Honda Odyssey vs. Toyota Sienna

ljwalters1

I believe the direct link is link title

Secondly, I believe your statement If you don't skip this vehicle for that reason, you aren't human is a bit strong. If it was so serious, why was it still awarded 5 stars?

isellhondas

If the driver had her seatbelt on, there would be no problem!

jipster

Sure there would be a problem. If you were in the middle of an intersection,having just been in an accident, would you want to be sitting there with your car door open? Or, if the vehicle that rams you spins you around into the path of an oncoming car... it could be a BIG problem. Let's not minimize saftey issues just to score points for the brand we prefer...or sell.

dilbertzzz

No one designs vehicles for secondary impacts. Of course, we would like the vehicle to survive as intact as possible as long as it does so by leaving the occupants in that same desirable state. However, a crush zone once crushed will not help when the next vehicle slams into the wreckage.

Here in North Texas (and I suspect most everywhere else), a major cause of physical injury in automobile accidents is the inattentive (or frequently, drunk!) driver who slams into the up-until-then accident survivors and good samaritans trying to aid them after the initial dust has settled.

By far, the best thing to do is to avoid the accident in any way possible. The point here is that, if the people in the vehicle were wearing there seat belts, the vehicle still would have protected them.

Having said all that, I will acknowledge that the laws, highway safety improvements, and vehicle safety improvements to protect even those numbskulls who refuse to reasonably protect themselves account for the fact that the annual highway death toll in the U.S. is almost exactly what it was in the 1960's (about 44,000 per year). That despite the fact that the number of vehicles on the roadways and, even more so, the number of highway miles driven have increased by at least one order of magnitude.

I also agree with those who asserted that Honda has undoubtedly already been trying to identify and rectify this potential problem if there is any reasonable way to do so.

user777

viewing the footage, it's interesting to see the side airbag and side curtain airbags deploy but also, it appears the door and pilar did it's thing and the test vehicle did not intrude much, but i wish we could see the video from the hood-mounted camera. as for the door becoming unlatched, in this type of impact, it seems to me your most likely to make contact with the side airbag first, then be thrown towards the passenger seat as momentum is transferred to the vehicle. hopefully the belt will keep you in the seat, even if the vehicle should roll over. not defending this particular vehicle - i'd be surprised if in a number of side impact crashes, vehicle doors across models don't become unlatched.

isellhondas

Think what you want. In a serious wreck I would much rather be in an Odyssey than a MPV. Wouldn't you?

jipster

Nope...I chose the 5 star saftey rated MPV over what I thought to be a less desireable/inferior in many ways Ody. The MPV's doors stay shut during side impact test crashes. In a serious wreck I would want the doors to stay closed. Again...wouldn't you?

Nothing against the Ody...which is a very good and safe van. You just can't have doors flying open in a collision is all.

user777

the side curtains would have saved the child in the 2nd row from serious head injury from what i can see in the short video segment. wish my '03 had side curtains that is for certain. what other vans do (as standard equipment)?

question: if they ran another side impact crash test against another '05 ODY and the door didn't open, what would you conclude?

jipster

"....what would you conclude?"

You guys don't want to answer my questions...but I'll go ahead and answer yours.
I would conclude that sometimes the Ody doors open during a side impact collision and sometimes they don't. If I was Honda the first thing I would do is crash test about 5-10 more Odys. Since they probably did that and we have not heard the results... I would conclude that there is a problem with the doors coming open in a crash and they are working on it.

05ody

But if it was that much of a safety hazzard...why would the Odyssey still get 5 stars for driver side crash test? I think the Odyssey still did it's job by keeping the driver safe.

user777

i see your point. i think honda already crashed a number of their vehicles at their own facilities (they've been making odysseys for a number of years now, and the door and pillars probably haven't changed too much).

i also suspect it still earned the 5-star rating because the testers examined the video, accelerometer data, points of contact with dummy body parts and structure, looked at the integrity of the doors and pillars, etc and concluded the interior space wasn't compromised, the dummy body parts made contact with the curtains and stayed where they were supposed to, etc.

