Synthetic motor oil

wtd

Are you guys that are going over 5,000 miles on your synthetic oil changes doing oil analysis or anything else to determine if your oil is really holding up well?

My blackstone lab results on my 5W-30 Mobil 1 in my 98 chevy truck with 5.7L and 5,069 miles on the oil, did not support extended drain intervels. Blackstone labs suggested trying 4,000 mile intervel and retesting.

I read alot of claims here saying you can easily go 5000, 7500, and even 10000 miles using synthetics but no one ever gives any evidence of this. I would like to see some evidence of these claims with oil analysis results if anyone cares to post them. I'm mainly talking about off the shelf synthetics like Mobil 1, valvoline synpower, etc, not amsoil.

I also see alot of people determining the quality of their oil by the color. My oil at 5,069 miles was still golden brown but was not holding up well at all. Lets see that evidence.

armtdm

Well I annto give you Moibl 1 or brand names but I am sure that Mobile 1 would be similar to my Amsoil. I osted my 0W30 results on this borad a few weeks ago at about 8000 miles on the oil I also have a Buick 2000 GSE SC analyzed recently with 12,190 miles on oil and results fine

Each engine is different and I have one where 7,500 is about it, my Buick 12,000 is fine. Each engine has its own parameters and it has to be found!

amorales

That happened to me. Put Mobil 1 5W-30 Tri-Syn in wife's new Purse on wheels vehicle (AZTEK GT), i noticed an oil pan leak, took it to dealer. They did dye check, installed new gasket, adhesive and refilled the crankcase with dino oil without changing filter. Mobil says ok to mix Syn and dino but advised against mixing different Synthetics. Someone told me engine cannot handle degradation of oil. I don't believe it. I feel no harm was done. I feel we may have to keep the AZTEK forever so i wanted to prolong engine life with Syn. But now i hear of some person going a million miles with 3000 mi oil changes at Jiffy Lube using Pennzoil in a mid 90's pick-up i believe. I ve been using M1 for several years with no problems yet.

Regards to all

dave210

I'm glad to hear I probably have done no harm to the car. I guess I was informed wrongly years back when I was told once you go synthetic, there's no going back. But anyway, thanks again!

ruking1

#2551

Send me a couple of those test kits, I will mail them to the place you mentioned and you can publish the results! I do a 15,000 drain interval on 3 TLCs, and more applicable to you, a Chevrolet Corvette Z06. 5.7 litre V-8 385 hp and 385# ft of torque.

brorjace

Dave210, the industry is changing and the line between synthetics and conventional oils is blurring more each day. Common-brand synthetics are being diluted with heavily processed crude oil and typical oils are being fortified with the same stuff. In a way, the two are slowly merging together. Another update or two from API and the two types may be chemically indistinguishable. They way they are packaged and marketed, however, is another story. >;^)

wtd, I remember that you posted your results here and those familiar with oil analysis talked about them for a while. Perhaps you could re-post those results in the "Oil Analyst Sites" thread and bring it back to the top of this forum? I'd like to take another look at your results as well since I recently went the testing route myself.

Yes, I took the plunge and had oil analysis done on the oil I ran last summer/fall. But, it was Red Line 10W30 and not the mass-market stuff like Mobil 1, Val Synpower, QS, etc ...

After 7,232 miles my results were very good. I've been told by a 3rd party that Hondas often show more lead than some cars but other than that (and some sodium which is probably an oil additive) my results were as good or better than the average for my type of engine (gasoline 4-cylinder?) and those results were based on a mere 3,100 mile interval.

A year ago I would have recommended the mass-market synthetics like Mobil 1, Val Syn, etc ... without any reservations but it seems more and more of them are taking Castrol's lead and diluting their PAO base stocks with hydrocracked crude. This sleazy move doesn't exactly inspire confidence in these products and unless someone can show me evidence that one or more is 100% PAO, I'm staying clear of all of them. I'd rather use an "SL" dino for less than half the price because most of them are formulated with the same or similar hydrocracked crude as well.

Because I wanted to stick with a really high-performance oil, I decided to go with a more specialized synthetic that is used by serious car guys and racers, especially sports car guys.

Red Line isn't subject to the same commercial pressures that most of the others are and since their marketing program is fairly pathetic, their reputation among racers and people who rebuild their own engines is pretty much all they have. I doubt they would jeopardize it by cheapening their formulas ... although I'll always be on the lookout for this sort of thing.

