BMW 3-Series Run Flat Tires

nkeen

I've been saying for a couple of years now that "RFT tuned suspension be damned, unsprung weight is still unsprung weight. Reduce it and the performance, ride and handling of the car will improve, all else being equal of course."

I'd be interested in what the weight difference is. I've read that it is significant with the Michelin runflats used on the Honda minivans but wonder if it is as significant on the Bridgestone and Conti designs that went the stiffer sidewall route. It did seem that my 16" winter LM-22 T/R combos were heavier than the summer RE050A 17" OEM combos, but, then, I didn't weigh either.

We just returned from 2 weeks in Quimper, Brittany where I was driving a rented Renault Scenic MPV. The ride/handling setup of French cars is very impressive, handling D roads with wavy loose-chippings-on-tar surfaces and pronounced and variable camber (very similar to British B roads) in a responsive manner. I continue to be impressed with turbo-diesel power -- bags of low end torque, which I think European drivers understand to be important for making good, effortless time over long distances with a manual trans. I'd be interested to see how the E90 series would handle these roads, whether the wavy surface would bounce the car around -- saw a lot, primarily 320Ds with the same wheels as base US cars but with 16" summer tires, all with aluminum or metal-look trim. I also wonder whether the sport suspension on the US market car is more similar the SE sport or M-sport setup, but my guess is that it is probably engineered specifically for North America.

French roads are great -- I drove 380 miles overnight from Quimper to CDG -- the first half on the divided "motorway standard" RNs was good (110 kph limit with a few 90 kph sections), but the second half on the "section a peage" (A81/A11/A10) starting between Rennes and Le Mans was fast and uneventful -- great road, carefully maintained, 130 kph limit, infrequent junctions, intelligent, lane-disciplined and largely law abiding drivers. Tolls very steep (I think 24.50 euro for the c. 170 mile section).

A10 Autoroute

Brittany is great -- unspoiled, beautiful Celtic coastline, lush but with iffy weather.

nkeen

Just drove the 325i again for the first time after a couple of weeks in the Renault. The ride feels fine -- actually relatively soft and very smooth with no harshness from the tires. My guess is that the suspension calibration may differ from the Euro ones -- I suspect that my ZSP car would feel too soft there. The neglect, collapse and maintenance to higher tolerances of the northeastern US interstate system (expansion joints, unevenness of highway to bridge transitions, potholes, etc.) that causes ride grumbles here is just not in evidence on the French autoroutes. I'm again impressed by the quality of the BMW. And I'm not criticizing US road building -- the interstate system is quite something. It's just that what's built does require continuous maintenance, and to far stricter tolerances than is now the case.

Highland Pete -- now that we're into warmer weather here, I agree with what you say about temperature affecting ride quite markedly. When it drops to 45 or so here, though, I'm onto the higher profile winter tires.

dan12

I've been driving an SUV for a few years now and I was debating going back to something funner to drive like a 335i. I drove the 335i with and without the Sports Package. I loved the car with the Sports Package. It really had a race car feel (remember, I've been driving a lumbering SUV for the last few years so take "race car" with a grain of salt).

Then I drove a 328i with the Sports Package at a different dealership. This time we drove on a freeway in California with those grooves... (tram lines)? I felt like the car was darting all over the place. I had to keep both hands on the wheel to keep the car in the lane. Even though I love the way these cars look and I thought the 335i was extremely smooth, this test drive made me look at something smoother, like an X5.

But now I'm wondering... could it be that the 335i would behave differently and not tramline so much? Or could it be that the tires on the 328i were inflated too much? Or is this just normal with the RFTs?

snowmaker

worse: run flat tires on bimmers

worser: telling customers "you are the first one with this problem" (badly cupped ContiPro tires with 15K miles)

worst: ignoring the problem and not doing a thing about it, essentially having customers finance the RFT experimentation.

Shame on you BMW! :mad:

No more "ultimate driving machine" for this guy, next time it's just a car, a real car and it looks like we do that soon.

adethier

Totally agree - again, our experience with it has been really disappointing. We were all set to get the new convertible, but with no possibility to fit a donut in the trunk, we'll for the first time browse other manufacturers (We need a spare as we go to the mountain quite often.)
Here you can read our nightmare experience with these tires!">link title

skobola

Well, I did replace my Bridgestones as well and they charged me $180 for the work, which was not that bad provided that I had 8K miles already. The new Bridgestones are a little better, maybe only because they are actually still new, but all the tire problems made me really tired, as I actually have to read all the time about new developments. So, I believe after a number of Bimmers that my next car will be a Porsche.
What a shame that BMW picked up a pretty arrogant stand in regard to the tires as well as other problematic issues; and me living in Miami does not help neither, as the Miami BMW dealers are probably if not the most then among the most arrogant ones.