i didn't know i was supposed to answer your question. i think this test result, in the context of everything else that did or didn't happen wouldn't sway me from purchasing an '05. quite the contrary - as i did mention, the side airbags and curtains would encourage me to purchase one.

also - in addition to the side airbags in the front, and the side curtains for the passengers in row 2 and 3, the standard '05 has the 4-wheel disc brakes with ABS, traction control and vehicle stability control (all standard equipment). in addition to being massive and having a wide wheel base, my '03 has very excellent handling characteristics and very excellent power on demand which i'm sure is true of the '05.

personally, i would feel safer in this vehicle with my entire family than any other mini-van - but that is just me and i'm an ody owner, so its likely i'm inclinded to believe this anyway...that is why i purchased an '03 to begin with. in my opinion, the '05 vehicle is safer than the '03 so there you have my response.

that said, some things i definitely appreciated about the MPV which i consider safety related (and i drove several before my purchase), i liked the turning radius and dimensions of the vehicle, the road feel and steering response, driver position, and very good visability.

jipster

I don't think it is a great saftey hazzard...but a hazzard none the less. One that should be easy to correct.

A controlled labratory test of ramming something hard into the side of an Ody is quite different than what a real world experience might be.Where there are many many variables outside of what is offered in the labratory test (just 2 variables...the minivan and a ramming pole)

jipster

Sorry user777...I guess my question was directed more towards isellhondas.
Agree with your points...would not let the door issue stop me from buying an Ody if I really wanted one. I do think all the standard saftey features on the 05 Ody was a smart move. The Ody is a very nice and extremely safe van...just make it a wee bit safer by fixing that door.

ljwalters1

question: if they ran another side impact crash test against another '05 ODY and the door didn't open, what would you conclude?

[answer:]I would conclude that sometimes the Ody doors open during a side impact collision and sometimes they don't.

Well said!!! LOL

jdubs

Anther important note about the side-impact test....

"The side crash test represents an intersection-type collision with a 3,015 pound barrier moving at 38.5 mph into a standing vehicle."

This is a pretty slow speed and a light vehicle (after all, doesn't the Odyssey weight about 4500 pounds?). More importantly, it's not being struck by an SUV (a test now being conducted by NHTSA on other cars). I'm curious to see the results of that test when it is done (I would guess it will be done in the next 3 months).

My conclusion - side-BODY airbags should be in this vehicle in row 2 and 3 (SHAME ON HONDA - Mercedes has them). Also, the safety cage is not strong enough (as evidenced by the fact that the structure/cage didn't perform well in previous Odyssey models and especially given the weight and speed above in the side-impact test).

I realize I'm digging in quite a bit on details, but everything I'm bringing up will be standard in cars in the next couple years. These tests will force it to happen.

mcase2

This is getting off track. This is the Ody v. Sienna site. Lets not use the MPV as a straw man. The fact is the ODY got slapped with a safety concern with an entire page linked to it. The Sienna did NOT. Thats the point. The question is would you rather be in a Sienna or a Ody in a major wreck.

library1

Ody. Note that the dummies were not ejected. A possibility that didn't happen is an improbible possibility. While the video is interesting and dramatic, I found the numbers more informative. The HICs of the Ody vs. the Sienna especially.

I took all the data for the Odyssey, Passat (my car) and leading cars with SAB, Avalon, Accord, etc.- put them into Excell and graphed the result. Try it. Nothing beats a minivan for safety. The Odyssey has the best test scores.

Also see the Insurance Inststute for Highway Safety website for a PDF on medical costs for injuries in real-world crashes. The previous generation Ody was outstanding. I like the Sienna more for its style, and fear the Honda "road noise" problem... but safety? Odyssey.

justlooking1

Ok, so I don't like the fact that the door may (remember it is a 'may' not a will) open during a crash, but you are forgetting on major part here. And that is the handling of the Ody over the Sienna. I think the improved handling will make it easier for me to try and avoid the accident in the first place. That needs to count for something. So sure, my risk might be slightly higher that the door will open, but adding in the handling, the airbags and the seatbelts, I feel safer in the Ody

macakava

Like me, you are in that end of the driving spectrum that enjoy a good handling "sporty" vehicle, with spirited driving tossed into it.