As for additive packages, analysis shows that Amsoil uses a great deal of wear preventatives such as zinc and phosphorus at a time when Mobil 1 cut way back. Assuming that both formulas are still predominantly PAO, I don't know if this alone would make up the difference ... but it's plausible.

wtd, I know what you're saying but fleet testing (some of it better than others) has shown that people can go 5,000 and even 7,500 on regular dino oils. I bet climate, driving style and engine type have a lot to do with their satisfactory results. Still, I, like you, would like to see more lab test results using the more common synthetics.

--- Bror Jace

ruking1

#2556

I don't know if Mobil One folks monitor this thread, but I have to say that as a long time user of this product, almost exclusively, I would switch in a heartbeat if it became evident that they were degrading the formula to "keep down with the Jones" so to speak. While I do not relish the increased cost of say a Amsoil or Redline, the quality is important to me. Having said that, I have yet to really decipher the real benefits of the switch to the "tri synthetic" formula other than to try to understand a famous race car driver who speaks Australian English.

armtdm

Amsoil is higher on zinc and phosphorus with almost no moly showing up in analysis, RedLien is heavy in moly.

Both appear to work fine and neither is API certified as you know.

wtd

I will retest soon and post results.

ocelot1

I ordered one of these things waiting for it to show up should make taking a sample of oil farly easy.

n8wvi

According to the amsoil web site, most of their oils ARE API certified. Some even to SL levels and also to ILSAC GF3. I only noticed this because for some reason I honestly can't explain, I've been considering switching from Mobil1 to Amsoil. Probably partly because Mobil1 isn't SL certified yet and they can't tell me why or when they will be. Makes me wonder.... I haven't switched yet because I don't know which of the two 5w-30 oils to use.....

armtdm

I have the fumoto valve on five cars. Beautiful!

One of the Amsoil 5W30 is primarily diesel.

I use the 0W30 in lieu of the 5W30 , analysis fine. more expensive

rd_volvo

Well I changed over to Mobil1 two changes ago [22k] and I started leaking oil about a pancake size once a week or so[28k] two weeks ago. I didn't want to beleive the leak myth but we are going to see. Last week I went back to Castrol 10-30 [gtx] and so far no leaks. Hope this is the fact.

One observation was that petro based oils seem
to pour out like mollases but the Mobil1 seems to pure out like water. I was really hoping to use Mobil1 for life but if the seals won't seal it ain't worth it. Maybe some cars seals are better sooted for synthetics.

I did all my homework before going to Mobil1
and heard all sides of the leak conspiracy theory
but what I would like to ask is if anyone had converted to synthetic oil then leaked. Then reverted back to petro based oil and had the leak stop.

Thanks,

rd

ruking1

#2563

I would personally get those seals checked out. The seals may not be seated correctly or not torqued to correct values or they may be in fact leaking seals. For a personal example, I had a 1987 TLC . That particular line (fj60) had a known rear main bearing leak after 90k , ie regardless of oil type.

armtdm

Well, I have also had seals leak after converting to synthetic but months later stop once the crud was removed and oil had a chance to work. Perhaps you could have given it more time.

In general though, I would say that, contrary to what manufacturers say, you have a greater probability of leaking with synthetic oil. I do have seepages on a few cars but not leaks to the extent they drip on the ground.

mrdetailer

None of my cars started leaking seals on any type of oil before 120K. Then they all did, regardless of whether theoil was conventional, synthetic blend, or full synthetic.

Synthetic isn't hard on seals, but with it's uniform molecules and generally slippery characteristics don't help if leaks exist.

Hydrocracked oils like Valvoling Maxlife, and Quaker State Higher Mileage Engine Oil and Castrol Syntec will condition seals. Their quality is between conventional, and a full synthetic.