nkeen

I have a 325i with ZSP. The tendency to tramline (essentially, to follow the road) is much less marked when on the winter tires (LM22s on 16" rims). Whatever their other qualities, I think the RE050s are fairly hard core for a sedan. However, a degree of directional instability goes along with the responsiveness of the car. Stability is essentially a resistance to changing direction. I don't think that the grab of pavement grooving is excessive, but I remember LA's older concrete freeways (Ventura 101) to have a very deep type to cope with flash flooding. I don't hold with cell phone use and the like when conducting the business of driving, so this isn't a problem for me. You do need both hands on the wheel and to positively drive the car. Under emergency conditions, such as very hard breaking to avoid suddenly stopped traffic, the car feels amazingly stable.

Karen_S

A reporter would like to talk to owners of run-flat tires. Please respond to ctalati@edmunds.com no later than June 25, 2007 with your daytime contact information.

cbanct

Before you buy the Infiniti, you should know that the run flat problems are confined to the Bridgestone tires on the 17 inch rims. The tires on the sports package equipped 3 series, the RE050 were on Edmunds long term BMW 330i and did very well. They have statistics such as stopping distances and dB levels to back this up. They had the car for over 25,000 miles I believe.
If you look at the long term tests and search this forum, you will find this information.

cbanct

blueguydotcom

No, the RFT problems aren't confined to 17 inchers. 18s with RFTs are horrific too. Drive the car hard on uneven pavement and an RFT-equipped 330/335 will bounce across the road. It's unnerving to say the least. Switch to real tires and the bounce is gone, the car's more stable and it responds better. Switching out those RFTs changed the car for me.

I've got RFTs on my Cooper S too; they're a bit better but still not even close to as good as real tires.

kaz1dj

Unbelievable as it seemed, the TSB dated January 2007, just covered the Bridgestone Turanza EL42's in the 16 and 17" sizes. I ordered the optional 18" for my '07 328xi, which was delivered in Nov. of '06.

At about the 6,400 mi. mark, the wear and noise became noticeable and prompted me to bring it into the dealer. They agreed that a problem was developing and to bring it back around the 10,000 mile mark. After following the sagas of other owners, I thought a replacement was a no brainer, since the wear and noise were very excessive by then.

It took a lot of convincing that the 18's were the same as the 16's and 17's...duh, and that they should be judged the same as per replacement.

The good news - After a lot of phone calls and e-mails between the dealer and BMWUSA, I was authorized free replacement of all 4...but with the same tire. The dealer handled it as a "Good Will" replacement. The bad news - As it turns out, only Bridgestone makes the 18's.

Since I plan to keep my car for a long time, the dealer's comment was, "Bring 'em back again at 10,000 and get another set of tires free." He likened it to free tires for life!

badbeat

I just switched out the Turanzas on my '07 328xi to Nokian WR RFTs and all aspects of the car's handling and ride quality have improved dramatically. Granted, if you don't live in a climate that gets winter weather, these tires are a bit of a waste (they are an all weather tire). However, from the various posts it appears that Bridgestone is more the problem than RFTs in general.

rszumski

It appears this is a common problem. My BMW 2006 325xi with Bridgstone rl42 rft started a warbling-howling noise on smooth pavement at city speeds at about 6 to 8 k. At 18k (kilometers) it was so loud I brought it to the dealer who said the tires were defective and offered to replace the 4 with me paying for 2. I took the offer and the noise is now gone, but I am annoyed that BMW is passing the buck on this problem to customers. Their proud engineers clearly screwed up and their accountants are saying "make the customer pay!!".

klemaire

we just experienced the same problem with our bmw 325 i series, its a 2006. we were told at our last sevicing that we needed new front tires so we purchased 2. we just left the bmw lot again after servicing and were now told we needed 4 new tires, we couldnt believe that we needed new front tires again after less than 6,000 miles on the new tires. the gentleman scott said it was our fault probably didnt have correct tire pressure. my husband told him there was no way their people put them on and he checked it regularly, there was no way he was putting the blame on us. we were so disapointed with bmw and would never buy anything again. they called us back said having a bmw technician check for defective tires. they did finally agree to replace all 4 tires but charged us that standard 180.00. also another salesman there informed us that the tires had been recalled, they now say thats not true. a very disatisfied owner in seaside calif.

nkeen

Great. This kind of nonsense only serves to increase legal costs which are passed on to the customer, and to feather the nests of opportunistic lawyers. Give us a government that would put a stop to this litigious mess and steer the remaining lawyers into more honest work.