edklein

I keep reading about how the Honda is the "sportier" minivan and the argument is offered here that you'll be more able to avoid an accident as a result. While I've read much that the Odyssey feels sportier, can someone point to some hard numbers - g's on the skid pad, time through slalom, etc, to show a difference? I've seen marine2 post the observation from some magazine a number of times suggesting that the sportiness of the Odyssey is largely an illusion when pressed.

toyotaken

The differences on paper are pretty much negligable, however, there is a different "feel" driving the two vehicles. Just seat-of-the-pants feel more than anything else that most people are speaking of.

Ken

ljwalters1

I know what you mean - I wish my Sienna had the spoiler on the back so that when I'm trying to dust the cops out ont he highway, my rear end wouldn't lift so much!!!

macakava

All you have to do is drive them side by side and you would see the difference in handling. The C & D guys drive the tested vehicles in an energetic, spirited manner - so they can give an accurate handling opinion.

In the June 2004 C & D minivan comparo using the 2004 Ody, the g-numbers are:

0.71/0.73/0.76/0/76/0.75 for DGC/Freestar/Ody/Quest/Sienna, which supports the better handling of the Japanese models. The higher the number, the better. The 2005 Ody should be at least as good as the 2004.

macakava

Anyone who tries to outrun the cops is a fool!
You will be outnumbered by the number of cop cars and the helicopter above. We are entertained often by such real live scenes on TV on CA highways.

The strategy is to get "heroes or rabbits" who are prepared to be your bait for the cops ahead while speeding.

isellhondas

I saw a video and the doors didn't "fly" open. They did open a bit, however and I would thinkthis wouldn't be a problem if the driver was belted in.

Still, it's something they should and probably have already fixed.

And, yeah...I'll still take the Odyssey over a MPV in a serious crash.

lastwraith

Looking at that site, which is not exactly chock full of info and comparing the safety data for the Sienna and Ody I see that the Ody basically bests the Sienna with every spec. Unless I'm missing something here, the limited chance of the door opening is the only single item at all that is in favor of the Sienna. Run down the safety list for the Ody vs Sienna and the Ody beats it. Run down the numbers for Front Crash, Side Crash, and Rollover data and the Sienna gets things handed to it by the Ody.

As far as I'm concerned I'll take my chances with a vehicle that at the very least feels more nimble, has more standard safety features, puts less stress on my body in a crash according to this site's listed data, and gets a 5 star rating vs a 4 star rating (Sienna) where it counts - driver side frontal impact.

Could my door somehow manage to pop-open even when locked in a crash? And then might I somehow be ejected even though I am wearing a three point seat-belt (available in any seat)? Perhaps.....but I seriously doubt it. There is worrying about safety and then there is obsessing over it. If this one test result bothers you, then don't buy the car because you will have it in the back of your mind forever. But plenty of freaky things have happened in individual tests that never ever happen again.

hansienna

Yes, it should...but the crash test results indicate it is NOT as good in crash tests.
Has the Odyssey automatic transmission that has been plaqued with problems been changed? :sick:

ewt

If you're really concerned with emergency handling, the skill of the driver is a MUCH bigger factor than minor differences in skidpad or slalom performance. The average driver doesn't get their vehicle anywhere near it's limits in an emergency situation, so minor differences in capability aren't going to matter. You're not safer in the vehicle that pulls an additional .02Gs on the skidpad. Get yourself to autocrosses and/or track events if you want to learn what a car does near its limits and how to drive it to those limits. Additionally, a good set of tires on either van would make a signficant difference in handling capability (much more than any inherent difference between the two).

