Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

ljwalters1

I appreciate your assessment. I have a TL and didn't bother looking at the BMWs b/c I needed a larger car, too. It would've had to be a 5-series, and there's no way I could afford it.

Anyway, I love my '04 6MT TL w/Nav, and don't understand other posters' comments re turns. The TL handles great - nice and tight, yet very comfortable. The only negative is torque steer. In fact, while I'm sure BMW are faster, my TL gives me more power than I can use. Great acceleration, great handling, great features, etc. Only problem is the torque steer.

realty_pro

I test drove the 05TL, 05 G35 and 05 3 series. I totally disagree with the aforementioned assessment, as I opted for the G35 sedan. I added the sport suspension with 18inch rims and the handling is right in the 3 series' league. The RWD drive is the number one attribute to a real performance car and that eliminated the TL. In addition, the TL & 3 series doesn't have the "umfff" factor that the G has. The power and acceleration is head snapping. Infiniti put there dollars into the performance...

byronwalter

...it is a very good value and I felt that it would make an excellent high-speed cruiser. But the car just didn't feel good or dialed in when going through curves... at least as compared to the 330i I drove or even my under-powered Audi A4 with the itty-bitty 1.8 turbo (Quattro). I admit that this is solely my subjective impression as the test data that I have read in car mags indicate that the TL does generate good handling numbers. But the communication just doesn't seem to be there. The TL I drove really didn't like fast, tight turns. Might just have been that the tires weren't at a proper pressure. But can't argue with the TL pricing... the car is a nice deal, especially compared to the 330i. But between the two I'd shell out the extra $$$ for the bimmer (but I guess I better give the G35 a look).

Byron

djocks

I would look at the 5 series more also if it were not out of my budget.

I am going to drive the TL again on Tuesday but the first time I thought it drove very nice. The acceleration was, as you said, all I would ever need and the creature comforts and toys on the inside are absolutely second to none. Torque steer aint gonna bother my none on the merrit pkwy in CT and it just those times when you really feel like having fun that you will see the difference.

I can not get over how BMW improved so much on what was already the best driving experience in the class. I am also looking hard into an x3. I just wish I liked the look more.

djocks

Anyway, I will keep you posted

ljwalters1

"it just those times when you really feel like having fun that you will see the difference"

That's been my experience.

Regarding the looks of the BMW, I decided awhile ago the exterior looks of a vehicle is tertiary (even less important than secondary!!!!). Yes, it can provide an "Ooohh" factor with the valet, but if the interior is nice and the drive is good, that's all I care about.

aaargh

When it comes right down to it, the choice between the TL, BMW, and G35 is about what is important to you.

If performance is what is most important to you, the BMW or G35 is the way to go. They both excel (excuse the pun) in the performance department. But, IMHO, they are a little shy in the size, comfort, and luxury area.

If you are looking for a mix of good (albeit not top notch) performance with luxury, the TL is hard to beat, especially at several thousand less than the comparably equipped BMW and G35.

I test-drove all 3 (‘05 BMW, not ’06). I bought and am very happy with my TL.

ljwalters1

Good assessment. Reminds me of a post I read where someone called the TL a sporty luxury car and the G35 a sports car with some luxury features.

esfoad

Hi guys, jumping in a little late here in this discussion, but I also test drove all the above in addition to the Avalon and the Maxima. I eneded up with the G35X for a couple of reasons. IMHO it handles as well as the BMW, the brakes were a little better than the BMW. The Acura is a really nice piece but I felt cramped in it. I'm 6'-1" and around 265lbs. Also the back seat of the TL seamed smaller than the G35X's. I believe that any of the cars you are looking at will make you smile. It's a tribute to the manufacturers that we are having this discussion. Enjoy whichever one you choose and good luck with her.

laurasdada

So, you really don't like the Lexus ES huh?

