Miata, Civic, Jetta, Corolla, Outback, and others are doing fine after several generations.
Just an odd observation.
This is probably the author's fault. The tone of that article gives the impression that volume is the biggest concern for Chevy and Ford. It doesn't matter if they make any money on each car, so long as they sell a bunch of them. It sounds like they want market share for the bragging rights alone.
American Honda truck up 33%
Was there big losses in the car segment?
Maybe you don't watch TV, but Honda advertises their year end clearance every year. Low, usually 1.9%, interest rates and cash back are always involved. However, they seem to show the Civic and Accord more often than anything else in those ads which would lead me to believe that they do make too many of those. It makes sense because those are their two best sellers.
"American Honda truck up 33%"
They added a new model to the lineup. Of course their sales will be up by a lot. The Element will help that number again this year.
My wife and I just got back from the Pittsburgh Auto Show. I'll keep away from reporting our thoughts on cars and focus on trucks/vans. We went there with thoughts of expanding our family, and what will we need in the future if that happens. This all came about because my sister-in-law is pregnant with her third child and their biggest vehicle is a 2001 CR-V. We don't want that to happen to us.
Here's what impressed us the most (in order of preference):
Honda Odyssey EX - Decent third row leg room, airy interior feeling, about 1 million cup holders, powerful engine, DVD entertainment system (I'm not to keen on that though. What ever happened to enjoying the scenery?), fold flat third row seat, rear seating HVAC, fuel mileage (compared to SUV's).
Ford Expedition XLT - Unbelievable amount of third row leg room, fold flat third row seat, DVD, rear seating HVAC, 4WD, king of the road feeling from the driver's seat, can haul a small car in the cargo area. However, the fuel mileage is atrocious.
Volvo XC90 - There are just too many good things to mention about this SUV. Unfortunately, price is not one of them. Unbelievable vehicle!
Other than that, we didn't really go ga ga over anything else.
The Pilot was pretty weak when you compare it to the Odyssey. It's only real advantage is AWD. It actually seemed more boring than it's van cousin.
The Windstar needs updated in a big way (the Freestyle is coming though).
The Explorer/Mountaineer twins are very nice, but not quite big enough in the third row (the Pilot suffers from this too).
Caravan's are kind of nice, but we felt claustrophobic when inside.
Kia's new SUV is quite nice as well (too small as well), but the cheap leather smelled like road kill. Literally.
We didn't even venture over to the Chevy vans, (pun intended) or SUV's because neither of us likes the way they look.
I think that's it...
Rememeber, the Car and Driver has rules for their 10best cars / 5best trucks listing for judging.
The only vehicles that qualify for the list are the ones that won the year before, or any vehicle that had a significant body/design change, or be a totally new model all together, and they have to be 2003 Models for the 2003 lists.
So the Pilot had this won almost hands down as did the CR-V. Next year The best Full size truck will be the F-150 because of the major design change for the 2004 model, and the Aviator will probally get the Mid-size SUV title because it's a 2004 model and the new SUV on the market.
Odie
In my region (Pacific NW) the CRV has NO price advantage over a like optioned Escape. If you move into an EX CRV you will pay about $200 less than a limited Escape.
Hondaman.. how do you know you have driven more miles in a Ford than I have? You forget the vehicles you were driving in were rentals? Meaning not well cared for. I have had great experiences with Ford products and know many others who have also. I have stopped asking people about thier Escapes/Tribs. I stopped at about 25-30. all different model levels/years and NOT ONE had these catastrophic failures some speak so highly of in this room.. And with sales up for the Escape it looks like the word is spreading..:-)
After seeing the Pilot and CR-V live and in person, I can't see how it got on that list. The CR-V is like a Mardi-gras parade compared to the Pilot. I think the hood scoop on the 4Runner is waaaay over the top, but it would have been a better choice for that list in my opinion.
Keep in mind that this opinion is purely driven from seeing them on a convention center floor. I have not driven them.
I can understand the CR-V's place on that list due to the Escape's history. No big deal. It still wins some of the comparisons when past quality issues aren't involved in the scoring. Think MT and Edmunds' editor's most wanted if you don't know what I'm talking about. There are others.
And speaking of scape2's Northwest, an article in my Phila Inquirer today says Oregon's budget deficit is so high that, in order to save money, they'll close the Portland schools in mid-May, they're setting prisoners free from county jail, and they're cutting off paying for meds for mental-health patients. Very serious, tough times.