lipp

C'mon nkeen.....be realistic. It's not nonsense. Read the complaints. BMW is walking all over their consumers. They refuse to properly and completely address an ongoing problem. To quote a popular Billy Joel song, "We didn't Start The Fire". Take your political views and your dislike for lawyers to a more appropriate forum.

blueguydotcom

wow, somebody dislikes people with specialized knowledge who can demand a premium for their work because of that knowledge. Do you have the same disdain for architects and doctors too? lol

kirkr

I have a feeling that a some of the anger being expressed about the Bridgestone RFT's is caused a lot by a particular dealer's reponse. My dealer regularly picks up my car 90 miles away fixes the problem and returns it freshly washed. When I mentioned the RFT issue, they researched it and told me there was a problem and they would deal with it with BMW NA or the dealer would itself. The called me when the bulletin came out about the tires, picked up the car, replaced them. Initially they were going to put ELT's back on because that is what the bulletin stated unless they were not available. When I stated my desire for the Continentals, the service manager said "Gee, I think Continentals are all that we have in stock right now." And that is what they installed on the car. An excellent dealership makes a LOT of difference in ownership experience.

Kirk

Mr_Shiftright

Many surveys have concluded that what people hate more than anything is being *ignored*. I agree with that, and some dealerships are pretty bad at listening to the customer. My dealership is great---not because they are perfect, or that every car they sell is perfect, but they listen to what I say and try to act on it.

The RFTs seem to have a lot of people dissatisfied, but some reporting back to us have been satisfied or had their problems addressed by the dealer. The worst response is, I guess..."oh....WHAT problem? Never heard of that before".

Yeah, right....

circlew

I reported the same excellent service from my dealer to replace the RFT's on the first request. After many unimpressive service esperiences from the US automaker's dealer network in my past lives, this is as impressive as it gets for me.

I wish everyone would receive this experience for this issue but it looks like not all is created equal in BMW Service World.

Regards,
OW

nkeen

Post-war, British architects, yes.

nkeen

re: C'mon nkeen.....be realistic. It's not nonsense. Read the complaints. BMW is walking all over their consumers. They refuse to properly and completely address an ongoing problem. To quote a popular Billy Joel song, "We didn't Start The Fire". Take your political views and your dislike for lawyers to a more appropriate forum.

When someone celebrates the lawyers alighting on this issue, I'll respond as I see fit. Where I was raised that's known as freedom of expression, but I sometimes sense a concern, should I say a strong drive, for a "uniformity of perspective" on these pages. There are intelligent people on both sides of this issue. I hold a minority view, on these pages, if not among owners at large, at least as the discussion pertains to the summer tires. I will acknowledge that there are compromises associated with the RFT approach.

Mr_Shiftright

To all participants: It's not the view, it's the degree of civility we focus on at all times as moderators. Everyone is welcome to express any reasonable point of view, but rudeness will be noticed and politely nudged. E-mail your regular host in this forum if you have policy questions on posting etiquette. Obviously, the rule of thumb is "attack ideas, but never people". Thanks and please enjoy the forum.

Mrshiftright
Visiting Host

gwl2

put 40 PSI in all tires , isn't that a bit much?

dan12

I went back to the dealer and test drove a 335i with the sports package. It was incredibly smooth compared to the 328i with the sports package. I find that hard to understand. The 328i is a bit lighter, but I doubt that could be the difference. It may be that the 328i I drove had overinflated tires or something. Very strange, but I loved the 335i. Now the question is, does the ride get worse with time on the RFTs with the sports package?

blueguydotcom

Take an RFT ZSP-equipped 335i on a bad road. A road with potholes and cruddy pavement. If you can find a road with bad pavement in mid-corner you'll experience wheel hop and skip that simply doesn't occur in a BMW with normal tires. Heck, even freeway joints at 85+ cause the car to bounce violently. RFTs on ZSP cars = scary.

nkeen

I think that either would get progressively rougher and noisier with miles. I have about 8K on mine -- getting a little noisier, but still very smooth (325i 17" RE050a) on decent asphalt. Someone else (higlandpete) posted that the 18s gave better results than the 17s -- surprising, but yours is the second report I've read to that effect. And highlandpete is on UK roads which are very different in surface and camber treatment (much coarser aggregate, wavier, taller road crown) and maintenance (much tighter -- few expansion jolts, potholes, etc.). I would imagine that the 18" combos would give a real jolt on I-95 in SE Penna (which is mercifully being repaved as I write).

laziter

The Wife and I are looking into buying a 2007 328 Xi with the Continental tires. It has the sports package with 17 inch tires (ZSP). Is there anything I should be wary about with this purchase?