They are all very good cars. The one you buy, is of course, the best. I bought my '05 TL over the G35x for the smoother, quieter ride and (IMHO) superior exterior/interior style and interior materials.

frisconick

Consumer Reports and Car and Driver, both tested these cars and the TL was the fastest, even faster than the G35 coupe. Only the BMW M3 was faster than the TL for about 10,000 more. The BMW has slightly better road feel, but the TL handles great around tight turns. I think some of you people are just in love with BMW label. The TL is the best value and a great car. :P

kdshapiro

Unfortunately CRs testing is not duplicated in the real world. While it's true the TL did post good numbers in the slalom, the 3 series beat the TL by a big margin in emergency handling and other manuevers

So if you want to drive around slaloms in your daily commute and if you want the toys and don't mind torque steer get the TL. If you want a drivers car get the 3 or G35.

frisconick

Yes the BMW does handle better but CR rated the TL handling as excellent, but I disagre, the TL is a drivers car. Additionally the G35 fish tails unexpectadly. They also said the 2005 TL is "deviod of torque steer" I test drove a 330i, plus the G35 Coupe and they didn't feel faster than the TL to me. In fact the TL, as reported again by CR was faster in:

0 - 30
0 - 60
quarter mile

frisconick

BMW M3 333hp 55.5mph
Acura TL 270hp 52.5mph

This makes the TL very competitive with BMW re cornering. However CR did say the TL is not "as nimble as the BMW or the Mercedes C class", but it's not bad.

lmacmil

" The one you buy, is of course, the best."

And I will add "for your particular needs."

It's silly to argue one choice over another based on a magazine review. The magazine reviewers have different sets of criteria. CR is biased towards overall functionality. They view the car as a transportation appliance. The enthusiast magazines are looking primarily at overall performance. Since most of us don't have California's exciting canyon roads to traverse, that last little bit of handling prowess that the BMW may provide over the FWD TL isn't a meaningful differentiator.

I find the R&T and C&D reviews a little more helpful since they come up with a numeric score. That allows the reader to weigh his/her criteria differently and possibly arrive at a different conclusion.

As has been pointed out many times, these (G, TL, 3) are all very good cars and most of us would be happy with any one of them. Ultimately, it's probably going to be something subjective (e.g., interior quality, exterior appearance) that sways us to one over another.

frisconick

Excellent post! CR does push the cars for performance and CR does not accept advertising so I believe they are more objective. They also give scores based on many criteria. I was just responding to people who claim the TL is a slow, ponderous, car. When in fact it's faster than most BMWs and corners almost as good.

shipo

"They also said the 2005 TL is "deviod of torque steer"..."

Horse hockey! I couldn't give one rip what was published in CR, I drove a 3-Pedal TL, and my friends, that thing has TORQUE STEER. Period, full stop, the end.

Best Regards,
Shipo

fedlawman

Here we go again.

I hope Riez can bring his LSD posts, those are good too...

frisconick

Horse hockey! lol

I bought a TL for my wife so it had to be an automatic so I have not driven a TL MT. I will check it out for myself this weekend. I am now in the market for a car for myself, so this forum is really helping out, thanks all.

However, when professional drivers, who work for a non-profit organization, who spend hours testing a car, tells me there is no torque steer, I believe them. But, Shipo, if you and your friends found it did have torque steer, I will be on alert, thanks. I just something else :shades:

frisconick

I just might buy something else.

lmacmil

"I drove a 3-Pedal TL, and my friends, that thing has TORQUE STEER."

If I recall various reviews correctly, the manual has lots of torque steer but the automatic very little. I think it was C&D who said they preferred the auto TL due to the torque steer of the manual.

frisconick

I have never experienced torque steer, is it a serious problem? If so the TL is out and the G35 and BMWi are my next choice. Love the exterior of the G35 coupe, especially the black ones.

byronwalter

torque steer is not a problem... it's a characteristic of FWD. The MT TL that I drove had it and I didn't like it. But it does sound as if there is ...for reason(s) unknown to me... less torque steer in the auto tranny variant TL. which I did not dirve (never have owned an AT-equipped car). Only a small amount of us "lunatic fringe" types are really bothered by torque steer. FWD and all, the Acura is a pretty nice deal, it just ain't my deal :P

Drive 'em all and make yer call...

Byron

tlong

I speak as a former owner of a 1998 A4 2.8, which I sold for a 2005 TL last November.