I would be for taking that car into the dealer and having the seals replaced under warranty.

bobistheoilguy

"Bobistheoilguy, what about certain lubricants having a lower coefficient of friction? I have lots of anecdotal evidence to this effect ... most noticeably using synthetic oil (Mobil 1, I think) in my pull-start lawn mower. You can pull start it much easier because of the synthetic oil. The stuff actually seems to lubricate better. I also think this is why tests show the oil provides superior mileage (MPGs) than mineral oils. Some of it is fewer pumping losses ... but I don't believe that explains the entire difference. "

ok, let give you something to chew on....

we know that the rate of speed in which oil flows past 2 given points at a set temp dictates the Cst or SUS which converts to a specific weight classification of an oil in terms of viscosity (operating temp).

so if oil is measured at the 100deg C, a 10w30 mineral oil timed a flow at 12.4 cst, and a synth 10w30 is measured at 100 deg C and produces also a 12.4 cst, how is it that the synth oil flows easier than the mineral? the measurements are the same, time and viscosity(reffering to operating viscoisty only not cP lower visc)..

Viscosity is a measurement of resistance to flow. At a given temperature, two oils with the same viscosity have the same flow properties. This is pretty much the definition of viscosity.

Viscosity is a function of (is caused by) internal friction. If the viscosities of two oils are the same at a given temperature, it is because their internal frictions are the same AT THAT TEMPERATURE. Two fluids cannot have the same viscosity if they have different internal frictions.

A polybutene, a polyglycol, a phthalate ester, a paraffinic mineral oil and a naphthenic mineral oil that have the same viscosity (same flow properties) at a given temperature (say 100C) are that way because they have the same internal friction at that temperature, period.

 The internal friction is a combined function of their molecular structure, molecular weight, and density at a given temperature.

Synthetics have inherently good low temperature properties. That's why they were used for hydraulic fluids in outdoor systems long before they were used for crankcase oils. Minerals use Pour Point Depressants (PPD) which are wax crystal modifiers. They make the wax molecules form small crystal even when they want to form big ones

so the big question.... if both oils flow the same, since both are a say 10w30, then when the oil is squeezed say in an area like the rod bearing pushing against the crank, oil is going to take the least path of resistance and flow, and since both oils have the same flow properties, which is going to stay in there longer????? neither.. they are the same..so how is the synth better for protection if both oils are flowing through at the same speed.. guess what?.. it's not the base oil.. it's the additives.. synth's last longer normally in extended drains but wear protection is due to the antiwear additives/ ep additives. (one reason amsoils 2000 and 3000 series oils are not api because they offer higher levels of this protection as do max life by valvoline)

For your typical car, I don't see the advantage of synthetics. A race car, a city taxi, a police car, a dune buggy, an SUV that actually leaves the pavement (or is that just a myth?) may all benefit from a syn. Severe service, extended drains, yes, normal service, no.

I think the guys who drive regular cars in normal service are kidding themselves, especially in light of the SL/GF-3 mineral oils on the market now. I think it's some kind of a machismo thing, like the guy who goes to Home Depot and buy a $200 Milwaukee circular saw when the $50 Black and Decker is already overkill for what he is really going to cut. It gives them something else to argue about at the bar with other guys of similarly limited knowledge.

Flow is flow, whether you get it with inherently good low temperature behavior or with wax crystal modifiers and protection from antiwear additives is what protects your engine.. the synth or mineral base oil is nothing more than a carrier for these additives and carries these additives through out the engine. keep the carrier oil working good, then the additives can do thier job, but if the carrier oil starts to fail, then the additives fail. it's a full circle kinda thing.. gota have the right mix.. base oil/anti wear additives/detergents/antifoam/antioxidants and so forth. notice, detergents keep the engine clean, antioxidants keep the acids from the cleaning of the engine and byproducts of gas and heat from breaking down the base oil, anti foam agents, keep the oil from foaming and not cooling properly. see where this is going? without any of these additives, see how well your engine will hold up. mineral or synth.

oh yeah, as for improved fuel milage... most times any fuel milage will be noticed due to nothing more than ep additives.. that is if your using the same viscosity oils when you switch from mineral to synth. actually you'll see more improvement in fuel milage switching to valvoline max life than from a mineral to a conventional synth. (i don't include amsoil since they do carry more ep additives than allowed by api cert's).

bob in jville fl.