So, yeah, I expect there are plenty of incentives on vehicles there.
I have rented many Fords for our company at one time and have not been impressed. The company I rent from (Budget in Canada) is always our choice because we always get very new cars with none or little millage. I don't bite your theory of beating up a car in the first 2000km's cause I have rented Toyotas and Hondas with 10000 or more and have had NO problems! Remember the Tribute I had only had 300km's! Your 20 to 30 people are not many compared to what I have experienced in 20 years. Like I said....if you love your car that is great......the argument here is that I have had very bad experiences with domestics that reflects my opinion over the last 20 years. I respect yours so you respect mine.
Baggs....I am a little surprised by your choice of a Honda mini-van!!!!! I figured you would of gone for the Windstar or the newer one coming out soon!
It was easily the most appealing van there. That can still change though. The Freestar (the minivan formerly know as Windstar) will most likely have all of the Odyssey's fancy doo-dads and then some if Ford did their homework. If not, there's still hope because there will be a Mercury version too.
"Looks like incentives, etc, will continue to increase due to a weak (weakening?) economy."
I saw a Toyota commercial last night announcing their new incentive packages. $500 cash back on all models and/or 3.9% financing in my area. Go to http://www.buyatoyota.com (need to enter your zip code) to find out what's offered in your area if you want.
The incentives seem to be spreading as suvshopper kind of eluded to.
"Think MT and Edmunds' editor's most wanted if you don't know what I'm talking about. There are others."
Also check Edmunds's readers' most wanted. And of course, C&D (and last year's issue too, where the CR-V did compete with the Escape).
You have no idea of what is going on in this state. The money is available. I alone pay $3,000 dollars a year in property taxes, this does not include my income tax, my tax on my phone, utilities, cable, gas tax, nor the "user fees" I pay in this state to fish, skii ect... Oregon is not a poor state, just a poorly run state..
In the news:
"Some Detroit executives are concerned that Gen Y already sees SUVs as uncool, the same way boomers began to see sports cars as unfashionable in the crunchy early '90s (when the SUV began its rise and people liked Hootie & the Blowfish). Only one SUV is among the top 10 vehicles bought by those under 24—Ford's Escape, which is No. 8"
Time
Steve, Host
I know. I was comparing one winner with another one while also comparing one of those, the Pilot, two with a competitor. Sorry for the confusion.
I can see how the CR-V made it. It is innovative if nothing else. I just don't see how the Pilot made that list because there are several more well rounded choices that it competes with. I don't think the new 4Runner competed in their "5 Best" yet (Don't they re-test in the summer?), so we'll have to wait and see.
varmint,
Brace yourself up there. We woke up this morning to about 13-14 inches of snow. Take my advice, shovel early and often. I didn't.
You called my post Oregon bashing? It wasn't.
Your post, however...
More info needed: You say you pay $3,000 a year in property taxes. That is only part of the story. What is the assessed value of the property?
http://www.caranddriver.com/xp/Caranddriver/5best/2003/2003_5best- _trucks_nominees.xml
The 4Runner was tested.
So they do that in November I guess. I still stand by my opinion.
I never realized how unproductive that test really is. If you don't win the previous year, they don't even bother to test again. What if some improvements are made? Things do change from year to year.
Why is the MDX grouped with the Pilot? It should be in the Luxury SUV category I would think. I also don't see how they didn't find it to be better than the Pilot. If price was the reason, put it with the right group.
And to continue in the off-topic vein, here's a link to the Chevrolet Equinox discussion.
Steve, Host
My priorities are 4WD, ABS and prefer a manual transmission, which is not available in the Ford. The 4WD is not negotiable, neither is the ABS. But if I have to, I'll drive an automatic.
Any input would be appreciated.
As far as convenience, I believe both vehicles have the power windows, locks, A/C, keyless entry and CD player (1 is plenty).
Engine size - it appears both have decent power, but perhaps one has better gas mileage?
All XLT Escape's come with ABS as standard equipment. A lower end XLS V6 does not, but you can add it for about $500.
With the CR-V you have to buy the high end trim if you want the system.
I think varmint said the same as above only in not so many words.
The CR-V does consume less fuel, but only by 2-3 mpg either way. 21/25 for the CR-V with manual tranny, 18/23 for the Escape V6. However, the Escape does have a larger gas tank which allows it to travel nearly the same distance on one tank as the CR-V.