I bought the TL because my kids were getting too big for the A4's back seat. I also drove the G35.

The G35 interior was just too cheesy for me. The steering and power were great, but I found the G35 skittish on high speed corners where bumps existed.

The TL is second to none in features and has a very nice interior. It's power is great. I must say now that after 8000 miles on it, I still don't think its handling compares to my A4. It is pretty good compared to most cars, but I was spoiled by the A4. The TL is a little 'floaty' going around curves when bumps are present. I drive to work up a canyon road for a 2 mile stretch and it is a great spot where the handling differences come out.

I still really enjoy the TL and will keep it for many years, but when the kids are gone to college I'm going to get a bit better handling car.

Needless to say, cars like ES300 or SUVs, minivans are OUT for me from a handling perspective. I guess I'm now picky enough that I need near the cream of the crop!

frisconick

Thanks Bryon! That's just the feedback I need. I love my wifes's AT TL, but I need to drive the MT TL to really get the feel of the car. But I have this weird anti-BMW thing that I don't understand. I test drove a 330i and loved it. Anyone know how the Mercedes C-class is?

voteforpedro

Car is in good shape with 56,349 mi as of this morning. I realize this seems relatively cheap, however I am going through a divorce and dont want my wife to get it or any money from the sale. Please call me 813-655-1328 or stop by the shop at 612 sommerstone dr valrico fl if in the area.jo

pearl

Lots of posts on various boards about problems with this marque's auto transmission at least in the 02-04 model years. Have they finally fixed it, or is this still and issue for the 05 models?

byronwalter

You are most welcome, frisconick. The manual tran in the TL is very nice. You know, if you really have that 'anti-BMW thing' you might give the new Audi A4 with the two liter engine a drive. The A4 that I drove shifted great and the little two-liter engine hauls the hefty A4 around with authority. A nicely equipped A4 prices out slightly above the TL and well below the 330i. Since I'm not having much luck finding a left over '05 330i with the performance pack, I will probably end up in another A4.

But why, why, why can't Audi put a decent sport seat in the Audi? The TL & BMW seats are much sportier.

frisconick

Thanks Byron! If I like the manual TL, and I don't dectect torque steer or the torque steer is not a big deal, I will buy it on the spot, I love my wifes automatic TL. My next pick is the G35 coupe. Additionally, what I have read in CR, and my brother is a mechanic will verify, German cars are not as reliable as Japanese cars.

laurasdada

Thanks, Imac. You stated what i inferred. And it is the bottom line. Until you decide otherwise, the car you buy is the best car...for your needs, wants and desires.

Frisocnick, just because someone states a "fact" on the internet does not, in fact, make it a fact. And that's the fact, Jack!. Don't believe everything you read. Some wonderful posts all over the boards here, but you must do your own DD, drive all the cars that are on your list before you decide! You've got a TL, enjoy it for the fabulous car it is.

frisconick

Hi laurasdada,

We have exchanged posts before, and I really respect your common sense opions. However, I am a scientist and I know how CR tests cars and they follow the scientific method. Of course, it is often subjective judgements, but CR is the most objective of all because they are non-profit. C&D advertises which comprimises their credibility. It's not just an internet opinion, it's CR!

lmacmil

"C&D advertises which compromises their credibility."

I don't think that's necessarily the case. All the major car manufacturers advertise. When the car mags do a comparison test, something has to finish last, regardless of advertising dollars spent. I think if you looked back over the years, you'd find that the finish order changes and usually it's the newest model that finishes first, e.g., the new Infiniti M series is winning most of the comparisons lately.

Now if one manufacturer consistently won every comparison across all model lines, then I might believe the editorial opinions were influenced by advertising dollars.

Another thing that favors CR objectivity is that they buy the cars they test. I'm sure the manufacturer supplied cars that the car mags test are gone over with a fine tooth comb before being given to the magazines to evaluate. As long as they all do it, I guess the playing field is level.

frisconick

I would like to see ad dollars spent and rankings. I have also heard that some of "experts" at C&D getting free cars.

fedlawman

While you're at the Acura dealer, I recommend a test drive in a 6-speed TSX. It's almost as quick as an auto-trans TL, and it handles much sharper - with no torque steer (because it has no torque, ha ha).

rotoryfan

"Lots of posts on various boards about problems with this marque's auto transmission at least in the 02-04 model years."