Member STLE

Lubricant Specialist

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com

zr2rando

I knew I was using petro oil for a reason, now I know the reason! That's a pretty good lecture on oil! I think anyone that uses the synthetics is probably mainly benefiting from the extended drain interval that the oil is probably giving them, hopefully they change filters often enough to go along with that. There is nothing wrong with trying to do the best you can with the best materials available (may not be cost effective, just depends on your goals..I've known folks that planned on keeping that vette forever, then had to trade it in on the family vann,,,all that work for someone elses benefit ). I also think that at a certain point engine oil will all contain at least a certain fraction of synthetics in order to meet current reqd standards...I think the days of old fashioned Quaker State oil looking like gray wax inside the valve cover and me and the boys standing around saying "yeah, that wax protects the engine till the oil starts flowing...".....are well behind us.
I'm not all that old and I DO remember that!
Good mornin y'all
Rando

tboner1965

Not to be confused with Bob the Build. (Why are cartoons so hard on adults, watching the same thing over and over again, anyway, back to the topic.)

I've read what you are saying twice, but I guess I don't know what you are arguing about. I do understand the drill and saw thing, I borrow them from my neighbor and take him the occassional case of beer.

I do think part of the belief is that full synthetic oils (not considering the carrier oils added) flow better at low temperature extremes. I do agree that at the test temperatures a 5W30 should flow the same be it synthetic or refined crude.

However, how does each oil behave at temperature extremes. I suspect, but don't have the evidence to back it up, (so any accurate information with references someone could throw in here would be nice) that synthetic oils do have better flow than conventional oils at some temperature. While the conventional oils use the "crystal modifiers" (another bad cartoon comes to mind) to improve low temperature flow, the synthetic molecule is designed to perform a bit better.

I dunno about saving fuel, but even if I got a 1% increase in fuel economy over 10K miles (The change interval on my 87 Buick.) That saves me 4 gallons of fuel or between $4 and $6. If no difference, I still get two to three times the interval between oil changed compared to what Iffy Lube and others recommend at 3mo/3K miles. At that rate I'd be changing the oil changed every 5 weeks, instead of every 3-4 months.

However, I do suspect that there may be slight improvement in mileage with a synthetic. Why? Because you are getting more lubrication and less additive with the oil. Since the molecules are essentially a "designer lubricant" you don't need to add as much "non-lubricant" to have reasonable flow properties, resistence to thermal breakdown, acids and the like.

I understand that there are some additives, but believe a synthetic uses fewer than a conventional oil.

Anyone have any hard data on this? I would search this board, but the search function is not very good.

FWIW,

TB

adc100

The absolsute uniformity of syn molecules causes a greater affinity to metal and therefore protects the surface better. This results in lower wear. This is really independent of the bulk viscosity and flow characteristics, I believe.

Petroleum breaks down very rapidly compared to syns and therefore you have a degrading product. If you could change conventional oils every 1000 miles the differences could be less.

The fact is that synthetics have been proven in industry to result in less wear and give improved economy. I recently saw an article in Automotive Engineering which yielded a 3% (approx) increase in milage when all fluids in a truck fleet were converted to syn. The fact is that also that Mobils test of two identical vehicles yielded significantly lower wear after 200K. Cleanliness was also significantly better.

Again the reasons are better metal adherence by the syn and lack of degredationdue to time.

One other item-performance in abnormal conditions. When bad things happen to your vehicle-like loss of a radiator hose in summertime, you are likely to have fewer problems with syn. I'v told my wife that if idiot lights go on when she is driving and can not safely sit on the side of the road to keep going to the next exit. Syns will allow that. Conventional oils-get your wallet handy. Couple of years ago my Toy overheated coming home in a snowstorm (thermostat stuck shut). I stopped the vehicle and beat on it with no avail. I drove the last 4 miles with the temp pegged. In the snow that was about 10 minutes. Never had a problem.

vwracer

I have always used petrolium oil and changed every 3-4000 miles. After reading your post # 2567, I am now going to keep using dino oil and changing every 3-4000 miles.

An interesting statistic I heard a while back was that motor oil and coffee are the two most tested fluids on this planet.

