Does SOA really care if a dealer is gouging customers on WRXs? Well, if someone from the company is monitoring this site, add West Houston Subaru to your list - they are adding $2K to the MSRP of all WRXs, last time I checked.
Ive got to remember not to hit the enter key after I key in the title. Just wanted to thank everyone for their input. I went on Autobytel and got a response from a dealer in winter park, so we'll see how it goes. Anyone have a time frame on orders?
I have never owned a Subaru and have never really studied them. How bout some feedback as to reliability from subie lovers. The reliability factor scared me on some of my listed cars (BMW, Audi). I don't care how good the service is, I don't like spending time drinking bad coffee and watching Jerry Springer on a 13 inch TV while my car is being worked on.
I know I'm a little weird, but the WRX design has me. I really like the retro kind of interior design and I love the thought of some gutsy performance. I will also need a refresher as to the turbo as I have not owned one since my '78 saab (don't want to relive that nightmare).
Thanx for the information. Have relatives over there, so may give me a good excuse to go. Thanx for the links also. Are all subee owners as nice as you guys?
But probably not for the reasons you might think at first.
The H6, as installed, weighs 100 lbs more than the 2.5L H4. It is a mere 3/4" longer than the 2.5 motor. (Yep, three quarters of an inch!) The 2.5L H4 is available in non-WRX Imprezas. Turbochargers, intercoolers, and other associated hardware do indeed have some weight, so the turbo cars might already be heavier than the non-turbo cars due solely to engine-related factors.
Add all that stuff together and you could come to the conclusion that an H6 Impreza is not terribly far-fetched, technically. The big holdup tends to be getting the engines certified in the US. Getting the H6 certified in the Legacy does not automatically mean it is certified in the Impreza. Also, manufacture of the H6 is ramping up; they're still selling every H6 they can build by putting them in Outbacks. They have 2.5L normally aspirated and 2.0L turbo motors available for the Impreza; my guess would be that there is little to be gained, sales-wise, by adding another motor to the Impreza lineup.
Add all of *that* up, and you probably get a bit closer to the reason that an H6 Impreza is unlikely.
Consumer report rated both Forester and Legacy as "recommended". 2002 Impreza is too new to have reliability result. But if you look at their "reliable used cars" list, every Impreza is on it back up to 1993. I say that's better track record than even Integra!
Well, I've been mostly happy, reliability-wise, with my '97 Legacy 2.5GT 5-spd sedan. I've had it for just over four years and have 102,000 miles on it. Until a month ago the only thing I've had to fix (other than routine maintenance) is the alternator at 50,000 miles. Funny thing ... I just received a service notice from Subaru on the alternator so I may be able to get my money back on that one!
However, a month ago when I was about to sell the GT it started to overheat. Without letting it pin the needle on "HOT," I took it to a mechanic. The cooling system was pretty gummed up ... I'm not sure why and neither is the mechanic. I've always had all my routine maintenance performed on time, including coolant flushes every 30,000 miles. Well, I had the water pump, thermostat, and even radiator replaced (at a cost of over $1,000) and the damn thing still overheated. At this point I wasn't too happy.
Since I needed to sell the car I decided to have the engine torn down to see if the head gaskets, heads, or block were cracked. In the end it turned out to be a blow head gasket for another $1,200. From everyone I've spoken to about the blown head gasket, they say that they are extremely rare in a Subaru. It really bothers me that I had to spend this much money on my car before selling it (anyone want to buy it?), but I've still been pretty happy with the car. Things are bound to go wrong with 102,000 miles on it ... I just wish it waited until 150,000 miles so I didn't have to pay for it!
In the end, I am still considering a WRX. I really wish they would come out with a high-horsepower Legacy GT ... I'd like the extra room.
Head gasket failures unfortunately are not unusual on a Subaru EJ series engine.
Let me show you. (trying to make this understandable for all, sorry if it's overly simplistic for fellow gearheads out there)
(image copyright Cobb Tuning used with permission)
That's the engine block. Look at the two cylinders in the middle, that's where the pistons are. See the void area around the cylinders? Coolant occupies that space.
Now let's look at the SOHC cylinder head. (a 97 legacy GT is DOHC but the point I'm about to make is still valid, trust me)
the black things are the combustion chambers, dirty from carbon buildup. see the holes in the cylinder head around the combustion chamber? there are 5 large ones of various shapes around each combustion chamber. these holes match up with holes in the head gasket... but notice how different they are from the large void area in the block?
what happens is that the head gasket is the barrier between the combustion gasses and the coolant passages. the head gasket is pretty thin, but at combustion pressures (especially at high RPM) it's enough to put a lot of stress on the head gasket. the way they usually fail is that the head gasket allows combustion gasses to move past it and into the block. this forces an air bubble into the block and coolant out. the coolant that remains can't circulate properly due to the air bubbles, and very soon the engine is overheating.
My '99 Impreza 2.5RS is doing this very thing right now, and in the next few weeks I'm going to yank the engine to replace the head gaskets.