FWIW, the Honda feels "sportier" than the Sienna with less power assist on the steering and firmer ride, but I can't imagine a real car enthusiast would find much to be excited about in either from a handling perspective. Big 4400 lbs.+ boxes just don't handle better than "inoffensive", which is better than SUVs of comparable size can say at least.

mcase2

The 2004 Sienna got a 5 star front end driver crash rating. Its the exact same frame etc. as the 2005 which did indeed get 4 star from the same testers. go figure?

user777

the testers drive hondas.

but seriously, you got this semantic differential scale of 0->5stars. ultimately their tests come down to some form of weighting / mapping, biased no doubt from subtle objective vs. subjective criteria.

stated another way, perhaps (?) no two crashes are completely identical, so the same model vehicle crashed twice *might* (i'm not sure the extent) receive slightly different scores along those objective and subjective criteria... which when mapped to the 0->5star scale differ from test to test.

they are crash testing vehicles using video and accelerometer data of people positioned dummies and aligned subject car and test apparatus, not statistically sampling large N bolts (for example) in some destructive tensile testing machine.

macakava

It is now history as the DGC tranny problem was earlier.

macakava

In every vehicle category, there is a winner/leader.
In minivans, the winner is obvious(Ody) from the numerous accollades/awards from different independent organizations.

hansienna

Nor is the Sienna in the sales category. The Caravan has been the best selling minivan since its introduction over 20 years ago.

lastwraith

I'm not saying it makes any sense, just that from the data on the page I'd still be choosing an Ody.

As for the DGX minivans being the sales leader, this has been gone over in other boards before and there are some simple reasons for that. Minivans are THE bread and butter of Dodge's business as far as automobiles. Much more of their production is geared towards minivans than that of Honda or Toyota. I don't see Dodge effectively competing in the 4 door passenger sedan market. Meanwhile, Accord and Camry are right at the top. Honda and Toyota are busy with things besides minivans. D/C MUST have the minivan market. Besides that, D/C does big business with fleet and government sales of their minivans...I'm sure that also helps their numbers.

96corolla

See this link:

http://www.autospies.com/article/index.asp?articleId=3782&categoryId=9

Also, keep in mind that when Ody does win it is by a very slim margin and usually because of the "sporty" ride. Reality is, many minivan drivers who do a true side by side comparison will likely pick the Sienna for its smooth, luxurious ride. Many folks who buy the Ody do it based off all the press they read. Car mags pick Ody usually by a slim margin because they are car guys who wouldn't be cought dead in a minivan and care most about the ride. As I've said before, lets let Mom's do the tests and I'm guessing the results will be different.

I'm only saying this from personal experience. I read all the press and was convinced Ody was the superior van. However, I wanted to be logical so I drove both on the same day right after each other. At the end of the day I was asking myself how the Ody gets all/most of the accolades...I'm actually still asking that question but I do think it is primarily because of car guys doing the tests.

Ody is a great van, not bad mouthing it. Besides the Sienna, nothing else comes close. Just my 2 cents.

ctsang

sienna has AWD, ody doesn't

mcase2

True, and they still are because their cheap

mcase2

Do you let the movie reviewers decide your film choices too?

mcase2

Is the Chrysler transmission problem history?? Could you give us stats to back this up please.

kjo

My wife and I recently purchased a new minivan. We were dead set on an Ody, went to the dealer and found no deals and very little inventory to choose from. On the way home we decided to stop at the Toyota dealer near us since we had not yet drove a Sienna. After the test drive, we were sold, we both liked the Sienna better than the Ody in just about every department. We got a great deal on an LE with option package #8 which included DVD and JBL sound system, it rocks! They gave us 9k for our 2000 Ody EX that had 90k on it and needed brakes, tires, timing belt and transmission, (yes, it was slipping). Got the LE for 28350. I don't think you can go wrong with either van, for us, the Sienna was the right choice.

hansienna

Excellent example of the effect of the dealership.
Luckily, I have found an excellent salesman at a Toyota, a Honda, and a Dodge dealership and all 3 dealerships have a good inventory.

twins2

Wow. Lots of good input. My wife is on bedrest and hasn't been able to make it out to compare the two side by side. I had spoken to friends with the Ody who were happy with it in the snow and I had pretty much decided on the Ody if the wife agrees. But the safety issues people have raised are making me reconsider the Sienna. They both are excellent safe cars. Unless I'm convinced that the Sienna has superior safety or the wife goes for the Sienna, its the Ody Ex in Sage Green pearl, leather trim with NAV/RES. I will let you all know and thanks for the advice. Any pricing experience to share (i know there's a separate chatroom for that...)