I race a VW and have heard from a few VW engine builders that you should NEVER use synthetic oil in an air cooled VW engine, or any air cooled engine. The theory is synthetic oil is designed to repell heat and an air cooled engine requires oil to remove heat from the heads. This is why they have an oil cooler. What do you think of this?

zr2rando

VWracer,
I don't think the synthetic oil is supposed to REPEL heat, it is supposed to reduce friction which would reduce the heat generated by that friction. Any oil is also supposed to transport that generated heat to a oil cooler (in the radiator, in front of the radiator, the filter, or if nothing else just the oilpan at least). Maybe BOBISTHEOILGUY knows if the synthetic oil has a higher heat capacity than petro oil , if that is the case it can at least CARRY more heat away. I think the main benefit is supposed to be less friction in the motor (long engine life/better gas mileage), and more resistance to the problems associated with hydrocarbon combustion (longer change interval). The question we are all asking is if it DOES that enough to warrant the cost of using it.
I also use petro oil and normal 3k/3-4 month interval by the way.
Hope that helps
Rando

ruking1

Well, I got another boring "why I use synthetic oil" post. My 94 TLC just went in for a 90k service. As you know I have been using 15k intervals with 5w30, 10w-30 synthetic Mobil One. This TLC is in fact the 3rd TLC that I have had to pass the 90k mark. The dealer pulled the valve cover off to check the valves. They stated that not only where they in spec but showed almost no degradation and absolutely no oil sludge. Not only do I have to get under the hood up to 5x less but the engine is running just fine with the extended oil change. (6 oil changes @15k as opposed to normal 30 oil changes @3k.)

A small but interesting advantage, is that I go so long between dealer visits that they send me special 10% off coupons in addition to the regular discounts that occur during the year.

div2

"I race a VW and have heard from a few VW engine builders that you should NEVER use synthetic oil in an air cooled VW engine, or any air cooled engine. The theory is synthetic oil is designed to repell heat and an air cooled engine requires oil to remove heat from the heads. This is why they have an oil cooler. What do you think of this?"
Well, you better tell Porsche...

brorjace

Bobistheoilguy, thanks for the cud. I'll be chewing for some time, I think. >;^)

So, you are saying that the oil really has little ability to lubricate ... but is actually just a carrier for anti-wear (and other) additives? I think someone can put too much faith in the base stock but I think that each can also have their own coefficient of friction or film strength. Just so I can be sure, are you saying that any difference between the various base stocks is neglibible in the area of friction prevention ... at least when they are new?

As for who should use synthetic oil, can you refine (or qualify) your list a little? I mean, why should an SUV that goes off-road (what a concept!) need synthetic oil? Are you assuming the engine will be under heavy load? Are high load and high-RPM conditions what necessitates the use of a superior flowing lubricant? What about sports car guys that like to play tag with their redlines regularly? What about stop and go driving? What's so hard about that? Is it the high temperatures the cars can experience? Doresn't this vary with the type of car? Some cars handle extensive idling better than others and this stop-and-go may actually be EASY on the engine ... and consequently oil. Thoughts?

I really think that trends in the automotive industry are making it harder and harder on oil ... which is why the standards are being continually upgraded. More and more cars & drivers are falling into the 'severe' category. Remember when few cars had a redline past 6,000rpm? Well now, about 1/3 of Hondas have a Redline of 7,500 rpms or more ... and since they displace less and are geared lower, you really rev them ... especially if you cruise at 80mph (higher RPMs on today's cars) while on the highway.

adc100, SAE got +3% using TRUCKS? Well then, the difference should be even higher with a smaller, lighter, higher-revving vehicle like a sports car. >:^D

Also, I lost my radiator in 1993 in my '90 Integra. I was on the Mass Pike between Albany & Boston doing about 65mph. I never knew anything was wrong until my temp gauge caught my eye. It was pegged on hot and I found out there was no coolant left in my radiator. I went 8 miles at the same speed until the next exit. Days later, the car was fixed and the only thing that happened to the motor was that the valve lash was thrown out of whack. Thank you, synthetic oil! The car went on until 180,000 miles. >:^D

vwracer, I think what you heard is a remnant from the early multi-viscosity oil days about 15-20 years ago. That stuff was junky and often sludged up under high heat conditions. I would not hesitate to use today's synthetic oil in an air-cooled engine but I'd make sure it was a relatively heavy, narrow range oil like a 10W30, 15W40, 15W50 or 20W50. In other words, Avoid formulas with the gooey viscosity-extending polymers. I think this is good advice for most cars, though. >;^)

--- Bror Jace

adc100

The trucks had syn in all of the gearboxes, transmissions, and engine. Its possible that it would be hard to beat that %3 with cars because of the heavy loads-probably in the punkins. Who knows.