Thanks for your time guys and please keep any responses to this idiotic question simple I fly helicopters, not race cars.

Mr_Shiftright

Yeah, your wife isn't going to like the ride....who's driving this car most of the time? :P

laziter

That will be me she's has not driven a car yet. I was asking back regarding things like the RFT's etc. The ride is alot stiffer but when she get's her license we will get her a car she can bounce off a few walls.

Mr_Shiftright

Ah okay. I like the sport suspension in my friend's BMW but she is always complaining it's too hard---nothing to do with being female--she has a bad back, so I see her point.

Yes a nice rubber car for a first-time driver would be perfect...a rubber 1985 Volvo for starters?

I'm wondering if it's more the sport seats rather than the suspension that make some people whine?

manualguy

I took my car in to fix the problem with noisy tires. The dealer replaced all of them at half cost, which is average response for this issue I would say. I picked up my car a couple of days later and started to drive out of the dealership. Within a quarter mile I realized that I could not go to 3rd gear. Took it back to the dealership immediately. I am finding out that the transmission is being replaced. Not sure what the problem is. Has anybody else seen this problem?

ManualGuy

tborchman

i want my husband to buy regular tires. do you have sports package with the sports suspension?

nkeen

I'm wondering if it's more the sport seats rather than the suspension that make some people whine?

re the E90 with ZSP, lower profile tires make a significant difference - the car is much less prone to harsh bangs caused by collapsing expansion joints with its winter LM22 tires (16" RFT) fitted. It's also more directionally stable (less of the road surface or camber following, tramlining effect people refer to). However it is also much less responsive than when wearing the 17" RE050A RFTs. Low tire profile, impact harshness and damaged wheel rims go together unfortunately. I do wonder whether the stiffer RFT sidewalls do actually help prevent rim damage, however.

I think the sport seats are good, but would like a little more width for my lower back, and removal of the upholstery seam which creates an uncomfortable ridge under my rear end. The cushion itself is quite soft, but the bolsters are not. I recently drove a 328i without the sport seats, but liked the standard seats less. I think you have to live with the sports seats for a while to appreciate them. They are a compromise designed to hold you in place under hard cornering -- not always the best compromise for a cross country trip. I do get surprisingly little of the rotor cuff ache that I get in a lot of cars with softer seats. You're not going to get the level of long distance comfort you'd get in a Volvo S80 though.

dan12

That is exactly what I thought after driving the 328i with ZSP. I wouldn't want to drive that car. Then I took out a 335i with ZSP on the same exact freeway. The 328i felt like it was bouncing all over the place. Scary is the right word for it. But I drove the 335i on purpose with one finger on the steering wheel and it had no problems. It felt really solid. I just don't know what will happen after 10k or 20k miles. Also, I didn't take it on a windy bad road so I don't know how it might skip in the corners.

dan12

So if you don't use RFT's anymore, did you put a spare and a car jack in the trunk? I'm assuming there is no problem running non-RFT's even though BMW intended the car to run on these tires?

xeye

OW,

Thanks for the reassurance. Where/who is your dealer? Does anyone have any positive/negative experience with Foreign Motors West in MA? I've just ordered a 335xi with ZSP but the 17" all season tires. I'm not at all happy about what I've been reading about the Bridgestone EL42s. My dealer has already told me that it is up to the factory and what they have on hand as to what they mount. $45K for a car and lousy tires is not something I'm anticipating favorably. My sales guy is great, but it may not be up to him to keep me happy.

xeye

rfl

DO NOT, REPEAT DO NOT accept the car with Bridgestone tires. Any Bridgestone tires. Have the dealer mark the order that customer will NOT ACCEPT Bridgestone tires on delivery. Specify that the car be delivered with Continental tires or DO NOT SPEND $1, let alone $45k on it. Guess what... you'll get the Continental tires and you will be happier with them. If the sales guy says he can't do it...FIND ANOTHER DEALER. I have the Conti Pro Contac RFT's on my 330xi (it came with Bridgestone tires...I drove them 2500 miles and DEMANDED that they be changed and the dealer DID JUST THAT.) Money talks! and so far you haven't spent any. For $45K you get what you want...even with the arrogant BMWnicks.

circlew

Circle BMW, RTE. 36, Eatontown NJ...see Tahtiana C.

Request the Conti's anyway even if the dealer must install. Make that the deal breaker.

I'll bet Tahtiana would make this happen! A one sentence e-mail made the no-cost switch to Conti's after 12K on the P.O.S. EL-42's happen for me. Impeccable.