Now why the block doesn't match up with the holes in the gasket and cylinder head? That would eliminate this problem, right? Well, it would also greatly reduce the volume of coolant that could be in the engine block, which require a bigger radiator and more coolant flow (i.e. high water pump pressure) to achieve similar results.
Colin, excellent post! Help me out a bit more, if you will: are you saying that the reason the gasket fails is that the coolant holes in the head are not precisely the same shape as the coolant jackets in the block? Is the EJ series the new SOHC 2.5 liter motor?
My experience with routine head gasket failures is primarily twofold.
1) Triumph TR7's. Aluminum heads mated to cast iron blocks; different rates of expansion, hence causing the head gasket to do a lot of extra work keeping things sealed up. I worked at a dealership at the time. We actually fixed that one, pretty much permanently, by spraying the gaskets with aerosol Copperkote before putting them back together.
2) Early Subies. The gasket would continue to fail even after the car was shut off. The pressure in the cooling system would force coolant into the combustion chamber; when the owner tried to start the car again, it would not even turn over, because water does not compress like air! Pretty wild. We never did anything exceptional to "fix" those, just put a new gasket in. We didn't get repeat failures either, which made me wonder about the consistency of their production process. (Repeat: this was on early Subies, late 1970's and early 80's, NOT current cars.)
I also had two head gasket failures on my Peugeot, both of which turned out to be head failures instead; a crack in the head created a bypass around the gasket. The symptoms look exactly the same. The additional pressure and heat from turbocharging was the cause of the cracks; they took 50,000 miles or so to appear.
are you saying that the reason the gasket fails is that the coolant holes in the head are not precisely the same shape as the coolant jackets in the block? Is the EJ series the new SOHC 2.5 liter motor?
Yep, look at the block. The coolant passage is huge-- the whole area around the cylinder walls. This is an open deck design of course.
A 2.5L DOHC is the same way, the coolant passage in the block looks the same way but the heads are a bit different...
So, this situation is likely to become a problem with the turbocharged 2.0 engine in the WRX? In BMWs, special head gaskets with "cutting rings" are available, and used with Raceware high strength fasteners, the blown head gasket phenomenon can be almost completely eliminated.
Well, maybe not at the very lowest low end, but unless you're towing things with your sports car it might not make much difference. Subaru quotes 210 ft-lb at 4400rpm for the H6 Subaru quotes 217 ft-lb at 4000rpm for the 2L turbo. (Not to mention 212Hp @ 6000rpm for the H6 is lower than the 227@6000 for the 2 Litre turbo:)
I haven't found the torque curve for the H6, but the curve in the wrx glossy brochure that none of the dealers seem to have (you can request on Subaru's website that one be mailed to you) shows a pretty wide, flat torque curve... Mmmmaybe only about ~110 ft-lbs at 1000rpm, ~150 @2000, ~200@3000
And if what happened to the Mitsu Eclipse is any indication, when they went from the 2L 210Hp turbo to the 205Hp V6, you wouldn't think it would change much but it transformed it from a six and a half second 0-60 machine into a low 7's. That big, flat turbo torque curve really makes a big acceleration difference.
Just some random thoughts.
P.S. I forgot to mention in my earlier post that I saw Steven's Creek Subaru last weekend had some WRX's in and the last two of six they had received had a $3000 over MSRP markup. At least I got to kick the tires and sit in the car if not drive it. I'm 6'2" and have found some cars difficult to sit in, but the impreza was nice and roomy (at least in the driver's seat, anyway The crank handle to raise and lower the seat was kind of cool, too. The seat bolsters are fairly narrow which I thought was supportive, but wider people might have issues with them.
Scott, I haven't seen the heads on a WRX but the block is the same... the solution is closing the deck or o-ringing the block (2 different solutions). That's for hardcore, heavily modified applications. Normal end-users just replace the head gaskets when they fail.
I wouldn't try stronger fasteners-- cylinder head bolts-- on the EJ series because it's all aluminum and already has stupendously high torque specs. I doubt more is safe without warping the head or block... if it was I bet the FHI engineers would spec more!
I'm guessing the response you got from Winter Park is the same Bill Bryan Subaru where I was fortunate enough to get a brief test drive (of ~9 cars initially delivered, they had 2 sedans unsold, but neither of them was silver, otherwise I might have driven one home!). I spoke with a sales guy named Sam and said I'd give him $500 over invoice for a car delivered in May -- he said he'd "float it with his manager". I was visiting from out of town, had to go.... e-mailed him, but didn't hear back so I ordered from Van Bortel in Rochester (Road Trip!!). So, not sure how much they'd deal, but worth working on it.
FYI, anyone considering Van Bortel should take a look at her bio on the www.vanbortelsubaru.com Web site. (Fired from her job by the local Mercedes shop, Kitty triumphs over adversity, kicks [non-permissible content removed], takes names, et cetera. Vengeance is Kitty's!) What a hoot.
I've had my MY97 Impreza Outback Sport for 4.5 yrs. I put 101,000 miles on it and the only thing that I had problem with was the spark plug cable. Haven't noticed any overheating problem, yet. But then again, I've only rev'ed it above 4000 rpm a handful of times. Oh ... still on it's original set of brakes due to mostly freeway driving. Thumbs up on Subie reliability!
