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Hyundai Sonata vs. Honda Accord vs. Toyota Camry vs. Ford Fusion
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Too bad the domestics can't keep up, but hey, my Accord was built in Ohio!
But - to all here - let's not take any of this personally. We all can and should make our choices to suit our individual priorities. No need to make any more of it than that. Let's just keep our conversation focused on what we like about the choices we've made.
And feel free to throw in a "I wish they had thought of ..." every now and then!! Who knows better what could/should have been but those who have accumulated some major seat time?
:shades:
If that were true than there would be no Hyundai dealers in either states.
My wife's '03 Accord (LX V6), which is not babied by any stretch -- it has a number of dings, and I drive it on longer trips and am not easy on the accellerator at all -- still feels like we got it two months ago, even though we purchased in November '02.
Granted, the Fusion and Sonata have not had near the time to be judged on that basis, but, FWIW.
HUH?.. HSD,Scion and Lexus owners scratch their heads and say "What did he just write?'
Allow me to let you in on a little in-house secret. The American public doesnt like radical. It searches out vanilla. Trust me on this. It's one reason that the Camry has been so incredibly popular year after year with vanilla. Toyota's marketing dept knows the US market better than any of us imagine and it hits this sweetspot nearly all the time. All it does is position its vehicles where they will make the most money and allows the Mazda's and smaller mfgrs the outer edges of a market for the specialty vehicles.
kdhspyder
Dealer Invoice, $22,161 (including $600 advertising) - holdback, $687 - finance and customer cash rebates, $1,500 = $19,974 sale price. The dealer will give me Kelley Blue Book trade-in of $18,100. So this comes out to be a balance of $1,874 plus TTL. Their doc fee is $299 (a bit high but I think this is a fair deal). The reason why I'm thinking about trading the Honda is the Hyundai warranty, additional safety features such as electronic stability control, 5-star crash test rating for both front and side (the Accord only received 4 stars on the side crash rating) leather, etc. I think the Honda drives a tad better, but I wanted to get anyone's opinion on this deal. THANKS VERY MUCH!!
I think DCX would argue with you on that. What about the Ford Five Hundred? It's been the brunt of many negative reviews all focused on it's styling. It's a great car they all say, but it's no looker. According to your theory it should be selling like hotcakes right? :P
Did you see the pics of the next gen Camry? It looks like a collage of some of the most popular cars on the road today. Since Toyota announced that they are going to focus on styling more in the future, obviously they're worried about something. Don't you think?
HSD,Scion and Lexus owners scratch their heads and say "What did he just write?
Ahh Lexus. Now there' s some imagination! As heard in the hallowed halls of Toyota corporate: "Hey, let's take a Camry, add some nice leather, wood, and a navigation system and sell them to all of our lemmings who got raises last year." "
Better yet, let's do the same thing with our SUVs!"
Truth is, all of the manufacturers now, foreign or domestic, are following Toyota's lead. The days of imagination, regarding individual vehicles, are gone and everything you buy now will be based off of one or two platforms. Let's hope it works for the rest of them as it did for Toyota.
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
Just my 2 cents. If I were looking to buy a car today, the Sonata would be it.
I totally agree with you on this one. Toyota makes some of the most boring cars on the road today. I am in the market for a midsize sedan and the Toyota is not even on my list. I want reliability but you know what? Most cars today are pretty reliable if you take good care of them. I have had a 99 Ford Contour Se for the past four years and I can say I have never had any issues whatsoever, not even a flat. Most people buy Toyota just like most people Sony or Intel. If folks make there purchase base on the way the feel about a particular car, instead of relying on family or friends telling them the Toyota holds it value more so you should get it. I think most folks are program to follow the masses. I'll get me a Fusion SEL, since I can't afford a Range
You wanted opinions. Here's mine.
DON'T DO IT.
Let me assure you the reason Hyundai's giving out a longer warranty isn't because of the goodness of their hearts. That's the only way they can get people to buy them. The Accord's warranty is more than sufficient for a car of its caliber.
Don't be too influenced by what's said in this board. In the real world, Accords reign supreme and Hyundais are significantly behind.