Regards,
OW

dkg42

My 325I came with the Bridgesstone EL42's..I had to pay $350+ (1/2 cost) to the BMW dealer in Miami to have them replaced. They were defective, major road noise, but it started at 11,000 miles so I got boned on BMW's policy of only paying 50% if the tires have over 10k miles. Now after 4500 miles one of these POS tires has a %$#$% nail in it. Cost to replace..$285

I hate these %$(%@ tires....

How do we get a class action lawsuit going against BMW for this?

stevecebu

Hopefully one day a tire manufacturer will figure out how to build an rft thats works as well as a conventional tire. And bmw makes rft optional in 08....

Is this really true? I mean are they going to really do it or is it just a rumor? I like the 1 series and would rather have a donut as a spare but you need a jack and a lug wrench! Is there room for that or will it just flop around in the trunk?
I'm no fan of RFT. I understand why they use them and for me I'd buy continental Contact3's as they seem very good but it would be great news in the 1 series had RFT's as an option and gave us a donut spare.

xeye

I actually did put a 1K deposit down on the car. I'm wondering if this is refundable if the deal goes sour. My sales guy told me he can't do anything about what is mounted in Germany (pot luck what you get), but IF a car is available with the same wheels (ZSP & 17" all seasons) at the same time when my car arrives at the dealership, he'll swap the wheels and (ContiProContact if they're already mounted)) tires, but won't just swap the tires because of the risk of damage to the wheels BECAUSE of the characteristics of the much heavier run-flat tires and how difficult they are to remove from the rims. This last information I gained from Town Fair Tire in my local area. The chances of this are about slim to none.

This doesn't sound good and implies that I'm at the mercy of the dealer. Any REALISTIC suggestions?

circlew

Make it the deal breaker. They can change tires without damage because they have the proper equipment. guess what else they are trying to sell you?

Do not accept what you do not want.

Regards,
OW

xeye

Extended warranty?

dglassm

This is just speculation , BMWUSA would not confirm nor deny the tire choice for 08 models . Spare tires and the associated hardware have been around for a long time , solid technology, sometimes its best to leave well enough alone . Ironically , if cars with rft were equipped with full size rft spares one of the biggest problems would be solved i.e. you could continue your vacation after a flat by changing your own tire at the local gas station (or on the highway). The spareless approach puts you at the mercy of limited rft availability . Better pray that your flat occurs within 50 miles from the nearest bmw shop or your vacation has come to an abrupt end ...

circlew

I do not think the extended warranty is worth it. The conti's cost <$150 on Tirerack.

Regards,
OW

xeye

I was just trying to guess what else it is you're suggesting they're trying to sell me. What I may do is send the dealer a registered letter putting them on notice that if the tires develop problems at my discretion, I will hold them responsible for replacements (Conti's) at their expense. The sales guy said that he walked the lot and some of the cars had Conti's, others had the Bridgestones. He knows what I want, it may not make sense to make a big stink until the car arrives. It's being built next week.

What's the buyer's responsibility once the P&S is signed?

stevecebu

This is just speculation , BMWUSA would not confirm nor deny the tire choice for 08 models . Spare tires and the associated hardware have been around for a long time , solid technology, sometimes its best to leave well enough alone . Ironically , if cars with rft were equipped with full size rft spares one of the biggest problems would be solved i.e. you could continue your vacation after a flat by changing your own tire at the local gas station (or on the highway). The spare less approach puts you at the mercy of limited rft availability . Better pray that your flat occurs within 50 miles from the nearest bmw shop or your vacation has come to an abrupt end ...

Well I have been in some pretty remote places and let me tell you 50 miles isn't going to get you the a gas station never mind a BMW dealership and you can probably find a starter motor for a 69 Dodge Dart, but getting a RFT for a brand new Model BMW and then being able to find someone with the equipment AND the experience to put it on the special rims they use? :sick:
I see it as a deal breaker for me as I just can't be stuck way out somewhere and no chance at getting a spare. But you can always find something to throw on the car until you finish your trip and get home and call Tire Rack or the dealer.
I hope it will be available. I wonder what the deal would be if i could take delivery with not wheels or tires and get a discount on the RFT that come with the car?
There must be a solution, maybe they will announce more info in the coming weeks. I mean how secret is something like regular tires being an option?

circlew

If you are going to take the car anyway, I do not know how much legal weight your letter will hold but perhaps there may be a silver lining since there is a recall for the EL42. Worst case is you take the car even with the Bridgestones and site the recall in your letter.

I will try to find the .pdf for you...it's around here somewhere.

Regards,
OW

circlew

http://www.bmwtis.com/tsb/bulletins/bulletin_graphic_temp/B360606g.htm">link title