I don't want to replace my head gasket occassionally. Unless it is an easy job (it sounds hard since the cylinders are not facing up).
But I'd be willing to do some minor (easy) engine work if there is a good fix for this that will eliminate the need to fix it ever again.
Should I still buy the WRX? I really hope Subaru has uprated the gaskets so this doesn't happen in the new car. I'd like to make a reliable 260HP or so.
Anybody have any idea as to who will be the first supplier of chips, exhaust mod etc. for our WRX's ? Finding only Euro sources during searches is disappointing.
the wrx has three cats right. it is also a ulev. would you still be able to pass emisions if you removed one of those cats. it seems that it could still pass with two, maybe just not as a ulev
This is what's known as a 'plus one' upgrade. The idea is to keep the overall diameter the same by reducing the tire's sidewall height by 1/2". For example switching from a 205/55R16 to a 215/45R17, where 55 and 45 indicate the sidewall height as a percentage of tire section width. 55% of 205mm is 112.75mm, while 45% of 215mm is 96.75mm, a diiference of 16mm. 16mm is 0.63" (close to 1/2"). Therefore the diameter would be approx. the same, about 1/4" less than stock, so speedometer error would be minimal (and any error would be positive, helping to keep you out of trouble).
about the head gaskets! Subaru makes a fine product and unless you're driving the WRX as if you're the front runner in a world rally race 9/10's of the time you shouldn't come close to experiencing any head gasket failure! We don't need needless hysteria here folks.
I love the WRX but unfortunately my budget can't stretch that far especially in line of alot of posts citing markups over MSRP. But the 2.5RS or TS I can do... :-)
Was wondering, so the 2.5RS is essentially a non-turbo WRX with all the good suspension stuff and rims but minus WRX specific stuff like spot lights, hood scoop and Momo steering right? And the TS doesn't have WRX spec suspension? Are there any other big differences? With that in mind, what are the dealers' policies on the RS/TS then? Are they more willing to deal? Do I have to order if I am looking to buy this summer? BTW also considering a Legacy GT 5sp and Legacy GT wagon 5 sp.
Any recommendations for a great and understanding dealer in west Michigan area? Also, where can I find cool STi trinkets and cool add-ons for my future scooby purchase?
Also, I was wondering would the Legacy GT sedan or wagon in all its perceived rarity have a worse resale 1-2 years down the road relative to the new 2.5 RS/TS or even the WRX?
Is S of A contemplating an STi version of the WRX anytime soon? Or do we have to wait for the EVO to spur SoA on?
My husband and I took our '97 Legacy Outback to our dealership to have the alternator replaced. To pass the time while we were waiting, we asked our regular salesperson if we could drive the WRX - just to check out the rumors. Anyway, we ended up using our home equity loan to buy the only available WRX at the dealership. I'm still breaking it in, so haven't pushed the limits, but even at "normal" driving speeds, it is great.
I would appreciate any tips about the specifics of the intercooled turbo. Anything to help me differentiate the normal quirks from red flag signals. I have a good knowledge of German cars, but we have only owned Japanese cars (Mitsubishi and Subaru) since 1994.
Thanks in advance for any feedback.
Also, check out the Impreza WRX website. They have an option for ordering the WRX. I didn't get a chance to try it, but it might help decrease the severity of price gouging. Our dealership (Stohlman VW/Subaru in Arlington, VA) actually took $500 off the sticker price - but we also settled for an automatic.
I took a test drive of a wrx today and now I am wondering why anyone would want a Celica GTS, Prelude or Integra type R. Especially when considering two of them cost more.
An earlier post recommended B/S RE730's. I checked out these tires at the Tire Rack. They look very good but it occured to me that the Tire Rack may be pushing them because Discount Tire Direct doesn't sell Bridgestone tires.
Does anyone have a recommendation for an alternative to the RE730's? I currently run Dunlop SP8000's on my Nissan NX2000. I've been very happy with them, and from the comments at the Tire Rack site the RE730's are even better.
BTW, have you checked out www.i-club.com the official North American Subaru Owners web site? Check the forums there, theres alot more subie-related info and you might find out more than you wanted to know there
Ill be sure to check out the site. Cheers. btw I replied to you on the Legacy forum. Saw your response on the WRX vs. Competitors site too. I think we are on the same page on a lot of things. :-)
It wasn't a warning, it was a statement of fact-- there is a whole lot of information in the message forum at www.i-club.com. Plus it's content-searchable unlike Edmunds.
so i have always been into vws..but i am really giving the wrx a look..although i cant find one in the seattle area to test drive yet..alot of performance for 24k..nice 0-60 times although i was hoping for low 14 second 1/4 miles..but 14.6-14.7 is still good..right on par with a type r..but alot of the posts of new owners of the wrx are about the check engine lights that wont seem to go away..im a little unsure if subaru has this car sorted out..as its so new over here in the us..with our different safety/emissions requirments..i was waiting for the 2002 gti 1.8t..but not sure about the wrx..but would like to test drive one..
i like the look of the larger rally wing..it kinda completes the back-end and makes it look better..or at least as far as just the factory style wing..i still need to drive one..i know its not going to be nice like an a4..but should be fast..although i dont want a turbo headache that subaru cant figure out..well see..i just might stick to the gti for 2002..with chip about 200hp and 30 more lbs of torque than the wrx..hmmm
The WRX is the best performance car you can get for under $30K, without question. I finally sat in one, must say very impressed. The dealer won't allow test drives on the WRX, due to engine break-in, and the turbo.