Let me also assure you of one more thing. Say you bought the Sonata and the next day try to sell your 06 Sonata and the 05 Accord. The Accord will fetch more money and will sell quicker, guaranteed. So the day after you do the switch, you'll have an asset that's worth less, and you would have spent about $2000 extra in acquiring it.
Post this info in the Real-world trade in values board, and the experts will probably give you many more reasons than I have.
Here's another opinion on the Hyundai/Kia warranty... by someone who doesn't own a Sonata, or Accord or Camry or Fusion for that matter:
Too bad we don't give half-stars in these reviews. Because I might be tempted to give Kia four and a half stars for the Rio5. They have now polished their reputation so much in the United States that they almost don't need to keep giving buyers extras like a 10-year, 100,000-mile powertrain warranty and free 24-hour roadside assistance. But they still do. . Intangibles like that are all part of the total value equation, and the Koreans do that almost better than anybody.
http://www.detnews.com/2005/autosconsumer/0510/19/F03-353600.htm
BTW... if the Accord's warranty was more than sufficient, why did Honda increase its powertrain warranty to 5/60 for 2006? Maybe to bolster public confidence inthe car due to the rash of powertrain issues on Accords over the past few years? I assume it's not out of the goodness of their hearts.
Rather than always focusing on auction values of cars, why not cosider the driving experience? If someone wants to spend about $2000 to get a car with more luxury (leather etc.) and safety, and likes having a longer warranty to boot, why is that such an issue? It's not like cars are appreciating assets. Any car will lose lots of money the moment you drive it off the lot. Look how much value the '05 Accord lost in just one year or less!
That's the only way they can get people to buy them
Not true. I currently own 2 Hyundais, a 04 Sonata and an 05 Tucson. My sister, in another state, has owned 2 late 90's Accents (she gave one to my son, which he decided to wreck--long story) and now owns a 05 Tucson after riding in mine. All have been trouble free, comfortable, and reliable, with the Sonata the only one needing any warranty work (a small leak in the power steering rack, which the dealer replaced immediately with no fuss or hassles). And before anyone calls me a Hyundai shill, I have owned Fords, Volkswagens, Chryslers, Mercurys, a Dodge, and a Chevrolet truck, so I have experienced a number of vehicles in my nearly 35 years of driving and also worked in the auto repair business in the late 70s and early 80s. I like to think I know a little bit about cars.
The Accord's warranty is more than sufficient for a car of its caliber
If it is so bullet-proof and reliable, why doesn't Honda increase its basic warranty to match Hyundai. If it is as rock-solid as you and others have stated or implied, the cost of doing so would be minimal and would remove the warranty as a marketing chip/tool for Hyundai. Probably won't happen, though. Just think of all those repairs that owners now pay for that would now be covered under warranty. Too expensive for Honda to stomach.
Hotch41, let's be honest. It all comes down to personal taste and preference. If you like the Sonata enough and the deal makes semi-sense, then consider it. The days of Hyundai playing catch-up/second fiddle are gone. I can't honestly say that they are ahead, but they don't need to apologize to anyone for their product today.
As an aside, here in my home in south central PA, the local Hyundai dealer is larger and is equal to or outselling the local Honda dealer that has been here as long as I can remember. I have a few friends at both.(Friends? I have friends? :confuse: )
Auction prices are the best indicator of what the market thinks about the cars. That's why it's the best indicator out there for how good or bad a car is.
If someone wants a Hyundai because of the driving experience I have no issue with that. But based on a few magazine reviews and your own experience with good Hyundai cars, if you think Hyundais are on par with Hondas, you are sadly mistaken.
You say the 06 Sonata is a much better car than the 05 Accord. As of this moment, the majority of car buying public don't agree with you, and the only way we'll know for sure is to look at both the cars in about 5 years time to see which one holds up better.
Hondas have a long history of making cars that stand the test of time. Hyundais dont. Past success is the best barometer for future success.It takes several years of producing good cars to earn a reputation in the industry, and for good reasons.
Please don't put words in my mouth. I never said that. In fact, I recently said (on this discussion I think) that the Sonata is my personal top choice in this class right now, with the Accord a close second.