Claires

Any pricing experience to share (i know there's a separate chatroom for that...)

Yes, there is -- you can find out about the pricing experiences of both Odyssey and Sienna shoppers here:
Prices Paid & Buying Experience

user777

confused. where do you think the sienna tops the odyssey in the safety department?

remember 4 wheel disc brakes, ABS, traction control, vehicle stability control, side airbags, and 2nd/3rd row side curtain airbags come standard on the even the low-end trim odyssey.

the only big safety features i'm aware in the toyota that aren't offered on the odyssey is AWD (and maybe the Daytime Running Lights (DRLs)).

configure the toyota with the comparable features available in the lowest-end trim of the odyssey and compare price.

isellhondas

That's correct.

It has to be remembered that in many parts of this country, driving an "import" isn't a good thing to do. Chrysler invented the minivan and they continue to have a good run with them.

Also, they sell TONS of these to fleets and to rental companies where Honda doesn't do this. this is part of the reason they have poor resale. After a couple of years, the rental companies dump them en mass at distressed prices.

A two year old Chrysler minivan can be a great value because of this. Same applies to Taurus and other cars the rental companies favor.

96corolla

This example proves it all...."we were dead set on and Ody"....without even driving the Sienna. When you drove the Sienna...basically out of dumb luck...there was no comparison. PEOPLE - DRIVE BOTH. Compare them head to head. Don't blindly buy the Ody because of the press. For some of you, the Ody will still win, and that is fine and valid. However, this is a huge purchase, don't deny yourself a van that is possibly better for you because of the press. Great post, and I think very symbolic of why many people end up with the Ody. Of course they think its great because they never even tried the Sienna so they have no comparison.

rorr

I'll agree that everyone needs to drive both (extensively if possible) before making a decision. My wife and I found that while we liked the smoothness/quietness of the Sienna better, the Ody seemed (to us anyway) more responsive. And equipped the way WE wanted, we found the dealers more willing to deal on the Ody EX-L than the Sienna XLE w/ pkg.6.

If the two vehicles would have been roughly the same price, we probably would have ended up with the Sienna. As it turned out, given the dealers we worked with, the Ody ended up around $4k less. We've been very happy with our purchase since and haven't second guessed ourselves once.

05ody

Same thing with us. We knew how the Sienna drove obviously if my aunt has one, but that day we ended up going to the Honda dealer first. And I think both me and my wife knew if we would of went into the Toyota dealer first, we would of had a Sienna. But also we got a fairly good deal on the Ody EX Slate Grey Pearl. Maybe its because it was the only Odyssey there I dont know but it could somehow result in us buying 2 other Honda's there. So we walked out with that and had to go back the next day to pick our brand new van up (had to put undercoat, mud flaps, and bug deflector on). Very happy still and my aunt came to visit about a week ago so I got to drive the Sienna quite a bit and am still very very very happy with my purchase and so is my wife. I find there to be no lower back support on the Sienna. I dont know maybe it is just me. We also have never second guessed our self once.

macakava

No. I drive them also.

As I have said many times before, I have driven almost 70 minivans in the past 2 years, mostly DGCs and a few loaded T & C tossed in, as well as a couple each from Ford(Freestar) and GM(Uplander). So I have had the vast exposure and can see the big differences. I also also a Windstar previously as well.

Hence my choice for the Ody.

Resources such as C & D and CR are good reference for me to verify and help select my final choice.

Have anyone ever driven a Chevy Astro lately? Boy I got a 2005 rental as a substitute at Enterprise in TX this week. I had requested a Quest but it was not there when I cheked in. That Astro vehicle reminded me of the what/how vehicles were back in the 1960s - sloppy handling, no steering/road feel, rough ride, outdated interior styling, etc.... Good thing I did not have far to go!

macakava

You cannot go wrong with either the Ody or Sienna.

But depending on where on the driving spectrum you are, you would choose one over the other vehicle assuming the price was similar/close.