The only thing I dislike are the head lamps. I found a link in this thread that has the Rally inspired design. I was wondering if I could easily swap them with out problems. I am concerned about compatibility and legalities.
Shaun: FYI, Subaru has been building the 2.0 L w/turbo for a few years now in other markets. There is no "sorting out" required. There are problems in all makes of cars w/some of their oxygen sensors. The two things that are usually a cause of it are: 1) Person forgets to turn gas cap at least 3 full times (3 clicks), or 2) There is a bad batch of sensors from supplier. It is usually not a precursor to a problematic vehicle.
I would be much more concerned w/buying a VW. They tend to have niggling things that go wrong after a couple of years. Nothing major but aggravating none the less. The reliability rating for Subaru and VW tend to reveal same.
Stephen (current 00'OB Ltd owner, soon to be WRX wagon owner)
What a car! Over the weekend I test drove a stick with the standard 16 inch tires. I knew I was in for a treat when the salesman told me to "beat the hell out of it" on the test drive. I was surprised that the pull in the engine was constant, not like the pull in other turbo cars (Talon TSI, Buick GN). Instead of the turbo gradually kicking in, it was across the whole powerband. It actually felt like I was driving a supercharged car instead. I was only dissapointed by one thing. The guy told me to drive it hard into a turn and when I did it felt like the whole car broke loose until I let off the gas. A friend of mine has a Talon TSI that makes you feel like your brain is falling out your ear in tight turns. No clue why the WRX broke loose going into a mild turn at 45mph. Here's my big question. I've stopped at two different dealers and got two different stories and would like to know what you've heard/experienced: sunroof/moonroof, yes or no? One dealer said they can put one in and do a 3yr warantee on it (but the salemsan didn't know squat about the car). The other dealer said that the way the roof is built (reinforced for safety) you can't do it without structurally hosing the car. I'm going to get one over the summer, but would REALLY like to get a moonroof in it (moonroof=even more fun factor). Thanks in advance for any feedback on the roofs.
ps If a dealer says you can't test drive one, laugh in his face and hit another dealer. Each dealer should have at least one "mule" they are letting the public beat up.
I picked up my WRX on friday, I would have posted sooner, but my WRX wont let me at the computer.
The car is insanely fun to drive, even in it's break-in period. Although, I have had to stretch it just a tad on a couple occasions, I have pretty much stuck under the 4000rpm suggested break-in limit.
Out of first gear, the acceleration is pretty even. But as soon as you hit 3k, 4k comes in a blink. I am literally dying to get my first 3000 miles over with so I can get some serious driving done. Any of you want to email me a couple thousand miles so I can put them on my odometer and get to the 3500rpm launches?
The handling of this car is superb, although I am looking forward to stiffening the suspension a bit and throwing some 17" wheels and sticky rubber on it. The dealer option for the 17" bbs wheels didn't really strike me as much of a "deal" (US$3000 for the wheels alone) so I will be keeping my eyes out for a good set of aftermarket parts.
Turns are where the fun is during the break-in period. The reviews are all right, the car sticks like glue, and give a sense of surefootedness I have not ever experienced (I was mostly a rear-wheel drive sports car owner). To my delight, oversteer is beautifully manageable and easily had. The first time I went flying through a 15mph steep left at 45mph and loosened the tail, a smile creeped across my face that was bigger than the smile I had when I kissed my first girlfriend.
Everytime I downshift and punch out of a tight curve, I feel like it is my birthday.
No it isn't the fastest car in the world, but it is just plain sporting fun.
As for Crash_68s experience in a turn, I don't know what to say. Late turning or compensating for the understeer that usually accomodates a FWD car might be to blame. I don't mean to criticize you as a driver, it is just that I think the WRX is best treated as a rear wheel drive car as far as handling is considered. Try driving it again with that in mind, and when you do break the back end loose, revel in the quick recovery as the WRX's front feet yank you straight again.
I haven't owned a stable of sports cars over the years, but the WRX reminds me of the best of all of them. Tight turning like my '91 CRX Si, power reminescent of my modded '82 Mustang GT, handling like my '83 Mazda RX-7 GSX, and the happy go lucky attitude of my '80 Celica ST.
Aside from my Mustang, this is the first sports car I have owned that didn't come with a sunroof. After reading about the cage improvements, and feeling the stability of the car through a turn, I think I am okay with that decision. Besides, isn't it agaisnt SCCA rules to rally a car that doesn't have a hardtop?