"lots of posts" ??? What is alot? A little balance/perspective - I own a '03 TL/auto. I have never had a problem of any type with any part of the car (although Acura checked out my tranny at my last oil change per a TSB).

The last time I checked, approx. 1.6 % of the TL population had transmission problems - and Acura did not shy away from their responsibility to repair/replace.

The TL is a great car (still amazed at the thoughfulness that Acura put into the little design details/ergonomics*, engine is flawless, etc.). All car manufacturers will occasionally have technical glitches (I believe the tranny thing was due to a supplier issue) but as long as they step up to the plate and meet their responsibilities - they will have my support and future loyality (i.e. cash).

P.S. *a small compliant I can muster is that the sunglass holder (between the visors) seems to be missing in the 04/05 models - if I am remembering correctly from test drive about a year ago.

Cheers

frisconick

The TSX is not nearly as quick as the TL, and I know you are yanking my chain :P

frisconick

I put more credence in CR professional drivers than I do with posters here. However I agree with you that you have to do your own test-drives and then make a choice. You have another excellent post laurasdada, and enjoy your new TL :shades:

kdshapiro

wildcatjon, "BMW 3-series 2006+" #3078, 29 May 2005 12:21 am

armand

I own a '05 325XiT and an '04 TL both with AT. I love both cars but they are different. Nothing handles like a BMW and it is a comfortable reasonably well equipped (after paying for some options). The TL does everything well and is extremely well equipped for no extra $'s - and is thousands less than the 325. The audio system is extra special. It does have a little torque steer but only when pushed very hard - not in ordinary driving. I have had no problems of any kind with the TL but had several with the BMW with under 1000 miles. I had the air mass monitor fail, the radio has a lot of static and just yesterday the blue tooth telephone connection stopped working. I know I will like the all wheel drive on my BMW in the winter. If I had to pick one I would have a problem. If the TL had all wheel dive it would be a easy pick.

kasperghost

Driving Impressions:

All MT

TSX:
Drive: Light, flickable, rev happy- happiness is high RPM's, tight tranny/clutch
Interior: Nice, well appointed- typical Acura
Exterior: Conservative- Classic, average rims

TL:
Drive: Nice drive, quite engine, lots of power, tranny smooth, I am sure the torque steer is there, but I live in a world of 8/10ths

Interior: Options galore, I felt a little on the claustrophobic side, it's 5 cf bigger than 330...?!?!, Liked the blue Instrument cluster , but it added this weird fuzzy look to the instruments, Windows seemed narrow, high sills, no 40/60 fold down, Limited interior/exterior color choices.

Exterior: Profile is great, Front/rear seem a bit slab sided, while this doesn't distract, I wonder if at year 5, I'll like it just as much, average rims.

G35:
Drive: Power- can you say, "Slap me, Slap me again and call me Sally!"? Trans notchy, engine rough- not horrible mind you, but for an every day driver that I have to crank out a nice size check every month..., I like my engine noise, but not this much, gearing seemed short w/ a 6 speed and a 300 hp engine, Seemed to track very nice- had a point and shoot feel to it. Ride rougher than the 330 w/ sport pkg.

Interior: Much improved over last year- actually put real aluminum in there- what a concept. Seat controls- different...- wife loved them, nice shifter, open, good visibility, Instruments- blah- ugliest of the bunch, lots of options reasonably priced, cool back seat that reclines, no 40/60 fold down, Limited interior/exterior color choices. Can't put my finger on it, but interior seems 'off.' Wood package lame.

Exterior: Sexy beast, Cool 18 inch rims standard, back end good, but not great.

330:
Drive: Get out a fork and eat off of the flat torque curve- makes the engine have a more predictable feel, nice tranny- liked the stick shift- reminds me of the sticks they used to put in the Mustangs (1989), engine noise noticeable upon accel, but not at steady speed, new brake hold feature pretty slick (car holds brake on a hill until gas applied). Handling, well... it is a BMW. Steering wheel fatter, liked it when gripping in turns. Don't really know about rear wheel drive- I'm sure I'll like it- live in Denver too.