Also I really disagree about the effect of friction being small irregardless of the base stock. That could apply to full film (hydronamic) lubrication where there is an oil wedge between the moving parts. There are of course formulas for calculating the loads and power losses and they are a direct function of viscosity. And all other things being equal-molassis of the right viscosity would lubricate like an oil of the same viscosity. But once you get into the partial film (boundary)lubrication all bets are off. These classic formulas don't apply. The friction and wear occurrs on the micropic level and thats where anti-wear additives and syn lube with their uniform optimized size earn their keep. I would think that a high percentage of lubrication in the engine fall into this catagory. Also the heat and this partial film stuff tears up conventional oils lots quicker than syn as you know. Viscosity changes in conventional oils can change by hundreds of percent over and oil change.

Hey, talk to you later, I gotta go to town to get the wife's groceries.

bobistheoilguy

i want to address your comments and questions because there is some excellent points , but it will have to be later tonight. i've got a lot of appointments today so will be quite busy.

i know some of you have had some excellent experiences with synth and contribute your "luck" to the synth. but here is one for you.

i used a 10w30 mineral based oil awhile back with a 302 van i had. i'd just re done the heads, replaced the oil, and was running around town. a few days later started a 360 mile round trip to dallas, about 16miles from my house on the way out i looked back in the mirror and saw smoke pouring out from behind. pulled over and found my oil was all over the entire back side of the engine, exhaust,and trannie. pulled the stick, no oil registered. had one quart of this special mineral oil from schaeffers, put it in, still didn't register. at this point i didn't care because of my fustration of putting all that time and now i figured i'd have to replace rear main seal, and engine was old so if i blew it so be it. i drove it back the 16 miles without this registering, got home shut it down, in the morning, checked it out, found that i had failed to tighten the darn oil drain. i ended up putting 4.5 qts of oil back into this engine, and drove it to and from florida 2 times, fl to mississippi and back once, and sold it 4 yrs ago. i just saw it 3 wks ago and the guy says it still runs perfect and drives it up to WV and back at least once a year.

now, in this situation, i didn't care if i blew it or not, but i can assure you, the only thing that made this survive was not the oil since it virtually had none, but the residue barrier lubricant additive that was in the oil that had been plating the metal since i first starting to use this mineral oil.

 i have many customers with stories of simular situations that had been using just our mineral oil, some others with our blend.

point being,many of use can tell a survival story but what was the underlying factor that really saved it? the base oil? or the additives used in the composition of that oil?

more to come later

bob in jville

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com

armtdm

Almost everything that is pbulished is the "anecdotal" story as noted buy above.

True "independent" lab results can never be found where the lab is named and the tests are not paid for by the company that sponsors the test. These reports are non existent, to my knowledge, for the average automobile driver. I want to see an engine with 200,000 miles put on over 10 years with stop and go driving, commuting etc. with various oils used, various change intervals, the engine torn down and analyzed.

Never see it!

dhanley

I'm sorry, i think you're just advertising your product there. That's against town hall rules.

dave

Mr_Shiftright

Bob---I think dhanley has a point.

Let's compromise here and I'll ask you to just delete your website address that you put in after every post, since you sell products on that site. Otherwise, I think your information is valuable and we'd like to have it, as long as you don't solicit your products in any way.

thank you

Host

mrdetailer

He has mentioned AMSOIL and Valvoline Maxlife recently as good oils. Frankly this is the first time I have heard him mention the brand he sells. And here he did it only to prove a highly discussed point.

Mr_Shiftright

Understood, which is why I'm only asking that he remove the website address. His information is much appreciated, but the rules on solicitation are pretty strict in Town Hall, so I am obliged to apply them evenly to everyone.

mbbenz

I have a hot dog stand that sits in front of my local Walmart. Does that mean that I can't put up that website on here too?

Ahhh, shucks. Well, could you at least allow me to tell the folks here that I run a special this week for "Buy a hot dog at regular price and get a free 16 oz soda and bag of chips".

brucer2

On the Yahoo, Infiniti forum, there is a person who is a petroleum engineer (Texasoil) that has a very similar veiw to Bob(theoilguy) about engine lubrication. That is unless the engine is subjected to rather sever use, pure synthetics aren't necessary. Texasoil happens to like Valvoline Durablend.
I think the most important thing is to match oil change schedules to how the car is driven.

ruking1

#2584

It probably bears mentioning that today's new rated conventional oil has sae ratings that put it at around 12,000 miles.