If any of you near st. louis want to ride in a WRX before you buy, my car said it would let you. Of course, nobody else can drive it until I hit 3000 miles, but after that it might be negotiable.
barresa62..i fully understand the build history of the 2 liter turbo from subaru..what i am saying is just a refelection from www.i-club.com you can see for yourself..if you choose too..sure if its just a o2 sensor..etc..then why cant all of the dealers that they are speaking about fix it..hmmm..i know the build quality has improved greatly just like it has for volkswagon..i remember driving new subarus in the late 80s..even new they sounded like the motor could fall out at any moment. both vw and subaru have come along way since then..im just alot more concerned about a new turbo model coming into the states..regardless if it was produced for years before..its still set-up different for us specs..
if it is just a faulty o2 sensor..thats great..but i will watch from the sidelines..and see how it goes..for the most part vws have rattle problems..and i think for the most part they are well built and hold up well..but it is time for them to step up and improve the waranty.
the biggest problem for me and the wrx is the looks..i like the looks of the 2.5 rs alot better..but it dosent have the turbo..so that dosent work for me..
IMO, I would agree with the second dealer. With an aftermarket moon/sunroof, they're just cutting a hole in the roof. Whereas a factory sunroof would be built. The Foresters with moonroof's have a wider rear track. They didn't just cut a hole in the roof. Dennis
1.) although i was hoping for low 14 second 1/4 miles..but 14.6-14.7 is still good..right on par with a type r Chances are you couldn't pull off the best time out of this car anyway. If you want good 1/4 mile times, get a old mustang or camaro and check out their boards.
..im a little unsure if subaru has this car sorted out..as its so new over here in the us..with our different safety/emissions requirments Emissions devices are only old technology designed to decrease pollutants at the expense of power, the manufacturers have been doing this for 30 years+. Big deal.
..i was waiting for the 2002 gti 1.8t..but not sure about the wrx..but would like to test drive one.. Keep waiting. Don't even drive a wrx. We don't need any VW pukes in a WRX anyway.
..i still need to drive one..i know its not going to be nice like an a4..but should be fast What's with you wanting to compare this to VW products? You want to feel a nice A4 ride, buy an A4. There is no similarity.
..although i dont want a turbo headache that subaru cant figure out..well see.. You don't give the title of 'Car of the Decade' to a vehicle that gives you a headache. Look through CAR magazine of GB once in a while. Or any australian publications.
i just might stick to the gti for 2002..with chip about 200hp and 30 more lbs of torque than the wrx..hmmm Don't forget to mention the chip removes the flat VW torque curve, making the engine output lower to begin and spike uptop. 'turbo headache' as you call it.
..regardless if it was produced for years before. Regardless if it was produced before?? Suddenly solid engineering history means nothing? Does that apply all across the board? or only to Subaru? Maybe it applies to Audis/VWs too? Hell, I got a buddy of mine who used the chip and his A4 quattro is down with $1800+ in repairs, and another who's killed 5 Audis in as many years, we call him the Transmission Terminator, but he still swears by Audis. Big deal. You need to seriously get your head (out of your) together, and quit whining about the WRX when you know you want an Audi/VW whatever. And maybe some logic/reasoning skills would be of some use.
I must say that your review of the car is right on the mark. The feeling of the cars grip on the road is better than anything I've driven, except maybe for the 911 I onced managed to "borrow" for a few hours. I am expecialy pleased with the feal and behavior of the transmision, it practicaly feel the engine through it. The shifts are smooth and precise!
Uniballer, if you aren't already a member you might look on the iClub and see what kind of wheels others are going with. No doubt you can do better than $3000 without tires for the optional forged BBS wheels though...
Crash68's experience is undoubtedly the LOW limits of the stock Potenza RE92 tire. They suck. If you haven't found their limit uniballer, then you haven't begun to have fun yet.
I live in NYC, where insurance rates are criminally high anyway. GEICO charges no more for my WRX than they did for my 99 Maxima. When I spoke to them on the phone, they were working off their own figures for the 2001 RS model.
I think the rear end looks more like the Infiniti I30 than any Kia.
And the front, especially when the lights are on, looks more like the E-class. The new Neon's lights are kind of cross-eyed, coming inward at the bottom, and look quite different than the WRX. Also, the entire oval lights up.
Comments
I have never owned a Subaru and have never really studied them. How bout some feedback as to reliability from subie lovers. The reliability factor scared me on some of my listed cars (BMW, Audi). I don't care how good the service is, I don't like spending time drinking bad coffee and watching Jerry Springer on a 13 inch TV while my car is being worked on.
I know I'm a little weird, but the WRX design has me. I really like the retro kind of interior design and I love the thought of some gutsy performance. I will also need a refresher as to the turbo as I have not owned one since my '78 saab (don't want to relive that nightmare).
See ya
breez
see ya
Breez
The H6, as installed, weighs 100 lbs more than the 2.5L H4. It is a mere 3/4" longer than the 2.5 motor. (Yep, three quarters of an inch!) The 2.5L H4 is available in non-WRX Imprezas. Turbochargers, intercoolers, and other associated hardware do indeed have some weight, so the turbo cars might already be heavier than the non-turbo cars due solely to engine-related factors.