I do know, however, that had I done what you and other Hyundai-haters advise, that is, wait a few years (how many? 5, 10, 20??) for Hyundai to develop a long-term track record before buying one, I would have missed out on two very positive ownership experiences over the past five years. And as we know, buying a Honda is no guarantee of a trouble-free ownership experience.
Amen bro.
Just think of all those repairs that owners now pay for that would now be covered under warranty.
Huh? My 02 Accord has never had anything wrong with it. And we just traded in my wife's 00 Camry on a 05 Odyssey. In a little over 5 years, and 85000 miles, it never had anything go wrong with it.
There's my testimony and real life experience with the CamCords. You can't go wrong. The Sonata is still a mystery. Why take a chance?
How about, for example:
* More room (interior and trunk space) than an Accord
* Smoother ride than an Accord
* Quieter than an Accord
* More safety features than most Accords (except top-line Accords)
* Better looking than an Accord (subjective)
* Lower price than an Accord
* Longer warranty than an Accord
There's my testimony and real life experience with the CamCords. You can't go wrong. The Sonata is still a mystery. Why take a chance?
People usually don't parade all over the internet about how reliable and trouble-free their Accords and Camry's are. They expect it. They take it for granted. But the few that do have trouble, do come out and say it, simply because it's out of the ordinary and unexpected.
With Hyundai/Kia's, it's the opposite.
Enough said.
This is an utterly ridiculous thing to say. Many things can go wrong with any car. Honda and Toyota cars are far from having zero defects.
What I find very frustrating about your repeated postings on this board is that, as I read them, your posts paint Honda/Toyota as perfect and Hyundai/Kia as trash. I think Honda and Toyota make very good cars. I respect them very much, and I like many of the models offered between the two, but I also think Hyundai (such as the Sonata) provides a very good alternative that every astute car buyer should consider.
If Accord and Camry really are perfectly bullet-proof, Honda and Toyota would definitely offer 10 year warranties matching Hyundai. The fact of the matter is that their reputation is enough for them right now and they don't need. Extending their warranties would only lose them money because they would be paying for repairs during those later years.
Now please consider this about Hyundai. They provide a much longer warranty and road-side assistance for 5 years . . . if their cars really are not very good, then they surely would be on the quick path to bankruptcy . . . right? My opinion is that Hyundai is looking to grow and actually make money. Since I believe that, I assume that Hyundai really thinks it is making significantly better quality cars which will not cause them terrible in-warranty repair costs in the future. Since they really believe they're making higher quality cars, and they are motived to not go bankrupt, I extrapolate that the quality of their cars really is improving.
Believe what you will, but for reasons such as above, I don't really think there's too much mystery about the Hyundai Sonata . . . it's a solid alternative to the other cars in this thread.
So are you saying, people don't complain about Hyundais because they expect them to fail? That is not my experience in monitoring these discussions for the past five years. I've seen that Hyundai owners can be just as picky about their cars as Honda or Toyota owners.
Here's a fact to consider: in the Honda Accord Problems & Solutions discussion here, there are about 12,500 posts since June 2000. There are nearly 700 posts in the comparable Sonata discussion since August 2001. Of course, many more Accords are sold each year than Sonatas. But if Sonatas are much less reliable than Accords, that would even out the numbers somewhat. Yet we see many times more posts on problems than for the Sonata. I don't think you can justify that huge difference by saying that Sonata owners don't want to talk about problems on their cars. But if you have some third-party evidence for that theory, I'd love to see it.
Shoot, Toyota's marketing department even knows US tastes better than GM and Ford's marketing mavens with all their skewed consumer surveys imagine!
I think we can come up with more reliable measures about a car model's troubles than counting the messages in some threads.
You want some facts. Please refer to post 192 in this thread. I don't want to repeat myself.
The Warranties and Roadside Assistance are very large comforters for sure.
This is a fact though, for the time being the Used car buyer doesn't consider the preowned Hyundai's to be at the same level as a Certified Toyota or Certified Honda. Thus for a while the resale values of the newer ( and better? ) Hyundai's will suffer under this older perception. It might be 5 yrs or more for this to wash away but it is still there for now.
kdhspyder
When it comes down to it, each individual buyer has a different set of preferences, and plan for the car. Some buyers plan to trade every 2 years, and some every 15 years. Some buyers care more about the stereo system than the engine under the hood. My mother-in-law cares more about how her butt feels in the seat than anything else about the car. You could probably realistically argue that any of these sedans are better than the other given the appropriate variables. Not to mention regional differences - I won't buy a vehicle that can't be serviced at a dealer within 10 miles from my house. If a brand's closest dealer is farther than that from me, I won't even consider one of their cars.