One can very definitely do well using today's much improved conventional oil.

dhanley

I think it's true that you are wasting money if you use short intervals and don't overstress the engine. I've done that and i wasted my money.

However, i would be highly unwilling to use non-synthetic for very long intervals, because the non-synthetics need more additive to do the job right, and this extra additive breaks down over time resulting in reduced protection and increased varnish.

At least this is what i've gleaned from several info sites.

dave

ruking1

#2586

Also, if you have ever had the pleasure of dismantling an engine block from the vehicle and had to scrape sludge from the innards, just the resistance to engine oil sludging makes synthetics worth the "extra expense. " Of course, if you do greater interval oil changes over conventional oil, it is actually "less expensive" to run synthetic.

armtdm

I have been using syntheitcs for about 10 years. At the most it is a break even in cost over 10,000 miles for an interval. Beyond 10,000 you start to save. And, this is only if you do the changes yourself, paying someone else with synthetic is too costly.

Over 12,000 miles here is my cost
Amsoil 10W30 5 quarts @ $4.35/quart (dealer discount) or $21.75
Amsoil filter @ $7.95
at 6000 miles a new filter @$7.95 and a quart of oil @$4.35

Total cost for a 12,000 mile change interval (no sales tax) is $42.00

High grade dino at the most can be purchased for $1.25 or less
so $1.25 @ 5 quarts plus filter @ $5.99 (Pure One filter) (can be done for much less as you know) or $12.24 per change. (in actual fact I know you can do an oil and filter under $10 with dino) but let us keep the $12.24. So, for 12,000 miles the dino change will cost you (3000,6000,9000 miles ) or $48.96. At $10 per change it will be $40 or a break even.

All depends on how you play with the numbers but in reality you have to go at least 12,000 miles between changes to break even with synthetic.

Now, how much value do you place on time and hassle? If you service multiple cars as I do this is a major factor for extended drains. Further, for those not accustomed to looking under the car once a month or so the 3000 mile drain interval has an advantage for long term durability.

SO, it comes down to whatever floats your boat!

ruking1

#2588

Actually for me it is a godsent to do an oil change once a yr (15k intervals). I have 4 vehicles, down from 5. So if I do a 3000k oil change, each one is 5 times a yr x 4 or 20 oil changes vs 4 per yr. Since I run 2 businesses. The only one I can reasonably expect to work for "free" is me. But again that is the same calculation, Do I make more money changing oil or getting more business? So I really like going to get it changed 4 times per yr for a total of 4 vehicles vs 20 x, whether I do it or not.

Incidently, using Mobil One and OEM oil filters (3.30 per qt, and 2.75-3 per oem filter) the costs are slightly cheaper from a practical point of view, but % wise way cheaper.

brucer2

This is a good thing to keep in mind. I take care of 2 cars. I live in NYC, and one does a bit over 10K miles a year, and the other under 4k. Extended milage drain intervals aren't appropriate. What they really need are changes around 3 times a year. The car that does real low millage almost never goes on a highway, and so all kinds of bad things collect in the oil. $1.50/qt SL grade oil and basic Purolator filers are the right answer in this case.

dhanley

I used to drive about 700 miles a week, mostly highway, to work. This would have left me changing the oil on my car every month if i had stuck to the 3,000 mile intervals.

I suppose, in retrospect, that a monthly change at jiffy lube would have been OK, but stretching the intervals to 10,000 with synthetic helped make the long intervals possible, which was really convienent.

Now, that car did seem to have a lot of blowby, so i may have messed up the engine by doing that. It also burned a quart every 800 miles. So you do have to think twice. In that case jiffy lube once a month would have probably been an improvement.

dave

brorjace

I just thought I'd step in and defend RobistheLubeDude.

Yes, he references his site on which he sells one particular brand of oil but he doesn't directly promote it here ... and was said before, he has said charitable things about a lot of other brands of oil. I don't know how stringent the standards are here about 'selling' but maybe it would help if Bob put a link directly to pertinent articles on his site rather than merely the home page? Given what Nigel Shiftright said, just cut-and-paste the text?