Add all that stuff together and you could come to the conclusion that an H6 Impreza is not terribly far-fetched, technically. The big holdup tends to be getting the engines certified in the US. Getting the H6 certified in the Legacy does not automatically mean it is certified in the Impreza. Also, manufacture of the H6 is ramping up; they're still selling every H6 they can build by putting them in Outbacks. They have 2.5L normally aspirated and 2.0L turbo motors available for the Impreza; my guess would be that there is little to be gained, sales-wise, by adding another motor to the Impreza lineup.
Add all of *that* up, and you probably get a bit closer to the reason that an H6 Impreza is unlikely.
My two cents,
-wdb
I believe Consumer Reports rates EVERY Subaru as a "Best Bet" or whatever they call it.
However, a month ago when I was about to sell the GT it started to overheat. Without letting it pin the needle on "HOT," I took it to a mechanic. The cooling system was pretty gummed up ... I'm not sure why and neither is the mechanic. I've always had all my routine maintenance performed on time, including coolant flushes every 30,000 miles. Well, I had the water pump, thermostat, and even radiator replaced (at a cost of over $1,000) and the damn thing still overheated. At this point I wasn't too happy.
Since I needed to sell the car I decided to have the engine torn down to see if the head gaskets, heads, or block were cracked. In the end it turned out to be a blow head gasket for another $1,200. From everyone I've spoken to about the blown head gasket, they say that they are extremely rare in a Subaru. It really bothers me that I had to spend this much money on my car before selling it (anyone want to buy it?), but I've still been pretty happy with the car. Things are bound to go wrong with 102,000 miles on it ... I just wish it waited until 150,000 miles so I didn't have to pay for it!
In the end, I am still considering a WRX. I really wish they would come out with a high-horsepower Legacy GT ... I'd like the extra room.
Let me show you. (trying to make this understandable for all, sorry if it's overly simplistic for fellow gearheads out there)
(image copyright Cobb Tuning used with permission)
That's the engine block. Look at the two cylinders in the middle, that's where the pistons are. See the void area around the cylinders? Coolant occupies that space.
Now let's look at the SOHC cylinder head. (a 97 legacy GT is DOHC but the point I'm about to make is still valid, trust me)
the black things are the combustion chambers, dirty from carbon buildup. see the holes in the cylinder head around the combustion chamber? there are 5 large ones of various shapes around each combustion chamber. these holes match up with holes in the head gasket... but notice how different they are from the large void area in the block?
what happens is that the head gasket is the barrier between the combustion gasses and the coolant passages. the head gasket is pretty thin, but at combustion pressures (especially at high RPM) it's enough to put a lot of stress on the head gasket. the way they usually fail is that the head gasket allows combustion gasses to move past it and into the block. this forces an air bubble into the block and coolant out. the coolant that remains can't circulate properly due to the air bubbles, and very soon the engine is overheating.
My '99 Impreza 2.5RS is doing this very thing right now, and in the next few weeks I'm going to yank the engine to replace the head gaskets.
Now why the block doesn't match up with the holes in the gasket and cylinder head? That would eliminate this problem, right? Well, it would also greatly reduce the volume of coolant that could be in the engine block, which require a bigger radiator and more coolant flow (i.e. high water pump pressure) to achieve similar results.
-Colin
My experience with routine head gasket failures is primarily twofold.
1) Triumph TR7's. Aluminum heads mated to cast iron blocks; different rates of expansion, hence causing the head gasket to do a lot of extra work keeping things sealed up. I worked at a dealership at the time. We actually fixed that one, pretty much permanently, by spraying the gaskets with aerosol Copperkote before putting them back together.
2) Early Subies. The gasket would continue to fail even after the car was shut off. The pressure in the cooling system would force coolant into the combustion chamber; when the owner tried to start the car again, it would not even turn over, because water does not compress like air! Pretty wild. We never did anything exceptional to "fix" those, just put a new gasket in. We didn't get repeat failures either, which made me wonder about the consistency of their production process. (Repeat: this was on early Subies, late 1970's and early 80's, NOT current cars.)
I also had two head gasket failures on my Peugeot, both of which turned out to be head failures instead; a crack in the head created a bypass around the gasket. The symptoms look exactly the same. The additional pressure and heat from turbocharging was the cause of the cracks; they took 50,000 miles or so to appear.
Cheers,
-wdb
Yep, look at the block. The coolant passage is huge-- the whole area around the cylinder walls. This is an open deck design of course.
A 2.5L DOHC is the same way, the coolant passage in the block looks the same way but the heads are a bit different...
The result is the same.
-Colin
Subaru quotes 210 ft-lb at 4400rpm for the H6
Subaru quotes 217 ft-lb at 4000rpm for the 2L turbo.
(Not to mention 212Hp @ 6000rpm for the H6 is lower than the 227@6000 for the 2 Litre turbo:)
I haven't found the torque curve for the H6, but the curve in the wrx glossy brochure that none of the dealers seem to have (you can request on Subaru's website that one be mailed to you) shows a pretty wide, flat torque curve... Mmmmaybe only about ~110 ft-lbs at 1000rpm,
~150 @2000, ~200@3000
And if what happened to the Mitsu Eclipse is any indication, when they went from the 2L 210Hp turbo to the 205Hp V6, you wouldn't think it would change much but it transformed it from a six and a half second 0-60 machine into a low 7's. That big, flat turbo torque curve really makes a big acceleration difference.