Let's face it, if any of these vehicles were "the perfect sedan for everyone", then only one of these would even be manufactured, and EVERY household in the country would drive the same sedan.
As for reliable measures of a car's troubles, I can think of better ways than to look at a few auctions--e.g. statistical surveys involving almost 1 million owners. But I have an idea: why don't you or Terry call the automobile editor of your favorite, respected publication, maybe the Washington Post or New York Times, and offer to blow the roof off the "misconception" that the reliability of Hyundais is steadily improving, and in fact it's just the opposite, based on these auctions. You should be able to get a reporter out in a few seconds. Or maybe this is a story Edmunds.com would be interested in reporting on. All it takes is one phone call or email.
Good idea - maybe the New York Times could help him locate that reporter they fired for fabricating his stories... The auctions are a very good indicator of a car's worth (spelled:
d-e-s-i-r-a-b-i-l-i-t-y). After all, the dealers make or break based on that factor alone - they don't set the standards; they merely utilize them where the rubber meets the road.
Did that really have to be said?
Of course every car line has its number of problems. Honda and Toyota are at the top of the charts (good) when numbers of problems come in to play, though. Hyundai is moving on up, and have already surpassed the lackluster domestic brands. To restate what I believe leadfoot6 meant, was that the safest bet was with one of the CamCords, meaning that they have the fewest number of problems relative to other car companies, not that they don't have problems at all.
Hyundai is definitely moving up in the world, and the long warrantt certainly helps improve the perception of reliability from a consumer standpoint.
Ok, I'll explain again. MBB/NW auctions are for cars bought back under lemon law. If a car model has a lot more lemons as compared to another model which sells maybe 10 times more, what's your conclusion.
As for reliable measures of a car's troubles, I can think of better ways than to look at a few auctions--e.g. statistical surveys involving almost 1 million owners.
There are problems with that. The statistical sample is skewed. Surveys are typically done with subscribers - not a valid statistical sample.
Auction numbers (not MBB/NW auctions ) are the best judge of how a car is doing in the marketplace, even more so than new car prices.
But I have an idea: why don't you or Terry call the automobile editor of your favorite, respected publication, maybe the Washington Post or New York Times, and offer to blow the roof off the "misconception" that the reliability of Hyundais is steadily improving, and in fact it's just the opposite, based on these auctions.
I'd be very surprised if anybody would be interested. You see, not everybody believe what they read in print, and when they spot false statements, it may not really rile them up. They just see it for what it is and move on.
BTW, nobody ever disputed that Hyundai's quality is improving. Based on their earlier offerings, it would be pretty hard NOT to improve.
If we want to compete with anecdotal evidence, then fine . . . I'm yet another happy Hyundai owner who has experienced zero major defects in my car so far. The point I champion is that the Hyundai vehicles, such as the Sonata, are fairly close to quality of what you can get in an Accord or a Camry. I don't think there's a mystery to this.
Here's my conclusion (not scientific, but then neither was your conclusion about Hyundai owners being less likely to report a problem than a Honda or Toyota owner): Most buyers of Hyundais know about its sordid past record for reliability. So they are super-sensitive to any problems the car may have. Hence they are quicker to start a lemon-law action than owners of Hondas and Toyotas, for the same kinds of problems. ("Aha, this problem just proves that Hyundais are junk, I'm going to ditch it before something else breaks!") Thus you get Hyundais at the lemon-law auctions in numbers disproportionate to Hondas and Toyotas, and disproportionate to other evidence that shows the reliability of late-model Hyundais is not far off that of Honda and Toyota.
If surveys are skewed, it is very possible what you see at auctions is skewed also.
Under that one constraint and also remembering that this is data from model years 2000 through 2002, let's consider the odds of having a defect in a first and third year of a hypothetical Honda, Toyota, and Hyundai.