Yes, I have a number of good anecdotal stories about synthetic oil but I can't say definitely that dino juice wouldn't have done the same thing ... except for one instance. Red Line oil eliminated the 'piston-slap' noise in my Civic when no other oil (synth or dino) would. >:^)

Bob's 302 van story just tells me how important the additives are in an oil and underscores how questionable it was for Mobil Oil Corp. to have halved the amount of ZDDP in their Mobil 1.

mbbenz, if I buy a hot dog AND chips AND a soda, will you throw in a quart of synthetic oil for nuttin'? (PAO, no hydrocracked goo) >;^)

As for break-even-points, I figured that $4.50 per quart synthetic, $5.00 filters and 6,500 mile intervals are roughly equivalent over 1 year to $1.50 dino oil, $5.00 filters and 3,000 mile intervals. If you create a spreadsheet and juggle with these numbers (fairly) you'll see that the differences don't amount to a hill of beans when you look at the TOTAL COST of keeping a typical car on the road for a year.

--- Bror Jace

adc100

Not that I am an Amsoil fan, but they have the confidence to warrant engine against lubrication related failures during extended drain intervals. Also with all of those quick lube changes-who knows -they might have forgot to put oil in one of those many changes. Now we are talking serious blowby.

Also: called Texaco to ask a question on Dex-Cool and then asked them if Havoline was a PAO The guy said it was a PAO and Ester and not a hydrocracked petroleum oil.

sinjin_dog

Reading the post, it seems like the Mobile 1 had some changes(their formula) in recent days. Can you guys share more details how the Mobile1 formula has changed (if changed at all from their Tri-Syn)?
I would try Red Line or Amsoil if they are more readily available like Mobile1.
Thanks again.

adc100

At least if you believe the 1-800-askmobil guy. I do believe him. The consumer syn market is a very small market to begin with and for Mobil their business is mainly commercial and industrial applications. That has increased with the merger with Exxon who had the largest industrial number of accounts before the merger. I don't really see any incentive for them to dilute their product and also consider they are the worlds largest maker of PAO's. So for now steady as she goes.

sinjin_dog

Also, just wanted to let you know that when I was working with US AirForce, they used Mobile 1 Syn for their C-130 engines. They always carried about two dozen cases of Mobile 1 in their C-130 Hercules at the tail cargo section.
This is not just one C-130 but all the C-130's I've seen did carry spare cases of Mobile1 Syn.
Thanks

ygriega

Your #2596 was a load of garbage. I seem to always find myself at odds with a fellow Townhall-er, but as a 30-plus year aviation professional
(pilot/marketing) I can assure our readers that the Allison T-56-A turboprop engine in the Lockheed C-130 was NEVER lubricated with Mobil 1.
Puh-leeze. Aeroshell 500, Exxon 2380, maybe. But
automotive oil??? Maybe they were just transporting it for the Hummers and trucks. Don't-cha think? Huh?
Dan

ruking1

#2597
Actually the operative procedure is: does the Mobil One meet the milspec for C-130 engine oil operations?

You can get in deep kim chee if you use non mil spec approved materials, especially for such a critical function.

ygriega

Of course it doesn't. It may meet mil-spec for automotive, but not aviation. I have over 13,000
hours pilot-in-command time in various fixed-wing
and rotor-winged aircraft. We don't use Mobil One. Okay? I use it in my Fords. And if I'm
wrong, show me some documentation to the contrary.
Show me where the U.S. Air Force--I'm a former member '68-'72--uses Mobil One in any aircraft.
Ridiculous! So show me, Mr. Know-it-All.
Dan

ruking1

#2599

"Of course it doesn't. It may meet mil-spec for automotive, but not aviation. I have over 13,000
hours pilot-in-command time in various fixed-wing
and rotor-winged aircraft. We don't use Mobil One. Okay? I use it in my Fords. And if I'm
wrong, show me some documentation to the contrary.
Show me where the U.S. Air Force--I'm a former member '68-'72--uses Mobil One in any aircraft.
Ridiculous! So show me, Mr. Know-it-All.
Dan "

Then you have your answer then eh tough guy?

former member 1974-1979 usaf
B-52 bomber, kc 135 maint. F-4e fighter aircraft maint ems/mms/ags/ oms/EOD
transient alert/job control officer. But then you know what all that stuff means, don't you?

Translation: while you were busy drinking beer at the O club, My crew's were doing the work you claim that YOU did!