Just some random thoughts.
P.S. I forgot to mention in my earlier post that I saw Steven's Creek Subaru last weekend had some WRX's in and the last two of six they had received had a $3000 over MSRP markup.
At least I got to kick the tires and sit in the car if not drive it. I'm 6'2" and have found some cars difficult to sit in, but the impreza was nice and roomy (at least in the driver's seat, anyway The crank handle to raise and lower the seat was kind of cool, too. The seat bolsters are fairly narrow which I thought was supportive, but wider people might have issues with them.
Thanks.
I wouldn't try stronger fasteners-- cylinder head bolts-- on the EJ series because it's all aluminum and already has stupendously high torque specs. I doubt more is safe without warping the head or block... if it was I bet the FHI engineers would spec more!
-Colin
FYI, anyone considering Van Bortel should take a look at her bio on the www.vanbortelsubaru.com Web site. (Fired from her job by the local Mercedes shop, Kitty triumphs over adversity, kicks [non-permissible content removed], takes names, et cetera. Vengeance is Kitty's!) What a hoot.
BDT
But I'd be willing to do some minor (easy) engine work if there is a good fix for this that will eliminate the need to fix it ever again.
Should I still buy the WRX? I really hope Subaru has uprated the gaskets so this doesn't happen in the new car. I'd like to make a reliable 260HP or so.
Buy the new WRX and enjoy folks!!
Stephen
Was wondering, so the 2.5RS is essentially a non-turbo WRX with all the good suspension stuff and rims but minus WRX specific stuff like spot lights, hood scoop and Momo steering right? And the TS doesn't have WRX spec suspension? Are there any other big differences? With that in mind, what are the dealers' policies on the RS/TS then? Are they more willing to deal? Do I have to order if I am looking to buy this summer? BTW also considering a Legacy GT 5sp and Legacy GT wagon 5 sp.
Any recommendations for a great and understanding dealer in west Michigan area? Also, where can I find cool STi trinkets and cool add-ons for my future scooby purchase?
Appreciate your insights...thanks in advance.
dc_75
Is S of A contemplating an STi version of the WRX anytime soon? Or do we have to wait for the EVO to spur SoA on?
WRX rocks!
dc_75
I would appreciate any tips about the specifics of the intercooled turbo. Anything to help me differentiate the normal quirks from red flag signals. I have a good knowledge of German cars, but we have only owned Japanese cars (Mitsubishi and Subaru) since 1994.
Thanks in advance for any feedback.
Also, check out the Impreza WRX website. They have an option for ordering the WRX. I didn't get a chance to try it, but it might help decrease the severity of price gouging. Our dealership (Stohlman VW/Subaru in Arlington, VA) actually took $500 off the sticker price - but we also settled for an automatic.
Does anyone have a recommendation for an alternative to the RE730's? I currently run Dunlop SP8000's on my Nissan NX2000. I've been very happy with them, and from the comments at the Tire Rack site the RE730's are even better.
Comments? Suggestions?
Check the forums there, theres alot more subie-related info and you might find out more than you wanted to know there
Are you trying to tell us anything about subaru that we should know? Sounded like a warning in your #1031 post.
jbreez1
-Colin
Here is a link to the manufacturer that has aftermarket conversion kits.
http://www.grahamgoode.com/subaru/products/newage.htm
The only thing I dislike are the head lamps. I found a link in this thread that has the Rally inspired design. I was wondering if I could easily swap them with out problems. I am concerned about compatibility and legalities.
Anyone know??
I would be much more concerned w/buying a VW. They tend to have niggling things that go wrong after a couple of years. Nothing major but aggravating none the less. The reliability rating for Subaru and VW tend to reveal same.
Stephen
(current 00'OB Ltd owner, soon to be WRX wagon owner)
I was only dissapointed by one thing. The guy told me to drive it hard into a turn and when I did it felt like the whole car broke loose until I let off the gas. A friend of mine has a Talon TSI that makes you feel like your brain is falling out your ear in tight turns. No clue why the WRX broke loose going into a mild turn at 45mph.
Here's my big question. I've stopped at two different dealers and got two different stories and would like to know what you've heard/experienced: sunroof/moonroof, yes or no?
One dealer said they can put one in and do a 3yr warantee on it (but the salemsan didn't know squat about the car). The other dealer said that the way the roof is built (reinforced for safety) you can't do it without structurally hosing the car. I'm going to get one over the summer, but would REALLY like to get a moonroof in it (moonroof=even more fun factor).
Thanks in advance for any feedback on the roofs.
ps If a dealer says you can't test drive one, laugh in his face and hit another dealer. Each dealer should have at least one "mule" they are letting the public beat up.
The car is insanely fun to drive, even in it's break-in period. Although, I have had to stretch it just a tad on a couple occasions, I have pretty much stuck under the 4000rpm suggested break-in limit.