Toyota:
1st year: 22%
3rd year: 16%
Honda:
1st year: 21%
3rd year: 20%
Hyundai:
1st year: 38%
3rd year: 25%
(those are the best estimates I can make based on the resolution of the graphic)
So Hyundai isn't the same, but by the third year their numbers are getting what I consider to be pretty close. And again, this is for model years 2000-2002, so if one believes Hyundai are still improving faster than the industry is improving these numbers might be even tighter for a new car purchased today.
In the first year there's a 22% (78%), 21% (79%), and 38% (62%) odds of having a problem (no problem). In the third year, a 16% (84%), 20% (80%), and 25% (75%) odds of having a problem (no problem) and it doesn't look quite so bad to me . . . certainly not a catastophic gap, in my opinion. Considering that Hyundai usually offers a competing car for a lower price, more features, better warranty, and to some a more desirable styling, I think a valid case can be made for choosing the Hyundai vehicle.
It takes more than just starting lemon law proceedings for a car to end up at a MBBNW auction.
And if you think Hyundai is easy about accepting a MBB, that's also not true. They fight just as hard as other manufacturers.
Let me ask you this.
Have you ever tried selling a Hyundai ?
Would you buy a used Sonata (04 or 05) for 15-20K ?
I'm pretty sure that was about the range those cars sold brand new . . .
So you are saying the Sonata is pretty close in quality to a Camry/Accord, and it's also pretty close in price. So far so good.
Where this logic falls apart is when you try to sell/trade the Sonata. That's when you'll take the proverbial "bath" in it.
Link
I guess that depends what you consider close. I consider several thousand dollars to be significant. In addition to the lower starting price, as a Hyundai owner I can get another $2,500 off in incentives from Hyundai. Maybe it's just me, but I don't take $4,000 lightly.
Where this logic falls apart is when you try to sell/trade the Sonata. That's when you'll take the proverbial "bath" in it.
You make an assumption on how long I own cars. . . the more time I own it, the less significant the "bath" gets.
First year, yes . . . but not in the third year.
No, I haven't tried to sell either of my two Hyundais because I intend to keep them for a long time. But I do keep up with the used market for Hyundais, and cars in particular, in my city and what I've noticed is that I'm a little ahead of the game dollar-wise on my '01 Elantra vs. the '01 Civic EX that was my 2nd choice (and I liked the Elantra more to boot), and I'm also doing well dollar-wise on my '04 Elantra GT.
Your question about whether I'd buy a used '04-'05 Sonata for $15-20k seems to indicate you have a basic misunderstanding about the original purchase prices of Hyundais. As someone else said, those prices are what the Sonata sold for new. That's where the whole depreciation argument falls apart, vs. Honda and Toyota.
Anybody ever really read the "warranty" anyway? I'd bet you a Stolie martini they are so peppered with exclusions and caveats that what's ultimately covered is minimal.
Nothing wrong with wanting the best for your money. Hyundai isn't a Honda, but they've probably passed the domestics in appeal.
Let's clarify some things. Out of 2,000,000 cars produced, 12,000 postings have been made in a problem/solution forum. Ok, that is 167 cars produced per post. Furthermore, it is a problem/solution forum, meaning that not all 12,000 posts are problems. In fact, a good fraction are questions about other posts, asking for clarification. Ok, for round numbers' sake, we now have 330 cars per problem.
If we assume that every one of these remaining 6,000 posts (likely much less) are all seperate, unrelated, incidental problems (meaning not caused by some type of operator error), then we have a success rate of 99.996% of problem-free cars.
I realize (obviously) that many more cars than this have had problems over the years. My point is to imply that 12,000+ posts in that particular forum means absolutely nothing to me, because I have absolutely no idea of the ratio of problematic cars to people that report them here.
I too doubt that many (if any) write in that forum to say "Nope, no problems here, yay Honda! You're my hero! etc..." It is a problem/solution forum, not a cheerleading squad. Maybe we should start happy forums for these cars and see who can garner the most posters!!!
All the 12,500 posts in the Accord Problems & Solutions discussion tell me is that the Accord is not problem-free, as was suggested by someone else. So if a car is not problem-free, isn't it nice to have as long a warranty as possible?