Interior: Clean, gauges easy to read, if you move the seat up a little, you can see a bit of the hood- I hate not seeing the hood, I feel like the front end doesn't exist, Sports seats are awesome, maybe I am just a Honda boy- but they need a clock up high for easy peaks, good visibility, vinyl as standard- cheap, start button worthless w/out comfort access. General comment: xenon lights and brake system outshine the other vehicles. ipod compatible-nice, line in for audio, a/c in console to keep favorite beverage cool for later, interior felt open but intimate, fit and finish- a cut above- I am a big fan of wood- warms the interior up, liked beverage holder placement- don't have to do the funky chicken to pull my drink from down low. Wide interior/exterior color choices. Why won't Acura do a blue/tan combo?

Exterior- classic, nice flowing lines, back end finally flows, muscular- but not over done, standard 16 inch wheels- lame- their option line up doesn't allow for 17's though. What happend to the sweet 17 inch rims they offered with the sport pkg from the e-46?

Kasperghost

lmacmil

"I have also heard that some of "experts" at C&D getting free cars."

Oh please! Do you really think these magazines would compromise their journalistic integrity by letting the road test editors get free cars? I think these stories get started when someone doesn't agree with their reviews and/or comparison test choices.

Let's face it, aside from the objective measurements, every review is an opinion. These guys have their own set of biases based on their experience just like we all do. The only difference is that they drive cars for a living so their opinions are formed with more driving experience than most of us have. They have days (or weeks) and many hundreds miles on which to base their opinions rather than the hour or less and probably less than 50 miles for our test drives.

lmacmil

Great review. Posts like this really give readers valuable information.

esf

Byron,

I haven't posted on this forum before, so I'm just sort of starting a new conversation. I think that you'd be happier in an A4, if you have one right now, than a new 3. I've seen two in person, driving, and they're not very impressive to look at. The 3 doesn't have as much presence as the old one, while the A4, from the back, looks like a little A8. After my '00 A6 2.7t's lease was up in April, I was taking delivery on a new convertible. I was pretty much completely sure of the S4 Cabriolet [which I have now, and am obsessed with], but I also checked out the M3 Convertible. It wasn't nearly as refined as the S4, and I am completely in love with my Sprint Blue S4 Cabriolet. I get so many admiring looks from people, the neighbors love it, and especially my family. Me, my wife, my son, and my daughter, [and also my son who can't drive yet, he's 12] fight over who gets the car next!

frisconick

Oh please! Do you really think these magazines would compromise their journalistic integrity by letting the road test editors get free cars?

Yes!!!

frisconick

Great post!!! I thought the TSX ride was much too rough for the price of the car. Especially considering the nice TL ride. I was very disappointed in the TSX.

laurasdada

Rotoryfan: The '05 TL has removable sun glass holder in each front door storage compartments, which are hinged. Nice.

Kasper: The Acura TL does come in Abyss Blue with the option of either Camel (tan-ish, but much brighter. Too much of a contrast for my taste) or Gray (which I chose).

kasperghost

Missed that one- thanks for the catch.

fedlawman

I thought the ride in the TL was much too soft for a sport sedan, especially considering the tight TSX ride. I was very disappointed in the TL.

frisconick

lol :P

ljwalters1

"I thought the ride in the TL was much too soft for a sport sedan"

Funny, I've heard a lot of complaints that the ride was too harsh - I guess to each their own. FYI - don't know which model you drove, but the manual has a tighter suspension than the automatic, unless the automatic is an A-spec version. A 6MT w/ the sport tires rides even tighter.

I don't think the TL is intended to be a true sports sedan, like BMW or Infiniti G35. I think it intends to be a very sporty car that's 1 notch above entry-level luxury, and I think it does that very well.

frisconick

Very well put ljwalters1. However, the TL is a seriously quick car for a non-sports car. I test drove a 330i, 330Ci and the G35 coupe, and I am leaning towards the G35, just because it's not a BMW, tuff choice I admitt. I really loved the 330Ci I admitt.