Out of first gear, the acceleration is pretty even. But as soon as you hit 3k, 4k comes in a blink. I am literally dying to get my first 3000 miles over with so I can get some serious driving done. Any of you want to email me a couple thousand miles so I can put them on my odometer and get to the 3500rpm launches?
The handling of this car is superb, although I am looking forward to stiffening the suspension a bit and throwing some 17" wheels and sticky rubber on it. The dealer option for the 17" bbs wheels didn't really strike me as much of a "deal" (US$3000 for the wheels alone) so I will be keeping my eyes out for a good set of aftermarket parts.
Turns are where the fun is during the break-in period. The reviews are all right, the car sticks like glue, and give a sense of surefootedness I have not ever experienced (I was mostly a rear-wheel drive sports car owner). To my delight, oversteer is beautifully manageable and easily had. The first time I went flying through a 15mph steep left at 45mph and loosened the tail, a smile creeped across my face that was bigger than the smile I had when I kissed my first girlfriend.
Everytime I downshift and punch out of a tight curve, I feel like it is my birthday.
No it isn't the fastest car in the world, but it is just plain sporting fun.
As for Crash_68s experience in a turn, I don't know what to say. Late turning or compensating for the understeer that usually accomodates a FWD car might be to blame. I don't mean to criticize you as a driver, it is just that I think the WRX is best treated as a rear wheel drive car as far as handling is considered. Try driving it again with that in mind, and when you do break the back end loose, revel in the quick recovery as the WRX's front feet yank you straight again.
I haven't owned a stable of sports cars over the years, but the WRX reminds me of the best of all of them. Tight turning like my '91 CRX Si, power reminescent of my modded '82 Mustang GT, handling like my '83 Mazda RX-7 GSX, and the happy go lucky attitude of my '80 Celica ST.
Aside from my Mustang, this is the first sports car I have owned that didn't come with a sunroof. After reading about the cage improvements, and feeling the stability of the car through a turn, I think I am okay with that decision. Besides, isn't it agaisnt SCCA rules to rally a car that doesn't have a hardtop?
If any of you near st. louis want to ride in a WRX before you buy, my car said it would let you. Of course, nobody else can drive it until I hit 3000 miles, but after that it might be negotiable.
-jp
if it is just a faulty o2 sensor..thats great..but i will watch from the sidelines..and see how it goes..for the most part vws have rattle problems..and i think for the most part they are well built and hold up well..but it is time for them to step up and improve the waranty.
the biggest problem for me and the wrx is the looks..i like the looks of the 2.5 rs alot better..but it dosent have the turbo..so that dosent work for me..
Dennis
Chances are you couldn't pull off the best time
out of this car anyway. If you want good 1/4
mile times, get a old mustang or camaro and
check out their boards.
..im a little unsure if subaru has this car sorted out..as its so new over here in the us..with our different safety/emissions requirments
Emissions devices are only old technology
designed to decrease pollutants at the expense
of power, the manufacturers have been doing
this for 30 years+. Big deal.
..i was waiting for the 2002 gti 1.8t..but not sure about the wrx..but would like to test drive one..
Keep waiting. Don't even drive a wrx. We don't
need any VW pukes in a WRX anyway.
..i still need to drive one..i know its not going to be nice like an a4..but should be fast
What's with you wanting to compare this to VW
products? You want to feel a nice A4 ride, buy
an A4. There is no similarity.
..although i dont want a turbo headache that subaru cant figure out..well see..
You don't give the title of 'Car of the Decade'
to a vehicle that gives you a headache. Look
through CAR magazine of GB once in a while. Or
any australian publications.
i just might stick to the gti for 2002..with chip about 200hp and 30 more lbs of torque than the wrx..hmmm
Don't forget to mention the chip removes the
flat VW torque curve, making the engine output
lower to begin and spike uptop. 'turbo
headache' as you call it.
..regardless if it was produced for years before.
Regardless if it was produced before??
Suddenly solid engineering history means
nothing? Does that apply all across the board?
or only to Subaru? Maybe it applies to
Audis/VWs too? Hell, I got a buddy of mine who
used the chip and his A4 quattro is down with
$1800+ in repairs, and another who's killed 5
Audis in as many years, we call him the
Transmission Terminator, but he still
swears by Audis. Big deal. You need to
seriously get your head (out of your) together,
and quit whining about the WRX when you know
you want an Audi/VW whatever. And maybe some
logic/reasoning skills would be of some use.
I must say that your review of the car is right on the mark. The feeling of the cars grip on the road is better than anything I've driven, except maybe for the 911 I onced managed to "borrow" for a few hours. I am expecialy pleased with the feal and behavior of the transmision, it practicaly feel the engine through it. The shifts are smooth and precise!
Crash68's experience is undoubtedly the LOW limits of the stock Potenza RE92 tire. They suck. If you haven't found their limit uniballer, then you haven't begun to have fun yet.
-Colin
jbreez1
And the front, especially when the lights are on, looks more like the E-class. The new Neon's lights are kind of cross-eyed, coming inward at the bottom, and look quite different than the WRX. Also, the entire oval lights up.
-juice